Author Topic: Tour de France 2012  (Read 143044 times)

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #325 on: 10 July, 2012, 02:15:01 pm »
The French press have been very quick to point out that the case was opened when Di Gregorio was riding for Astana,


That figures, perhaps...

Quote
but it doesn't look great for Cofidis either - even if the team was nothing to do with his doping, if he was carrying on doping after he joined them, it doesn't reflect well on their internal controls. You'd have thought that Cofidis in particular would have learned that lesson.

Indeed. Millar all those years ago, now blackening the name of Wiggo. Oh, there's an idea...
The journey is always more important than the destination

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #326 on: 10 July, 2012, 02:25:32 pm »
Indeed. Millar all those years ago, now blackening the name of Wiggo. Oh, there's an idea...

Not what I meant, actually.

I'll rephrase:

"Millar done for doping when with Cofidis all those years ago, now someone else using Cofidis to blacken the name of Wiggo."
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I am not a smoker but it is friends that are ex-smokers that seem to rant on more than I do about how selfish smokers are when smoke drifts our way. Maybe it's the same with other drugs.

Dunno,  but Millar has put most of his money into founding Slipstream aka Garmin-Slipstream/Barracuda/Sharp as a clean team.

But you're right about ex-smokers. Converts often make the best zealots.
The journey is always more important than the destination

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #327 on: 10 July, 2012, 02:39:00 pm »
Froome is Lemond to Wiggins's Hinault... Except Wiggins isn't nearly as exciting a rider to watch as Hinault.

Somehow I can't imagine Wiggo having fisticuffs with angry farmers blocking the route.  Le Blaireau decked the nearest one with a right cross and rode past the rest.

And people think badgers are cuddly!
The journey is always more important than the destination

Karla

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Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #328 on: 10 July, 2012, 03:09:29 pm »
Watch the Wiggins - spectator interface on the right of the shot.  This is 2009 so he's wearing Garmin kit.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/i-hJue9ltyA&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/i-hJue9ltyA&rel=1</a>

Also, note my new profile pic!

mattc

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Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #329 on: 10 July, 2012, 03:15:05 pm »
 ;D
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Justin(e)

  • On my way out of here
Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #330 on: 10 July, 2012, 03:58:46 pm »
Dunno,  but Millar has put most of his money into founding Slipstream aka Garmin-Slipstream/Barracuda/Sharp as a clean team.
But you're right about ex-smokers. Converts often make the best zealots.

I think we should have life bans on all the cheaters, they are the ones who have despoiled cycling in the first place.  Get rid of the Bjarne Riis' and the David Millar's and start again with the Sky like teams.  I am still angry at these cheats.

If in fact cheating were rife, and if the majority of the people who got the top mark in the last twenty years had been revealed to have cheated at some point, then this would be a fair question, wouldn't it? In such a circumstance, an honest exam taker ought to be angry at the cheaters, and at the people running the corrupt exam system which allows the cheaters to profit from their cheating, not at the people who are legitimately asking questions about it.

EDIT: Spelling

Justin(e)

  • On my way out of here
Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #331 on: 10 July, 2012, 04:01:40 pm »
Thanks jo. Just the sort of thing I was after.

People shamelessly pushing their way to the front reminds me of festivals where I’ve waited at the front for ages for the headline act…or even London Transport…thanks for the warning.

It really is an experience - one thing I remember was not knowing who won the sprint till the next day - despite accidentally being in the perfect position to watch the finish.

If you want to move around at all (rather than spend hours in the same position) take a little portable foldable ladder.  You can then be at the back of 4 rows of people and still see lots.

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #332 on: 10 July, 2012, 04:02:20 pm »


I think we should have life bans on all the cheaters, they are the ones who have despoiled cycling in the first place.  Get rid of the Bjarne Reese's and the David Millar's and start again with the Sky like teams.  I am still angry at these cheats.

It must be nice to be so perfect you can never understand why anyone else should be forgiven if they are contrite. Have you really never done anything you've been ashamed of? And it's Bjarne Riis.
The journey is always more important than the destination

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #333 on: 10 July, 2012, 04:13:04 pm »

I think we should have life bans on all the cheaters, they are the ones who have despoiled cycling in the first place.  Get rid of the Bjarne Reese's and the David Millar's and start again with the Sky like teams.  I am still angry at these cheats.

Maybe we should have a lifetime ban on forum posting for those who misspell people's names... :)
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Justin(e)

  • On my way out of here
Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #334 on: 10 July, 2012, 04:16:54 pm »
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Has he always had a short fuse?
Well have you watched any of his other dozens of interviews? Or even listened to the rest of the press conference leading up to the twitter/drugs question?

No, which is why I asked the question; there was no side to it at all.  This internet is a dangerous place, isn't it?


From CN
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Sean Kelly has his doubts concerning Wiggins' psychological strengths.

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"Bradley has always been fragile, a puncture or another upsetting incident can make him lose his head

Wowbagger

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Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #335 on: 10 July, 2012, 04:21:03 pm »
If he has a known weakness then it's up to the coaches to do something about it. It's quite possible to put decent strategies in place for people who have short tempers and I'm certain, given how driven Wiggins appears to be, that this will have been dealt with. If it's likely to jeopardise the overall aim then you can rest assured that it will have been dealt with in training and preparation.
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Justin(e)

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Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #336 on: 10 July, 2012, 04:25:22 pm »
Maybe we should have a lifetime ban on forum posting for those who misspell people's names... :)

I appreciate that this is humour, but extending your metaphor: if this were a spelling competition and I cheated then it would be appropriate.

If I maintained vociferously and vocally that all those with evidence against me were liars.  And if when found out this cast a pall over all those who competed diligently and honestly, then I would have to say that I wouldn't belong in that competition any more.

I guess it is a difference of opinion over 'venial' and 'mortal' sins.  Everyone deserves a second chance for venial sins if they show some repentance. 

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #337 on: 10 July, 2012, 04:27:20 pm »
If he has a known weakness then it's up to the coaches to do something about it. It's quite possible to put decent strategies in place for people who have short tempers and I'm certain, given how driven Wiggins appears to be, that this will have been dealt with. If it's likely to jeopardise the overall aim then you can rest assured that it will have been dealt with in training and preparation.

Beta blockers are apparently good for that sort of thing, is it banned though and can it be detected?

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #338 on: 10 July, 2012, 04:28:37 pm »
If he has a known weakness then it's up to the coaches to do something about it. It's quite possible to put decent strategies in place for people who have short tempers and I'm certain, given how driven Wiggins appears to be, that this will have been dealt with. If it's likely to jeopardise the overall aim then you can rest assured that it will have been dealt with in training and preparation.

It's clearly something he's been working on though - he shipped his chain in the Tour of Romandie time trial but didn't let it affect him too badly there...

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #339 on: 10 July, 2012, 04:35:34 pm »
I guess it is a difference of opinion over 'venial' and 'mortal' sins.  Everyone deserves a second chance for venial sins if they show some repentance.

Millar hasn't just shown repentance, nor is his case just an example of the zeal of the ex-doper, he has provided his team with valuable practical insights as an ex-doper into how it happens and how riders can get away with it (don't forget he never tested positive), and how teams like Garmin can create the circumstances to help riders avoid the temptation to dope, and how to spot the signs if they are doping. People like Millar have a vital role to play in cleaning up the sport.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Wowbagger

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Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #340 on: 10 July, 2012, 04:40:01 pm »
If he has a known weakness then it's up to the coaches to do something about it. It's quite possible to put decent strategies in place for people who have short tempers and I'm certain, given how driven Wiggins appears to be, that this will have been dealt with. If it's likely to jeopardise the overall aim then you can rest assured that it will have been dealt with in training and preparation.

Beta blockers are apparently good for that sort of thing, is it banned though and can it be detected?

I'm talking about coaching and training. This is something I think I'm pretty good at, having trained lots of junior chess players to quite a high level. If you think, as I do, that the Will to Win doesn't really vary much one area of competition to another, and that "throwing a wobbler" is a sign of immaturity - a short-term set-back temporarily blocking the view of the long-term aim to the detriment of its achievement, it doesn't need to come out of a bottle.
Quote from: Dez
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Auntie Helen

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Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #341 on: 10 July, 2012, 04:47:03 pm »
Tony Martin is now out, I see, to enable his wrist to heal before the olympics.

It's not been a good tour for him, has it?
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #342 on: 10 July, 2012, 04:54:23 pm »
Can we please have two threads?

Tour de France 2012 (enjoying the racing)
and
Tour de France 2012 (cynically whining about drugs)
 ::-)

It's a rest day, what else are we suposed to talk about?  ;)

I agree a seperate discussion would be sensible

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #343 on: 10 July, 2012, 05:07:25 pm »
Wiggins has always been pretty sound on doping: in 2009 he conceded that public suspicion was reasonable ("I came from nowhere on the Tour and everyone knows where it's been with blood doping") and he made his blood passport figures public, which I think was brave.

He was magnificently outspoken in his 2008 autobiography:

Quote from: In Pursuit of Glory
"You bastard Landis", I thought. "You have completely ruined my own small achievement of getting around the [2006] Tour de France and being a small part of cycling history. You and guys like you are pissing on my sport and my dreams. Why do guys like you keep cheating? How many of you are out there, taking the piss and getting away with it? There is me trailing home 131st, and for all I know, I might be a top 50 rider if we all started on a level playing field. Sod you all. You are a bunch of cheating bastards and I hope one day they catch the lot of you and ban you all for life. You can keep doing it your way and I will keep doing it mine. You won't ever change me, you sods. Bollocks to you all. At least I can look myself in the mirror."

(RossBD, would you describe this as "cynical whining"?)

Now that he has the yellow jersey and his press conferences are reported worldwide, he has a chance to get his views on doping into the press and make a small difference. That's why I think it's a shame that he seems to be doing an Armstrong. But it's just one outburst and there will be plenty of opportunities for him to do better.

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #344 on: 10 July, 2012, 05:19:15 pm »
That's why I think it's a shame that he seems to be doing an Armstrong.

The difference being that Armstrong appears to be a humourless bully. Wiggins says what he thinks. Any Yorkshire in his ancestry?

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But it's just one outburst and there will be plenty of opportunities for him to do better.

Let's see: You struggle for two days running to just about keep the lid on Cuddles, who has a disconcertingly different way of doing things. Then you beat him hollow in a time trial because you're better at time trials (and always have been) and you've got your planning right. Then some cowardly arse on Twitter tells you you've been cheating.

I think I'd be a bit narked.
The journey is always more important than the destination

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #345 on: 10 July, 2012, 05:33:55 pm »
In that you're continuing the derailment of the thread into a discussion of which cyclists are taking drugs, yes I would.

No-one here is discussing which cyclists are taking drugs. We're discussing where Wiggins' (perfectly understandable) anger should best be directed: against dopers and the people who support them, or against the people who complain about doping?

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #346 on: 10 July, 2012, 05:45:09 pm »
Tony Martin is now out, I see, to enable his wrist to heal before the olympics.

It's not been a good tour for him, has it?
That's sad.  Respect to him for continuing, but it's probably the best decision to step off now.
Getting there...

mattc

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Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #347 on: 10 July, 2012, 05:52:11 pm »
How about a moratorium (sp?!?) starting at depart fictif on Wednesday? Then you'll all have had 10 days to talk about this ( and bring up books written in 2008).

Then maybe take it over to this 18 page thread.
or
http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=56373.msg1252713#msg1252713
or
[every pro Racing thread]

I understand you guys are upset by the drug-takers, but it ain't going to change during July 2012. So either sit back and enjoy the race, or shut the <Wiggo word> up. please desist from raising the sordid topic in this worthy and genteel arena.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #348 on: 10 July, 2012, 06:50:12 pm »
Bollocks to that. The answer to the question of which Tour riders are doping is 'most of them.' Given today's arrest of a Tour rider, doping questions are definitely part of the Tour de France 2012. Wishing the questions away is worse than useless.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #349 on: 10 July, 2012, 07:02:27 pm »
I understand you guys are upset by the drug-takers, but it ain't going to change during July 2012. So either sit back and enjoy the race, or shut the <Wiggo word> up. please desist from raising the sordid topic in this worthy and genteel arena.
ooh, what happens if you combine a Wiggo word and a boab word in the same sentence? I think we'll need a new phrase for that one!
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.