A return to the Bad Old Days

[Wowbagger]

The introduction of all-seater stadiums was supposed to get rid of football hooliganism. However, stories I have heard from reliable pals/family make me think that the violent thugs are once again taking over the game. Firstly there is this dreadful incident, which occurred a couple of hundred yards from our front door.

http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/14283862.Cambridge_United_fan_left_for_dead_after_Southend_United_match_can_t_talk_or_move_legs/

Then a couple of pals who went, independently, to the recent Southend v Colchester match recounted the tale of a Southend thug who got out of his seat, wandered along the edge of the pitch and spent a happy few minutes throwing punches at anyone in the front row of the away supporters' area before wandering, unchallenged, back to his seat.

Last Wednesday my son went to London to celebrate his partner's birthday and arrived at Lpoo St just as a large number of Tottenham fans did so. They were being very threatening and he saw several incidents of people wearing W. Ham kit covering themselves with overcoats.

And then a conversation this evening with My Mate Terry Who Art in Sibton has confirmed all this. Terry, now in his late 60s, has been a lifelong Sunderland supporter. He is thinking twice about going to matches because of the threat of violence.

The cause of this increase in football-related violence? Cuts causing a lack of police presence at games.

[rogerzilla]

The police tend to make a risk assessment.  Oxford vs Swindon, or ANY Millwall away game, is policed very tightly.  For most games there is virtually no police presence because it's unnecessary.

[Wowbagger]

Southend v Anyone are like that. Police-free zones.

[Mr Larrington]

All-seater stadia will do nothing to prevent violence outside the ground, nor were they intended to.  They were introduced mostly as a reaction to incidents like Hillsborough.

[Cudzoziemiec]

What the Bear says.

As for violence and policing, when Newport County play Bristol Rovers their team coach gets a police escort.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Gary Pallister on his experiences at Manchester Utd:

I always found that the whole Liverpool experience got to me. The rivalry between the two clubs runs so deep that it is unhealthy[...]

When the venom is at its height, it is truly gruesome to experience. [...] The sheer, raw hatred is appalling, it should have no place in sport. [...]

Young fans asked [Beckham and Scholes] for their autographs, with which they duly obliged, only to see them ripped up in front of their faces. That was kids! Who taught them to hate like that? What do they think they're proving or showing? [...]

I remember driving into Elland Road to be greeted by a guy with a six-year-old on his shoulders and both father and son were sticking up the V sign at our bus, screaming bile at us. The man seemed so proud that his kid was doing that. What chance have we got of ever getting it right if people are teaching their sons in that way? It's total madness and it reflects badly both on football in particular and society in general. Educating kids to hate cannot be right.

[T42]

In the 70s, when Liverpool fans came over for a match at the all-seater Parc des Princes in Paris, they ripped off the thin, hard plastic seats and seat-backs and hurled them like frisbees at opposing supporters and the police.

[madcow]

Noo , that's not true. Liverpool fans were the victims at Hillsborough, they never did anything wrong, ever.
 Heysel, where's that then?

[fuzzy]

Football is a numbers game as far as public order is concerned.

Matches are categorised according to perceived risk. The category can rise or lower according to intelligence received beforehand.

Policing resources are allocated according to category. From every man and his dog (plus horses and barriers etc) right down to police free.

Normally every man, his dog, the horses and barriers etc. have fuck all to do. Occasionally they are run ragged and people go home with lumps (every man, his dog, the horses and supporters).

It is the police free games that used to scare me. Someone gets the intelligence wrong? Oxford haven't got a game so decide to turn up at Wycombe who are at home to Swindon? It all kicks off and there are no resources to deal with it so the routine policing of the town involved gets taken away so that the knob heads can be dealt with.

Ask the clubs to pay for the policing they receive and they get all whiney and belligerent.

I'm so very glad that all that is behind me, though swapping lumps with a knuckle dragger was at times entertaining.

[sg37409]

Rangers back in the SPL for next year.
Abused spouses of Scotland and NI beware.

[matthew]

I'm so very glad that all that is behind me, though swapping lumps with a knuckle dragger was at times entertaining.

So Fuzzy reveals the real way to be a football hooligan is to swear an oath, carry a warrant card and hide you number.  you can then not only pick your fight, but legitimately carry a truncheon and wear body armour. Finally it is the other party who gets charged and banned from all stadia.

Sorry Fuzzy, I am well aware of a dog handler in Birmingham who got dragged into the fans because the fans used programs in their sleeves as protection from the dogs bite. I believe the dog realised and went for a different and more sensitive part of the knuckle dragger's ^{TM Fuzzy} anatomy.

[caerau]

'Hooligans' are just arseholes who like fighting and laughing about it afterwards.  They will always exist and will always hijack onto the back of anything that provides the opportunity to meet their 'opponents' whoever they choose that to be.


That doesn't mean one can't mitigate against large groups of them amassing into armies like they managed in the 70s and 80s.


All seater stadia just prevent too many people being in a confined space and potentially getting crushed to death surely.  Stopping hooliganism within the ground is done by policing, surveillance and banning offenders (and education/making it progressively more socially unacceptable hopefully).

[fuzzy]

Don't get me wrong folks. I have worked with my fair share of knuckle draggers who thrived on the prospect of fisticuffs and were sometimes less than snowy white when it came to justifying their actions.

My joy in lump swapping was in identifying those that were ring leaders and needed detaining and making them an offer they could refuse- momentarily- "Oi you, your knicked for ABH? Affray/ Encroaching on to the playing area/ throwing missiles etc. You do not have to say anything........blah blah blah", at which stage they would generally resist by going hands on or trying to retreat or trying to get their fellow calloused knuckle brigade members to lend a hand. Reasonable force would then ensue and lumps would be proffered, accepted and returned accompanied by the visual soundtrack of an Adam West/ Burt Ward Batman scuffle (Biff! Oooof! Kapow! Boom! etc) before said knuckle draggers enjoyment of the match was curtailed by them being dragged bodily from the scene and placed gently into the back of a waiting personnel carrier.

[sg37409]

Gary Pallister on his experiences at Manchester Utd:

I always found that the whole Liverpool experience got to me. The rivalry between the two clubs runs so deep that it is unhealthy[...]

When the venom is at its height, it is truly gruesome to experience. [...] The sheer, raw hatred is appalling, it should have no place in sport. [...]

Young fans asked [Beckham and Scholes] for their autographs, with which they duly obliged, only to see them ripped up in front of their faces. That was kids! Who taught them to hate like that? What do they think they're proving or showing? [...]

I remember driving into Elland Road to be greeted by a guy with a six-year-old on his shoulders and both father and son were sticking up the V sign at our bus, screaming bile at us. The man seemed so proud that his kid was doing that. What chance have we got of ever getting it right if people are teaching their sons in that way? It's total madness and it reflects badly both on football in particular and society in general. Educating kids to hate cannot be right.

In Scotland we have separate schools to help perpetuate the bigotry, not to mention waste more money.

[Pancho]

The cause of this increase in football-related violence? Cuts causing a lack of police presence at games.

The clubs pay for the policing. The policing level is determined by the police.

Ditto for our village fete.

[fuzzy]

The cause of this increase in football-related violence? Cuts causing a lack of police presence at games.

The clubs pay for the policing. The policing level is determined by the police.

Ditto for our village fete.

The policing level is suggested by the police. The club argues the toss about what they will pay for quoting the last needle match where there were 3 PSU's on duty (a PSU is 1 Inspector, 3 Sergeants 15 Constables for public order duties plus 3 drivers) plus evidence gatherers plus dog units plus the horses and nothing happened so was a waste of resources. No one outside of the policing family seem to comprehend that nothing happening can often be blamed on there being a lot of filth around. Proving a negative is difficult however.

As sure as eggs are eggs, should the clubs suggested level of policing be acceded to (as few as they can get away with) and the shit hits the fan with fights , property damage, disruption  to the match, chaos in the community, it will be the fault of the police because there weren't enough to deal with the disorder. DAHIKN. In fact, bollocks, I will tell you. Experience of being one of those blamed for the shit hitting the fan because there was only me and a couple of others despite our bosses protests is how I know this. 

[matthew]

And that is when the "filth" publish the minutes of the discussions where the clubs pushed the numbers down and approach the FA for a bringing the game into disrepute charge.


Matthew now wakes up from his dream where the accountants get to carry the can for their penny pinching.

[ElyDave]

Don't get me wrong folks. I have worked with my fair share of knuckle draggers who thrived on the prospect of fisticuffs and were sometimes less than snowy white when it came to justifying their actions.

My joy in lump swapping was in identifying those that were ring leaders and needed detaining and making them an offer they could refuse- momentarily- "Oi you, your knicked for ABH? Affray/ Encroaching on to the playing area/ throwing missiles etc. You do not have to say anything........blah blah blah", at which stage they would generally resist by going hands on or trying to retreat or trying to get their fellow calloused knuckle brigade members to lend a hand. Reasonable force would then ensue and lumps would be proffered, accepted and returned accompanied by the visual soundtrack of an Adam West/ Burt Ward Batman scuffle (Biff! Oooof! Kapow! Boom! etc) before said knuckle draggers enjoyment of the match was curtailed by them being dragged bodily from the scene and placed gently into the back of a waiting personnel carrier.

Nothing gentle about it according my cousin who used to do crowd control as a PC at Norwich, now a DCI I believe.

[spesh]

Don't get me wrong folks. I have worked with my fair share of knuckle draggers who thrived on the prospect of fisticuffs and were sometimes less than snowy white when it came to justifying their actions.

My joy in lump swapping was in identifying those that were ring leaders and needed detaining and making them an offer they could refuse- momentarily- "Oi you, your knicked for ABH? Affray/ Encroaching on to the playing area/ throwing missiles etc. You do not have to say anything........blah blah blah", at which stage they would generally resist by going hands on or trying to retreat or trying to get their fellow calloused knuckle brigade members to lend a hand. Reasonable force would then ensue and lumps would be proffered, accepted and returned accompanied by the visual soundtrack of an Adam West/ Burt Ward Batman scuffle (Biff! Oooof! Kapow! Boom! etc) before said knuckle draggers enjoyment of the match was curtailed by them being dragged bodily from the scene and placed gently into the back of a waiting personnel carrier.

Nothing gentle about it according my cousin who used to do crowd control as a PC at Norwich, now a DCI I believe.

"Yer 'onner, the suspect wot is claiming brutality on the part of Her Majesty's Ossifers is being economical with the verite, on account of 'is deliberately 'urling 'imself at various items of street furniture and the doors, roof and floor of the personnel carrier wot carried 'im back to the station, yer 'onner. Notawordofalieyer'onnercrossmy'eartan'everyfing..."

[ElyDave]

Don't get me wrong folks. I have worked with my fair share of knuckle draggers who thrived on the prospect of fisticuffs and were sometimes less than snowy white when it came to justifying their actions.

My joy in lump swapping was in identifying those that were ring leaders and needed detaining and making them an offer they could refuse- momentarily- "Oi you, your knicked for ABH? Affray/ Encroaching on to the playing area/ throwing missiles etc. You do not have to say anything........blah blah blah", at which stage they would generally resist by going hands on or trying to retreat or trying to get their fellow calloused knuckle brigade members to lend a hand. Reasonable force would then ensue and lumps would be proffered, accepted and returned accompanied by the visual soundtrack of an Adam West/ Burt Ward Batman scuffle (Biff! Oooof! Kapow! Boom! etc) before said knuckle draggers enjoyment of the match was curtailed by them being dragged bodily from the scene and placed gently into the back of a waiting personnel carrier.

Nothing gentle about it according my cousin who used to do crowd control as a PC at Norwich, now a DCI I believe.

"Yer 'onner, the suspect wot is claiming brutality on the part of Her Majesty's Ossifers is being economical with the verite, on account of 'is deliberately 'urling 'imself at various items of street furniture and the doors, roof and floor of the personnel carrier wot carried 'im back to the station, yer 'onner. Notawordofalieyer'onnercrossmy'eartan'everyfing..."

ezackly

[MikeFromLFE]

'Hooligans' are just arseholes who like fighting and laughing about it afterwards.  They will always exist and will always hijack onto the back of anything that provides the opportunity to meet their 'opponents' whoever they choose that to be

Quite.
My secondary school (1966-1972) was equidistant from Arsenal and Tottenham.
Much to my father's disgust I lost any interest in football during my time there, and have had no interest in any sport since.
I wasn't the fighting type.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I met an ex football hooligan once.

He used to go to the matches with his mates with the sole purpose of smashing people up. Get tanked up before arriving at the match. Get at the top of the stands, make a line, link arms and start jumping down the crowd together. Then just punch anyone in front of them.

One day in a pub he got in a fight and nearly beat someone to death. Somehow managed to avoid arrest. Was so horrified by what he'd done, he gave up alcohol completely, there and then. Went to a football matche with his hooligan mates and not only found it wasn't fun, was disgusted by that as well. Never went to another football match.

[De Sisti]

Gary Pallister on his experiences at Manchester Utd:

I always found that the whole Liverpool experience got to me. The rivalry between the two clubs runs so deep that it is unhealthy[...]

When the venom is at its height, it is truly gruesome to experience. [...] The sheer, raw hatred is appalling, it should have no place in sport. [...]

Young fans asked [Beckham and Scholes] for their autographs, with which they duly obliged, only to see them ripped up in front of their faces. That was kids! Who taught them to hate like that? What do they think they're proving or showing? [...]

I remember driving into Elland Road to be greeted by a guy with a six-year-old on his shoulders and both father and son were sticking up the V sign at our bus, screaming bile at us. The man seemed so proud that his kid was doing that. What chance have we got of ever getting it right if people are teaching their sons in that way? It's total madness and it reflects badly both on football in particular and society in general. Educating kids to hate cannot be right.

In Scotland we have separate schools to help perpetuate the bigotry, not to mention waste more money.

What get's my ire (as a Mancunian now living in the Cotswolds) are the ManU fans down here who think that they
have to hate ManC. I mean, it's not as if they go into the office/factory/pub every day and have banter with City fans
if City win and Utd lose. 

[rogerzilla]

I went to the Oxford/Swindon JPT game at the Kassam in October.   It's the only time I've ever driven out of a car park through a police cordon.  Oxford are likely to go up a league for next season so will meet Swindon at least twice 

[Tigerrr]

I have never watched a football match, since being beaten up by Oxford fans in the centre of Swindon one Saturday in the early 70s. I felt I learned everything there was to know about the game in about 2 minutes, and nothing I have heard or seen in passing since has done anything to suggest otherwise.