Help with frame related questions

[Tewdric]

As well as making frames I also make custom knives

Can I order a Dave Yates chef's knife?  Seriously?

[Oaky]

As well as making frames I also make custom knives.....

... I bet that quote set "oooh shiny!!! want!!!" alarms ringing in a good few forummers minds

[Oaky]

As well as making frames I also make custom knives

Can I order a Dave Yates chef's knife?  Seriously?

Um... +1!!!

[Bicycle Repair Man]

As well as making frames I also make custom knives

Can I order a Dave Yates chef's knife?  Seriously?

Alas Tewdric (and Oaky) I only dabble for my own amazement. Everything I have made up to now have been Bushcraft / outdoordsy style. I have never attempted a chefs knife or any othe kitchen type. All have been made from 01 gauge plate which is the classic beginners metal. I would guess that a chefs knife needs to be made of some sort of stainless, way outside of my current experience. The other problem is one of time, each one of the knives in the picture below, apart from the little kiridashi,  took the better part of the time it takes me to build a frame as I have to do most of it by hand. (A belt grinder is on the drawing board but that is as far as it has got) So at the moment it makes no commercial sense to make knives, where I dont really know what I am doing, rather than frames, where I do have a bit of a clue.

Cheers

Dave Yates



Edit

The handles, for those interested, left to right, antler brass and aluminium, buffalo horn, flat leather lace wrap, African Ebony and aluminium (prchased damascus blade) and burr walnut

[mzjo]

Hi Dave, I have a question.  Colour no. 28 on your colour chart - what happened?  I'm assuming it's pearlescent orange? 
It is actually Flamboyant Orange and alas I can no longer do that as the tin I had is finished and I cant get any more
You built me a beautiful 631 Super Randonneur a few years back in this colour.  People often comment about the colour, even non-cyclists admire it's sparkly beauty.  Why does no one have good taste any more? 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Seriously, what's your view on the current dash for titanium?  When you built my frame it was the thing to have (and IMO still is).  But as usual with me, it went out of fashion the very next day. 

The proliferation of titanium on most Scottish audaxes saddens me.  Who wants a grey bike?  Well, nearly everyone.  I'm not about to change and I've never ridden a Ti frame, but, in your opinion, is there any real advantage to them?
I too have never ridden a titanium frame so I can only comment from a theoretical standpoint. Talking to people that own then seems to indicate that they give a nice ride and they dont rust. By and large you cannot get a true custom Ti frame, ie talk to the builder and specify every last detail. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me otherwise  . There are probably American builders doing this but the cost will be astronomical. So the option for most is one of the many off the peg frames about and if that is what you want then fine !!! Down side is if it breaks or you have a crash and it is damaged, getting it repaired is a real nightmare not to say expensive if you can find  someone to repair it.
There is a difference between "want" and "need" we dont actually need most of what we want but if aquiring what you want makes you happy then go for it !!!!! Cycling is a very fashion conscious pastime so flavour of the month will always be an influence

Long live custom built steel.  Long live colourful frames. 

I'll drink to that

Cheers

Dave Yates

There was a french builder, Pilorget I think, who was offering a custom building service on titanium a few years ago. He had gone to a lot of trouble investing in the necessary equipment for welding in a totally controlled atmosphere. It is a few years since I saw the article on him so I don't know if he is still doing this but I don't see why not (although I am not trying to find out, I am not in that sort of market).

[Bicycle Repair Man]

There was a french builder, Pilorget I think, who was offering a custom building service on titanium a few years ago. He had gone to a lot of trouble investing in the necessary equipment for welding in a totally controlled atmosphere. It is a few years since I saw the article on him so I don't know if he is still doing this but I don't see why not (although I am not trying to find out, I am not in that sort of market).

Now then Mr mzjo,

I seem to remember such a guy now I think about it. I believe he had a sort of Argon chamber made of polythene sheet on a frame over his welding bench. The trick with ti is not to let atmospheric oxygen anywhere near hot titanium so you either use some sort of chamber filled with the shielding gas or a huge cup on your torch with complicated backpurging connections to the tubes to fill them with gas, either way it is expensive. Add to that the complication of one off sizing and the problem of producing such frames is quite large. Welded joints really need to be fitted very accurately so are ideally done on a milling machine set up of some description. Once you have the set up it makes a lot of sense to run a batch rather than just one tube. It depends on the definition of "custom" as to how the builder proceeds. My definition is start with a blank sheet of paper and every aspect of the frame is specifyable. Other builders define custom as "pick your own colour"

Cheers

Dave Yates

[border-rider]

By and large you cannot get a true custom Ti frame, ie talk to the builder and specify every last detail. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me otherwise  . There are probably American builders doing this but the cost will be astronomical.

I have a totally custom Ti frame; it did indeed come from the US but the cost was (at the time) rather less than a good UK custom steel frame.  Dearer now, of course, because of the exchange rate

[Hot Flatus]

I have a custom Ti frame. It cost me bugger all (£250) ordered direct from China

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Like I said, someone will be along to tell me otherwise 

In both cases, did the price include getting the frame into this country ?

[Salvatore]

And there's Darren Crisp in Tuscany.  All one-off. Upwards of 3000 euros for frame+fork.

[Hot Flatus]

Like I said, someone will be along to tell me otherwise 

In both cases, did the price include getting the frame into this country ?

Yes, although it was about 4 years ago. I think it would be almost double that now due to exchange rate changes. Of course, there is no warranty whatsoever, no pedigree and quality control is probably nonexistent. You get what you pay for, although sometimes you can pay a lot more for the same.

[mzjo]

And there's Darren Crisp in Tuscany.  All one-off. Upwards of 3000 euros for frame+fork.

The french builder I was thinking of would have been in the same price range, possibly more expensive, but he offered the same service with Ti that he did with steel. Yes, Dave, I think we are probably talking of  the same man. He insisted that most of the cheaper builders didn't purge and plug the insides of the tubes correctly before welding.

[mike]

Like I said, someone will be along to tell me otherwise 

In both cases, did the price include getting the frame into this country ?

Yes, although it was about 4 years ago. I think it would be almost double that now due to exchange rate changes. Of course, there is no warranty whatsoever, no pedigree and quality control is probably nonexistent. You get what you pay for, although sometimes you can pay a lot more for the same.

+1, I got two at about the same time.  Very happy with them and have done many 000's of miles between them. I believe JJ of this parish did PBP on one from the same supplier.

[JJ]

I did, and I like the result very much, although it took me about half a lifetime of sending drawings back and forth to get it just how I wanted it.

[sletti]

How do these dropouts work? Does the smaller part solder/braze on to the larger part once the rear geometry is established?

[Bicycle Repair Man]

How do these dropouts work? Does the smaller part solder/braze on to the larger part once the rear geometry is established?

Exactly that !! The pivot on the seatstay socket allows for a range of different seat tube lengths and still gets a perfect fit of seat stay into socket. I normally braze eveything solid and file / grind the joint flush so it disapears and the dropout is as one piece.

Cheers

Dave Yates

[sletti]

How do these dropouts work? Does the smaller part solder/braze on to the larger part once the rear geometry is established?

Exactly that !! The pivot on the seatstay socket allows for a range of different seat tube lengths and still gets a perfect fit of seat stay into socket. I normally braze eveything solid and file / grind the joint flush so it disapears and the dropout is as one piece.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Out of curiosity, could the recessed parts of the dropout be removed to make a lighter looking end, or would that adversely affect the strength of the part?

And to what extent does the "socketed" nature of the unions with chainstay and seatstay affect the choice of tubing?

Thanks

Stig

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Hi Stig

Out of curiosity, could the recessed parts of the dropout be removed to make a lighter looking end, or would that adversely affect the strength of the part?

It could, I personally would not unless the rider was very light. I have seen too many dropouts break to risk it.

to what extent does the "socketed" nature of the unions with chainstay and seatstay affect the choice of tubing?

The tube has to fit the socket reasonably closely. If the builder is using silver then a good fit is essential. A "good" fit in this case is up to about 5 thou clearance. Brass on the other hand can cope with rather larger gaps, anything up tp 20 thou (thats 0.5mm for the metrically inclined). A tight fit in both cases is a big no no.

Cheers

Dave Yates

[sletti]

The tube has to fit the socket reasonably closely. If the builder is using silver then a good fit is essential. A "good" fit in this case is up to about 5 thou clearance. Brass on the other hand can cope with rather larger gaps, anything up tp 20 thou (thats 0.5mm for the metrically inclined). A tight fit in both cases is a big no no.

Is the size of the gap twixt socket and tube to do with capillary action and how this relates to the specific viscosities of molten silver solder and brass?

Or is it down to the cost of Silver?

If you say the latter you may attract accusations you of being tighter than an Ewok's chuff!

Stig

[Bicycle Repair Man]

It is to do with the relative "strength" of the joining material. The commonly used 56% silver alloy is relatively weak compared to brass. The gap filling properties of this material are poor due to the fluid nature of the molten silver alloy. Accepted wisdom is a gap bigger than about 5 thou results in a weaker joint. Brass on the other hand is rather more viscous when it melts allowing it to fill gaps  and build fillets. With a tight joint you run the risk of no penetration and hence a potentially fallible joint.

Dave Yates

[MacB]

Dave, I was mooching on your site last night and noticed the use of some Paragon Sliders in a build on the custom frames gallery page. Though I have no real need I have a strong hankering for a SS steel frame in bright green that I could mix with red and black parts for my perfect colour scheme. Aesthetically I don't like the sliders but I do like their Rocker dropouts and I'd also want to go with disc brakes. The ability to mix and match inserts for SS, geared or hubgear/Rohloff is attractive as well. So the questions, finally :-

1. can you offer the rocker style as a build option?
2. do you have a personal preference/rating on types of dropouts/EBBs for tensioning purposes?
3. I'd quite like all steel but I don't see steel disc forks as an option on your site. Is it a case of carbon or buying some bog standard straight blade steel unicrown ones?
4. If it was steel unicrown ones can they be painted to match the frame?

Appreciate this may be more sales orientated so just say if I should contact you via your site instead....thanks...Al

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Al

1. can you offer the rocker style as a build option?

If you get them I will build with them.

2. do you have a personal preference/rating on types of dropouts/EBBs for tensioning purposes?

No, Its all one to me, customers choice

3. I'd quite like all steel but I don't see steel disc forks as an option on your site. Is it a case of carbon or buying some bog standard straight blade steel unicrown ones?

I dont do steel road forks for disc brakes. There are no blades available from Reynolds or Columbus that are suitable

4. If it was steel unicrown ones can they be painted to match the frame?

Yes !!!

Cheers

Dave Yates

[MacB]

Thanks Dave, most helpful, seems like I'll have to wait though, I only got my newsletter indicating new stock available on the rocker dropouts a few days ago. They've sold out again already, I'm guessing a lot of backorders as they'd been waiting on new machinery.

In the meantime though  can I ask you some general stuff around chainstay lengths and clearances. Is there any sort of formula to know what length you require for a given level of tyre clearance? Looking around at manufacturers specs and there seems to be a variety of lengths that claim big clearances, without resorting to bendy seat tubes etc. When I play around in CAD the dimensions I get just show the distance from tyre to ST at the shortest point. Assuming that in that space you want to fit guards and a derailluer, is their a minimum that it should be?

For example, if I want a 73 degree seatube, the Rocker dropouts and comfortable clearance for 700x40 tyres with full mudguards. Though the rockers increase CS length by 17mm I'd want the full clearance available in the shortest setting.

[Bicycle Repair Man]

In the meantime though  can I ask you some general stuff around chainstay lengths and clearances. Is there any sort of formula to know what length you require for a given level of tyre clearance? Looking around at manufacturers specs and there seems to be a variety of lengths that claim big clearances, without resorting to bendy seat tubes etc. When I play around in CAD the dimensions I get just show the distance from tyre to ST at the shortest point. Assuming that in that space you want to fit guards and a derailluer, is their a minimum that it should be?

For example, if I want a 73 degree seatube, the Rocker dropouts and comfortable clearance for 700x40 tyres with full mudguards. Though the rockers increase CS length by 17mm I'd want the full clearance available in the shortest setting.

I dont do "formulas"  With specific reqirements like this I take the rolling radius of the wheel, in this case I would guess around 350mm, add an allowance for mudguards and front mech, say 25+mm and set the jig up so the axle centre to seat tube is 375ish with the seat angle and BB height as required. See what it looks like, if I am happy with it I cut the chainstays to fit. The BB height or drop has a significant effect on the clearance. For a given chainstay length and seat angle raising the BB increases the clearance and vice versa.
As I have mentioned before, my "system" is very subjective, wet finger in the wind tempered by experience. If it looks right it probably is.
 I thought a cad was a fellow of dubious morals 

Cheers

Dave Yates

[MacB]

Aha, that actually makes sense, my bumbling efforts had told me that I wanted about a 30mm gap to ensure comfortable clearance for guards, derailleurs, etc.....thank you again...and I don't really think you're a CAD