Author Topic: Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?  (Read 13188 times)

Sigurd Mudtracker

Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?
« on: 21 October, 2009, 09:33:54 pm »
Firstly, as a Moulton rider of nearly 20 years I am well aware that Moultons are demountable as the Good Doctor says, and nor folders.

I am the proud possessor of a 19 year old AM14 that I got second hand and which I have extensively altered over the years - it's now an Ultegra/XT powered AM18 and was for a while an AM27.  There's not much that's original on it.  It's by far my "best bike".  I've also got two Moulton Mk 1s (a Standard and a Deluxe) and a Mk 2 Major that's as old as I am.  Moultons have a habit of gathering in my garage.

I'm contemplating the addition of yet another and am wondering about a TSR 30 (drop bar version, must be separable).  I'm reasoning that it might go a bit better on the rough forest tracks I occasionally find myself on, and would be an alternative to the AM when I'm not so keen on taking out the "best bike".

Is there anyone out there who has experience of AMs versus TSRs?  My Dad had a Pashley APB S7 several years ago and I was somewhat underwhelmed by it - but the TSRs seem an altogether better different thing.  I'm also interested in getting hold of a frameset rather than a factory one to get the bike just right, but no-one seems to advertise them on my initial web investigations.

dasmoth

  • Techno-optimist
Re: Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?
« Reply #1 on: 21 October, 2009, 10:52:22 pm »
Avon Valley Cyclery do some custom builds (both Pashley and Moulton Moultons), so it might be worth asking them about the frames.  Or just talking over your preferred spec with them and seeing what they can come up with.

     http://www.foldingbikes.co.uk/

But as for your main question...  I'm curious too.  I asked pretty much exactly that in an LBS which had a couple of Moultons on display, but apart from a fairly non-specific comment on component quality, I didn't learn a lot.
Half term's when the traffic becomes mysteriously less bad for a week.

Re: Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?
« Reply #2 on: 22 October, 2009, 10:42:29 am »
I think my new-to-me TSR would be great on hard-packed tracks, the limit would be the skinny tyres I've got fitted (so they fit under mudguards)

try mailing moulton direct (office@moultonbicycles.co.uk), they seem v. helpful.

Blah

  • Not sure where I'm going
Re: Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?
« Reply #3 on: 22 October, 2009, 01:35:30 pm »
The TSR is actually made in Stratford-on-Avon by Pashley, so you could try them too.

Re: Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?
« Reply #4 on: 22 October, 2009, 05:34:54 pm »
Moulton in BoA and Pashley in Stratford on Avon are now the same company as far as Moulton bicycles are concerned. The TSRs are still made at Pashley and the more expensive ones in BoA.

A new TSR will be better than an old AM simply because of the evolution of the design and manufacture over the years. But to use bigger tyres check the max tyre size quoted in the TSR specs on the website.

I had a 1986 AM7 which I have since sold. In 1989 I bought an ATB which I still have: very rugged and I use it for off road riding. The jigs for this were passed to Pashley to make the APB, and it is a modified version of these jigs used to make the TSR.

I recently acquired a TSR8 for my wife to use, though it is on lightweight Schwalbe Stelvio tyres. Seems a great bike so far!

My main bike is a double pylon New Series - an indulgence I have never regretted. It's better than the AM in my opinion, but rationally not by the same amount as the price ratio!

Overall I'd say the TSR represents the best value for an all-round bike.

Sigurd Mudtracker

Re: Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?
« Reply #5 on: 22 October, 2009, 08:22:05 pm »
I think maximum tyre size on the TSR 30 is 28mm, though I have seen photos on the web of someone who squeezed in 40mm Marathons (without mudguards).

One of the other potential advantages of the larger wheel is also bound to be the gearing.  I have a 10T sprocket and a 62T chainring to give a decent top gear on my AM.

I may yet be tempted.  After all the TSR does have the magic "Reynolds" sticker on it!

Blah

  • Not sure where I'm going
Re: Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?
« Reply #6 on: 23 October, 2009, 08:38:28 am »
On my old TSR - now Mike's - with 28mm Schwalbe Stelvios and mudguards there was still oodles of space left. I'm pretty sure you'd be able to fit 32s or even 35s in there.

Note that you probably wouldn't be able to go as high as 62 on the TSR because the front derailleur braze on would not accommodate the FD high enough.

Note also that some TSRs come with dual pivot brakes, others come with V-brakes. My old TSR doesn'thave the V-brake bosses.

Of course to go down to a 10T sprocket you would have to go with the [forgotten the name of the specific Shimano small wheel gruppo], which I understand is not a high-end gruppo. I thought long and hard about going down this route and decided against it as it would mean a specific hub, derailleur, cassette and possibly chain, I can't remember. They are not easy to get hold of either.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?
« Reply #7 on: 23 October, 2009, 10:10:16 am »
Capreo is a 9-26t 9sp cassette.  It requires a specific hub and cassette, nothing else.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Blah

  • Not sure where I'm going
Re: Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?
« Reply #8 on: 23 October, 2009, 11:21:36 am »
Capreo is a 9-26t 9sp cassette.  It requires a specific hub and cassette, nothing else.

Thanks, knew somebody would know the details. Shoddy memory, mine.

Can you get a 10T with a normal cassette then?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?
« Reply #9 on: 23 October, 2009, 11:43:22 am »
The short answer is no.

The long is not easily:
- There were several aftermarket 10t cogs (TNT and Moulton + others, I think) designed to replace a Hyperglide lockring and adding an additional cog (usually 7 to 8 or 8 to 9) but they requiring respacing the axle and increasing the dish.  If you can find these obsolete parts, they aren't spaced to suit current 9 sp set-ups.  You may be able to get it to work though.
- Moulton offered 9-11-13 and 10-11-13 cogs machined out of solid to replace the top cog on Regina freewheels (also another brand that I can't recall).  They were stupidly expensive and were always rare.

It is possible to change cogs and to narrow the range of a Capreo cassette e.g. 9-21t.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Sigurd Mudtracker

Re: Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?
« Reply #10 on: 23 October, 2009, 09:15:31 pm »
My AM has now got a Hope rear hub (with "AM" tastefully engraved on the shell) and a Shimano-esque 9 speed cassette body with a 10T top sprocket - I can't quite remember but think there is a lock ring securing everything together.  But I was intimating that the advantage of 20" over 17" wheels is that you wouldn't need such specialist kit and that normal bike components would do the job nicely.  Before the Hope wheel came into my possession I had a standard Ultegra hub with a 11-32T cassette - unfortunately with the 62T chainring the chain fouled the "seatstays" in top gear.  I got round it by fitting the wheel a few mm lower in the vertical dropouts - not ideal, but I didn't have any problems with it.

ICE make a modified Shimano hub, available as a complete wheel for upgrading older trikes, that accepts a 9-32T cluster for their recumbent trikes.  However it will be 135mm OLN and I suspect the road-orientated groupsets on the TSRs will mean 130mm between dropouts.  Plus I think the ICE wheel will be dishless - think they have asymmetric rear ends.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?
« Reply #11 on: 23 October, 2009, 11:57:09 pm »
My AM has now got a Hope rear hub (with "AM" tastefully engraved on the shell) and a Shimano-esque 9 speed cassette body with a 10T top sprocket - I can't quite remember but think there is a lock ring securing everything together.

<SNIP>

ICE make a modified Shimano hub, available as a complete wheel for upgrading older trikes, that accepts a 9-32T cluster for their recumbent trikes.  However it will be 135mm OLN and I suspect the road-orientated groupsets on the TSRs will mean 130mm between dropouts.  Plus I think the ICE wheel will be dishless - think they have asymmetric rear ends.

A 10t cog won't fit over a 'normal' cassette body.  It either has to be threaded into the lockring position or the cassette body has to be stepped down.  Doesn't the Hope cassette hub use a Moulton-specific arrangement with a shortened cassette body and both smallest cogs machined from one piece?

I modified a TSR to take a Rohloff (135 OLN) and didn't need to spread the swingarm.  From memory, it measured out to be 134 mm or 135 mm.

ICE uses the Capreo hub.  Greenspeed also do a cartridge bearing hub designed to take the Capreo cassette.  Both are 135 mm OLN.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Sigurd Mudtracker

Re: Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?
« Reply #12 on: 24 October, 2009, 01:46:19 pm »

A 10t cog won't fit over a 'normal' cassette body.  It either has to be threaded into the lockring position or the cassette body has to be stepped down.  Doesn't the Hope cassette hub use a Moulton-specific arrangement with a shortened cassette body and both smallest cogs machined from one piece?


I'm sure you're right.  It's been a while since I last took the cassette off, or I've got a very poor memory...  ;D  I know the original Dura Ace hub that came on the bike had a shortened cassette body and a three (9, 10, 11T) sprocket cluster that screwed directly on.

Blah

  • Not sure where I'm going
Re: Moulton TSR vs AM: what's the difference?
« Reply #13 on: 27 October, 2009, 03:02:03 pm »
However it will be 135mm OLN and I suspect the road-orientated groupsets on the TSRs will mean 130mm between dropouts. 

TSRs accommodate both 130 and 135 OLN. ISTR they are one of those 132.5mm that you spread out or compress. Certainly I've always noticed that the dropouts were a bit wide with the road hubs I had in them.