Author Topic: Resolution 2  (Read 15270 times)

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #175 on: 20 February, 2023, 10:20:31 pm »

At some point there needs to be some cycling for cycling's sake, just like the Premier League at some level has to connect with 8 year old boys using jumpers for goalposts. Unless the shiny badgers have run off in those jumpers.

Well yes, that's what the CTC is for, or local clubs.  AUK isn't all-encompassing, it deals with a small niche area of cycling. 

JonB

  • Granny Ring ... Yes Please!
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #176 on: 21 February, 2023, 08:42:09 am »
I can imagine that some people aiming for 100 points wouldn't care to aim for 10,000km, because a lot of audaxers are nerdy like that. But some would care the other way round.

In a way the points serve(d) to disintermediate distance and achievement. If your shiny badge or name in lights is explicitly for riding 10,000km rather than gaining 100 points, then it no longer makes sense to exclude shorter audaxes. It even becomes questionable to exclude non-audax riding. At which point you're left with the mile eater diary.
That doesn't reflect my thinking. I've achieved the brevet 10,000 3 times and I always conflated the 100 points with 10,000km. The key to the distance is that it's 10,000 km achieved at randonneur pace/distances not just 10,000km and the satisfaction is derived from fulfilling those criteria. I've just checked on the AUK website and the award doesn't actually mention the points and focuses on the distance. I guess my overall point is that the points thing for personal awards is just a marker for distance achieved under various criteria including BP, BRM BR and LRM.

Wycombewheeler

  • PBP-2019 LEL-2022
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #177 on: 21 February, 2023, 09:15:12 am »
I don't think the individual points championship is a serious motivation to more than a dozen people each year. Club championships might motivate entire clubs, but only certain clubs. But the existence of points motivates many more, whether it's to gain certain awards, achieve personal goals, or just some nebulous belongingness. It would surely be possible to award points for those who want to keep tally but not publish an official list or ranking, and award shiny badgers to all who qualify (if they want them). But half a point is just odd. If points for 50km are really wanted, just start a new points system from next year with 1 point for 50km, 2 for 100, etc.

Probably less, last year the points record was 264  :o only the top 10 had more than half that total, second place was 50 points behind
in 2021 the points record was a more reasonable 179, and only the top 10 went past 100 points

In both seasons only one other rider could be considered to be in contention (by the end of the season), and even that is a stretch with a winning margin of 40 points

IMO the 100 points in a season is more of a motivator for people to ride more events, but even that is only affecting a small percentage of the membership.

But both for the points championship and even 100 points a season probably have as much impact on DIYs, (yes I know the 50/50 rule) but to be at the top of the leaderboard requires riding far more events than can be available locally anywhere. Therefore, DIYs have to do a lot of lifting

Eddington  127miles, 170km

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #178 on: 21 February, 2023, 09:17:48 am »
the award doesn't actually mention the points

Thanks for confirming this - I was pretty sure it was the case but hadn't bothered checking hence didn't mention it before.

I might be motivated by some awards - eg SR, especially in a PBP year of course - but points are irrelevant there.

Even for personal benchmarking purposes, I would find points of limited value - eg I would not consider 12x100 a comparable achievement to 2x600.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #179 on: 21 February, 2023, 09:31:21 am »

At some point there needs to be some cycling for cycling's sake, just like the Premier League at some level has to connect with 8 year old boys using jumpers for goalposts. Unless the shiny badgers have run off in those jumpers.

Well yes, that's what the CTC is for, or local clubs.  AUK isn't all-encompassing, it deals with a small niche area of cycling.
But I meant within the context of audax. Badges, points and championships might motivate people to do more but they still have to enjoy cycling (a long way).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #180 on: 21 February, 2023, 09:42:35 am »

At some point there needs to be some cycling for cycling's sake, just like the Premier League at some level has to connect with 8 year old boys using jumpers for goalposts. Unless the shiny badgers have run off in those jumpers.

Well yes, that's what the CTC is for, or local clubs.  AUK isn't all-encompassing, it deals with a small niche area of cycling.
But I meant within the context of audax. Badges, points and championships might motivate people to do more but they still have to enjoy cycling (a long way).

Think instead 'within the context of cycling'.  All the disciplines from road-racing to randonnées, via touring, club runs, coffee rides, are available to all cyclists.  There are no closed shops. 

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #181 on: 21 February, 2023, 10:37:57 am »
There are no closed shops.

Maybe not, but there are many barriers to entry - however, I don't see this rule change addressing those barriers in any meaningful way.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #182 on: 21 February, 2023, 12:28:18 pm »
Even for personal benchmarking purposes, I would find points of limited value - eg I would not consider 12x100 a comparable achievement to 2x600.

Indeed, the first is clearly harder.

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #183 on: 21 February, 2023, 12:38:57 pm »
There are no closed shops.

Maybe not, but there are many barriers to entry - however, I don't see this rule change addressing those barriers in any meaningful way.

I was thinking more of finding cycling activities outside audax.  But I'm not sure what barriers you mean, apart from basic competence and fitness. 

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #184 on: 21 February, 2023, 04:33:58 pm »
I haven't read the entire thread so apologies if this has been repeated a dozen times already.

I am in favour as it provides additional encouragement in riding to an event. I have a 200km calendar event 32 kms away so would need to do a silly loopy to extend it up to 50kms in order to qualify for an ECE (after having made a similar return leg). There are a number of events with a similar distance from my home location which I'm looking at and thinking, why ride the 40kms to that 200/300km event when I could just hop in the car and arrive fresh. I doubt I'd use this change to gather points for anything other than ECE'ing but to say others shouldn't is a little bit snobbish in my view.

The change would further encourage people of all abilities to ride and present the organisation as being even more inclusive.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #185 on: 21 February, 2023, 04:36:06 pm »
But I'm not sure what barriers you mean, apart from basic competence and fitness.

To pick an easy example, a single parent who has to fit in cycling around childcare availability. Such a person won't be "motivated" or "encouraged" to do an audax by the offer of a "point", which makes a nonsense of claims that broadening the range of events that qualify for points is about inclusivity.

I'm not really disagreeing with the point you were making - more going off on a tangent with a different point.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #186 on: 21 February, 2023, 04:41:43 pm »
There's also a risk of throwing the baby out with the bath water* - inclusivity is a noble aim but if AUK tries to become too broad a church, it will risk alienating the core audience.

AUK must never lose sight of its original reason for existing, namely to enable UK riders to qualify for PBP.


*not sure this is the appropriate idiom but never mind
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #187 on: 21 February, 2023, 06:09:40 pm »
Even for personal benchmarking purposes, I would find points of limited value - eg I would not consider 12x100 a comparable achievement to 2x600.

Indeed, the first is clearly harder.

It's not about whether one is harder than the other, it's whether they are comparable achievements. I'd say they're too different for them to be comparable in any meaningful way. That's an extreme and purely hypothetical example anyway, but it's chosen to highlight why I would consider my points tally to be of limited value as a benchmark to compare my personal achievements from one year to the next.


why ride the 40kms to that 200/300km event when I could just hop in the car and arrive fresh

Didn't there used to be something in the handbook about being "imbued with the spirit of long-distance cycling"?
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #188 on: 21 February, 2023, 06:12:44 pm »
Even for personal benchmarking purposes, I would find points of limited value - eg I would not consider 12x100 a comparable achievement to 2x600.

Indeed, the first is clearly harder.

It's not about whether one is harder than the other, it's whether they are comparable achievements. I'd say they're too different for them to be comparable in any meaningful way. That's an extreme and purely hypothetical example anyway, but it's chosen to highlight why I would consider my points tally to be of limited value as a benchmark to compare my personal achievements from one year to the next.


why ride the 40kms to that 200/300km event when I could just hop in the car and arrive fresh

Didn't there used to be something in the handbook about being "imbued with the spirit of long-distance cycling"?

When I ran the Kernow & SW 600 I ran a control at Bude, so I could make everyone groan by saying I was in Bude with the spirit of Audax.

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #189 on: 21 February, 2023, 07:32:22 pm »
Even for personal benchmarking purposes, I would find points of limited value - eg I would not consider 12x100 a comparable achievement to 2x600.

Indeed, the first is clearly harder.

It's not about whether one is harder than the other,

I was trolling, apologies you took it as a serious response  :facepalm: The points championship was never about who has done the “hardest” audaxing, just who has done the most? Even a single 600 can be vastly different depending on the weather conditions at time undertaken.

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #190 on: 21 February, 2023, 09:05:01 pm »
There's also a risk of throwing the baby out with the bath water* - inclusivity is a noble aim but if AUK tries to become too broad a church, it will risk alienating the core audience.

AUK must never lose sight of its original reason for existing, namely to enable UK riders to qualify for PBP.


*not sure this is the appropriate idiom but never mind

I think my membership has currently lapsed (sorry bhoot!) and a combination of circumstances over the past few years had basically taken me off the bike almost completely. Even when I actually rode m'bike a reasonable amount, I was probably the least serious audaxer in the universe. I've never done a 200, only done one 100 I think - I joked for years that perhaps I would try to get a (singular) point one day and was generally told that I couldn't because they came in pairs. Of course I then replied that maybe one day I'd do a 100 with a triple A, which the Real Audaxers would have to concede was indeed a possibility. At least technically :D

As a somewhat skint non-driving working parent of littlies then a more skint still non-driving working single parent, often with a bit too much Life going on, there was never really an audax-shaped space in my life. I managed the few 50s mostly with a kid or two in tow, and my solitary 100 took quite a lot or organising and negotiating to find the time - it was totally worth it though. A simply delightful day out in the splendid company of the late and much-missed jogler.

Realistically, I'm never going to ride PBP or anything quite so silly. I'm OK with that, and will cheer the rest of you on as you do. If I ever manage to get back to being vaguely competent at riding my bike something resembling a long way, I do quite like the idea of a 200, one day. For now, a 50 would be pretty aspirational, but fingers crossed. Since a well-planned 50 is a lovely way to spend a few hours (especially when the end control is somewhere you can socialise and it coincides with some of your 2d friends doing a proper audax, so you can catch up with them after) I really won't need a pity (half) point for it.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #191 on: 21 February, 2023, 09:05:35 pm »
I was trolling, apologies you took it as a serious response  :facepalm:

I wouldn't go so far as to say I took it seriously!  ;)
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #192 on: 21 February, 2023, 09:10:53 pm »
I managed the few 50s mostly with a kid or two in tow, and my solitary 100 took quite a lot or organising and negotiating to find the time - it was totally worth it though. A simply delightful day out in the splendid company of the late and much-missed jogler.

The only 50 I've ever done was in the company of my son, when he was 9, and it's still one of my most enjoyable audaxes ever.

Points schmoints.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #193 on: 21 February, 2023, 09:34:00 pm »
Presunktly. BPs have given me some of my loveliest days out on a bike.

Mind, it still narks me that my youngest never did get his card back, or the medal I ordered, for his one and only 50!

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #194 on: 22 February, 2023, 10:01:15 am »

At some point there needs to be some cycling for cycling's sake, just like the Premier League at some level has to connect with 8 year old boys using jumpers for goalposts. Unless the shiny badgers have run off in those jumpers.

Well yes, that's what the CTC is for, or local clubs.  AUK isn't all-encompassing, it deals with a small niche area of cycling.
But I meant within the context of audax. Badges, points and championships might motivate people to do more but they still have to enjoy cycling (a long way).

Think instead 'within the context of cycling'.  All the disciplines from road-racing to randonnées, via touring, club runs, coffee rides, are available to all cyclists.  There are no closed shops.
Of course. I think there's virtually no one who audaxes but doesn't also do some other form of cycling. It might be their favourite niche, but it's just one niche. But how does that apply to points for 50s?

I'm saying that, although for some people points (badges, etc) might be part of what makes audax their favourite niche, they wouldn't be doing it for the points alone; they do it because they enjoy cycling. For some people, that means that if you take away or rearrange the points, audax will no longer be their niche and they'll do time trialling or downhilling; and for others, it will make little to no difference, they just enjoy riding long distances.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #195 on: 22 February, 2023, 10:54:05 am »
We'll be validating Zwift rides next. Such inclusivity.

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #196 on: 22 February, 2023, 11:34:57 am »
why ride the 40kms to that 200/300km event when I could just hop in the car and arrive fresh

Didn't there used to be something in the handbook about being "imbued with the spirit of long-distance cycling"?


I only ever read as far as "imbued with the spirit"  ;D

Wycombewheeler

  • PBP-2019 LEL-2022
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #197 on: 22 February, 2023, 12:15:08 pm »
We'll be validating Zwift rides next. Such inclusivity.
if anyone rides 200km on Zwift in one go, I will not begrudge them 2 points

Eddington  127miles, 170km

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #198 on: 22 February, 2023, 01:10:47 pm »
We'll be validating Zwift rides next. Such inclusivity.
if anyone rides 200km on Zwift in one go, I will not begrudge them 2 points

But at Zwift speed that’s just under 5 hours…

Wycombewheeler

  • PBP-2019 LEL-2022
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #199 on: 22 February, 2023, 01:25:04 pm »
We'll be validating Zwift rides next. Such inclusivity.
if anyone rides 200km on Zwift in one go, I will not begrudge them 2 points

But at Zwift speed that’s just under 5 hours…
I did 174km on Zwift, it took me 7 hours (6:35 moving) felt wrecked, never again. (multiple laps of surrey hills though, maybe quicker on a flat course) this was the pru full course
Meanwhile on the actual ride London on real roads, I made it round in under 5 hours total.

I can be fast on Zwift over an hour or two, but after that  it just becomes painful.

Eddington  127miles, 170km