Yet Another Cycling Forum
Off Topic => The Pub => Food & Drink => Topic started by: slope on 04 September, 2020, 10:19:53 am
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Anyone got a lower end price (<£400) bean to cup machine they might wish to provide feedback on?
I'm no longer enjoying my venerable moka stove top coffee.
Or are coffee pod machines at all worth considering?
Requirements are ~2 cups of strong espresso coffee per day, one at least being larger than single shot cup (~150ml) with ~equal quantity of added hot milk, don't mind heating milk separately.
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I'm sure others more learned will add to this, but you will get far better quality coffee with separate grinder and coffee machines. Less convenient, but it all comes down to how much you value the taste of your coffee. My mate has a Gaggia B-t-C machine that cost a lot of money, yet my Gaggia Classic/Iberital MC2 combination beats the flavour of coffee hands down. My set up cost c.£375, including an after market bottomless portafilter.
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I have separate Sage (Breville) espresso machine and grinder. Decided not to go BTC as I use both espresso and french press and a separate grinder makes that much easier. I've had both > 3 years with no problems and a good cup of coffee. I went for the lower end of the range and do not think i lost out for doing so. Similar to you I go for a couple of cups a day of good quality espresso, in my case topped up with a bit of hot water.
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I've been through most of the coffee-making methods from stovetop moka pot to vacuum pot to manual espresso machine. I'm running a B2C (Delonghi Magnifica) these days, mainly because it's consistent and no-fuss. It's fine with good coffee, but I reckon a decent espresso machine + grinder would do better, if you can get the knack of consistent tamping, and don't mind a bit of extra faff with knock boxes and spilt grounds. Try and get a machine with a PID, otherwise you have to learn to temperature surf, which is a bore.
Main thing I like about the B2C is that I can bung a cup under the spouts, hit a button and do something else while it's working. Excellent if you have people in and have a string of shots to produce after a meal. You can also vary the strength & length of shots with no extra faff. In other words, they're made for lazy buggers like me.
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Much appreciate your responses so far, as always they make me think more about my original post/question.
So, to add some subsequent thoughts -
I'm not really interested in the 'best' coffee, cos I wouldn't want to know how to know and couldn't be arsed, really. And my taste and smell has deteriorated over the last 18 months.
I don't want to drink espressos particularly.
My ideal sense of coffee is a rich, strong, edgy darkness mixed with plain warmed hot milk - enough to provide a cup or bowl (if I'm feeling a bit Frenchie of a morning) ~ 250ml combined total.
I have absolutely no idea any of the current coffee nomenclatures, having never been in a "coffee house" and never will.
So perhaps consistency is what's lacking and am looking for, which my current moka stove top regime doesn't deliver, as well a disappointing thin bitterness, even when using expensive Illy.
Perhaps this information will help?
Thanks forumites :thumbsup:
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Your heading mentioned pods . . . we have a plumbed in commercial Fracino machine (Bambino 1 - semi-auto - cost nowadays c£1,200) which is great - although we use ready-ground coffee (at the moment - negotiations with the kitchen manager are ongoing for a grinder) - we've had the machine for 20 years and it's still going strong (been serviced at the factory probably 3 times)
However, we also have a Nespresso-type pod machine which produces great coffee - lots of different pod varieties available (and punt round on ebay & elsewhere rather than the "trendy outlets" that sell pods at silly high prices) - for the casual user it's ideal . . . and it came from Aldi for about £50!!
Originally purchased when I was managing an LBS but now in use as a portable machine to take when we visit my two non-coffee-drinking daughters (it even has it's own carrying case that I made from plywood :thumbsup: )
It really is worth considering the pod option -especially as you can get a stainless still pod cartridge (reusbale) that you fill with your own coffee.
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Depends on your tolerance for faff, but a decent electric grinder would allow you to produce grinds for any method: moka pot, aeropress, pourover, French press etc. I've used a hand grinder for years, but with the OH having developed a taste for coffee and working from home until Christmas at least, I'm looking at getting an electric grinder and possibly a pourover machine to speed things up of a morning. As long as you don't want espresso, a good grinder can be had for about £100.
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My moka experience improved dramatically when I changed from a 3 cup pot to a 6 cup one. That's 300ml. It's because the coffee never gets scorched. Bigger pot, more metal, better heat distribution. With smaller pots I used to dunk them in cold water just after the coffee had come through, but there was still some scorching. Now the coffee is properly smooth, every time.
I like it whether it's ready ground, or whether I grind it myself. I have an espresso machine which I've given up using. And now I'm giving up my grinder too. I mix the coffee 50/50 with milk, sometimes microwaved. I've also been trying about 20 different Italian coffees over the last 6 months. I get them from maxicoffee.com. Free delivery from France if you spend more than £39, and the prices are better than Tesco. I've discovered 2 coffees which I like as much as Illy.
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I think you either go all the way and get decent grinder and semi-auto machine (circa £2k) and learn to use it, or you get a pod machine (about £100, sometimes less).
I'm not convinced that anything in between is worth it.
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I think you either go all the way and get decent grinder and semi-auto machine (circa £2k) and learn to use it, or you get a pod machine (about £100, sometimes less).
I'm not convinced that anything in between is worth it.
I'd agree - having tried most things over the years - cafetiere/French press, drip machines, Cona stove top (remember them?), Moka pots, mini espresso machine.
We've not had a grinder as decent ready-ground has been widely available but I think we'll be getting a grinder before long, in part as we now have a larger kitchen. The difference, we find, between ready-ground and ground as you make the coffee is marginal if you keep it in an air-tight tin (and only in 225gm lots)
For the pod machine we either use Lor (in a variety of strengths - usually to be found on ebay, often as bulk boxes of "samples" in packs of 3) or the Aldi Espresso 7 pods ... which are very good value at 13p each
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I think you either go all the way and get decent grinder and semi-auto machine (circa £2k) and learn to use it, or you get a pod machine (about £100, sometimes less).
I'm not convinced that anything in between is worth it.
I'd agree - having tried most things over the years - cafetiere/French press, drip machines, Cona stove top (remember them?), Moka pots, mini espresso machine.
*Warning: Contains opinion
Yeah...tried them all too, and all of them make a different sort of coffee and have their place (except mini espresso machines, which are shite)
Cafetieres are for convenience only, as the coffee is inferior to a simple plastic cone and paper filter.
Vacuum makers, (Cona) fashionable in the 70s and then again about 10 years ago, produce great coffee with a theatrical display, but are a massive faff. Sooner or later you'll accidentally smash it, and be surprised at how liberating it feels.
Moka pots produce something unique, and are a rough approximation of espresso if camping. Doesnt seem to matter what coffee you put in, it always comes out tasting the same ;D
Cheap BTC machines, why? Might as well have a cheap pod machine. End result is the same.
Aeropress, extremely good if you like the taste (I dont), very cheap, clean, and practical.
But....if you want espresso, proper espresso, then you've got to go down the £500+ grinder, and £1500+ machine route. You could go for a £1200 Sage DB, but the build quality is shite and it will be a short term purchase. Anybody that tells you their £500 BTC machine produces great espresso will have a shock when you give them an actual espresso 🤭
We've not had a grinder as decent ready-ground has been widely available but I think we'll be getting a grinder before long, in part as we now have a larger kitchen. The difference, we find, between ready-ground and ground as you make the coffee is marginal if you keep it in an air-tight tin (and only in 225gm lots)
For the pod machine we either use Lor (in a variety of strengths - usually to be found on ebay, often as bulk boxes of "samples" in packs of 3) or the Aldi Espresso 7 pods ... which are very good value at 13p each
Yes, I find that too. I bought MIL an Aldi pod machine 2 years ago. £45, still going strong and I think their pods produce something very drinkable.
I miss drinking decent filter coffee. It's part laziness but also I find my home flat whites so satisfying. Milk steamed to the consistency of double cream, no visible bubbles. Amazing.
(https://i.ibb.co/pwGsX4M/20200606-084050.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RbZMHQs)
(https://i.ibb.co/m5WTxHr/20200807-092304.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k2CBdhV)
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Requirements are ~2 cups of strong espresso coffee per day, one at least being larger than single shot cup
There's nothing to stop you emptying 2 pods into one cup, that's what I do
I always get lavazza pre ground for my moka pot, not because it's necessarily the best taste but because it's the most finely ground.
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My Sage grinder and single boiler machine are both >3 yo and still going strong, so hardly a short term purchase. No it doesn't have the bells and whistles and I can't steam milk and make automated coffee at the same time, but when I rarely make anything other than espresso that's not an issue.
In my opinion it makes bloody good coffee if you grind the beans right and pay attention to what you are doing, and I'd compare it favourably to what I get from my bean supplier from his several thousand pound machine. Having discussed extensively with him before buying a home machine, this was one of those he recommended.
As for cafetiere being inferior to cone and filter, again, right coffee, ground right, pay it some attention and you get the results.
One of the biggest revelations for me is a quality grinder and whole beans rather than anyone else grinding for me, as theirs will always be an approximation to your needs whereas you can tweak.
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Much appreciate your responses so far, as always they make me think more about my original post/question.
So, to add some subsequent thoughts -
I'm not really interested in the 'best' coffee, cos I wouldn't want to know how to know and couldn't be arsed, really. And my taste and smell has deteriorated over the last 18 months.
I don't want to drink espressos particularly.
My ideal sense of coffee is a rich, strong, edgy darkness mixed with plain warmed hot milk - enough to provide a cup or bowl (if I'm feeling a bit Frenchie of a morning) ~ 250ml combined total.
I have absolutely no idea any of the current coffee nomenclatures, having never been in a "coffee house" and never will.
So perhaps consistency is what's lacking and am looking for, which my current moka stove top regime doesn't deliver, as well a disappointing thin bitterness, even when using expensive Illy.
Perhaps this information will help?
Thanks forumites :thumbsup:
Most of what's drunk at home in France of a morning is filter stuff using ground coffee from the supermarket. As something to dunk your bread & butter in it's fine. Of course, you end up with melted butter floating on the coffee, which is a bit of an acquired taste.
Point is, if you like it by the bowl like that, with or without milk, you can do it for not much with a thing called a Chemex*, which is a one-piece glass filter-holder & jug combined, or you can do it with a 5€ filter holder and provide the jug yourself.
What will improve the flavour is getting good coffee unground from a non-industrial roaster - can't remember the UK names, I use Maxicoffee.fr, although they're getting big these days and I might move on - and grinding it yourself in amounts just sufficient for the brew you're about to make. Keeping the beans in an airtight container is essential. 60 to 70 grammes/litre is the standard dosage quoted in the lit., but when I've made filter for non-coffee-freaks they've found even 60g to be very strong. Me, I like it.
Anyway, a low-end conical-burr grinder such as a Baratza Encore or even a Bodum Bistro will do the trick. You can jimmy an Encore to grind finely enough for a sort of espresso but it's not really worth the bother. Avoid blade grinders like the plague they are. They're good for herbs, though.
And as HF says, an Aeropress is a cheap and easy way of making coffee he doesn't like; but thousands do, yrs trly included. Only trouble is that if you're a bit befuddled of a morning and don't give it a good straight press you can end up with the cup going one way, the gadget the other, probably in two bits, and the recently-boiled water and coffee wherever they will. Great gadget, though.
* In the film Interstellar they have one on the table, figuring as a water-jug
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My ideal sense of coffee is a rich, strong, edgy darkness mixed with plain warmed hot milk - enough to provide a cup or bowl (if I'm feeling a bit Frenchie of a morning) ~ 250ml combined total.
If you want that French breakfast experience then get a drip filter machine as has been said below. Cheap and reliable. You can get one with a built in grinder and timer if you want. The best you can buy will still be way cheaper than a half decent espresso machine.
I like Melitta stuff - reliable and gets the water at the right temperature for filter machines.
https://www.melitta.co.uk/products/coffee-machines/filter-coffee-machines/aromafresh-grind-brew-filter-coffee-machine/
I would get a separate filter and grinder though. I'm considering this one with an inbuilt scale:
https://www.melitta.co.uk/products/accessories/coffee-grinders/calibra-coffee-grinder-with-integrated-scale/
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I think you either go all the way and get decent grinder and semi-auto machine (circa £2k) and learn to use it, or you get a pod machine (about £100, sometimes less).
I'm not convinced that anything in between is worth it.
I'd agree - having tried most things over the years - cafetiere/French press, drip machines, Cona stove top (remember them?), Moka pots, mini espresso machine.
*Warning: Contains opinion
Yeah...tried them all too, and all of them make a different sort of coffee and have their place (except mini espresso machines, which are shite)
Cafetieres are for convenience only, as the coffee is inferior to a simple plastic cone and paper filter.
Vacuum makers, (Cona) fashionable in the 70s and then again about 10 years ago, produce great coffee with a theatrical display, but are a massive faff. Sooner or later you'll accidentally smash it, and be surprised at how liberating it feels.
Moka pots produce something unique, and are a rough approximation of espresso if camping. Doesnt seem to matter what coffee you put in, it always comes out tasting the same ;D
Cheap BTC machines, why? Might as well have a cheap pod machine. End result is the same.
Aeropress, extremely good if you like the taste (I dont), very cheap, clean, and practical.
But....if you want espresso, proper espresso, then you've got to go down the £500+ grinder, and £1500+ machine route. You could go for a £1200 Sage DB, but the build quality is shite and it will be a short term purchase. Anybody that tells you their £500 BTC machine produces great espresso will have a shock when you give them an actual espresso 🤭
We've not had a grinder as decent ready-ground has been widely available but I think we'll be getting a grinder before long, in part as we now have a larger kitchen. The difference, we find, between ready-ground and ground as you make the coffee is marginal if you keep it in an air-tight tin (and only in 225gm lots)
For the pod machine we either use Lor (in a variety of strengths - usually to be found on ebay, often as bulk boxes of "samples" in packs of 3) or the Aldi Espresso 7 pods ... which are very good value at 13p each
Yes, I find that too. I bought MIL an Aldi pod machine 2 years ago. £45, still going strong and I think their pods produce something very drinkable.
I miss drinking decent filter coffee. It's part laziness but also I find my home flat whites so satisfying. Milk steamed to the consistency of double cream, no visible bubbles. Amazing.
>snip pix
Looks like we're on the same wavelength here! I'm about to make a tray/shelf unit of some sort to fit on the RH side of the machine - with a "top deck" to sit the grinder when we get (that'll probably be a Fracino one too .... sounds Italian, designed and made in Birmingham on an industrial estate just by spag junction!)
(https://i.ibb.co/mqyW0jn/coffee-machine2-jun20.jpg)
The sign above the machine, if you can read it, is paying homage to my earlier career in the printing industry with wooden type - and the plug on the LH side is Hive to automatically switch off at night/switch on in the morning to save power usuage.
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Ooh shiny! It's good to have something serviceable. Mine really should have a service given it is 12 years old, but I've not got round to it.
People went nuts for those £1200 Sage Dual Boiler machines about 6 years ago because the spec looked very high for the money. But...built in China, cheap materials, and AFAIK nobody services them. They remind me of modern electronic gadgets like bluetooth headphones...very shiny, work well, but they arent intended to last more than a handful of years.
Couldn't use a timer plug on mine. It just powers it into standby mode. La Spaziale produce their own but it is crazy money. I tinkered with the wiring and fitted a switch so that it bangs the machine on with a timer plug.
Grinders: I have worked my way through 5 grinders, and they have all produced markedly different coffee. The 3rd was a Mazzer Mini. I sold it to buy a flashy 68mm burr electronic on demand machine that people were raving about (rrp now about £800). But the coffee tasted flat and disappointing. Found a slightly damaged commercial size Mazzer Major for half normal price and fitted an electronic timer to turn it into an on demand grinder (but with a doser). Cant see myself changing it, ever.
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Ooh shiny! It's good to have something serviceable. Mine really should have a service given it is 12 years old, but I've not got round to it.
People went nuts for those £1200 Sage Dual Boiler machines about 6 years ago because the spec looked very high for the money. But...built in China, cheap materials, and AFAIK nobody services them. They remind me of modern electronic gadgets like bluetooth headphones...very shiny, work well, but they arent intended to last more than a handful of years.
Couldn't use a timer plug on mine. It just powers it into standby mode. La Spaziale produce their own but it is crazy money. I tinkered with the wiring and fitted a switch so that it bangs the machine on with a timer plug.
Grinders: I have worked my way through 5 grinders, and they have all produced markedly different coffee. The 3rd was a Mazzer Mini. I sold it to buy a flashy 68mm burr electronic on demand machine that people were raving about (rrp now about £800). But the coffee tasted flat and disappointing. Found a slightly damaged commercial size Mazzer Major for half normal price and fitter an electronic timer to turn it into an on demand grinder (but with a doser). Cant see myself changing it, ever.
We only moved here in February 20 so the machine has been where it is for just a few months - what was "interesting" was drilling the granite for a 30mm hole to take the water feed and waste pipes . . . to my amazement a £10 "diamond tipped" hole saw from Screwfix and slow drilling, with Mrs robgul spraying water on the bit, did the job.
It's all a bit shiny with a stainless steel panel on the LH side . . . and what you can't see is a stainless steel cupboard door under the machine - there was a rather ancient second oven in the housing - that went and the cupboard stores the odd bits and pieces for the machine and the water softener and inline water filter. Shelf above the machine is IKEA's finest/cheapest stainless job :thumbsup:
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It all looks pristine and tidy. My La Spaz was the first plumbed in machine (just water, not waste) and I dont think I could go back to a tanked machine.
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I have a Melita (Caffeo Bistro) B2C and it does a decent coffee with 2 button presses (the first one just wakes it up) quicker than boiling the kettle.
It may not be decent to a connoisseur, but it's better than from ground coffee.
They do need about half an hour a month of maintenance (descaling/cleaning tablet/cleaning innards).
If it broke, I would buy another (it was £60 second-hand, about 5 yeras ago)
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I had a Gaggia Titanium BtC, it was passable at best. I also had a Jura F90 which was better but was almost double the price. I then got myself various pod machines for the office and shop etc, the Dulce Gusto wasn't great, but it's perfect for living in a flightcase with a few pods and a couple of cups to take to gigs and have a coffee while watching some rollerderby in a sports hall. The bigger Nespresso actually did a decent job. Then I got a v60. After all that I think my faves are the Moka pot, Aeropress but I still find myself craving a filter coffee.
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Aeropress, extremely good if you like the taste (I dont), very cheap, clean, and practical.
Not arguing with the assessment, I got myself one for my newly acquired caravan habit, initially I was very disappointed. But, courtesy of someone on YouTube, I discovered the reverse brewing method where you stand it on the plunger, put the coffee and water in, stir, before putting the filter on and inverting and pressing which I find entirely acceptable.
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HTFE would you make it? ???
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As it became (belatedly, slow minded Slope as ever) clear, what I wanted to drink once a day in the morning after a good strong mug of Tetley tea and home made multi seeded wholemeal toast slathered with butter and dark miso, was a ~ 275ml sort of strong "flat white" without the need for froth bothering. I ended up buying an Aeropress* and an Aergrind** manual bean grinder. The latter is an absolute pleasure to hold and use and I took the expensive punt thinking I could always try and sell it on via the Classifieds if it was deemed disappointing.
I now need to begin the possibly tortuous journey of discovery, re which coffee beans. Only tried it with Illy Classico thus far - but rather satisfied overall.
Thanks everyone for all your suggestions and advice :thumbsup:
*https://www.aeropress.co.uk/
**http://www.madebyknock.com/store/p52/Aergrind.html
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HTFE would you make it? ???
As per the hoficial hinstructions....
https://aeropress.com/use-it-now/getting-started/
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I make mine like this but use the mesh filters for all that extra oily richness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVcgSBJFhgM
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I make mine like this but use the mesh filters for all that extra oily richness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVcgSBJFhgM
looks weaker than a nuns piss
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35g coffee to 310-350ml water? That's not going to be weak coffee; as a specialty/hipster brew it's more likely just a light roast.
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Thanks to this thread I've got my Gaggia Classic out of mothballs.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZNfq7uw.jpg)
I got it 5 years ago but I just couldn't get the hang of making a decent cup. This year I've been trying lots of different beans in various moka pots, grinding them with my Iberital MC2. And lo and behold, I seem to have learnt something about grinds and extracting. I now make delicious coffee, without any of the measuring and weighing and timing that I used to wrestle with. I can even make black coffee with a sweet crema. I've cracked it!
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Its all down to temperature stability (or lack of it) with these thermostat machines. The temperature overshoots as the element switches off, drops, then carries on dropping for a bit after the element switches on again. I think it can be up to about 10⁰, which has a huge impact on flavour. Solution is to fit a PID. You can get kits just for the Classic.
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I'm delighted with the flavour. Not interested in changing anything.
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Great. That saves £100 and a few hours of swearing and frustration with a soldering iron then :thumbsup:
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I've succumbed to Nespresso mania. Not a morning person. Couldn't stand the faff and mess of a real espresso machine and grinder, or a moka pot. So I got myself a used Sage Creatista Plus for half the new price. My God, it's so easy. Have bought the full range of Illy capsules, hoping to get a result which isn't too much of a compromise. Unfortunately the taste is murdered somewhat by having to use oat milk, for health reasons. (Ok, I could use almond or cashew, but they're gross.) BUT... I've just made something extremely good...three Illy Forte Extra Bold capsules plus some oat milk in a mug. Very happy. I shall survive.
The waste is appalling. I think I might recycle the capsules by cutting them open to get the coffee out. Wouldn't take long to recover enough aluminium to build an airliner.
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Jumping in here, if you were looking to add a manual espresso machine to your recently-acquired Rancilio Rocky (and I am not enough of a perfectionist to listen to anyone telling me I should have got a Eureka Mignon, before anyone ventures down that road), what would be the recommendation of the forum for under £1000 (preferably significantly under)?
Sam
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I'm confused - The Rancilio Rocky is a grinder, as is the Mignon? As an espresso machine, I'm very happy with my Rancillio Silvia, which is only £400-ish (http://www.myespresso.co.uk/product/rancilio-silvia-e-semi-automatic-espresso-machine-2020/), which with the addition of a PID is fantastically consistent
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£1000 will get you a single boiler E61 HX machine. If you go up £200 you are into dual boiler PID territory, either Sage Dual (which works very well, but may not be robust or serviceable) or one of the E61 machines that are built like tanks.
£500 will get you a Rancilio Silvia. Factor in £80 or so for a PID and it'll produce shots as good as the £1000 jobs, but the steaming is a ballache.
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What is this "steaming" of which you speak? I think my machine has the capability to do something with a magic wand, but I've not tried it ever.*
You may find it interesting to look at James Hoffman's review of low end machines, the Gaggia and Rancilio are both in there https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HIGdYy5of4
ETA things I've added to mine:
- a PID - the mecoffee PID https://mecoffee.nl/ - may not be the best choice if you need support, but works fine for me so far, planned from the off
- a funnel for the portafilter, to reduce mess and add ease of use (I have a manual Mignon grinder). Best Chinesium off ebay (actually a nice bit of CNC kit)
- a motta tamper
- a bottomless portafilter, keeps coffee hotter and is easier to tamp flat
*EATA: Lie. I tried it once. Distinct dimunition of visitors has meant that is the sum total of my frothy milk escapades.
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I'm confused - The Rancilio Rocky is a grinder, as is the Mignon? As an espresso machine, I'm very happy with my Rancillio Silvia, which is only £400-ish (http://www.myespresso.co.uk/product/rancilio-silvia-e-semi-automatic-espresso-machine-2020/), which with the addition of a PID is fantastically consistent
Yes. As in, my Wilfa Svart blew its motor, I replaced it with a Rocky because it can handle filter grind and has easily replaceable bits (also Charlotte recommended it), and am now contemplating an espresso machine to replace the Nespresso (which I was always in two minds about).
Neither of us takes milk in coffee (I have a dairy intolerance), the dog doesn't drink coffee, and so performance with a magic wand is superfluous. Thank you for the recommendations. No idea what a PID is, but that's what google is for.
Sam
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Rancilio Silvia then :thumbsup:
PID pulses power in continuously to boiler which helps keep brew temp stable. Without it you get a huge temperature rise and drop leading to massive inconsistency in shots. (because temperature is pretty crucial.
The beauty of the Silvia is that it shares the important bits (the group head) with the top range pro equipment, and it's all about heat retention (but see comments about PF)
WRT to Ham's comment on portafilter, the stock one is shite. You can swap it out for a professional cafe one which weighs about 10x more but retains heat beautifully. Well worth the cash. The truth is a decent 2 spout PF will keep your shot hotter than a naked PF. Naked PF is for diagnosing issues with your grind and tamp (which cease to be an issue if you have a decent grinder...Rockys are OK but are known to be clumpy...which results in water passing through unevenly and what is called channelling...you get one side of filter producing lush brown blobs and the other side a stream of acrid yellow piss)
Ultimately the better your equipment the fewer faults you have to mitigate. It really isn't about being anal...its about repeatability and not having to mess around. This is why cafes use decent kit. They set the grind, the dose, the amount of water, and the temp. And that is it. You get those right with good kit and don't need to fuck around.
There is a learning curve that everyone goes through, and the first part is usually discovering the hard way that the people you thought were coffee obsessives were right. The first part of this is learning that your grinder is as important if not more than your machine.
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There is a learning curve that everyone goes through, and the first part is usually discovering the hard way that the people you thought were coffee obsessives were right.
That's true, but there's a but.
That is, (at least in my case) you realise that stuff does make a difference, and that a small amount of effort at establishing consistency has a pretty good repayment. What it is, you start off making coffee, and it's good. Only sometimes it's better than others, so you try to find out how to make it so it is consistently enjoyable. The PID that keeps the water temperature constant at the start made the single biggest improvement. While I can see that there is reason for greater obsessiveness, I've reached the point of diminishing returns so I don't see myself ever weighing each shot, or worrying about a dosing grinder, or even buying a better grinder until this one packs up. I judge the coffee I put in by eye and the same with the water, it is really good enough for me. Full confession: I have bought a crack dealer's weight scale for a fiver off eBay, which I used to establish visual representation of volumes, I don't use it on a regular basis.
As far as the portafilter is concerned, I'm not entirely convinced that a bigger holder would retain as much or more heat than the stock one fully up to temperature, but it isn't impossible. People appear to get more aerated over the portafilter basket than the holder, I might well change that if I can find the right size. But the absolute reason I got the bottomless one was that with a 2 spout and the cups I have the bastard machine drinks the coffee as well, if I'm not careful. I thought of a 1 spout but decided it would make tamping too difficult, can't see any drawback with the bottomless one. Another confession, I wipe the seal clean pretty much every shot (or, every other one) to make sure the pressure seal is good and consistent.
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There is a learning curve that everyone goes through, and the first part is usually discovering the hard way that the people you thought were coffee obsessives were right.
That's true, but there's a but.
That is, (at least in my case) you realise that stuff does make a difference, and that a small amount of effort at establishing consistency has a pretty good repayment. What it is, you start off making coffee, and it's good. Only sometimes it's better than others, so you try to find out how to make it so it is consistently enjoyable. The PID that keeps the water temperature constant at the start made the single biggest improvement. While I can see that there is reason for greater obsessiveness, I've reached the point of diminishing returns so I don't see myself ever weighing each shot, or worrying about a dosing grinder, or even buying a better grinder until this one packs up. I judge the coffee I put in by eye and the same with the water, it is really good enough for me. Full confession: I have bought a crack dealer's weight scale for a fiver off eBay, which I used to establish visual representation of volumes, I don't use it on a regular basis.
You are at the point where mitigating the shortcomings of your equipment means a load of faff...like weighing your beans, weighing your shots etc etc etc etc
I don't need to do any of that shit because I have a dosing grinder(I modded it with a timer so I can set the dose easily) and the grind quality is awesome, and I have a volumetric machine.
Here is my process: press grind button. Dump coffee into PF. Tamp briefly (I don't need to fuck about) Put PF into group. Press one button once.Coffee arrives, pump stops.
And that is it.That is all I do.
. People appear to get more aerated over the portafilter basket than the holder, I might well change that if I can find the right size. But the absolute reason I got the bottomless one was that with a 2 spout and the cups I have the bastard machine drinks the coffee as well, if I'm not careful. I thought of a 1 spout but decided it would make tamping too difficult, can't see any drawback with the bottomless one. Another confession, I wipe the seal clean pretty much every shot (or, every other one) to make sure the pressure seal is good and consistent.
Yes, some peoplehave VST baskets and rave about them. I tried one and noticed no difference.
At this point I have to say that the coffee you use alsopresents different challenges. I like medium dark trad espresso, but if I liked lighter roasted acid coffees as espresso I would be being very anal because they need a lot more care to get a balanced shot. I would be following a recipe for that to get the right brew ratio of solids to water.
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You are at the point where mitigating the shortcomings of your equipment means a load of faff
True, with that small change, but then that is reflected in the original purchase cost - and possibly size - of your kit, your may be plumbed in, too. Ultimately, you have better kit and it likely pays off in convenience and consistency. As it happens, the MeCoffee PID will allow me to set a shot timer, but up to now I'm happy with using the switch (I do have it set to do prewetting though, which seems to help)
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Yes, it's plumbed in, and I wouldn't go back to a tanked machine.
The funny thing is that all the geeks are moving into pressure profile machines like the Vesuvius or the Decent. Or they are going lever because they think lever gives a special flavour (it might, it is essentially pressure profiling)
Me? I can't be arsed. I want repeatability and ease. I don't want to go off on some wanky coffee adventure every time I make a cup. Also my wife can easily use this machine because its all set up.
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There is a learning curve that everyone goes through, and the first part is usually discovering the hard way that the people you thought were coffee obsessives were right. The first part of this is learning that your grinder is as important if not more than your machine.
The second part is convincing your significant other that yes you do need to spend all that money on "just" a grinder.
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Its all down to temperature stability (or lack of it) with these thermostat machines. The temperature overshoots as the element switches off, drops, then carries on dropping for a bit after the element switches on again. I think it can be up to about 10⁰, which has a huge impact on flavour. Solution is to fit a PID. You can get kits just for the Classic.
I've given this more thought because the good cups from my Gaggia were rare aberrations. And I found a cheap-but-highly-rated PID kit which doesn't require soldering, which I am very crap at. https://www.shadesofcoffee.co.uk/pre-2018---original-gaggia-classic-espresso-machines/gaggia-classic-pid-kit---132din-single-display So do I persist with the Gaggia? I'm looking for black coffee of rocket fuel strength and lots of crema with some sugar-free sweetness. It's what I think a proper, traditional Italian espresso ought to be. I have a feeling I wouldn't get it even if I fitted the PID. There'd be more mods needed, more faffing and probably a very, very expensive grinder upgrade. (I have an Iberital MC2).
The alternative is to try all the coffees available in Nespresso pods and find my favourite. Or concede that I'd prefer Illy to anything I haven't tried, and maybe consider sticking it in a reusable pod.
A huge factor is that by this time next year I want to be away with my campervan most of the time. Taking my Nespresso machine with me would be easy. A real espresso machine + grinder would be harder, especially if I'm to avoid making horrible messes in the vehicle. I'd probably have to put the machinery on a shelf/table outside the vehicle and only make coffee in the open air.
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If you can find a Nespresso you are happy with then go with that would be my approach given what you have said. The unfortunate truth is that whatever you do to your Gaggia you will still have the MC2 as a limiting factor (I speak from experience of the old MC2)
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If I had the money I'd have five grand's worth of gear in my campervan, set up to give the same perfect cup every time with the press of one button.
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Five grand is excessive - there are used Super Jollys going for £250 on ebay.
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Yes, and they are good grinders. The only issue is working out if the ebay grinder is an enthusiast's machine that has been used 4 times a day for 10 years, or an ex-cafe machine that is tired.
It is possible to hunt around for a bargain. I got a newMazzer Major £700 grinder for £350. It had a slight dent in the doser and I cracked doser screen. The screen cost £12, the dent didn't matter. I'll never ever change that grinder because it will outlast me, and it produces a great grind.
For a van though, personally I'd go Nespresso. You've an issue with space, and also potentially power. The Nespresso heats up quickly so there won't be a prolonged power draw, and they have a small footprint. Plus they don't make any mess at all.
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I'm just imagining a Super Jolly in a camper van...
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I use an aeropress in the caravan, IME it's makes as good/better tasting coffee than a Nespresso, even though it isn't strictly an espresso. A small Nespresso might actually be easier and less faffage, though.
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My Nespresso is a Sage....quite big. But it's so quick and easy. 3 seconds warm-up.
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Nespresso can be OK if you stop the pour at 10cc or less. Chum always fills the cup and produces liquid coal. :sick:
My B2C is OK if I stop the pour at around 5 grammes in the cup. Not much but it then dumps in the other 15cc it has in its cheek pouches. I reckon that if I stop the pour at 0.5g the results should be great.
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Anyone got a lower end price (<£400) bean to cup machine they might wish to provide feedback on?
I'm no longer enjoying my venerable moka stove top coffee.
Or are coffee pod machines at all worth considering?
Requirements are ~2 cups of strong espresso coffee per day, one at least being larger than single shot cup (~150ml) with ~equal quantity of added hot milk, don't mind heating milk separately.
I found myself asking the same question during the first lockdown, and mostly all I found was coffee porn requiring vast sums of cash or ages spent dialing machines in to give a reasonable cup of coffee.
I bought a refurbished delongi machine for about 160 quid, beans from a local roaster and dialled it up so the 2 shot button makes an americano.
I put a cup under it, stab a button hot coffee comes out I drink it... repeat.
Unless of course what you want is to be a coffee nerd, I just wanted something to help with the conversion of caffeine into profit for my corporate overlords and the cafeteria wasn't cutting it.
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I bought a refurbished delongi machine for about 160 quid, beans from a local roaster and dialled it up so the 2 shot button makes an americano.
Ditto, except that they must have dropped it in the packing dept. because they sent me a brand new one instead. 220€ it cost. The only embuggerance is that if the power goes out it loses its settings.
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This thread (and a few of the videos linked herein) has convinced me to stick with my Aeropress and continue to purchase my espresso based drinks on the go.
So, thanks :D
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I was just about to sell you my Gaggia and grinder....
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I've just discovered how to get the taste I've been looking for all these years. I bought an Illy Iperespresso Y3.3 capsule machine. It uses Illy's own patented design of capsules, which Illy describes as 'two stage'. 19 bar pressure. With an Illy red capsule the taste is just right - good enough to drink it black. I did a side by side test with a Nespresso-compatible Illy red capsule in my Sage Creatista machine - it was piss by comparison. Only drinkable when the taste is smothered by milk. The Iperespresso is also in a different league from moka pots and my Gaggia Classic. It's fantastic that I can now enjoy black coffee at home, as I'm on a keto diet for health reasons, and it's difficult to stick to if I drink lots of carbs in oat milk.
The Y3.3 is on special offer on the Illy site - £79. https://www.illy.com/en-gb/shop/espresso-machines/iperespresso-capsule-coffee-machines/ Free delivery. Comes with 14 capsules, which would cost £5.33 if bought separately. Capsules are 38p each, the same price as Illy nespresso ones.
If you buy Iperespresso capsules in bags of 100, they cost MORE. 41p each. This is just one of the many moronic features of the Illy site.