Author Topic: Going electric  (Read 9196 times)

Steph

  • Fast. Fast and bulbous. But fluffy.
Going electric
« on: 15 January, 2023, 12:18:24 pm »
As my health declines, arthritis biting horribly, I simply can't do what I always did. I am looking for a few suggestions re electric assistance. Me being me, I am looking for a bike that has luggage capacity. Nothing flash; just the usual fittings for a rack (and preferably front carriers as well. Hybrid or tourer style, of course. Price considerations also come into it, naturally!

My other question here is based on rail attitudes to e-scooters, one of which I saw turfed off a train at Newport for safety concerns (battery fire risk). Does anyone know, from experience or published rules, whether similar difficulties would attend touring with an electric bike?
Mae angen arnaf i byw, a fe fydda'i

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Going electric
« Reply #1 on: 15 January, 2023, 12:21:13 pm »
As my health declines, arthritis biting horribly, I simply can't do what I always did. I am looking for a few suggestions re electric assistance. Me being me, I am looking for a bike that has luggage capacity. Nothing flash; just the usual fittings for a rack (and preferably front carriers as well. Hybrid or tourer style, of course. Price considerations also come into it, naturally!

My other question here is based on rail attitudes to e-scooters, one of which I saw turfed off a train at Newport for safety concerns (battery fire risk). Does anyone know, from experience or published rules, whether similar difficulties would attend touring with an electric bike?

If you have one with a removable battery, remove it before you go into the station, stick it in your backpack. "No sir, no battery on this bike, it's just an ordinary bike".

I believe Laura Laker is writing a book about touring on an ebike and has taken hers all over the UK by public transport.

As for the bike, maybe a Dutch style Omafiets with e assist would be ideal? how far are you planning to go ?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

velosam

  • '.....you used to be an apple on a stick.'
Re: Going electric
« Reply #2 on: 15 January, 2023, 12:37:38 pm »
I have an e-bike and it's bloody heavy. Personally I would struggle to lift it anywhere loaded or otherwise.  It'd fine to use as a bike I.e not hauling it on and off trains etc.

There was a programme about a TV presenter doing the Camino trail on one. Range is the biggest issue but I reck8n in the summer, I have around a 100km on low assist.  Shame they don't do regen.

I know I am going left field but an electric Brompton would be best for multi modal touring (with spare batteries).

I reckon a secondhand Brompton with an aftermarket kit would be around £1400.

Also consider getting a bike without a top bar, makes a world of difference.


Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Going electric
« Reply #3 on: 15 January, 2023, 12:43:48 pm »
An omafiets (and there are excellent electric ones from the likes of Gazelle and Kalkhoff) would be an excellent practical machine, up until the point where you go anywhere near a train.

I'd suggest approaching this problem on two different axes:  First, the flavour of electric assist.  The higher-end world seems to be consolidating on mid-drive systems from the Shimano and Bosch, but there are plenty of hub motor systems around at the lower end.  Different electric assist systems behave very differently in terms of how they deliver power in response to your pedalling: Low-end stuff just senses that the cranks are rotating and applies a set level of power, better systems sense the rider's torque and cadence and apply power proportionally, but with different power curves that affect how it feels to ride.  There's no right answer, though it's probably a truism that a cargo bike or tandem (or loaded tourer?) benefits from a sharp kick of acceleration as you start off, while smooth delivery of torque is more important for mountain bikes.  How the system behaves around the speed limit is important too - if it sharply cuts the assistance, there's a tendency to oscillate, unless the rider eases off to let the electric assist do more of the work, or rides hard enough to stay above the limit on human power alone.  The best way to make an informed decision is to test-ride a variety of systems.  It's not too important what type of bike they're attached to.

Then, you can start looking at bikes with your preferred flavour of e-assist.  You already know plenty about bikes, just be aware that e-bikes tend to be geared fairly high on the assumption the motor will be doing much of the work, and consider weight distribution.  The peril of low-end e-bikes is the use of BSO-grade components to keep the cost down.

Re: Going electric
« Reply #4 on: 15 January, 2023, 12:44:51 pm »
One of our friends bought a "Raleigh" branded ebike in 2021.  He is very happy with it.  It has a rear rack as standard and looks like a front could be fitted with some tinkering or a replacement fork with appropriate braze ons.

His plan is to tour with a trailer.

I think that he's thrown about £3k at the project this far.

For lots cheaper a bafang type conversion on an existing bike might be the best option.  No wheels to rebuild and you can keep your existing setup.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Going electric
« Reply #5 on: 15 January, 2023, 12:49:35 pm »
Shame they don't do regen.

Gearless hub motors usually do, because it's literally a case of software to implement it.  The problem is that, unlike a car, most of a cyclist's energy is immediately lost to air resistance, so there's relatively little kinetic energy to reclaim through regeneration.  There's also the limit to how much power you can absorb on a really fast descent, given the current ratings of the motor and batteries.

So it's more useful as a sort of anti-lock braking for mountain bikes, than as way to extend range.  You might gain a few percent more range on a hilly ride, but you might equally gain that through use of a lighter and more efficient geared motor.

velosam

  • '.....you used to be an apple on a stick.'
Re: Going electric
« Reply #6 on: 15 January, 2023, 02:11:34 pm »
Thanks Kim, that helps explain why they don't have it.  I

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Going electric
« Reply #7 on: 15 January, 2023, 02:42:41 pm »
For lots cheaper a bafang type conversion on an existing bike might be the best option.  No wheels to rebuild and you can keep your existing setup.

Yebbut transmission wear is potentially higher than with a hub, esp. if you're given to riding up hills at 25 kph. And you can get wheels with hub motors already built in.  Some gravel bikes come with all the rack/mudguard-mounting points you could need for a trip round the world and they usually have MTB dropout spacing, which widens the choice of motors, most of them having 135mm axles.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: Going electric
« Reply #8 on: 15 January, 2023, 04:38:40 pm »
Indeed.  I did a conversion for a friend to a motorised front wheel.  The problem was that it was not a standard size so I had to source a rim (26 and 3/8ths, heavy duty spokes of the right length with nipples and then struggle with the build.

The stock wheels aren't great but they will do a job.

Re: Going electric
« Reply #9 on: 15 January, 2023, 04:59:33 pm »
In my limited experience, e-bikes fall into two distinct categories:
Those that ride pretty much like any other bike and offer limited assistance when desired.
Those that ride like powered vehicles all the time and are no fun to pedal without it.
I don't think there's a bike that does both well.  I have one of the latter type, a Trek Allant, bought primarily to do deliveroo but I use it for all utility cycling.  It's fantastic with it Bosch 85Nm motor, up any hill, with any weight, just flies along. But without assistance, usually when I've greedily done an extra delivery and ended up miles from a battery replacement, it isn't pleasant at all.  The CTC group I ride with has a couple of riders with the other sort, I was out with one today, on a 60km ride they probably used the assistance for 5, they didn't seem to be at any disadvantage the rest of the time.
Trains - A pedalec is considered a bicycle unless specifically excluded, I think the only mainline operator to ban them was the Caledonian Sleeper and they quickly reversed that.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Going electric
« Reply #10 on: 15 January, 2023, 05:33:38 pm »
Trains - A pedalec is considered a bicycle unless specifically excluded, I think the only mainline operator to ban them was the Caledonian Sleeper and they quickly reversed that.

The main issue with trains is going to be the additional weight for carrying it on and off and lifting into Dangly Bike Spaces™.  Some common e-bike features such as unusually shaped frames, wide handlebars and relatively chunky tyres may not play well with some bike spaces, but this isn't because of the electric assist.  You'd be just as out of luck with an unassisted Sensible City Bike.

Re: Going electric
« Reply #11 on: 15 January, 2023, 07:41:42 pm »
Steph, would you be able to give a rough idea of your budget so that we can scour the internet?

As others have mentioned, weight can be an issue, and that’s before you deal with things like bike spaces on trains. Would you need to carry the bike up or down stairs at any point?

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Going electric
« Reply #12 on: 16 January, 2023, 08:21:11 am »
As a rough indication of what to expect, putting a motor on my old warhorse added just under 8 kg including motorized 700c wheel, battery, battery mount inc control unit, cables & HB console.  The battery alone was 1.5 kg and I need a rack + saddlebag to schlepp my spare.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: Going electric
« Reply #13 on: 16 January, 2023, 08:35:49 am »
My e-bike is barely heavier than a gas pipe steel bike. It's lighter than our tandem.

Range is relatively limited and the battery is non-removable. Takes luggage, has full guards. You can get another battery to sit in a bottle cage- it has bosses for 3.

It's sits appropriately on the good-light-cheap matrix where the third one is the one is what I (Mr Smith, actually) sacrificed.

I can imagine touring on it- it has all the necessary for front racks too. But as I don't actually 'do' touring, that's moot.

It's my commuter and a car replacement. It's a terrain-flattener not a range extender for me.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Going electric
« Reply #14 on: 16 January, 2023, 10:38:14 am »
If you're going to spend that^ much, you could spend relatively little more and get a Tern GSD, which would be far more load-oriented. Or spend half of that and get a RadPower (if you can cope with the name!). https://radpowerbikes.co.uk/collections/electric-bikess
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Going electric
« Reply #15 on: 16 January, 2023, 10:52:32 am »
If you're going to spend that^ much, you could spend relatively little more and get a Tern GSD, which would be far more load-oriented. Or spend half of that and get a RadPower (if you can cope with the name!). https://radpowerbikes.co.uk/collections/electric-bikess
I think that illustrates the point I made upthread about two types of E-bike.  I'm guessing L CC's bike rides reasonably well without assistance, it would need to with such a small battery.  Whereas I know a Tern is hard work, compared to a tourer, without at least the lowest setting running most of the time.
That's not to say one type is better than the other, just the need to understand which you're looking for.

Steph

  • Fast. Fast and bulbous. But fluffy.
Re: Going electric
« Reply #16 on: 16 January, 2023, 11:39:53 am »
Steph, would you be able to give a rough idea of your budget so that we can scour the internet?

As others have mentioned, weight can be an issue, and that’s before you deal with things like bike spaces on trains. Would you need to carry the bike up or down stairs at any point?

As I am now in possession of an inheritance, I do have some spare cash. I am looking at around £1.5-£2K. As Kim and others say, I understand the BSO plague. I want something that would let me ride to work again, carry a decent luggage load well-distributed and, effectively, become mobile once more.

I looked at one e-bike online that had a daft load carrying arrangement-- full length mudguard, pannier hangers either side below the top of the MG. No load platform of any kind, so my normal arrangement of front/rear bags with tent across the back would be impossible
Mae angen arnaf i byw, a fe fydda'i

Re: Going electric
« Reply #17 on: 16 January, 2023, 01:05:24 pm »
You might consider a rear wheel conversion kit for your tourer.  Most take a Shimano cassette and batteries can be mounted to bottle cage locations so one can be slung beneath the down tube.

If you want better weight distribution then a front whee  conversion would suit but then you lose out on a hub dynamo if you have one.

Re: Going electric
« Reply #18 on: 16 January, 2023, 01:19:53 pm »
Hi Steph, I think that budget should bring quite a few things within range or close, certainly it should get you well out of complete BSO territory. Just as an example, some of the Ribble hybrid e-bikes are not too much over that and are often discounted.

https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-hybrid-al-e/?childSku=BBURBANE001

Or something like:
https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Orbea/Vibe-H30-EQ-Electric-Hybrid-Bike-2021/ROTF?

Re the Tern suggestion, I had a Tern Vektron for about a year. OK, it is a 20" wheel folder, and the engineering needed to allow it to fold adds weight, as did the IG hub I had on it, but at the end of the day it was heavy machine even unloaded / unkitted out. Completely unworkable as a train assisted tourer, I'd have thought - awkward to carry folded, too big for bike hangers unfolded...

If I were you I'd continue to look for the sort of 700c wheel hybrid tourer you mentioned.

Re: Going electric
« Reply #19 on: 16 January, 2023, 02:11:22 pm »
I think that illustrates the point I made upthread about two types of E-bike.  I'm guessing L CC's bike rides reasonably well without assistance, it would need to with such a small battery.  Whereas I know a Tern is hard work, compared to a tourer, without at least the lowest setting running most of the time.
That's not to say one type is better than the other, just the need to understand which you're looking for.

Agree 100%. I could, on a good day, ride it to work. I'd want it to be unladen, mind.

When we bought it they described touring-orientated bikes that have a walk-assist mode, as they are so heavy you need help in pushing it!

Re: Going electric
« Reply #20 on: 16 January, 2023, 02:33:14 pm »
As I am now in possession of an inheritance, I do have some spare cash. I am looking at around £1.5-£2K.
With that budget, I'd be tempted to look secondhand, there seems to be a good selection of E-bikes bought in the lockdown and hardly used. 
I wanted to keep my budget below £2K and couldn't, it ended up just under £3k and that was before the recent price hikes.  When you consider a decent conversion kit with a good sized battery can cost £1K plus, it gives an idea of what bike you'll be getting for 1.5.  If you want anything more than occasional assistance, battery size is critical, it's also where a large chunk of the money goes, those two hybrids linked above have 250Wh batteries. A large rider like myself, with a good bit of extra luggage, on an undulating route, would be lucky to get more than twenty miles without putting in the sort of effort that meant I could have done most it on an unassisted bike.
I was tempted by a mid drive conversion, it's a decent saving if you have a suitable bike, I didn't so kit + bike wasn't a huge advantage.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Going electric
« Reply #21 on: 16 January, 2023, 05:27:27 pm »
If you want better weight distribution then a front whee  conversion would suit but then you lose out on a hub dynamo if you have one.

A hub dynamo on an ebike is naff anyway.  You've got a battery that'll power your lights for a week or so (or couple of hours when it gets too low to power the motor), and you've already got battery charging worked out, so a dynamo is just extra weight and inefficiency.

Any ebike system worth its salt provides power for lighting, though you'll have to RTFM to work out if you can power your dynamo lights directly from it, tolerance for DC voltage sources varies from model to model.  E-bike-specific lights from the usual suspects are slightly brighter dynamo-quality lights with DC electronics.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Going electric
« Reply #22 on: 16 January, 2023, 05:32:36 pm »
When we bought it they described touring-orientated bikes that have a walk-assist mode, as they are so heavy you need help in pushing it!

This is a standard feature of STEPS, and probably most of the other decent systems.  It's a neat little exception to the have-to-be-pedalling rule, and provides just enough oomph to persuade a loaded bike to mount a kerb, which is a game-changer if you have an arm disability that precludes hoiking it up in the traditional manner when someone parks a car over the dropped kerb that leads to the cycle racks.

Probably useful for Silly Sustrans infrastructure, too.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Going electric
« Reply #23 on: 16 January, 2023, 07:37:22 pm »
Re the Tern suggestion, I had a Tern Vektron for about a year. OK, it is a 20" wheel folder, and the engineering needed to allow it to fold adds weight, as did the IG hub I had on it, but at the end of the day it was heavy machine even unloaded / unkitted out. Completely unworkable as a train assisted tourer, I'd have thought - awkward to carry folded, too big for bike hangers unfolded...

If I were you I'd continue to look for the sort of 700c wheel hybrid tourer you mentioned.
Fair point. I only suggested Tern because Steph wanted load carrying and the Terns are hugely popular locally, but for carrying shopping, kids, and deliveries, rather than touring.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Going electric
« Reply #24 on: 16 January, 2023, 08:54:48 pm »
If you want anything more than occasional assistance, battery size is critical, it's also where a large chunk of the money goes, those two hybrids linked above have 250Wh batteries.

True, I had assumed that everything would have at least 400Wh like the Tern Vektron and didn’t check that.

Still, I do think Steph’s budget will eventually result in something very decent.

Re the Tern suggestion, I had a Tern Vektron for about a year. OK, it is a 20" wheel folder, and the engineering needed to allow it to fold adds weight, as did the IG hub I had on it, but at the end of the day it was heavy machine even unloaded / unkitted out. Completely unworkable as a train assisted tourer, I'd have thought - awkward to carry folded, too big for bike hangers unfolded...

If I were you I'd continue to look for the sort of 700c wheel hybrid tourer you mentioned.
Fair point. I only suggested Tern because Steph wanted load carrying and the Terns are hugely popular locally, but for carrying shopping, kids, and deliveries, rather than touring.

The Vektron would be an excellent load / child carrier and had a lot of good points (well designed and put together, mechanically and electrically faultless in my ownership) but I came to the view that the folding was only of use for saving a bit of space when parking up at home. It was just too awkward to move or lift when folded.