Broken spoke of a motor wheel

[onerousdeporte]

If a rear motor wheel has a broken spoke, 32 or 36 wheel haven't checked, on a rear motorised rear wheel would you replace the spoke and hope?

[Polar Bear]

Having had the experience of building a wheel with an electric hub I would slacken the remaining spokes off, fit a replacement and slowly, very very slowly work around bringing the wheel back to tension and truth.

It was a tedious, trying and frustrating task.  The whole wheel seemed to have a life of it's own and would inexplicably just slip out of true as if some greater force had lengthened some spokes and shortened others.

An experience I vowed never to repeat.

[robgul]

Having had the experience of building a wheel with an electric hub I would slacken the remaining spokes off, fit a replacement and slowly, very very slowly work around bringing the wheel back to tension and truth.

It was a tedious, trying and frustrating task.  The whole wheel seemed to have a life of it's own and would inexplicably just slip out of true as if some greater force had lengthened some spokes and shortened others.

An experience I vowed never to repeat.

From my experience running an LBS PB's comments reinforce the view that avoiding "in-wheel" motors on e-bikes is a good idea, both front and rear.   It's the weight and imbalance of the motor unit that makes wheel-building/spoke replacement very tricky.

[T42]

Fortunately, the manufacturer of my kit is just 25 km away.  Well, the motors are built in China but the rest is done here.

[D.A.L.E.]

If a spoke had broken on any wheel I'd be getting it replaced asap..?

[iandusud]

I fitted a kit from Woosh to my cargo bike. The spokes in the wheel were no where near tight enough so I tensioned them properly and have had no problems. Note that the spokes are a heavy guage (12g I think) and require suitable sized spoke key/spanner. As someone who has built cycle and motorcycle wheels professionally for many years I have these. I also had to do the same for a friend who bought a similar kit, so my assumption is that these wheels come out of China with nothing like enough tension on the spokes. Nothing will guarantee broken spokes quicker than under tensioned spokes. It requires no great skill to rectify this situation. Just go round the wheel tightening each spoke a little at a time. Tapping the spokes with a spoke spanner or something else suitable will indicate when there's some reasonable tension in the spokes as they will ring rather than give a dull sound. 

[Adam]

I think it's an issue with badly built wheels.  In my shop, I've had 3 different customers bring in Wisper 705 e-bikes with broken spokes in the rear motor wheel.  One of them actually had 3 broken spokes and it wasn't the first time it had happened on his bike, so I re-built the motor onto a new rim with brand new spokes all round.  Still going OK.

[onerousdeporte]

Having had the experience of building a wheel with an electric hub I would slacken the remaining spokes off, fit a replacement and slowly, very very slowly work around bringing the wheel back to tension and truth.

It was a tedious, trying and frustrating task.  The whole wheel seemed to have a life of it's own and would inexplicably just slip out of true as if some greater force had lengthened some spokes and shortened others.

An experience I vowed never to repeat.

Was the wheel a decent branded built wheel?

From my experience running an LBS PB's comments reinforce the view that avoiding "in-wheel" motors on e-bikes is a good idea, both front and rear.   It's the weight and imbalance of the motor unit that makes wheel-building/spoke replacement very tricky.

Even on factory made wheels? 

If a spoke had broken on any wheel I'd be getting it replaced asap..?

Would on my own wheel, but no idea how long this has been going on.  Just thinking about an electric bike possible issue

I fitted a kit from Woosh to my cargo bike. The spokes in the wheel were no where near tight enough so I tensioned them properly and have had no problems. Note that the spokes are a heavy guage (12g I think) and require suitable sized spoke key/spanner. As someone who has built cycle and motorcycle wheels professionally for many years I have these. I also had to do the same for a friend who bought a similar kit, so my assumption is that these wheels come out of China with nothing like enough tension on the spokes. Nothing will guarantee broken spokes quicker than under tensioned spokes. It requires no great skill to rectify this situation. Just go round the wheel tightening each spoke a little at a time. Tapping the spokes with a spoke spanner or something else suitable will indicate when there's some reasonable tension in the spokes as they will ring rather than give a dull sound. 

So looking at a wheel tweak at the minimum.

I think it's an issue with badly built wheels.  In my shop, I've had 3 different customers bring in Wisper 705 e-bikes with broken spokes in the rear motor wheel.  One of them actually had 3 broken spokes and it wasn't the first time it had happened on his bike, so I re-built the motor onto a new rim with brand new spokes all round.  Still going OK.

Have you had anything back from orbea?

[Adam]

Have you had anything back from orbea?

Not seen any issues with their e-bikes.

[Jodel]

I have rear wheel kits from Woosh on both my tandem and a solo bike.  I had a few broken spokes on the tandem after about 500 miles, but I rebuilt the wheel with a Ryde Sputnik rim, Sapim Strong spokes and laced as a single cross.  Its been fine for a few years and a couple of thousand miles now.  Tandem rear wheels typically have quite a hard life, but my rebuilt one has been perfectly OK.  The wheel on my solo bike is OK too - even with its cheap Chinese spokes / rim.

In due course, I do intend to rebuild the solo wheel with same components as my tandem though as that should make it pretty bomb proof.

[Polar Bear]

Having had the experience of building a wheel with an electric hub I would slacken the remaining spokes off, fit a replacement and slowly, very very slowly work around bringing the wheel back to tension and truth.

It was a tedious, trying and frustrating task.  The whole wheel seemed to have a life of it's own and would inexplicably just slip out of true as if some greater force had lengthened some spokes and shortened others.

An experience I vowed never to repeat.

Was the wheel a decent branded built wheel?
...

No, it was an entirely handbuilt wheel by me.  The bike had those odd sized 26 inch french wheels which meant that I had to source a rim then measure up and order the 12g spokes.  I then had to carefully ream out the spoke holes because of the thicker gauge of the spokes and thus thicker nipples.

It was quite an effort but the end result is excellent and has been going well for about 4 years now.  The original non-motorised wheel was preserved allowing my friend to simply replace the wheel and sell on the bike whilst keeping the kit for her next machine. 

[iandusud]

I have rear wheel kits from Woosh on both my tandem and a solo bike.  I had a few broken spokes on the tandem after about 500 miles, but I rebuilt the wheel with a Ryde Sputnik rim, Sapim Strong spokes and laced as a single cross.  Its been fine for a few years and a couple of thousand miles now.  Tandem rear wheels typically have quite a hard life, but my rebuilt one has been perfectly OK.  The wheel on my solo bike is OK too - even with its cheap Chinese spokes / rim.

In due course, I do intend to rebuild the solo wheel with same components as my tandem though as that should make it pretty bomb proof.

I don't think there is an issue with the quality of the spokes or rim on the Woosh wheels other than the need for the spokes to be properly tensioned. My Cargo wheel carries loads that correspond to what our tandems have to cope with plus the torque of the 48V high torque motor, and I've no issues at all. I don't see any need to rebuild the wheel for a solo bike as long as the spokes are properly tensioned.

[onerousdeporte]

Anyone local to London fancy having a go/eye at the wheel?

[iandusud]

Anyone local to London fancy having a go/eye at the wheel?

I'd be very happy to but I live "up North".

[Jodel]

I don't think there is an issue with the quality of the spokes or rim on the Woosh wheels other than the need for the spokes to be properly tensioned. My Cargo wheel carries loads that correspond to what our tandems have to cope with plus the torque of the 48V high torque motor, and I've no issues at all. I don't see any need to rebuild the wheel for a solo bike as long as the spokes are properly tensioned.

Were it not for my experience to the contrary, I'd be inclined to agree with you.  My original Woosh wheel lasted about 500 miles before it started to break spokes and it was properly trued / tensioned.  When I bought another wheel of the same type for my solo, I fitted it to the tandem initially.  After about 600 miles, I started to get an odd clicking noise from the rear wheel when riding.  I couldn't replicate the noise on the workstand with no weight on the wheel.  Shortly after the noise appeared, it broke a spoke at the elbow, so I replaced the broken spoke, swapped it to the solo bike and its been fine since.  I still intend to rebuild it with a Sputnik rim and Sapim strong spokes so that I have a ready built spare to swap with the tandem if I have to.  It helps that I quite enjoy wheel-building though

I also went to the trouble of checking the accuracy of my Park tools tensionometer by making up a rather Heath-Robinson spoke test rig with a digital strain gauge.  The Park tools gauge is great for checking spoke tension consistency, but the associated calibration / conversion chart is way off for checking the actual KGF value - over-reading by about 30 KGF or more.   I checked it with the Woosh, Sapim race and Sapim strong spokes.  I also checked the Park tools gauge against a known good wheelset.  According to the gauge, the readings were also well over what they should have been (they weren't). 

For the avoidance of doubt, I still rate Woosh very highly as a supplier as their kits are well specified and are genuinely 'plug & play'.  They are UK based and customer support is readily available.  In fact, I've recently requested a version of my motor controller configured for current control rather than the default setting of speed control.  Woosh are looking to modify the firmware load to suit.  I doubt I'd be able to get that sort of service from a Chinese supplier.

[iandusud]

I don't think there is an issue with the quality of the spokes or rim on the Woosh wheels other than the need for the spokes to be properly tensioned. My Cargo wheel carries loads that correspond to what our tandems have to cope with plus the torque of the 48V high torque motor, and I've no issues at all. I don't see any need to rebuild the wheel for a solo bike as long as the spokes are properly tensioned.

Were it not for my experience to the contrary, I'd be inclined to agree with you.  My original Woosh wheel lasted about 500 miles before it started to break spokes and it was properly trued / tensioned.  When I bought another wheel of the same type for my solo, I fitted it to the tandem initially.  After about 600 miles, I started to get an odd clicking noise from the rear wheel when riding.  I couldn't replicate the noise on the workstand with no weight on the wheel.  Shortly after the noise appeared, it broke a spoke at the elbow, so I replaced the broken spoke, swapped it to the solo bike and its been fine since.  I still intend to rebuild it with a Sputnik rim and Sapim strong spokes so that I have a ready built spare to swap with the tandem if I have to.  It helps that I quite enjoy wheel-building though

I also went to the trouble of checking the accuracy of my Park tools tensionometer by making up a rather Heath-Robinson spoke test rig with a digital strain gauge.  The Park tools gauge is great for checking spoke tension consistency, but the associated calibration / conversion chart is way off for checking the actual KGF value - over-reading by about 30 KGF or more.   I checked it with the Woosh, Sapim race and Sapim strong spokes.  I also checked the Park tools gauge against a known good wheelset.  According to the gauge, the readings were also well over what they should have been (they weren't). 

For the avoidance of doubt, I still rate Woosh very highly as a supplier as their kits are well specified and are genuinely 'plug & play'.  They are UK based and customer support is readily available.  In fact, I've recently requested a version of my motor controller configured for current control rather than the default setting of speed control.  Woosh are looking to modify the firmware load to suit.  I doubt I'd be able to get that sort of service from a Chinese supplier.

Well I wouldn't argue with your experience. However in over 40 years of wheel building I've never used a spoke tension meter. But my experience of building motorcycle wheels which use much heavier gauge spokes than bicycles, but more like those that Woosh supply with their wheels. is that they require A LOT of tension as there is very little elasticity in them and they therefore struggle to hold tension unless very tight.

I'm very interested in your request for a current control controller firmware, as I would prefer this rather than preset speeds of the extant controller. Which controller do you have and is it a simple matter of a frimware update or does it require a different controller? Like you I have found Woosh very good to deal with.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Anyone local to London fancy having a go/eye at the wheel?

Give me a few days/ a couple of weeks and we could meet up for a tea/ pint and playing with your wheel.

[Jodel]

I don't think there is an issue with the quality of the spokes or rim on the Woosh wheels other than the need for the spokes to be properly tensioned. My Cargo wheel carries loads that correspond to what our tandems have to cope with plus the torque of the 48V high torque motor, and I've no issues at all. I don't see any need to rebuild the wheel for a solo bike as long as the spokes are properly tensioned.

Were it not for my experience to the contrary, I'd be inclined to agree with you.  My original Woosh wheel lasted about 500 miles before it started to break spokes and it was properly trued / tensioned.  When I bought another wheel of the same type for my solo, I fitted it to the tandem initially.  After about 600 miles, I started to get an odd clicking noise from the rear wheel when riding.  I couldn't replicate the noise on the workstand with no weight on the wheel.  Shortly after the noise appeared, it broke a spoke at the elbow, so I replaced the broken spoke, swapped it to the solo bike and its been fine since.  I still intend to rebuild it with a Sputnik rim and Sapim strong spokes so that I have a ready built spare to swap with the tandem if I have to.  It helps that I quite enjoy wheel-building though

I also went to the trouble of checking the accuracy of my Park tools tensionometer by making up a rather Heath-Robinson spoke test rig with a digital strain gauge.  The Park tools gauge is great for checking spoke tension consistency, but the associated calibration / conversion chart is way off for checking the actual KGF value - over-reading by about 30 KGF or more.   I checked it with the Woosh, Sapim race and Sapim strong spokes.  I also checked the Park tools gauge against a known good wheelset.  According to the gauge, the readings were also well over what they should have been (they weren't). 

For the avoidance of doubt, I still rate Woosh very highly as a supplier as their kits are well specified and are genuinely 'plug & play'.  They are UK based and customer support is readily available.  In fact, I've recently requested a version of my motor controller configured for current control rather than the default setting of speed control.  Woosh are looking to modify the firmware load to suit.  I doubt I'd be able to get that sort of service from a Chinese supplier.

Well I wouldn't argue with your experience. However in over 40 years of wheel building I've never used a spoke tension meter. But my experience of building motorcycle wheels which use much heavier gauge spokes than bicycles, but more like those that Woosh supply with their wheels. is that they require A LOT of tension as there is very little elasticity in them and they therefore struggle to hold tension unless very tight.

I'm very interested in your request for a current control controller firmware, as I would prefer this rather than preset speeds of the extant controller. Which controller do you have and is it a simple matter of a frimware update or does it require a different controller? Like you I have found Woosh very good to deal with.

You're clearly a lot more experienced in building wheels than I am, I use a tensionometer to (hopefully) help compensate for my failings and have been happy with the results.  Agree that the Woosh plain gauge spokes do need a lot of tension.

I'll keep you posted on the current control firmware.  Woosh are active on the 'Pedelecs' web-site and they mentioned in one thread that they now ship complete bikes with  current control, but their kits still have speed control.  Apparently, they can load whichever firmware you want at the time of ordering.  I have two kits with Lishui controllers and I emailed Woosh support to ask about changing to current control.  My kits are 48 volt and at the moment, they only have a current control firmware load for 36 volt bikes.  They are checking availability of 48 volt firmware with their supplier.  I haven't tried current control, but it does seem quite popular over at 'Pedelecs'.  Woosh support commented that it is very much a personal preference - some people like speed control, some prefer current control.  I suspect that the present speed control system will be the better option on my tandem and that current control a better fit for my solo.  We'll see!

I decided to request a new controller programmed with the current control firmware.  It is possible to return your existing controller to Woosh for re-programming, but I thought I'd just ask for new bits to swap over. I think their complete bikes are shipped with an LCD display that offers a bit more in the way of user configuration than my 'King Meter' LCD, so I may swap that too.  I'll update this thread or PM you when I have more to report.

[iandusud]

I'll keep you posted on the current control firmware.  Woosh are active on the 'Pedelecs' web-site and they mentioned in one thread that they now ship complete bikes with  current control, but their kits still have speed control.  Apparently, they can load whichever firmware you want at the time of ordering.  I have two kits with Lishui controllers and I emailed Woosh support to ask about changing to current control.  My kits are 48 volt and at the moment, they only have a current control firmware load for 36 volt bikes.  They are checking availability of 48 volt firmware with their supplier.  I haven't tried current control, but it does seem quite popular over at 'Pedelecs'.  Woosh support commented that it is very much a personal preference - some people like speed control, some prefer current control.  I suspect that the present speed control system will be the better option on my tandem and that current control a better fit for my solo.  We'll see!

I decided to request a new controller programmed with the current control firmware.  It is possible to return your existing controller to Woosh for re-programming, but I thought I'd just ask for new bits to swap over. I think their complete bikes are shipped with an LCD display that offers a bit more in the way of user configuration than my 'King Meter' LCD, so I may swap that too.  I'll update this thread or PM you when I have more to report.

I also have the 48V kit with the Lishui controller. I look forward to your updates. The only other criticism I have of the kit is that I think I'd prefer a torque sensor rather than the speed sensor as I sometimes find that power comes in stronger than I really want or need and I feel that if it used a torque sensor I would be able to control it better.

[Jodel]

I find that the speed sensor is fine on the tandem, but a bit all or nothing on the solo although you do adapt your riding style to suit.  Overall though, I quite like the speed sensing as I have a dodgy ankle (better some days than others) and I think torque sensing might not be so good in my case.  I bought the same motor kit for my solo so that I'd have parts interchangability between the bikes.  The oomph from the motor when fitted to the the solo is probably a bit overkill.  I thought that current control might help modulate the assistance a bit better than the present 5 speed levels on my King Meter LCD.  If you are really struggling, with speed sensing you can always 'ghost pedal' in an emergency which I quite like to have as an option.