Author Topic: Raynaud's Syndrome? (Read 12096 times)

hellymedic · « **Reply #50 on:** 18 April, 2019, 04:01:30 pm »

Flite, I suspect short-term capillary shut-down does little long-term damage.

Anecdata: my grandfather's fingers went white for decades but he died at 94 with all his digits in situ. My digits also go white when cold but are usually in good condition, with no signs of gangrene or permanent damage.

Limbs withstand poor or no blood flow for MUCH longer than vital organs like heart or brain. There are limits though.

Flite · « **Reply #51 on:** 18 April, 2019, 04:28:19 pm »

Thank you Helly and Chris.
That has cheered me up!

Man in a tree · « **Reply #52 on:** 18 April, 2019, 05:41:41 pm »

Can I throw into the mix that numbness and discoloured fingers/nails can be caused by a clot in an artery? It hurts too, which in general Raynaud's doesn't.

hellymedic · « **Reply #53 on:** 18 April, 2019, 07:35:06 pm »

Clot in an artery is a surgical emergency:
DO NOT PASS GO!
GO DIRECTLY TO HOSPITAL!

Consider asking someone to give you small amounts of cash for inevitable incidentals in the fullness of time...

An extremity with a blocked artery is
Pale
Painful (agonising, unbearable)
Pulseless
Perishingly cold
Numb (Paraesthesia)

Delay can cause loss of limb so act PDQ!

Arterial disease is one of the awful underpublicised problems caused by smoking.
A clot from a heart with atrial fibrillation can migrate.

Exit Stage Left · « **Reply #54 on:** 22 April, 2019, 09:27:10 pm »

Quote from: hellymedic on 18 April, 2019, 01:39:29 pm

<pedant> Raynaud's Phenomenon is not Raynaud's Syndrome/Disease, though it is a feature thereof...

The whole area is usually referred to as 'Hand Arm Vibration Syndrome'.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/vibration/hav/index.htm

mrcharly-YHT · « **Reply #55 on:** 23 April, 2019, 08:40:57 am »

To demonstrate how 'stupid' raynaud's, this morning I rode in with fingerless mitts. 9C, don't need gloves. Hands were fine, got to work with them slightly cool. Pop into work shower. Hot water hits them, circulation immediately shuts down. Then a minute later pins and needles as they wake up "Oh, warmth, circulation can be restored.".

FFS

ElyDave · « **Reply #56 on:** 27 November, 2020, 07:21:52 pm »

Is it possible to have Raynaud's in the feet?
Anyone else have similar symptoms?
If so what do you do about it?

Lightning Phil · « **Reply #57 on:** 27 November, 2020, 07:25:19 pm »

What are you currently wearing? Properly winter ❄️ day today.

hellymedic · « **Reply #58 on:** 27 November, 2020, 07:30:28 pm »

I get white toes most of the year.

Mine are not painful.

I ignore.

ElyDave · « **Reply #59 on:** 27 November, 2020, 07:38:25 pm »

1) mine are effin' painful in the shower
b) today, in my unheated office, warm socks, shorts and a merino top, later in the gym on the turbo (unheated) same socks, shorts and a t-shirt until warm

It's the only bit of me I have trouble keeping warm on winter rides

rafletcher · « **Reply #60 on:** 27 November, 2020, 07:41:57 pm »

Me too. Full winter fig today, including Northwave Arctic boots. Lasted an hour before the usual numbness set in, cold when I got home half an hour later. Soon warmed in the shower, but now, sitting watching the TV, they’re getting cold again. Just poor circulation I think. I get cold numb toes on the shed turbo too.

chrisbainbridge · « **Reply #61 on:** 27 November, 2020, 09:26:42 pm »

Raynaud’s geek here. Do they actually go white circumferentially or just pale and blotchy? Full Raynauds is usually numb when white and painful on rewarding.
Cold painful digits is more likely to be some form of chilblains or perniosis.
You can certainly get it in the feet. More common in cold humid conditions.

ElyDave · « **Reply #62 on:** 27 November, 2020, 09:55:27 pm »

Toes go what I would describe as waxy, then go plum or grape purple on rewarming in the shower.

Numb when white is a good description, I didn't notice it until showering this evening. In my case normally followed by increased sensitivity afterwards, just sitting here my feet are buzzing/burning/stinging

I'm also wondering any T1D link to raise with the consultant next month?

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #63 on:** 27 November, 2020, 10:51:25 pm »

I was going to say do diabetic peeps not really need to look after their feets due to neuropathy?

hellymedic · « **Reply #64 on:** 28 November, 2020, 02:12:09 am »

My toes go dead, waxy white.
My fingers seldom do this but it has been known.

I had chilblains as a kid and again in my 40s. My fatty bits go purplish.

I refuse to worry about this as it affected my grandfather, who lived to a ripe old age without this being a problem. He had vascular dementia towards the end though. (Something has to go when you're widowed and in your mid 90s.)

Andy W · « **Reply #65 on:** 28 November, 2020, 08:09:49 am »

Ely Dave, yes one can get Reynauds in the feet as well as the hands. SRUK Is as excellent uk based mine of information regarding this often painful condition.
I get identical symptoms as yourself. With regard to cycling, I bought a pair of Northwave Celcius Arctic boots five years ago. I place them in the airing cupboard (in a bin liner) overnight. Good for about 90 minutes in near freezing conditions.
I wonder if diabetes plays a part. Are you T1? I have some pre diabetes symptoms.
Grandmother and Mum and her 5 siblings all type 2 from 50 years. 3 uncles had heart bypasses at around 60 none particularly overweight. I'm 60 in January 2021. I run and cycle to keep fit and healthy. Diabetes can lead to peripheral neuropathy, so I conclude the two are linked. I used to enjoy long winter rides but getting numb hands and feet precludes this.

chrisbainbridge · « **Reply #66 on:** 28 November, 2020, 08:40:07 am »

Primary Raynauds can present for the first time in the 50s especially in men. The nerve fibres controlling temperature and blood flow are really small and may well be the first to be damaged even in well controlled diabetic neuropathy.
I have a sort of inkling that there is a variant of diabetic neuropathy which presents like this but I will need to look up some off my more esoteric Endnote library files

ElyDave · « **Reply #67 on:** 28 November, 2020, 10:25:27 am »

I am T1, from age 39, now 46. These symtoms predate my diagnosis by a couple of years, but do seem worse these days.

Yes- winter boots - Louis Garneau in my case
Socks - either mid-calf length thick toe-socks, or silk liner socks and thin merino socks on top.

No general loss of sensation or other diabetic foot-related issues, and I've always passed the filament test every year, but I am conscious of the risk.

Could extensive running be a contributor, in a similar fashion to VWF?

phantasmagoriana · « **Reply #68 on:** 28 November, 2020, 10:49:30 am »

Didn't want to derail the other thread (which is specifically about feet) but it reminded me that I'm fairly sure I've developed Raynaud's. Fingers go white and numb, then warming them up once inside is really painful. I've basically given up cycling in the winter because I just can't keep any feeling in my fingers and toes.

I think it's got worse over time - I certainly don't remember it being anywhere near as bad before the past few years. Is this something that can just develop? I'm wondering whether it might be caused by something, and if so, whether there's anything I can do to help!

chrisbainbridge · « **Reply #69 on:** 28 November, 2020, 11:47:05 am »

https://sci-hub.se/10.2174/157339912800564034
Will access a good review article but I can find others

NO extensive running would not be similar to VWF.

However NFCI or Non-Freezing Cold Injury is a real possibility. I see a number of cases of this.
http://militaryhealth.bmj.com/content/157/1/79.abstract paper herehttps://sci-hub.se/10.1136/jramc-157-01-14

chrisbainbridge · « **Reply #70 on:** 28 November, 2020, 12:54:12 pm »

Raynauds does develop at different times although the commonest age is in the second/third decade. That is known as primary raynaud's. Secondary raynaud's can be associated with about a hundred different conditions which are beyond the capability of the internet to diagnose.

Flite · « **Reply #71 on:** 28 November, 2020, 02:46:56 pm »

As I've got older and developed quite severe arthritis in my hands, the Reynaulds has also got worse.
I suppose having twisted and distorted fingers doesn't help the blood flow. Each problem makes the other worse.

Don't give up!
Get a flat bar bike and fit pogies/barmitts. I strongly recommend Hot Pogs, made in Nottingham in the sort of material used for Carradice saddlebags. I've never worked out why it works so much better than gloves/mitts, but it really does! Inside you create a little microclimate and can wear extra mitts, use disposable handwarmers, grow bananas...
So far this autumn I've managed without hotpogs - just Buffalo mitts which are also amazing.
But lower than minus 5 last night, so it's pogie time.

ElyDave · « **Reply #72 on:** 28 November, 2020, 05:00:20 pm »

To add in here, but not attempting derail, it's only my feet.

Winter gear for me for real low temps (down to about -2 to -3), I don't tend to go out when it's lower than that due to the ice risk

top down
- fleece-lined skullcap under helmet, covers ears
- fleece lined snood around neck/mouth
- merino baselayer, softshell with fleecy inside, waterproof if required
- silk liner gloves and either thermal gloves or lobster mitts
- roubaix lined tights, one pair does have winstopper on the knees/lower legs
- silk liner socks, merino socks, winter boots

The rest of my body is absolutely toasty, and in particular my hands, to the point of sweatiness.
It's only ever been my feet that suffer, whether on upright or recumbent

mrcharly-YHT · « **Reply #73 on:** 28 November, 2020, 06:09:05 pm »

Quote from: phantasmagoriana on 28 November, 2020, 10:49:30 am

Didn't want to derail the other thread (which is specifically about feet) but it reminded me that I'm fairly sure I've developed Raynaud's. Fingers go white and numb, then warming them up once inside is really painful. I've basically given up cycling in the winter because I just can't keep any feeling in my fingers and toes.

I think it's got worse over time - I certainly don't remember it being anywhere near as bad before the past few years. Is this something that can just develop? I'm wondering whether it might be caused by something, and if so, whether there's anything I can do to help!

If it is Raynaud's, you need to avoid sudden temperature changes. Going from cold to hot can trigger complete shutdown of circulation.

I could be paddling or cycling, out in the cold. Fingers ok.
Come inside to a warm room, or take a hot shower; circulation shuts down, fingers are dead white (usually just up to the first knuckle, sometimes up to my palms). Takes ages to get circulation back.

So:
Avoid sudden temperature changes (which can mean always using gloves).
Swing arms around to help re-open blood vessels.

Lightning Phil · « **Reply #74 on:** 29 November, 2020, 01:31:52 pm »

Quote from: Flite on 28 November, 2020, 02:46:56 pm

I strongly recommend Hot Pogs, made in Nottingham in the sort of material used for Carradice saddlebags. I've never worked out why it works so much better than gloves/mitts, but it really does!

Air is a poor thermal conductor. It’s why down works so well. It’s not the down per say that’s keeping you warm, but the loft which is trapping air. So with pogies you are creating quite a large area of still air round your hands which significantly reduces convention and conduction heat loses. Gloves or mitts don’t have a chance in comparison.

It’s also why shoes with thin socks and plenty of toe wriggle room are warmer than putting thicker socks on.

Same with why mitts are better than gloves. All that trapped still air.

Same reason string vests are so warm.