Author Topic: Value for money in the Audax world  (Read 12042 times)

whosatthewheel

Value for money in the Audax world
« on: 18 February, 2019, 09:53:47 am »
Hopefully this won't be a can of worms...

Most of the events I do and indeed the one I am organising are around the 10 pound mark, for that riders get card, validation, a village hall HQ, a light breakfast, some food at the finish and in some cases even some extra along the way. I think it is brilliant value for money.

However, I have also done other events where I get absolutely nothing other than card + validation and pay 6 pounds. Car park start, cafe' finish with nothing paid for and nothing in between, commercial controls.

Now, Brevet card is 55p, validation and a stamp to send the card back (if needed ) is another pound or so. Let's say that overall, the organiser spends 2 quid per rider (and I am being generous as some riders will submit their own SAE, some riders will DNS or DNF)... why charge 6? ::-)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #1 on: 18 February, 2019, 10:09:16 am »
Hopefully this won't be a can of worms...

Most of the events I do and indeed the one I am organising are around the 10 pound mark, for that riders get card, validation, a village hall HQ, a light breakfast, some food at the finish and in some cases even some extra along the way. I think it is brilliant value for money.

However, I have also done other events where I get absolutely nothing other than card + validation and pay 6 pounds. Car park start, cafe' finish with nothing paid for and nothing in between, commercial controls.

Now, Brevet card is 55p, validation and a stamp to send the card back (if needed ) is another pound or so. Let's say that overall, the organiser spends 2 quid per rider (and I am being generous as some riders will submit their own SAE, some riders will DNS or DNF)... why charge 6? ::-)

How much of this stays with the organiser and how much goes to AUK? If AUK remember, they have a giant white elephant that needs feeding...

Round these parts all brevets are BRM, they cost about €5-6 (maybe a bit more for longer events), and are what AUK would call X rated. Some starts have tea/coffee at the start, if you are lucky there may be a secret control with drink and chocolate, and maybe soup at the end.

It always struck me as good value, and I know that any money left over goes towards helping the national club keep going, and every so often if there is a massive surplus, we get subsidised club kit.

As for your costs listed, don't forget that if you pay by paypal, then that's another 30p or so on your six quid. Then you have the costs for the org of scouting and planning. I don't see a problem with any excess funds going to cover the costs of the org doing their scouting rides.

Ultimately it's all tiny money, and exceptionally good value. I wouldn't quibble too much.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #2 on: 18 February, 2019, 10:16:37 am »
 ::-) ::-) ::-) ::-)

I have already quantified what goes to AUK in around 2 quid per rider... + insurance for non AUK members, but those will pay for it... 9 pounds instead of 6 entry fee, so not needed in the surplus calculation.

For 50 riders, there is a surplus of 185 pounds, for 100 there is a surplus of 370 pounds... including the Paypal fee... give or take

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #3 on: 18 February, 2019, 10:23:22 am »
Seems fine to me given the amount of faff involved in putting an event on.

It is silly how vague most events are about catering - some of them put loads of effort in and make no mention of it in the description, so I usually assume there'll be none.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #4 on: 18 February, 2019, 10:24:28 am »
::-) ::-) ::-) ::-)

I have already quantified what goes to AUK in around 2 quid per rider... + insurance for non AUK members, but those will pay for it... 9 pounds instead of 6 entry fee, so not needed in the surplus calculation.

For 50 riders, there is a surplus of 185 pounds, for 100 there is a surplus of 370 pounds... including the Paypal fee... give or take

Given I spend about 20-30 euro on food during an X rated event, and the organiser has to do the route at least twice, once to check the plan the first time, and a final route check a week or so before. So that's about another 50 quid, which is the same if you have 10 riders, or if you have 200...

We're still talking tiny amounts of money here.

Maybe set up your own X rated event with cafe controls, a car park start, and postal finish, and advertise it for 3 quid, see how if you break even...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #5 on: 18 February, 2019, 10:32:44 am »
Seems fine to me given the amount of faff involved in putting an event on.

It is silly how vague most events are about catering - some of them put loads of effort in and make no mention of it in the description, so I usually assume there'll be none.

I agree... there might be an element of not wanting to commit until the numbers are certain.

That said, I have done a few events where I got nothing more than validation for 6 pounds and given they were BP, even validation was of not much use... given a Perm or DIY costs half of that, I wonder where the rest of the money has gone. If there are 20 riders on the line, I don't mind, but when there are 100, I really really would like to know where the money has gone.


quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #6 on: 18 February, 2019, 10:37:41 am »
I agree... there might be an element of not wanting to commit until the numbers are certain.

That said, I have done a few events where I got nothing more than validation for 6 pounds and given they were BP, even validation was of not much use... given a Perm or DIY costs half of that, I wonder where the rest of the money has gone. If there are 20 riders on the line, I don't mind, but when there are 100, I really really would like to know where the money has gone.

A single DIY virtual brevet comes in at 4 quid. So for an organised ride, it's only an extra 2 quid...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #7 on: 18 February, 2019, 10:59:30 am »
One of my local small Audax's has a well catered village hall HQ and usually has enough left over for a small donation to the Air Ambulance. That's all nice and that, but I'm not sure I'd care if the org was pocketing it and having a takeway for them and their family that night instead. 

If someone is willing to put in the time organising a ride for us to do, it's their prerogative what they charge and what they do with any surplus.

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #8 on: 18 February, 2019, 11:07:47 am »
I can live with an organiser making 300 quid out of an event (though I'm sure most don't and some even lose).  £300 is about two plumber-hours, twenty minutes at the dentist with no guarantee of satisfaction from either.  Many riders actually enjoy Audaxes; very few people enjoy a visit from the plumber - except in porn films.   If you divided the (notional) £300 by the hours the organiser has actually spent, even on event day alone it would probably be well below minimum wage once you had taken out money for cards, food, petrol, etc.

It's a fair enough thread but nobody makes anyone ride an Audax.


X-post with Peat

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #9 on: 18 February, 2019, 11:56:33 am »
If there are 20 riders on the line, I don't mind, but when there are 100, I really really would like to know where the money has gone.

???

I'm 100% happy for any surplus to go into the organiser's pocket. I don't know why you think that's scandalous?

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #10 on: 18 February, 2019, 12:09:05 pm »
You have to budget for likely minimum numbers.  Once costs are set, they're set.  Any surplus on my events goes to my club, minus enough to cover my costs.

whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #11 on: 18 February, 2019, 12:10:31 pm »
If there are 20 riders on the line, I don't mind, but when there are 100, I really really would like to know where the money has gone.

???

I'm 100% happy for any surplus to go into the organiser's pocket. I don't know why you think that's scandalous?

Not scandalous and I'm not even saying that the money goes in th e organiser's pockets... might go for charity for what I know...

whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #12 on: 18 February, 2019, 12:15:13 pm »
You have to budget for likely minimum numbers.  Once costs are set, they're set.  Any surplus on my events goes to my club, minus enough to cover my costs.

But if you don't hire a hall and have no manned controls (and these are the events I refer to), you basically don't have fixed costs... everything is per rider, so 10 or 100 makes do difference to the cost per rider

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #13 on: 18 February, 2019, 12:28:30 pm »
Time and money spent creating & checking routes, food & drink at the finish of some events.  What goes to the club helps support our youth academy riders.  I'm not going to do detailed accounts, so I put in a reasonable figure which I'm confident will be on the right side of break-even.

whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #14 on: 18 February, 2019, 12:33:32 pm »
Time and money spent creating & checking routes, food & drink at the finish of some events.  What goes to the club helps support our youth academy riders.  I'm not going to do detailed accounts, so I put in a reasonable figure which I'm confident will be on the right side of break-even.

Agree, but that's not what I am talking about. I am referring to those events which have no costs associated... other than maybe creating and checking the route.

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #15 on: 18 February, 2019, 12:35:53 pm »
Hopefully this won't be a can of worms...

Most of the events I do and indeed the one I am organising are around the 10 pound mark, for that riders get card, validation, a village hall HQ, a light breakfast, some food at the finish and in some cases even some extra along the way. I think it is brilliant value for money.

However, I have also done other events where I get absolutely nothing other than card + validation and pay 6 pounds. Car park start, cafe' finish with nothing paid for and nothing in between, commercial controls.

Now, Brevet card is 55p, validation and a stamp to send the card back (if needed ) is another pound or so. Let's say that overall, the organiser spends 2 quid per rider (and I am being generous as some riders will submit their own SAE, some riders will DNS or DNF)... why charge 6? ::-)

Knowing how much effort that you are putting into the particular audax, £10 is remarkably good value.  It certainly within most people's budgets and easily beats the socks off commercial/charity events.

Generally speaking, my fees are approximately the same and I am providing reasonably similar. Similar to Ian (above), any surplus is invested by the club into bursaries, a youth academy and other activities.
Organiser of Droitwich Cycling Club audaxes.  https://www.droitwichcyclingclub.co.uk/audax/

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #16 on: 18 February, 2019, 12:47:05 pm »

If someone is willing to put in the time organising a ride for us to do, it's their prerogative what they charge and what they do with any surplus.

I don't think there is much more to add than the above, I honestly find this even being raised mind boggling.


Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #17 on: 18 February, 2019, 12:48:32 pm »
Time and money spent creating & checking routes, food & drink at the finish of some events.  What goes to the club helps support our youth academy riders.  I'm not going to do detailed accounts, so I put in a reasonable figure which I'm confident will be on the right side of break-even.

Agree, but that's not what I am talking about. I am referring to those events which have no costs associated... other than maybe creating and checking the route.

You mean like my Back to the Smoke 400 or either of the Buzzard 600s?

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #18 on: 18 February, 2019, 12:50:53 pm »
Time and money spent creating & checking routes, food & drink at the finish of some events.  What goes to the club helps support our youth academy riders.  I'm not going to do detailed accounts, so I put in a reasonable figure which I'm confident will be on the right side of break-even.

Agree, but that's not what I am talking about. I am referring to those events which have no costs associated... other than maybe creating and checking the route.

I have never been an organiser but it strikes me that it would take several days' effort to design and check a route. A 'short' 100km ride would need at least a couple of hours of paperwork, followed by one or two days of 7 hours away from home. Subsistence during that time might not be cheap and I would not expect an organiser to eat sandwiches in the rain to save money.

It grieves me to see adults quibbling over Bank of Toytown sums.

whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #19 on: 18 February, 2019, 12:51:21 pm »
... and easily beats the socks off commercial/charity events.

Funny you should say that, as that's the reason I started this. Yesterday I did a sportive from Coventry, paid 12 pounds for food at the feed zone + food at the finish, timing chip etc and they put a large donation to a local charity.
It's club organised and could well be an Audax, looking as some AUK multi decorated folks I spotted in the crowd.

In AUK we like to praise ourselves for the exceptional good value of our rides, but is it ALWAYS the case? 6 pounds is very little money in the grand scheme of things, but if you get nothing for it, is it such good value compared to unaffiliated reliability rides and club organised sportives and charity rides?

bairn again

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #20 on: 18 February, 2019, 12:54:34 pm »
Its up to an organiser what they do with the cash.  Organising an event takes time and if an organiser decides that any excess is their reward for the effort of having put on an event then thats their call.  If you think the entry fee is high relative to event facilities, dont enter. 

Organisesr are a decent bunch overall and riders likewise and would get wise pretty quickly to anything resembling profiteering.  Ive never seen an event that comes anywhere close to that. 

One other point that ive learned in the 10 or so years that ive been an organiser is that a very low entry fee will almost certainly drive up the number of DNS riders so any event - egardless of its costs - is better having an entry set at the minimum level to discourage frivolous entries....and £6 is probably about the level that folk will stop before thinking if they are really serious or not (*)

I try to ensure that riders get VFM on events and have on occasion stuck a fiver into folks brevet cards & run an open bar tab at the event finish to ensure thats happened.

(*) i was once told that the exchange rate from real life to audax is £1 : £10  :o

whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #21 on: 18 February, 2019, 12:56:41 pm »

It grieves me to see adults quibbling over Bank of Toytown sums.

... sure, but I when I joined the organiser's book, I never thought about charging for my time. Something is either a hobby or a job... if it's a hobby then I don't want to charge.
Putting money towards club development or charity or putting money aside for the following year's event (to make it better) are all good ways to channel any unintended profit



whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #22 on: 18 February, 2019, 12:58:35 pm »


One other point that ive learned in the 10 or so years that ive been an organiser is that a very low entry fee will almost certainly drive up the number of DNS riders so any event - egardless of its costs - is better having an entry set at the minimum level to discourage frivolous entries....and £6 is probably about the level that folk will stop before thinking if they are really serious or not (*)


That's a good point actually... is there any evidence of that being the case though? Lots of people DNS at events costing north of £ 30

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #23 on: 18 February, 2019, 12:59:52 pm »
...
 is it such good value compared to unaffiliated reliability rides and club organised sportives and charity rides?
Who cares??

I didn't join AUK specifically to make other rides look expensive!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #24 on: 18 February, 2019, 01:10:33 pm »

It grieves me to see adults quibbling over Bank of Toytown sums.

... sure, but I when I joined the organiser's book, I never thought about charging for my time. Something is either a hobby or a job... if it's a hobby then I don't want to charge.
Putting money towards club development or charity or putting money aside for the following year's event (to make it better) are all good ways to channel any unintended profit

My hobby is gardening.
If I'm organising for charity then I'm happy to give time and resources free.  If it's a commercial event then I'll want a commercial rate.  For other events (I run AUK events and a time-trial), I want to ensure I'm not out of pocket.