Going electric

[andrew_s]

My other question here is based on rail attitudes to e-scooters, one of which I saw turfed off a train at Newport for safety concerns (battery fire risk). Does anyone know, from experience or published rules, whether similar difficulties would attend touring with an electric bike?

E-scooters are regarded as being a relatively high risk because the battery is under the foot platform, where it's vulnerable to being crunched by people riding off kerbs and such. Physical damage is a major cause of lithium batteries catching fire, and it's not necessarily immediate.

[Frank9755]

Don't expect to get the right bike first time!

It's almost impossible to do so, other than by luck, as the only way to find out what works for you is to ride at least one bike.  The manufacturers' descriptions don't help as they don't tell you what their bikes do well and less well.  Even recommendations from trusted friends are not that much use as their needs will be different - and it is primarily about fit with needs rather than 'quality'.

I'd recommend buying something cheap, second hand first, with a view to upgrading, or building your own, when you have a better idea. 

[fd3]

Check whether your bike to work scheme has extended the maximum above the 1k limit.

My wife has a Tern and it's great for taking my daughter to school, but shit for manhandling about.  I'd look for a deal on a bike like LCC's and accept that I would be paying a bit more than I would like for something *really* nice.

[chrisbainbridge]

My wife has an electric trek madone which secondhand comes in about the top of Steph's budget.  hers is 3-4 years old.  Full carbon with an integrated battery in the downtubebiut it can drop out and a shell placed which drops the weight to normal bike levels.  She does not do anything so plebeian as have panniers (that is why one has sherpas) but it would be simple to fit one of the alloy tail fin systems on the thruaxle adapter.

[Adam]

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point the train operators get around to banning e-bikes on the basis that a) they've already banned scooters due to concerns about the batteries catching fire and b) they don't like having to carry bikes anyway.

So it might be sensible to plan ahead and opt for one of the e-bikes which have the battery integrated into the down tube so they don't look so obvious.  And those ones can also end up being lighter.

[DuncanM]

Has anyone tried one of those SwytchBike conversion kits? They are heavily advertised, and they have some sort of discount where pre-ordering saves money, but I don't know if they are actually any good. The only review I've actually watched was far more city bike focussed.
If one already has a bike that fits ones needs, which just needs a bit more oomf, that might be a shortcut rather than trying to find a new ebike.

[Adam]

Don't get a Swytch kit!  In the last couple of years I've had a number of customers ring up saying they've just got one and can I install it for them. Inwardly I groan.

For starters, I have doubts about the long term viability of the company.  Effectively they crowdsource and tell people they can buy at a discount. You can't buy one immediately and pay the daft inflated full price.  Once enough people have paid their money, then they go and order the kits.  Which then take 6-8 months to turn up.    And often they don't send all the ordered bits.  And even if they do, often they don't work.  For one customer we had to send the controller unit back twice to get a working one.  Another one needed 2 wheels.

The company first started in 2017, and now they're on the 3rd version which has a tiny battery (to keep the cost down).  Even with the larger of 2 sizes, you're lucky to get 20 mile range.

They also con people about paying for the fancy displays, when in fact the basic one is better and easier to use.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Besides, by buying a Swytch kit, you're promoting that annoying advert. It's down there with Hello Fresh and Grammarly in horror-vert stakes.

[Kim]

Besides, by buying a Swytch kit, you're promoting that annoying advert. It's down there with Hello Fresh and Grammarly in horror-vert stakes.

On a related note, Wix is back.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Besides, by buying a Swytch kit, you're promoting that annoying advert. It's down there with Hello Fresh and Grammarly in horror-vert stakes.

On a related note, Wix is back.

I've managed to escape that one, but: Plus 500.

(Perhaps these last couple of posts really belong in the recent "Really depressing phrases" thread)

[Kim]

Besides, by buying a Swytch kit, you're promoting that annoying advert. It's down there with Hello Fresh and Grammarly in horror-vert stakes.

On a related note, Wix is back.

I've managed to escape that one, but: Plus 500.

I'm still not sure what that one is.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Besides, by buying a Swytch kit, you're promoting that annoying advert. It's down there with Hello Fresh and Grammarly in horror-vert stakes.

On a related note, Wix is back.

I've managed to escape that one, but: Plus 500.

I'm still not sure what that one is.

It's the one that tells when Grandma is teething. Or something.

[Steph]

Thanks all. Food for thought.

[perpetual dan]

Shame they don't do regen.

Gearless hub motors usually do, because it's literally a case of software to implement it.  The problem is that, unlike a car, most of a cyclist's energy is immediately lost to air resistance, so there's relatively little kinetic energy to reclaim through regeneration.  There's also the limit to how much power you can absorb on a really fast descent, given the current ratings of the motor and batteries.

So it's more useful as a sort of anti-lock braking for mountain bikes, than as way to extend range.  You might gain a few percent more range on a hilly ride, but you might equally gain that through use of a lighter and more efficient geared motor.

I did try one with some kind of regen at the bike show last summer. It's not magic, but coast to the lights or down a hill and it tops the charge up. I forget how much battery it had, or its charging from the wall setup. And i did two laps of a bike show test track, which isn't quite like a regular commute.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Frank9755]

Don't get a Swytch kit!  In the last couple of years I've had a number of customers ring up saying they've just got one and can I install it for them. Inwardly I groan.

For starters, I have doubts about the long term viability of the company.  Effectively they crowdsource and tell people they can buy at a discount. You can't buy one immediately and pay the daft inflated full price.  Once enough people have paid their money, then they go and order the kits.  Which then take 6-8 months to turn up.    And often they don't send all the ordered bits.  And even if they do, often they don't work.  For one customer we had to send the controller unit back twice to get a working one.  Another one needed 2 wheels.

The company first started in 2017, and now they're on the 3rd version which has a tiny battery (to keep the cost down).  Even with the larger of 2 sizes, you're lucky to get 20 mile range.

They also con people about paying for the fancy displays, when in fact the basic one is better and easier to use.

Interesting to hear your feedback, Adam.

Swytch recently raised £3.8m from Green Angel Syndicate so their future is secure for the time being:
https://ukbaa.org.uk/blog/2022/04/11/green-angel-syndicate-leads-3-8m-investment-into-ebike-conversion-company-swytch/ 

A guy who used to be in my club now works there as their marketing person. He explained the model.  Basically they take orders at a discount until they have enough to order a consignment from their suppliers in China.  They give a (nominal) discount on these orders.  When they order a consignment they will then have some stock, which they sell at full price for immediate delivery.  The vast majority of people pay the discounted price.

A Swytch kit is an easy, and relatively cheap, way to get an electric bike if you already have a bike.  It will never be as good as a good ready-made bike or a properly thought through bespoke conversion, so I wouldn't particularly recommend it for the OP.  On the other hand, if there is a decent second-hand market, it might not be a bad temporary choice to learn from.

The small batteries are based on research that a large proportion of people only ever want to do short journeys, so don't need to carry a large battery around.  Smaller one easier to take with you when you park, and obviously costs a lot less.  That makes sense to me - although I have no insight on how well they have implemented it. 

[Kim]

The small batteries are based on research that a large proportion of people only ever want to do short journeys, so don't need to carry a large battery around.  Smaller one easier to take with you when you park, and obviously costs a lot less.  That makes sense to me - although I have no insight on how well they have implemented it.

Makes sense to me, too.  Given the average non-cyclist's idea of a reasonable cycling distance, combined with the general impression of batteries (particularly those powering electric vehicles) as being something that's prone to running out without warning, mean the average customer isn't going to be disappointed by low range.

[velosam]

I realise this thread has now meandered off, but the other advantage I see of smaller batteries is that you can carry spares for the days you think you maybe out for longer.

The other thing about having an e-bike is that I tend to pack more as I just say what the hell, weight is not an issue, till I have to lift the thing somewhere (rarely now as its too heavy e.g. when trying to avoid waiting at a rail crossing and using the bridge instead).

[Paul H]

I realise this thread has now meandered off, but the other advantage I see of smaller batteries is that you can carry spares for the days you think you maybe out for longer.

There is that, though it tends to be an expensive way to buy the same capacity compared to a single battery. 
Plus you don't get the same usage from carrying a spare as you do with bikes designed for two batteries, at least that's how it was explained to me by a R&M salesman.  Twin batteries use them together, the inevitable sag you get as a battery runs down is managed so you only get it once. The experience on my Bosch powered Trek, is I need to go up a power level once the battery is down to 20% and the last 5% doesn't offer much even on the highest setting. 

[Frank9755]

I realise this thread has now meandered off, but the other advantage I see of smaller batteries is that you can carry spares for the days you think you maybe out for longer.

There is that, though it tends to be an expensive way to buy the same capacity compared to a single battery. 
Plus you don't get the same usage from carrying a spare as you do with bikes designed for two batteries, at least that's how it was explained to me by a R&M salesman.  Twin batteries use them together, the inevitable sag you get as a battery runs down is managed so you only get it once. The experience on my Bosch powered Trek, is I need to go up a power level once the battery is down to 20% and the last 5% doesn't offer much even on the highest setting.

What the salesman is describing is how they try to make two batteries perform as one big battery.  His option is, in turn, a more expensive way of getting the same capacity as a very large battery!

About 15 years ago when the tech was far less mature, I did a few tours where my then wife had a bike with two separate batteries.  We would run one down then switch to the second.  It wasn't, in practice, a problem

If one is to have two batteries, I can see logic in having a very small one plus a big one, rather than two the same (as we had).

[L CC]

I realise this thread has now meandered off, but the other advantage I see of smaller batteries is that you can carry spares for the days you think you maybe out for longer.

There is that, though it tends to be an expensive way to buy the same capacity compared to a single battery. 
Plus you don't get the same usage from carrying a spare as you do with bikes designed for two batteries, at least that's how it was explained to me by a R&M salesman.  Twin batteries use them together, the inevitable sag you get as a battery runs down is managed so you only get it once. The experience on my Bosch powered Trek, is I need to go up a power level once the battery is down to 20% and the last 5% doesn't offer much even on the highest setting. 

In the Spesh universe (not our spesh, obvs) they have a bespoke item which the motor's intelligence uses as a pair in parallel not in series.

ETA: the basic battery is 320 and the 'Range Extender' is 160.

How it works: While riding, the batteries alternate so that it drains each equally, or you can optionally set the range extender to drain first in Mission Control.  The two batteries can be charged directly on the bike or detached and charged on an external charger – which is very convenient when no socket is nearby. The same charger can be used to top up the batteries whether mounted or removed, but it is only possible to charge both of them simultaneously directly on the bike.

A unique future proof benefit of this design that the Range Extender is just at the TSA limit of 160 watt hours, so you can take the bike to your local shop and have the main battery removed (at 320 watt hours they are not allowed), then ship the bicycle on an airplane as a regular bike. You take the battery in your luggage, then the bike can then run solely off of a range-extender when you are on your trip. When you get back home you can get the main battery put back in.

The only thing I don't like about this bike (I love it, if that wasn't clear already) is the name of the management app "Mission Control". 

[Paul H]

I realise this thread has now meandered off, but the other advantage I see of smaller batteries is that you can carry spares for the days you think you maybe out for longer.

There is that, though it tends to be an expensive way to buy the same capacity compared to a single battery. 

What the salesman is describing is how they try to make two batteries perform as one big battery.  His option is, in turn, a more expensive way of getting the same capacity as a very large battery!

As explained to me, the sag is the same as it would be for a single battery. So half what it would be carrying a spare and swapping over.  Is that not correct?
I have two, for deliveroo, and the spare is in a location I can get to while working.  I've tried rotating them before they get to 50% and it made no difference.

[Frank9755]

I don't recall 'sag' ever being an issue, but it was a long time ago, and we were using a low power drain setup.

[Kim]

Sag is just what e-bike people call the voltage drop due to internal resistance of the battery.  I'm not entirely sure why.

Stands to reason that if you put two identical batteries in parallel you'll halve the resistance at a given level of discharge compared to a single battery at the same level of discharge.  Of course, since you've doubled the capacity you'll take about twice as long to get to that point, too.

Which doesn't preclude practical reasons for wanting smaller batteries: If you don't always need all the capacity, you don't have to carry it.  If you're delivering stuff you can leave one on charge and swap.  If you're nervous about range you can ensure you don't run out by turning back at the battery-swap point.  If a battery b0rks, you're not completely stuffed.  That sort of thing.

[perpetual dan]

Sag is just what e-bike people call the voltage drop due to internal resistance of the battery.  I'm not entirely sure why.

Stands to reason that if you put two identical batteries in parallel you'll halve the resistance at a given level of discharge compared to a single battery at the same level of discharge.  Of course, since you've doubled the capacity you'll take about twice as long to get to that point, too.
…

The “identical” bit makes me nervous, especially if one gets left at home sometimes for short trips to the shops. Maybe I’m out of date with new tangled batteries and how they discharge and age, but “two identical” sounds to me somewhere between exam question glossing over details and “a long time ago in a land far away”.

[Paul H]

Sag is just what e-bike people call the voltage drop due to internal resistance of the battery.  I'm not entirely sure why.

Stands to reason that if you put two identical batteries in parallel you'll halve the resistance at a given level of discharge compared to a single battery at the same level of discharge.  Of course, since you've doubled the capacity you'll take about twice as long to get to that point, too.

Which doesn't preclude practical reasons for wanting smaller batteries: If you don't always need all the capacity, you don't have to carry it.  If you're delivering stuff you can leave one on charge and swap.  If you're nervous about range you can ensure you don't run out by turning back at the battery-swap point.  If a battery b0rks, you're not completely stuffed.  That sort of thing.

I'm pretty sure that most of the time the Bosh/R&M system isn't using the duel batteries in parallel, but alternating between them until they're both low and then drawing of both.  There's nothing in that system that stops you from only taking one.
However it works, the point is the system can manage duel batteries and increase the range compared to me having a second battery.