ride dates for permanent and DIY

[Euan Uzami]

So are you saying that if you planned to ride a 600 perm on a certain date but work commitments prevented you doing so, therefore, you rode it the following weekend, it would be less of an achievement?  Or are you saying that you'd have to buy a new card and bin the one you had sitting there?

lol
that would never happen

audax comes first - work second 

[Euan Uzami]

In other words, audax is not for the fair-weather cyclist (or at least shouldn't be geared towards helping them),

I look forward to your company on a 600 this coming January then.
It'll be good practice for PBP.
(But I won't be riding if it's icy, cos I'm a coward and in all honesty, a fair weather cyclist as I do most of my miles in the summer. )

(well, just to be clear about 'audax is not for the fair weather cyclist', I'm not saying I think audax shouldn't be for the fair weather cyclist, I just meant that's how I interpret the sentiment of having to specify the ride date.)
FWIW I am a fair weather cyclist if i'm honest, but that doesn't mean i can't appreciate the influence audax has on me of encouraging me to be less of one. but, like you say, I am a coward and won't ride if there's ice.

[MercuryKev]

But riding an AUK Audax is about riding to AUK rules, which involves quite a lot of pedantry!

Does this mean that the rules have been broken if you've ridden a perm without specifying a date in advance?   

Just checking because I have a number of perm cards sitting in my drawer and I wouldn't normally alert the organiser before I went out and rode the route.

[teethgrinder]

wanders off topic...


So, are you coming on this 600 or not?
Might be able to twist the arms of R Forrest, Mike K, Ian H, HK and PeterM too, but I wouldn't count on it.

[teethgrinder]

But riding an AUK Audax is about riding to AUK rules, which involves quite a lot of pedantry!

Does this mean that the rules have been broken if you've ridden a perm without specifying a date in advance?   

Just checking because I have a number of perm cards sitting in my drawer and I wouldn't normally alert the organiser before I went out and rode the route.

I reckon so.

But I reckon if the organiser has an entry form, nobody would know if the dates were modified to tidy things up, appropriate wrists were slapped and it wasn't done again, but I never wrote this on a public internet forum. Nudge nudge.

[MercuryKev]

But riding an AUK Audax is about riding to AUK rules, which involves quite a lot of pedantry!

Does this mean that the rules have been broken if you've ridden a perm without specifying a date in advance?   

Just checking because I have a number of perm cards sitting in my drawer and I wouldn't normally alert the organiser before I went out and rode the route.

I reckon so.

But I reckon if the organiser has an entry form, nobody would know if the dates were modified to tidy things up, appropriate wrists were slapped and it wasn't done again, but I never wrote this on a public internet forum. Nudge nudge.

 

[marcus]

wanders off topic...


So, are you coming on this 600 or not?
Might be able to twist the arms of R Forrest, Mike K, Ian H, HK and PeterM too, but I wouldn't count on it.

You might be able to twist my arm ...

[teethgrinder]

wanders off topic...


So, are you coming on this 600 or not?
Might be able to twist the arms of R Forrest, Mike K, Ian H, HK and PeterM too, but I wouldn't count on it.

You might be able to twist my arm ...

done

[The Seldom Killer]

But this shouldn't remove the need to specify a date before starting it.

Matt's idea of a 48-hour rule seems sensible.

I have to say I disagree. I want to do a DIY 200 this weekend, a 48-hr rule would have meant that I had to nominate the day on Thursday, and I had no idea of what the weather was going to be like by then. I still don't know whether I am going to go for Saturday or Sunday.

Let's not take our eye off the ball - we want to ENCOURAGE people to cycle as much as possible. Nominating the night before seems adequate to me, and it seems that at least some DIY organisers agree, including mine, thankfully. I was recently reading a sportive vs audax thread on another board and people were commenting that they perceived audaxing as a bit "beardy" and bureaucratic...things like this wouldn't help our cause.

Hold on a mo. If I knew what the weather was likely to do this weekend, why didn't you? I was able to make an educated guess by Wednesday and the weather predictions for pretty much the whole country have borne out since being made on Thursday. The weather services in the papers, TV, radio and internet have all been pretty much on the ball. Had the weather been very erratic then I might understand, but it hasn't been. Although if the weather was so erratic as to be unpredictable, planning an audax may be unwise.

I like the idea of a 48 hour rule. I would ask that, for RRtY purposes, people be allowed to nominate a prospective route to be completed within a certain month and the date fixed no less than 48 hours before starting, especially in winter. That's not a fairweather need but one to allow for prudence and reasonable caution.

[Billy Weir]

Why do we need to reach for a new rule all the time?  I really dislike the trend of imposing personal preferences and views on the membership as a whole.

AUK should simply provide some leadership and tell organisers (and riders) what the minimum requirements are(*).  Organisers should then apply them.  If organsisers want to impose additional requirements that work for them and that also comply with the minimum requirements, then so be it.

Personally, I think it is irrelevant when riders tell organisers they are doing the event, provided they have entered the event in advance.  The key thing is that they inform the organiser prior to heading out.


------
(*)this applies more generally.  A lot of the threads/comments over the past few weeks seem to be because AUK appears to be administering the regulations on the basis of hearsay.

[3peaker]

I must be a retired ‘Points Bagger’.

Here is the ‘Official’  line from the AudaxUK website Perm Info:

“Permanent rides are more flexible than calendared events. Most can be ridden at any time and many organisers will not insist that you commit yourself to a particular date in advance. Most organisers provide you with a route sheet and many offer advice as to possible places to obtain your proof of passage in designated towns or villages.”

But, also, as an Organiser, I can give myself minutes notice to do a ride.  And I can return home with a wallet full of ATMs and Till Receipts and a pristine unmarked Card (or might have forgotten to take a Card from the ‘Office’ in the first place). For Infos I use a camera as PoP.

So, if I pass my advantage to others booking my rides, to produce the ‘Level Playing Field’, can I insist on prior notification?  It is good form to hear of next attempts or change of date and I receive numerous e-changes, which I welcome but do not insist upon.  I can even provide off-street parking for Cheltenham-start rides.

Fundamentally, the rider has paid for a Brevet Card and an intention to ride.  I do not have ‘cut-off’ but welcome e-mail notification to keep me in the loop.  A big advantage is where I might have updated my Routesheet and can now provide gps routes from some of my own rides.  My current Routesheets are far more detailed with inter-instruction distance, based on gps-assisted rides. So, anyone with Routesheets a few months old could be missing out on improved routing and instruction (as an example, my popular Cotswold Corker 100 Perm now S/Fs in Bishops Cleeve, has improved village routing after Northleach and I provide Autoroute maps for guidance).  Also, I can offer gps tracks for many.  I am proud of my routes and am keen to share them and my labours to ‘write them up’ (by which I mean gps and decent routing).  Whilst I provide a flavour of the routes in the AUK Perm pages, I will be updating the Perm site to advise gps availability.

Another Perm development is the ’Devolution of Validation’ to selected Organisers, which John Ward is introducing. How we police different standards could be a big Question.  I think what matters is the integrity of both rider and Organiser and any implications on Insurance cover. I find ‘open date’ a huge advantage and for points bagging purposes, the 50% Rule provides a degree of protection for Calendar events.
 
So, there is good reason to advise the Organiser of intended ride date.  Hold on to the Cards (do not do the Ride for some time?) and you may find, at an extreme, that the Organiser has ‘Gone out of Business’.

SteveP

[frankly frankie]

I would suggest a 'rule' is not the same thing as a 'regulation'.

The 'regulation' (5.4) is quite clear - entries are to be made the official Entry Form and 'should' reach the organiser 14 days before the ride.  The Form in its turn requires the riding date - even the bastardised version of the form that is used for online DIY entry requires this.
NB the whole of Reg 5.x applies equally to Perm and Calendar events.

NB there's nothing to say the entrant can't then contact the organiser to revise the date that was originally set.  That is how the process is supposed to work, for Perms, if the entrant really insists on being so self-indulgent having that freedom of choice.

A 'rule' - now that is custom & practice that has replaced a regulation that isn't working (or, sometimes, that just doesn't exist).  Some parts of Reg 5.4 are clearly honoured mainly in the breach, and have been for years.  It seems no-one can be bothered to bring it up to date, so, like several other regs, it's easier just to ignore it.

[sub55]

I certainly do not do alot of perms , but over the years i have done one or two and to date ,i have never been asked for ,or provided a date for my ride.  I dont really see why i need to . Whats the issue?
I have made a commitment  to the ride by filling in the form and paying my money.  Im over a 18 and responsible for my own actions. Why should it matter to an organiser ,if i ride on the 26/27 or 28th .
to Simplify things,  what i normally do is apply for a small handful of cards at once, i then ride them in the order that takes my fancy.  I would quite often not decide until the morning of the ride.  So whats the problem?  Why does the organiser need to know?   Is he suddenly going to rush out to make sure the route is safe for me , is he going to lie in bed worrying that i`ve had some major mechanical and im stuck in the middle of no where at 2am.  Well no, i just dont understand the rational behind some sort of rule that the organiser  knows that im on the ride.   

[Ian H]

I certainly do not do alot of perms , but over the years i have done one or two and to date ,i have never been asked for ,or provided a date for my ride.  I dont really see why i need to . Whats the issue?

The completed entry form, including date, has to be completed in advance of the ride. It's one of the conditions of an AUK event. Insurance comes into it as well.

[teethgrinder]

.
I like the idea of a 48 hour rule.

So no more entries on the line for the calendaer events which allow them?

Or is it just for permanents?

[frankly frankie]

The regulation exists, so it doesn't need a rationale.  You might say the true reasons are lost in the mists of time.

We would need a rationale to change it (because AUK is set up in a very conservative way), and maybe that's why most people choose to sweep it under the carpet instead.

FWIW if I was a Perms organiser (which I used to be, but am not any more) - I would insist in knowing the date of the ride in advance.  If the rider then chose to ride on a different day without informing me - OK, I wouldn't do anything to block the validation of a successful ride.  If, however, he was found dead by the roadside with a brevet card in his pocket, I would deny all knowledge and expect AUK to do the same.

[eck]

.
I like the idea of a 48 hour rule.

So no more entries on the line for the calendaer events which allow them?

Or is it just for permanents?

Erm, I'd expect that the organiser of a calendar event would have a fair idea of the date people were riding.

FWIW, as a DIY organiser, I'm relaxed about people specifying the exact ride date when they send an entry in. BUT I expect them to tell me the date of the ride before they set off, even if it's just an email as they are leaving the house.

[sub55]

The regulation exists, so it doesn't need a rationale.  You might say the true reasons are lost in the mists of time.

We would need a rationale to change it (because AUK is set up in a very conservative way), and maybe that's why most people choose to sweep it under the carpet instead.

FWIW if I was a Perms organiser (which I used to be, but am not any more) - I would insist in knowing the date of the ride in advance.  If the rider then chose to ride on a different day without informing me - OK, I wouldn't do anything to block the validation of a successful ride.  If, however, he was found dead by the roadside with a brevet card in his pocket, I would deny all knowledge and expect AUK to do the same.

tO me its a seperate issue, you dont really need to know when a rider is going to start your perm.  What you need to know is that he has done it, got home and is still alive.  So i would suggest that if it is so necesserily to inform the organiser  48 h before the start , then the rider should also be be made to notify the promotor  within 30 mins of finishing.
Lets face it , in a calendar event you have an end controller to check riders back in to make sure they are all safe and well.

[mattc]

I must be a retired ‘Points Bagger’.
<SNIP>
But, also, as an Organiser, I can give myself minutes notice to do a ride.

Sounds to me like you may be (retired) poacher turned poacher+gamekeeper!

Here is the ‘Official’  line from the AudaxUK website Perm Info:

“Permanent rides are more flexible than calendared events. Most can be ridden at any time and many organisers will not insist that you commit yourself to a particular date in advance...

I can't speak for others, but for a year-or-so I thought this meant that after buying a set of DIY cards, you could ride without notifying a date at all. So it is perhaps a case of ambiguous documentation. Perhaps.

[Manotea]

The completed entry form, including date, has to be completed in advance of the ride. It's one of the conditions of an AUK event. Insurance comes into it as well.

Hi Ian. Thank you for your clarification which indicates that the organiser is to be notified of the date prior to a Permanent.

However it seems many possibly most Permanent organisers and riders are in breach of it.

Can you clarify if it is AUK policy to:
a) disregard/remove the rule/regulation.
b) enforce the rule/regulation.

AIUI the earliest opportunity to implement (a) is Nov 2011 which suggests pro-tem ( b) is the only way forward.

Can you advise what steps are being taken to enforce the rule/regulation and offer guidence to organisers and riders regarding managing this aspect of permanent rides, including for example, applying for a Permanent in advance of the date being known and procedures for changing the date of the Permanent as might be required.

[Ian H]

MattC has quoted an example where the meaning of the regulation is less than unambiguous. So perhaps revert to the basic ethos of AUK: If you want to pop out for a ride then no one's going to stop you. If you want points, then a few formalities are required.

[teethgrinder]

I always thought it was a hard rule that the entry form had to reach the organiser before the ride took place. Some calendar event organisers (like El Supremo) insist on entries sent in before  two weeks or more before the ride. But for permanents, I've always thought that as long as you get a completed entry form in, including the date of the event, before you begin riding the event, it's OK.
For "policing". I'd say that the ride should only be validated if it has actually been entered via a completed entry form, including date of ride.
I never thought that people sent entries off without dates, but I do know that some organisers have changed dates on entry forms, but before the ride.
If you want the points, SR series or whatever, then I reckon you'd get your entries in on time, just as you have to faff about at controls for till reciepts. But if you just want the ride, I doubt you'd be all that bothered about validation anyway?

[phil d]

I always thought it was a hard rule that the entry form had to reach the organiser before the ride took place. Some calendar event organisers (like El Supremo) insist on entries sent in before  two weeks or more before the ride. But for permanents, I've always thought that as long as you get a completed entry form in, including the date of the event, before you begin riding the event, it's OK.

And that's exactly as I understand it.  The 48-hour idea was suggested up-thread, and at the time I supported it.  But comments from both Mr Weir and yourself made me realise it was wrong.

For "policing". I'd say that the ride should only be validated if it has actually been entered via a completed entry form, including date of ride.
I never thought that people sent entries off without dates, but I do know that some organisers have changed dates on entry forms, but before the ride.
If you want the points, SR series or whatever, then I reckon you'd get your entries in on time, just as you have to faff about at controls for till reciepts. But if you just want the ride, I doubt you'd be all that bothered about validation anyway?

I have put in more than one perm entry with "date to be confirmed", most recently a couple of days ago for Marlborough Connection.  So I have not yet specified a date, but I will do so several days before I ride it.  I have also deferred a perm at very short notice recently (though I now know that particular organiser doesn't want to know). 

There is no need to change the rules or regulations, but perhaps there is a need to tighten up their observance.

[3peaker]

So, apart from what the Regulations and Rules and Guidelines say and the fact that we have an Army of disconnected riders/Organisers, interpreting these as it suits them, what are the ‘Real World’ implications of non-notification in the event of needing the AUK Insurance (verses BC or CTC Insurance which offers undated cover).

I think at the end of the day we want to encourage safe and adventurous long distance cycling, with the minimum of Bureaucracy. As an Organiser/Rider, I want to receive/complete a Brevet Card from which a Validator can confirm the Event has been completed within the guidelines of the Organiser’s Control requirements.

It could be that the only requirement is a statement in the Regs/Rules that advises:
 “If riding under the provision of AUK Insurance, riders are required to notify the Organiser of their intention to ride before they start their ride.  Otherwise, AUK Insurance is invalid.”

An added requirement to this would be that where Organisers are advised they keep records of appointed dates, which is quite easy if communication is by email.

As I mentioned in my previous thread, policing by a couple dozen Organisers will result in that number of interpretations. We need to keep this simple and compliant with Insurance Policies and Proofs of Passage Rules.  Much else can be overcome by back-dating. My particular position, and sub55s frustrated observation, reflect polar similarities from different perspectives.  As an example of doing someone else’s Perm I holidayed in Eire in 2009 and could only give the Organiser a 2 week window when I might ride.  It would have been a pain to have notified the Organiser of exact date, the night before my ride, from a campsite, miles from anywhere.

Rules for riding Calendars are pretty straightforward, as you need to turn up at the start to receive a Brevet Card, no matter how the Organiser accepts your entry. But once you have a Perm Brevet, I accept JWs Perm page guidance as best common sense. 

 SteveP

[Greenbank]

So, apart from what the Regulations and Rules and Guidelines say and the fact that we have an Army of disconnected riders/Organisers, interpreting these as it suits them, what are the ‘Real World’ implications of non-notification in the event of needing the AUK Insurance (verses BC or CTC Insurance which offers undated cover).

BC/CTC insurance offers third party insurance for the rider only. AIUI Audax UK's rider/event insurance covers more than this.

For undated rides BC/CTC insurance won't provide any cover for the DIY organiser or Audax UK should someone (third party or the rider themselves) come up with some reason why they would sue them because of a DIY/Perm rider's actions.

Granted, I can't think of a reason why someone would be able to successfully sue Audax UK or the DIY organiser for the actions of a rider on a DIY, but if insurance is there it can be used to help defend against unnecessary claims. A perm is slightly different, a Perm organiser has more responsibility given that they are providing a routesheet and information. Still it's unlikely (but not impossible).

If AUK, or the organiser, want to avoid this by saying "we're not responsible as the rider hadn't entered the event properly by not providing me with an intended ride date" then all such Brevets (that occur without accident) should be refused validation.

The other point is about stating what you are trying to achieve before doing it.

Take the LEL route and create a series of DIYs such as:-

London, Gamlingay
London, Gamlingay, London
London, Gamlingay, Thurlby
London, Gamlingay, Thurlby, Gamlingay
London, Gamlingay, Thurlby, Gamlingay, London
London, Gamlingay, Thurlby, Lincoln
London, Gamlingay, Thurlby, Lincoln, Thurlby
London, Gamlingay, Thurlby, Lincoln, Thurlby, Gamlingay
...etc...

Now you can just set off from London and see how far you get. You've theoretically entered all of these DIYs in advance (by getting the distances confirmed and buying a multi-pack of DIY cards) so why bother telling anyone which one you're actually doing? You may set off intending to just do a one way ride to Lincoln for 200km, but you're feeling strong when you get to Lincoln so you decide to turn back and ride all the way back to London, only to get bored at Gamlingay and call it a day and put in a claim for a 300km ride.

Now compare that to someone who enters London to Edinburgh and back but packs at Gamlingay on the way back due to illness. 1350km done and 0 points. No chance of claiming anything.

Doesn't apply quite so  much to Perms but I'm sure there are some with common starting points and common controls.