Author Topic: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.  (Read 6255 times)

Last week I intended to go ride near the Monsal trail but gave up on the idea due to the difficulty of getting the train there and back 3 different operators and ridiculously hard to reserve a space for the bike. Not to mention  the risk of a cancellation.

I then spotted this video from one of the YouTubers I watch kn occasion which perfectly shows how poor the provision is in the UK. I know the topic has come up before but I think this illustrates rhe issue really well.

https://youtu.be/-ortW-oCgwc

Does anyone have any recommendations on the best way to avoid these issues that doesn't just mean I should take the car?

Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #1 on: 05 April, 2022, 10:53:31 pm »
Without wishing to defend the poor service we get from the train providers - Getting to the Monsal trail is hindered by it being the rail line! With some local campaigners trying to kick the cyclists off and put the trains back, not that it's likely to happen.
There is no route across the Peak District, with or without a bike.  What lines there are - Derby>Matlock, Sheffield>Manchester, Manchester>Buxton, mostly use old rolling stock and they're all quite relaxed about letting bikes on, though I think they're all on a first come rather than booked basis.  I've used all those routes without problem.
As for how to deal with train travel generally, do more, leave plenty of time, avoid busy times and accept that it might not always go to plan, though IME disasters are rare. It's far from ideal, it should be better, but I haven't found it unusable for any trip I've made.

Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #2 on: 05 April, 2022, 11:07:39 pm »
Where is your starting point?

I have often felt that the most stressful part of any bike adventure is the train journeys to and from. They take a lot of organising and there is always the element of risk to journeys on what is fundamentally a fairly unreliable means of transport (trains in the UK). I have logged some real nightmares we have had on train journeys involving bikes, and camping within easy reach of the necessary station where we are booked the following day, elsewhere on this august forum.

My most recent effort, in the summer of 2019, involved meeting friends from Merseyside in Newport to ride the Lon Las Cymru, and then return to our various abodes by train. The journey out wasn't too bad: I travelled from Essex and had no problems crossing London and catching the train in Paddington. The others were already there to meet me. When we came back, it was a different story: we all had reservations from Holyhead, but at different times. Mine was the earliest and, whereas the others were heading for Chester, I was staying overnight with my brother in Shrewsbury, so we chose not to ride together. I pressed on, and the weather was so awful that I was glad I did. Really, really wet. I got to Holyhead with enough time to spare that I could buy myself some lunch in a greasy spoon. I got to the station in plenty of time.

Shortly before my train was due to leave, one of our party boarded. I can't recall what time his reservation was for. The other two waited for a later train: I didn't get to speak to them at that point because I was already in the carriage and the train was due to leave. Eventually we set off and when the guard came round to check tickets she said "It's a shame the others didn't catch this train as when the weather is as bad as this we just want to get people home, and never mind the reservations." I would say that it depends on the train operating company, but I have often found that there's quite a disconnect between the official policy of the company and the attitude of the people whose job it is to operate the trains. Virgin have always been totally obstructive jobsworths in my experience. Arriva Trains Wales staff were always much more co-operative.

However, we ended up in Chester in the pouring rain and it was at that point that I found out that my train on to Shrewsbury had been cancelled because of flooding/tracks sinking into mud/that sort of thing. The driver of the replacement bus agreed to take my bike. Otherwise, since I already had a ticket and a bike reservation, the train co would have been obliged to find me a taxi (I've had this before on other occasions).

Since covid I've only made two train journeys: one was when I bailed on a ride because my arthritis was playing up and the weather had taken a real turn for the worse, and the other was when on tour last September with AndrewC and Canardly. We were due to cycle form Ipswich to Norwich, but the forecast was for really wet weather so we got the train to Norwich and spent a soggy day seeing the sights, sitting in pubs and cafés and generally whiling away the time until, as late as possible, we put drenched tents up on a drenched campsite.
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #3 on: 06 April, 2022, 09:14:49 am »
In the video the guy appears to be buying tickets on Trainline then adding a bike reservation to that ticket on GWR.  Is that possible?  Why not do it all on GWR?

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #4 on: 06 April, 2022, 11:13:19 am »
In the video the guy appears to be buying tickets on Trainline then adding a bike reservation to that ticket on GWR.  Is that possible?  Why not do it all on GWR?

Do trainline still add extra commission?

Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #5 on: 06 April, 2022, 01:28:39 pm »
When we used to take trains from Rugby up to Thurso or Oban for our islands tours I would use the network rail site to work out what trains I wanted then visit the station at a quiet time to get all of the human and bike tickets and reservations sorted in one go.

The rail network is only not fit for purpose because of political interference.  Shame really because we could get from Rugby to Oban in a day by train which is nigh on impossible in a car where only one person drives.

Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #6 on: 06 April, 2022, 03:08:58 pm »
I have used the trains quite a lot in the last 12-months or so.  However, I have noticed that the cost of some routes to be getting beyond a joke.

A single fare from Birmingham to York for example is now £73.00 or £153.00 return and I could drive there for a lot less than that.

Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #7 on: 06 April, 2022, 05:38:52 pm »
Imagine how it is for those of us unable to drive for legitimate reasons.

Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #8 on: 06 April, 2022, 07:27:38 pm »
I have been planning a tour to Scotland. We are cycling from Lancashire to Oban and then to Glasgow this June. One of my tasks was the train from Glasgow to Lancaster/Preston. I was expecting a nightmare booking experience. A look at the TrainLine site offered one way tickets at £13.20 on trains in late afternoon.A bit too good to be true I thought.I already knew that the four bikes per train rule so approached our local station (with a manned ticket office) with trepidation. I left the ticket desk 10 minutes later with !0 persons and ten bikes all booked and ticketed. Four on each of two trains and the last two cyclists on a later train.A fantastic service from Northern Trains.Also they matched the TrainLine price with no booking charge. Ten bikes and ten bodies for £132.



Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #9 on: 06 April, 2022, 09:20:24 pm »
Where is your starting point?

I have often felt that the most stressful part of any bike adventure is the train journeys to and from. They take a lot of organising and there is always the element of risk to journeys on what is fundamentally a fairly unreliable means of transport (trains in the UK). I have logged some real nightmares we have had on train journeys involving bikes, and camping within easy reach of the necessary station where we are booked the following day, elsewhere on this august forum.


I'd be starting at Huntingdon rail station and was planning in getting the train to Matlock. The plan was to cycle a loop including the trail and then head back on the train in the evening. The lack of certainty on if the trains will actually run means I just can't rely on that though.

Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #10 on: 06 April, 2022, 09:21:38 pm »
I have used the trains quite a lot in the last 12-months or so.  However, I have noticed that the cost of some routes to be getting beyond a joke.

A single fare from Birmingham to York for example is now £73.00 or £153.00 return and I could drive there for a lot less than that.

The cost was certainly quite steep. Not helped by the fact that I don't qualify for any sort of rail card.

Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #11 on: 14 April, 2022, 04:52:12 pm »
I ended up cycling from Ingleton to Penrith the other day and not wanting to ride to Glasgow.  Quick Facebook approach to GWR got me which trains could accommodate a bike that lunchtime, book the ticket, send Facebook the ticket number and 5 minutes later I had the reservation.  Could not have been easier.

Jaded

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Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #12 on: 14 April, 2022, 05:28:49 pm »
I have used the trains quite a lot in the last 12-months or so.  However, I have noticed that the cost of some routes to be getting beyond a joke.

A single fare from Birmingham to York for example is now £73.00 or £153.00 return and I could drive there for a lot less than that.

Not at 45p per mile you can't.

I'm sure if you were just paying for the fuel for the train it would be cheaper.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #13 on: 14 April, 2022, 09:33:11 pm »
I have used the trains quite a lot in the last 12-months or so.  However, I have noticed that the cost of some routes to be getting beyond a joke.

A single fare from Birmingham to York for example is now £73.00 or £153.00 return and I could drive there for a lot less than that.

Not at 45p per mile you can't.

I'm sure if you were just paying for the fuel for the train it would be cheaper.

Out of curiosity I have been working out what this would cost me with my 16yo Mégane. I don't know where the 45p/mile comes from, the distance Google gives me for Birmingham-York return is 266 miles or 436kms. My fuel costs at current french prices for E10 (which I understand are very close to UK prices) would be £43.41 (52.43€). I reckon as a rule of thumb total costs at double fuel costs (I am sure in my case this is an overestimate) which gives £86.82, a good bit less than £153!
My current fuel costs (a bit of a guess as it's early days for the conversion) would be 25.50€ but this is a bit academic since E85 doesn't exist in UK (£21.12 for the sake of arguement)

Jaded

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Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #14 on: 14 April, 2022, 11:16:34 pm »
The 45p is the figure that you are allowed to claim per mile for a journey, by the Inland Revenue. If you claim more, you pay tax on it. It is considered to be the average cost of running a car. Ownership, insurance, servicing, and so on.

It is probably low now, given the rise in fuel prices. The cost per litre is double what it was 20 years ago.

It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #15 on: 15 April, 2022, 09:18:30 am »
The 45p is the figure that you are allowed to claim per mile for a journey, by the Inland Revenue. If you claim more, you pay tax on it. It is considered to be the average cost of running a car. Ownership, insurance, servicing, and so on.

It is probably low now, given the rise in fuel prices. The cost per litre is double what it was 20 years ago.

Ah how folk have disagreed in threads of yore over the running costs of a motor vehicle.  🙂

It remains the case that folk consider the running costs of a car to be simply the fuel that goes in for any given journey forgetting everything else from replacing parts that wear or fail such as tyres, exhausts, wiper blades, the battery, various belts and the topping up of various fluids, servicing, insurance, VED where appropriate, parking charges, toll charges, congestion charges, insurance, etc.  I have not factored in purchase or lease costs but even an older car cost money to obtain.  I see average cars of 12 years vintage for sale locally for £3,000 minimum just now.  The secondhand car market has gone berserk.

Looking at the Motability scheme for the disabled I see that an average sized car costs nearly £300 per month and requires just fuel on top of that.  I would suggest then that car ownership costs around £300 per month before you use it.  Is that reasonable?

What I have also noticed is that train fares have risen significantly with far fewer bargains out there now.  It cost two of us over £100 for a day return to Lancaster from Rugby recently and that is with the benefit of a disabled persons railcard.  Would have been over £150 without.  Nice day out though and met up with a few friends whilst there.

Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #16 on: 15 April, 2022, 09:26:04 am »
The 45p is the figure that you are allowed to claim per mile for a journey, by the Inland Revenue. If you claim more, you pay tax on it. It is considered to be the average cost of running a car. Ownership, insurance, servicing, and so on.

It is probably low now, given the rise in fuel prices. The cost per litre is double what it was 20 years ago.

I think my boss was paying 50 centimes per km for work stuff which is more than the UK figure but less than the real cost if you weren't on diesel (work stuff being 9l/100km, whereas a long trip like this I would be doing 6.5l/100). For the rest I run as cheap as I can!

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #17 on: 16 April, 2022, 07:05:58 am »
If you already own or lease a car, the marginal cost of using it is way less than the train.  Even hiring can be cheaper.  We used to hire a car and drive to That London for conferences at Earl's Court because the hire cost, petrol and extortionate parking were under £100, compared to over £200 for the train for two people.  We'd much have preferred the train but the cost was too much.  It would have been a bit different for central London.

That is the eternal challenge of getting people out of cars: they have already paid most of the cost.  Car clubs might be an answer if there are no, or low, fixed fees.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Jaded

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Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #18 on: 16 April, 2022, 08:19:37 am »
It is all very well making those decisions on how to travel, but that is not the argument.

“Rail is so expensive if I make a comparison that ignores loads of costs of using a car”. Is a better way of putting it. If you add in the affect on the environment and community, then the costs of using a private vehicle are even greater.

You could, of course, tell the train company that you only wanted to pay them the cost of the diesel, or electricity….

It is simpler than it looks.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #19 on: 16 April, 2022, 12:12:37 pm »
A mate is currently on the train to Paddington. Some cockwomble has stuck all their luggage in his booked bike space although the luggage rack nearby has lots of space.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Jaded

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  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #20 on: 16 April, 2022, 12:43:07 pm »
We all know about cock-wombles that grab unbooked bike spaces  ;)
It is simpler than it looks.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #21 on: 16 April, 2022, 03:35:18 pm »
We all know about cock-wombles that grab unbooked bike spaces  ;)
At least I used it for a bike  ;D
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #22 on: 16 April, 2022, 04:05:03 pm »
The real running cost of owning and running a motor vehicle are of course a lot higher than the cost of a train ticket.  But, if either are used on a regular basis (car tax and insurance are only paid once a year) then I honestly believe it is cheaper to keep my car than to sell it.

I have also had to abandon plans which is so very annoying when trains get cancelled or are severely delayed.

Also, why are some train operators charging so much more than others per mile?  For instance, London to Birmingham prices aren't to bad but Birmingham to York is ridiculous

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #23 on: 16 April, 2022, 04:17:52 pm »
Using the car club gives me a more realistic cost for driving.  Of course, that means that the longer you spend with the car sitting doing nothing at your destination, the more expensive a journey is, so the break-even point depends on specific plans.  (Eg. A round trip to collect an item of furniture from Manchester is cheaper than camping in Long Itchington for the weekend.)

And of course you can't make a one-way journey and cycle back (or vice-versa) like you can with trains.  And carrying cycles is complicated (car will take an ICE trike without drama, where TOCs refuse on principle, but limited room for bikes *and* passengers).  Car is easier to book and slightly less likely to get cancelled due to engineering works[1].


[1] Happened to me a couple of weeks ago, and I ended up having to trek into town to collect a Corolla replacement Yaris.

Kim

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    • Fediverse
Re: Perfect example of why UK trains don't work for cycle touring.
« Reply #24 on: 16 April, 2022, 04:19:19 pm »
Also, why are some train operators charging so much more than others per mile?  For instance, London to Birmingham prices aren't to bad but Birmingham to York is ridiculous

Because BRITISH train tickets are legally required not to make sense.  One thing that can't be by accident are the huge discounts for a) commuting  and b) travelling via That London.