Post by: Geriatricdolan on 29 March, 2021, 10:19:55 am
with some form of respiratory hygiene requirement probably here to stay, is the idea of sharing a sweaty blanket at BCM or LEL still something that will be OK?
Will supported long brevets still be something organisers are keen to offer, or we are looking at a future of 200BR + a number of X-rated BRM?
Post by: Frank9755 on 29 March, 2021, 10:31:42 am
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 29 March, 2021, 10:36:02 am
I'm expecting LEL to run next year, possibly with some restrictions on international arrivals.
All talk of things never being the same again is as extreme as those arguing to remove all restrictions now.
Current roadmap lists removing ALL restrictions in June this year. On that basis long audax rides would be allowed, although there may be a significant number of people not prepared sleep in communal dormitories, this would not appear to be banned.
Post by: John Stonebridge on 29 March, 2021, 11:26:24 am
Small and X rated events will recover quite quickly and you could argue they have already.
From my perspective as a UK rider and organiser of events in Scotland I believe that the trend re controls will continue away from traditional village hall TLC to commercial premises and as a result we’ll see calendar events and DIYs becoming more similar in future. It’s conceivable then that there will be far fewer calendar events especially at 200km and maybe even we will see a future where only a limited number of “classics” will remain on the calendar.
Barriers to international travel will remain greater than they were pre pandemic for longer than a lot of people seem to believe (and possibly not just for Covid related reasons). Therefore imho its big flagship international audax events that are least likely to resume in their pre pandemic form.
Similarly in future it’s likely that a greater proportion of 600km+ events will be X rated (or will place greater reliance on commercial premises).
Post by: Ivo on 29 March, 2021, 11:30:25 am
With the advent of fast selftests, more will be possible.
Yes, indeed, jetting to the other end of the world for a 1200 and returning within a week, that will be something that won't return that easily, so audaxing will be more self sufficient per continent.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 29 March, 2021, 11:37:28 am
Post by: Ivo on 29 March, 2021, 12:50:36 pm
I could perfectly envisage a return of the registration by country to keep a sort of national bubble for the day before the start.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 29 March, 2021, 01:20:40 pm
I don't think respiratory hygiene is here to stay, by 2025 life will be back to pre pandemic, international travel, crowds hygiene all as before.
I disagree. Most people didn't know that we lose at least 7,000 every year due to the common flu, despite the vaccine and I think the idea of going to work with a temperature and a couple of pills of paracetamol as we used to do will be unthinkable for the foreseeable future.
Stats on Covid and other seasonal diseases are here to stay, the news have fed on that for one year and won't let go, unless numbers are so dull that nobody cares, but numbers on flu alone are quite juicy and numbers on Covid will keep existing despite vaccines. As a result, I can see a reluctance to share crowded dormitories with people you never met before, or have a dump in a toilet used by another fifty randonneurs and not cleaned for hours... it would feel a bit like a ticket to a chickenpox party, which have somehow lost popularity
Post by: LiamFitz on 29 March, 2021, 01:31:15 pm
Almost everyone has a GPS these days - so the value of having someone plot a route for you is diminished (and with Ride with GPS and Garmin you can probably find something interesting to ride quite easily)
If you want to compare yourself or get "points" Strava partly fulfils some of that need
As a CUK member I have insurance.
The one thing that still stands for me is the social element - I like to see new faces at the start of rides (and old ones at the end) and to know that while I'mon the road there is a body of like minded people out and about. But increasingly I'm seeing posts from people saying "I'm doing X ride on this date - rock up and ride..."
This is a bit of a doomsday scenario but it would be interesting to hear how the club can come out of hibernation with a bang.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 29 March, 2021, 01:43:00 pm
I wonder if the issue is in fact about digital changing the landscape - rather than the covid hiatus.
Almost everyone has a GPS these days - so the value of having someone plot a route for you is diminished (and with Ride with GPS and Garmin you can probably find something interesting to ride quite easily)
I am always surprised by the number of people who seem to think there is some "magic" in the Audax routes... most are fairly obvious ways to go from A to B and almost all of them can be improved upon if mileage is not an issue.
I once plotted a route through the Cambrian mountains, just with the idea of going for a ride in Wales... it turned out it was the same route used by the Elenith to cross the mountains... well, guess what? It's the only bloody route you can pick to do that kind of loop.
Point is (before I miss it) there is still a demand for pre-packaged routes with that perceived "magic", since most people have no confidence with the idea of plotting a route, any route, even in their local area, they rarely move away from the pre-packaged routes their local club defaults on.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 29 March, 2021, 01:56:52 pm
Interesting question.
Small and X rated events will recover quite quickly and you could argue they have already.
From my perspective as a UK rider and organiser of events in Scotland I believe that the trend re controls will continue away from traditional village hall TLC to commercial premises and as a result we’ll see calendar events and DIYs becoming more similar in future. It’s conceivable then that there will be far fewer calendar events especially at 200km and maybe even we will see a future where only a limited number of “classics” will remain on the calendar.
Thinking over the Scottish rides I've done, they're almost all arguably X-Rated.
The only full controls I can think of I've encountered are Dunblane (once I'd prayed and found it) on the Auld Alliance and Braemar on the most recent running of the Snow Roads.
Other than that it's been the hub nature of the Galashiels 600 and finding Dick or George stamping cards in a café; and a couple of car based checkpoints where it was needed to make the route work.
The Northumbric events are much the same, couple of controls based at campervan or car park, the only sizeable control out on the road was the Colvend sleep stop on the TBAG 600
The only (and therefore also most Northerly) full service event I've done was Deano's Great North Road.
Yorkshire via Essex was IIRC X rated but had both a cafe and pub control on it (due I think to sharing day and inverse of route with the Flatlands), and that was proper south.
Maybe it's just the Southern softies expecting TLC at controls that will end...
:P
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 29 March, 2021, 02:28:50 pm
Maybe it's just the Southern softies expecting TLC at controls that will end...
:P
Maybe...
but the degree of TLC is the difference between a 400 that racks up 150 entries and one that struggles to gather 20.
In the absence of any form of TLC at events, I doubt AUK would manage to keep membership in the thousands
Post by: salar55 on 29 March, 2021, 02:32:40 pm
I wonder if the issue is in fact about digital changing the landscape - rather than the covid hiatus.
Almost everyone has a GPS these days - so the value of having someone plot a route for you is diminished (and with Ride with GPS and Garmin you can probably find something interesting to ride quite easily)
I am always surprised by the number of people who seem to think there is some "magic" in the Audax routes... most are fairly obvious ways to go from A to B and almost all of them can be improved upon if mileage is not an issue.
I once plotted a route through the Cambrian mountains, just with the idea of going for a ride in Wales... it turned out it was the same route used by the Elenith to cross the mountains... well, guess what? It's the only bloody route you can pick to do that kind of loop.
Point is (before I miss it) there is still a demand for pre-packaged routes with that perceived "magic", since most people have no confidence with the idea of plotting a route, any route, even in their local area, they rarely move away from the pre-packaged routes their local club defaults on.
Today's cyclists are so reliant upon the garmin, how many can read a map now? If its got a tickbox name thats all that matters for some. Just look at the Audax scene in Scotland how many are new events? Lets just talk about 2 and 3 hundreds they are all rehashes of old routes or parts of old 400 and 600s. I liked Audax but when you run out of new stuff to ride i can leave it for others. 😁
Post by: L CC on 29 March, 2021, 02:33:17 pm
In the absence of any form of TLC at events, I doubt AUK would manage to keep membership in the thousandsThat doesn't follow at all. Most members don't ride any events.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 29 March, 2021, 02:33:21 pm
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 29 March, 2021, 02:56:24 pm
In the absence of any form of TLC at events, I doubt AUK would manage to keep membership in the thousandsThat doesn't follow at all. Most members don't ride any events.
True, but they probably joined because at some point they entered a well catered for BP with a friend in the know about Audax... they got impressed by the lavish provision of food at the arrivee and thought it was well worth supporting such an amazing organisation.
It's not that they wake up one morning thinking... today I am going to get an AUK membership, with the idea that I will never actually ride an audax!
Post by: L CC on 29 March, 2021, 03:18:55 pm
Post by: FifeingEejit on 29 March, 2021, 03:23:41 pm
Geography and audaxer density is as much a factor in entry size.
Maybe it's just the Southern softies expecting TLC at controls that will end...
Maybe...
but the degree of TLC is the difference between a 400 that racks up 150 entries and one that struggles to gather 20.
In the absence of any form of TLC at events, I doubt AUK would manage to keep membership in the thousands
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Post by: FifeingEejit on 29 March, 2021, 03:24:52 pm
What's the point in reading a map when the route is compulsory and all you can do is follow the instructions?I wonder if the issue is in fact about digital changing the landscape - rather than the covid hiatus.
Almost everyone has a GPS these days - so the value of having someone plot a route for you is diminished (and with Ride with GPS and Garmin you can probably find something interesting to ride quite easily)
I am always surprised by the number of people who seem to think there is some "magic" in the Audax routes... most are fairly obvious ways to go from A to B and almost all of them can be improved upon if mileage is not an issue.
I once plotted a route through the Cambrian mountains, just with the idea of going for a ride in Wales... it turned out it was the same route used by the Elenith to cross the mountains... well, guess what? It's the only bloody route you can pick to do that kind of loop.
Point is (before I miss it) there is still a demand for pre-packaged routes with that perceived "magic", since most people have no confidence with the idea of plotting a route, any route, even in their local area, they rarely move away from the pre-packaged routes their local club defaults on.
Today's cyclists are so reliant upon the garmin, how many can read a map now? If its got a tickbox name thats all that matters for some. Just look at the Audax scene in Scotland how many are new events? Lets just talk about 2 and 3 hundreds they are all rehashes of old routes or parts of old 400 and 600s. I liked Audax but when you run out of new stuff to ride i can leave it for others.
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Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 29 March, 2021, 03:26:20 pm
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 29 March, 2021, 03:37:45 pm
A fair number of audaxers travelled a long way to ride a National 400 in Scotland a few years ago. I think it was support (relative to an X-rated calendar or perm) that brought them that fair.
Yes,
I am sure I could ride a 400 or 600 without any support, but my desire to do so is very small... to be brutally honest, I really don't see the point of entering an x-rated event... it's just a non-event... there will be maybe another guy I can share the road with... easier to just do a perm/DIY at my convenience if I really have that urge.
Post by: Jaded on 29 March, 2021, 03:53:46 pm
I wonder if the issue is in fact about digital changing the landscape - rather than the covid hiatus.
Almost everyone has a GPS these days - so the value of having someone plot a route for you is diminished (and with Ride with GPS and Garmin you can probably find something interesting to ride quite easily)
I am always surprised by the number of people who seem to think there is some "magic" in the Audax routes... most are fairly obvious ways to go from A to B and almost all of them can be improved upon if mileage is not an issue.
I once plotted a route through the Cambrian mountains, just with the idea of going for a ride in Wales... it turned out it was the same route used by the Elenith to cross the mountains... well, guess what? It's the only bloody route you can pick to do that kind of loop.
Point is (before I miss it) there is still a demand for pre-packaged routes with that perceived "magic", since most people have no confidence with the idea of plotting a route, any route, even in their local area, they rarely move away from the pre-packaged routes their local club defaults on.
Today's cyclists are so reliant upon the garmin, how many can read a map now? If its got a tickbox name thats all that matters for some. Just look at the Audax scene in Scotland how many are new events? Lets just talk about 2 and 3 hundreds they are all rehashes of old routes or parts of old 400 and 600s. I liked Audax but when you run out of new stuff to ride i can leave it for others. 😁
That could be something to do with the number of roads?
Post by: citoyen on 29 March, 2021, 04:10:31 pm
the value of having someone plot a route for you is diminished
For me, riding routes devised by other people is pretty much the whole point of Audax. I can go to distant parts and ride a route devised by someone who knows the area, and it is pretty much guaranteed to be better than anything Strava's algorithms can come up with.
Plus the social reasons that you mention, and as LWaB says, there's also the 'well thought-out event' element. Which is one of the reasons I enjoy the LWL 400 so much. :)
It's the whole package, really. Riding X kilometres is just one part of the equation - and not always the most important part.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 29 March, 2021, 04:17:48 pm
I can go to distant parts and ride a route devised by someone who knows the area, and it is pretty much guaranteed to be better than anything Strava's algorithms can come up with.
Is it though?
I always review the route as I rarely trust organisers, unless I know them well. I have been sent on some dreadful A roads, because that's Audax innit! And the alternative quiet lane is not compliant with the 19th century rules of the game...
With limited knowledge of the area, I can often improve on the original route by adding a few km, just by using basic platforms like Streetview.
The technology is there for anybody who has never been to said area to plot the best possible route... that said, majority of people are lazy or lack that confidence
Post by: citoyen on 29 March, 2021, 04:35:51 pm
I can go to distant parts and ride a route devised by someone who knows the area, and it is pretty much guaranteed to be better than anything Strava's algorithms can come up with.
Is it though?
OK, maybe not always.
Still, the point remains that riding other people's routes is one of the main attractions of Audax for me. For others, chasing points or awards is the main motivation. It's a broad church.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 29 March, 2021, 04:37:43 pm
I can go to distant parts and ride a route devised by someone who knows the area, and it is pretty much guaranteed to be better than anything Strava's algorithms can come up with.
Is it though?
OK, maybe not always.
Still, the point remains that riding other people's routes is one of the main attractions of Audax for me. For others, chasing points or awards is the main motivation. It's a broad church.
My main enjoyment is riding in beautiful areas with some TLC. In the absence of TLC, I can organise my own ride
Post by: salar55 on 29 March, 2021, 04:37:47 pm
A fair number of audaxers travelled a long way to ride a National 400 in Scotland a few years ago. I think it was support (relative to an X-rated calendar or perm) that brought them that fair.
Yes but most probably travelled because Steve organised it.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 29 March, 2021, 04:40:36 pm
Post by: Peter on 29 March, 2021, 04:56:48 pm
I can go to distant parts and ride a route devised by someone who knows the area, and it is pretty much guaranteed to be better than anything Strava's algorithms can come up with.
Is it though?
I always review the route as I rarely trust organisers, unless I know them well. I have been sent on some dreadful A roads, because that's Audax innit! And the alternative quiet lane is not compliant with the 19th century rules of the game...
With limited knowledge of the area, I can often improve on the original route by adding a few km, just by using basic platforms like Streetview.
The technology is there for anybody who has never been to said area to plot the best possible route... that said, majority of people are lazy or lack that confidence
Just remind me in which institute you practise psychology again?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 29 March, 2021, 05:09:09 pm
What some people enjoy is the chance to chat to strange men in sweaty lycra while eating beans on toast in a village hall, while others value the opportunity to retreat into their thousand-yard stare or to ride very fast in small group as a distraction from time trials or cyclocross. Or to do all of these things all at once. Not to mention CAEK.I can go to distant parts and ride a route devised by someone who knows the area, and it is pretty much guaranteed to be better than anything Strava's algorithms can come up with.
Is it though?
OK, maybe not always.
Still, the point remains that riding other people's routes is one of the main attractions of Audax for me. For others, chasing points or awards is the main motivation. It's a broad church.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 29 March, 2021, 05:15:31 pm
I can go to distant parts and ride a route devised by someone who knows the area, and it is pretty much guaranteed to be better than anything Strava's algorithms can come up with.
Is it though?
I always review the route as I rarely trust organisers, unless I know them well. I have been sent on some dreadful A roads, because that's Audax innit! And the alternative quiet lane is not compliant with the 19th century rules of the game...
With limited knowledge of the area, I can often improve on the original route by adding a few km, just by using basic platforms like Streetview.
The technology is there for anybody who has never been to said area to plot the best possible route... that said, majority of people are lazy or lack that confidence
Depends on the organizer, I guess you get to know their idea of good cycling roads.
In more densley populated areas the red line on the Strava heat map becomes meaningless.
There's some cracking roads in Scotland that could only be added into a route with Info controls, and some people piss and moan about them, it also completely excludes them from DIYs because of what I consider to be backwards requirements for identifying you've been somewhere, the rules for SR600 make using them possible again, but not for points scoring.
Lets just talk about 2 and 3 hundreds they are all rehashes of old routes or parts of old 400 and 600s. I liked Audax but when you run out of new stuff to ride i can leave it for others.[/b] 😁
That could be something to do with the number of roads?
[/quote]
Roads? Depends where you are doens't it?
But on other point
Aye most of the Border rides are long standing events, things drop of calendars if they're unpopular or people lose interest, and they're still going and people keep going for them, I've not got bored of them because they're bloody good days out.
As for all the events being rehashes?
Are the North Coast 600, Hellfire Corner and Eileanan Dubh remakes old rides?
What about Talla Ho, Braco Way, Turra Coo, Argyll Alps, Tour of the Ochils, Moulin Muirs, Moscow Express, Lantern Rouge and the Hogmanay 100 to name a few?
All as far as I can tell "new" within the last few years.
Post by: salar55 on 29 March, 2021, 05:35:48 pm
I can go to distant parts and ride a route devised by someone who knows the area, and it is pretty much guaranteed to be better than anything Strava's algorithms can come up with.
Is it though?
I always review the route as I rarely trust organisers, unless I know them well. I have been sent on some dreadful A roads, because that's Audax innit! And the alternative quiet lane is not compliant with the 19th century rules of the game...
With limited knowledge of the area, I can often improve on the original route by adding a few km, just by using basic platforms like Streetview.
The technology is there for anybody who has never been to said area to plot the best possible route... that said, majority of people are lazy or lack that confidence
Depends on the organizer, I guess you get to know their idea of good cycling roads.
In more densley populated areas the red line on the Strava heat map becomes meaningless.
There's some cracking roads in Scotland that could only be added into a route with Info controls, and some people piss and moan about them, it also completely excludes them from DIYs because of what I consider to be backwards requirements for identifying you've been somewhere, the rules for SR600 make using them possible again, but not for points scoring.Lets just talk about 2 and 3 hundreds they are all rehashes of old routes or parts of old 400 and 600s. I liked Audax but when you run out of new stuff to ride i can leave it for others.[/b] 😁
That could be something to do with the number of roads?
Roads? Depends where you are doens't it?
But on other point
Aye most of the Border rides are long standing events, things drop of calendars if they're unpopular or people lose interest, and they're still going and people keep going for them, I've not got bored of them because they're bloody good days out.
As for all the events being rehashes?
Are the North Coast 600, Hellfire Corner and Eileanan Dubh remakes old rides?
What about Talla Ho, Braco Way, Turra Coo, Argyll Alps, Tour of the Ochils, Moulin Muirs, Moscow Express, Lantern Rouge and the Hogmanay 100 to name a few?
All as far as I can tell "new" within the last few years.
[/quote]
The turra coo looks like a new one, when did you start going audax?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 29 March, 2021, 06:04:10 pm
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Post by: Davef on 29 March, 2021, 06:57:32 pm
Since the updates about 6 months ago stravas routing is a bit hit and miss. You can choose popularity routing or shortest and express a preference between paved or not.I can go to distant parts and ride a route devised by someone who knows the area, and it is pretty much guaranteed to be better than anything Strava's algorithms can come up with.
Is it though?
I always review the route as I rarely trust organisers, unless I know them well. I have been sent on some dreadful A roads, because that's Audax innit! And the alternative quiet lane is not compliant with the 19th century rules of the game...
With limited knowledge of the area, I can often improve on the original route by adding a few km, just by using basic platforms like Streetview.
The technology is there for anybody who has never been to said area to plot the best possible route... that said, majority of people are lazy or lack that confidence
Either way it invariably seems to throw in a bit of muddy bridleway and the popularity routing can be a bit of a nightmare. Anywhere near a route of a major event like ride London and you will be sucked onto the route which was probably fine when the roads were closed. Relatively near me is the village of Brill which is on top of a mound and lots of people like cycling up it. With popularity routing all routes seem to divert on a random detour to take in Brill which just reinforces its popularity.
I only did audax for the year up to pbp 2019. Of the five 600s I did only one - the BCM was catered. You still get the social aspect when there are suggested commercial controls. I probably won’t audax until LEL as my attention has been diverted elsewhere now.
Post by: citoyen on 29 March, 2021, 07:29:16 pm
Since the updates about 6 months ago stravas routing is a bit hit and miss. You can choose popularity routing or shortest and express a preference between paved or not.
Either way it invariably seems to throw in a bit of muddy bridleway
This seems to be true of pretty much all route planning apps, in my experience. I've had some bad experiences with RWGPS too. And I tend not to use Popularity routing for the reasons you mention.
Streetview can be helpful up to a point, but it has its blind spots - eg the whole of Germany.
Post by: salar55 on 29 March, 2021, 07:48:25 pm
5 years?
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Well you have missed some of the best years of Audax up here. Quite a few were one off's, due to lack of support from Audax members . Why would racing clubs ( before sportives took off ) and DA's run an Audax if they never broke even. Our CTC DA ran 7 different audax's ,( a 12hr/ 100m in 8hr , 50m in 4hr standard ride could double as a 200/100km Audax ) last one was almost 30 years ago. Enjoyed seeing the country from the SW all the way up to the north coast, now its almost all based in the east.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 29 March, 2021, 08:00:47 pm
Post by: FifeingEejit on 29 March, 2021, 09:02:22 pm
5 years?
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Well you have missed some of the best years of Audax up here. Quite a few were one off's, due to lack of support from Audax members . Why would racing clubs ( before sportives took off ) and DA's run an Audax if they never broke even. Our CTC DA ran 7 different audax's ,( a 12hr/ 100m in 8hr , 50m in 4hr standard ride could double as a 200/100km Audax ) last one was almost 30 years ago. Enjoyed seeing the country from the SW all the way up to the north coast, now its almost all based in the east.
I'm certainly aware that I missed the Duncan Peet and Queensferry events that people still talk about.
Why would anyone run an event if it didn't at least break even?
This is where the problems lie, it's not simply a case as some people are saying of make it TLC and people will come.
As with the National 400 that Steve ran, there were other factors, Steve, National, advertising? etc.
Could go full TLC on all Scottish events and find there's no riders because they're all scheduled to run controls, there's not that many of us in tolerable travel distance of events really.
Got to get the balance right for who's in the area, I know I've mentioned it before but it's how my Dad ended up taking on the Motorsport Authorities when they made the mistake of deciding that Historic rallying should only be about ridiculously expensive cars doing regularities... He won, because other organizers even in darkest Englandshire recognized that if the format of the event isn't adapted to suit the available entries, the sport dies.
Most of the entries I have for my North Fife starting 200s are from Fife and Tayside, a few from Edinburgh and Borders, a couple from out West and the furthest north is I think Aberdeen.
Shree quid and a car park start and postal finish (I'm hoping I can improve on that with either a motorhome or hall finish if restrictions allow)
Post by: salar55 on 29 March, 2021, 09:17:27 pm
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 29 March, 2021, 09:40:59 pm
Post by: John Stonebridge on 29 March, 2021, 10:07:21 pm
Youd be surprised however at the number of gripes from folk scouring the calendar and expressing disappointment that an event wasn't running each and every year. Ive still got all the details of every event Ive organised and would happily hand these over if somebody wanted to take them on.
Generally, Id far rather put on a new event and risk it being a bit of a turkey than just running the same ones year in year out. The only exception I can think of readily is The Port Navigation. If I could ressurect a resting event it would be the Tayside Transgression.
Post by: Ivo on 30 March, 2021, 12:01:26 am
I quite like thinking up new events - Berwick & Beattock, Canny Mans, Mille Alba ( :o), West Highland, Mull it Over & The Mull of Kintyre were all originals that ran on aone off basis.
Youd be surprised however at the number of gripes from folk scouring the calendar and expressing disappointment that an event wasn't running each and every year. Ive still got all the details of every event Ive organised and would happily hand these over if somebody wanted to take them on.
Generally, Id far rather put on a new event and risk it being a bit of a turkey than just running the same ones year in year out. The only exception I can think of readily is The Port Navigation. If I could ressurect a resting event it would be the Tayside Transgression.
Indeed, when I was still running the Maastricht series I tried to introduce a fully new route each year, together with running 3 known routes. So towards the end of my organisers years I had a nice stack of routes which I could alternate. Although one seemed to be the most popular, a 300 passing through Bastogne and Huy.
Post by: LateStarter on 30 March, 2021, 02:18:26 am
On the continent most longer audaxes (400 and 600k) were already quite x-rated, AUK was an exception regarding 600k events with full services.
With the advent of fast selftests, more will be possible.
Yes, indeed, jetting to the other end of the world for a 1200 and returning within a week, that will be something that won't return that easily, so audaxing will be more self sufficient per continent.
Due to the smaller population of randonneurs in Oz 99% of all calendar rides are now entirely unsupported including 400, 600, 1000 & 1200km allowing even the ride organiser to do the ride after distributing the brevets and a briefing. Most of the registration / admin / payment / results processing is electronic. Longer distances are achieved by multiple non-repeating loops from a central hub (often rural town) so riders return to their own booked accommodation (hotel/motel/tent) 1, 2, 3 or 4 times. Earlier parts of routes are common with longer distance riders continuing on as various shorter distance riders peel off along the way. Food / water is purchased on the way mostly at free controls. So other than actual, mostly local / regional, lockdowns covid has had minimal impact. As a full value rider I would hate having to delay some vollie waiting for just me at some control location when I probably wanted to minimise my stopped time anyway. Faster riders of course have the spare time to enjoy the social aspects of a ride.
Post by: John Stonebridge on 30 March, 2021, 11:41:07 am
On the continent most longer audaxes (400 and 600k) were already quite x-rated, AUK was an exception regarding 600k events with full services.
With the advent of fast selftests, more will be possible.
Yes, indeed, jetting to the other end of the world for a 1200 and returning within a week, that will be something that won't return that easily, so audaxing will be more self sufficient per continent.
Longer distances are achieved by multiple non-repeating loops from a central hub (often rural town) so riders return to their own booked accommodation (hotel/motel/tent)
Yes, if my UK 1000km event gets onto the calendar for 2022 it will operate on this ^ basis. Commercial / info controls only with loops of 450km, 280km & 270km centred on Edinburgh.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 30 March, 2021, 12:06:01 pm
Ditto preferring supported/ partially supported long brevets over X-rated.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 30 March, 2021, 01:12:56 pm
That said, anything to avoid the sadness of a cold Ginsters at a Shell station at 2 AM
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 30 March, 2021, 02:36:20 pm
I did finish the first one despite issues, because when i was ready to quit it was easier to push on than sort out a train home, while on the mille pennines I did quit when I was struggling on day 3, 750km into the event and still in time. As it was relatively easy to return to the overnight base.
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 30 March, 2021, 03:55:08 pm
And a good proportion of my best cycling memories are from those long events - perhaps at sunrise on the second day of a 600 - in somewhere I've never been before - seeing the world anew...
Post by: Nick H. on 30 March, 2021, 07:11:15 pm
Plus, we may well have a large UK population who permanently refuse the vaccine, so we'll be brewing our own new variants right here.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 30 March, 2021, 08:06:27 pm
I'm not a scientist, and this may be silly journalist scaremongering, but I read that the virus will continue to mutate for many years because it's likely that many countries will never manage to vaccinate the majority of their citizens. And inevitably some of the new variants won't be warded off by the currently available vaccines, even though they will be tweaked. So unless we have a competent test, track and trace regime for all travellers, we'll all be at risk. (And we'll all need new vaccines every year.)
Plus, we may well have a large UK population who permanently refuse the vaccine, so we'll be brewing our own new variants right here.
It is a likely scenario, although it will probably impact international travel more than the domestic Audax scene. Of course LEL and PBP might have to be scaled down... not necessarily a tragedy
Post by: Pingu on 30 March, 2021, 08:26:11 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 30 March, 2021, 08:30:13 pm
Post by: John Stonebridge on 30 March, 2021, 08:42:01 pm
As did Mille Cymru Mk 1. But, there was a huge DNF rate after day 1, as per LWAB suggests.
Not on Mille Alba there wasnt despite very poor weather but i did deliberately make sure the field included every Scottish rider who wanted to take part
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 30 March, 2021, 08:45:01 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 31 March, 2021, 06:37:25 am
On MC1, it became clear that if you got through day 2, there was no way you were going to throw it away by abandoning on the last day. Clover leaf or not.* But the abandonees on the previous days certainly didn't have far to travel once they had made their decision. The weather was great btw. It was the relentless hills that got people.
I'm pretty sure I have one of the most impressive palmares in audax if DNFs are your metric. Several SRs. So on this issue you should all defer to my considerable expertise. I'm with LWAB on this, in general though. If it was a dull route, or if I'd spied a pub with an attractive beer garden, I wouldn't be getting out of bed on the second day no questions asked.
*strictly speaking it wasn't a clover leaf, as start point wasn't the same place as 2 night base.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 31 March, 2021, 07:08:23 am
Post by: Hot Flatus on 31 March, 2021, 07:19:59 am
For me it was ideal. Great route, lots of hills to give me something to think about, and remote enough to have few pubs to tempt me. I did have a room in a pub booked for both the nights in Llanwtyd though ;D
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 31 March, 2021, 07:38:38 am
Needless to say, we never saw him at the night control, I doubt he ever made it to the first control at all!
At these events, as well as those who DNF out of exhaustion or because they run of time or will, there are always a bunch of weirdos who have no idea what they sign up for and maybe think it's a charity ride with a broom wagon at the back
Post by: John Stonebridge on 31 March, 2021, 09:07:52 am
I will never forget this guy in a blue shirt who showed up at the start of MC3, unsure of what it was about, where he was supposed to go or what to do. Almost as if he got carried away after his first BP and decided to sign up for something a bit more challenging.
Needless to say, we never saw him at the night control, I doubt he ever made it to the first control at all!
At these events, as well as those who DNF out of exhaustion or because they run of time or will, there are always a bunch of weirdos who have no idea what they sign up for and maybe think it's a charity ride with a broom wagon at the back
Reminds me of the two gents who pitched up last at the Tongue control on the National 400 (2015?) dressed in civvies and with heavy looking bikes. They started asking us where we lived (clearly trying to see if a bed was available for the night) and were taken aback to learn that we didn't live locally, had driven 5 hours from Edinburgh to run the control and were camping nearby after the control closed.
They had no option but to bash on a bit but I'll never forget one looking at the other and saying "I think we have bitten rather off more than we can chew". Both were really pleasant (more than they had any right to be in the circumstances) but Ive rarely seen a pair looking less likely to finish.
Im sure Scotrail came to their aid. Dont tell salar55 but Im sure they will have taken the longer less hilly way.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 March, 2021, 09:27:50 am
I will never forget this guy in a blue shirt who showed up at the start of MC3, unsure of what it was about, where he was supposed to go or what to do. Almost as if he got carried away after his first BP and decided to sign up for something a bit more challenging.Reminds me of a rider on Andy Corless' 1000 from Blackpool a couple of years ago.
Needless to say, we never saw him at the night control, I doubt he ever made it to the first control at all!
At these events, as well as those who DNF out of exhaustion or because they run of time or will, there are always a bunch of weirdos who have no idea what they sign up for and maybe think it's a charity ride with a broom wagon at the back
Aparently had no baggage at all until the first bike shop where he obtained a bar bag, he did make it back on time but hadn't collected any receipts.
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Post by: salar55 on 31 March, 2021, 09:57:34 am
Post by: Ian H on 31 March, 2021, 10:03:40 am
Post by: salar55 on 31 March, 2021, 10:51:24 am
The clover leaf format of the Mille Alba worked very well. Each loop took you into different classic Scottish audax terrain :thumbsup:
One word missing in title. EST, no West Coast, SW or the North of Scotland 👿
Post by: Redlight on 31 March, 2021, 10:51:59 am
Reminds me of the two gents who pitched up last at the Tongue control on the National 400 (2015?) dressed in civvies and with heavy looking bikes.
Both were really pleasant (more than they had any right to be in the circumstances) but Ive rarely seen a pair looking less likely to finish.
Im sure Scotrail came to their aid.
I think I know the two you mean and, yes, they did finish. I've seen them on a few other events and - a bit like the late Jack Eason - they always "get around".
Post by: salar55 on 31 March, 2021, 10:55:57 am
Post by: John Stonebridge on 31 March, 2021, 11:04:31 am
I've completed two 1000km brevets in Europe, only one had accommodation, but I could just as easily have booked my own BnB. I carried all my stuff anyway, don't see why cloverleaf events are the only way it could work.
In my patch there are very few commercial premises that are open overnight. In the whole of Scotland were talking about (i) a handful of motorway Services pretty much all of which are on the M74 heading towards Carlisle, and (ii) those non urban McDonalds that open 24 hrs - Forfar Perth & Dunbar spring to mind, if there are others they will be few and far between, and of course its anybodys guess when (or if) these will reopen as 24hr facilities in future.
A clover leaf isn't the only way it can work, but its an option that becomes more attractive in planning for post pandemic events. The other options would be to run a traditional village hall control (which Im in no hurry to do anytime soon chiefly as my other half is in the "clinically extremely vulnerable" group) or routing an event to a location that has enough suitable accommodation. We used Oban this way on the West Highland 1000 in 2018 but finding locations that sit in that big-enough-but-not-too-big sweet spot is quite tricky. The West Highland 1000 featured a bag drop in Oban, another feature that Id not offer in 2022 so that also tips the balance in favour of a clover leaf type route.
Im not convinced that a clover leaf route actually causes more DNFs than an out and back - somebody thinking of a DNF will always find a railway station, a hotel with a nice warm fire or suchlike.
Conversely a night in a pre booked bed back at base with access to a change of clothes etc can work wonders for morale.
Post by: John Stonebridge on 31 March, 2021, 11:06:15 am
Reminds me of the two gents who pitched up last at the Tongue control on the National 400 (2015?) dressed in civvies and with heavy looking bikes.
Both were really pleasant (more than they had any right to be in the circumstances) but Ive rarely seen a pair looking less likely to finish.
Im sure Scotrail came to their aid.
I think I know the two you mean and, yes, they did finish. I've seen them on a few other events and - a bit like the late Jack Eason - they always "get around".
I stand corrected. :thumbsup:
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 31 March, 2021, 01:37:46 pm
As did Mille Cymru Mk 1. But, there was a huge DNF rate after day 1, as per LWAB suggests.More likely a consequence of the difficulty, than the clover leaf format
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 March, 2021, 01:41:31 pm
As did Mille Cymru Mk 1. But, there was a huge DNF rate after day 1, as per LWAB suggests.More likely a consequence of the difficulty, than the clover leaf format
I've taken part in lots of multi-loop long brevets and lots of single loop or out-and-back long brevets. I know what I see when conditions get tough.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 31 March, 2021, 01:48:39 pm
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 March, 2021, 01:50:53 pm
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Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 March, 2021, 01:55:44 pm
Post by: Jaded on 31 March, 2021, 01:59:25 pm
Like it is no longer like it was pre-GPS. Or pre internet.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 March, 2021, 02:01:48 pm
Is 'my part of the world' the UK, England, Midlands, SE England, Australia or BRMs and LRMs on multiple continents? All of those apply at different times.Well it's laready been mentioned that Australia is now almost entirely X-Rated seems to have happened after you left, and from what I've gathered now only really exists in the South of England and other parts of England and Wales that the required mass of riders needed to work on that level can easily travel to.
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Post by: Jethro on 31 March, 2021, 02:14:51 pm
Post by: Redlight on 31 March, 2021, 02:29:30 pm
I have always had a desire to do this ride across Wales and will now be looking to ride it as a permanent at some point and will look at other suitable accommodation along the way. This for me (permanents) is my way forward.
The Premier Inn in Bangor is just off the route, so you could avoid both the slog up to Kings on the way out and the annoying 7 mile diversion to revisit it on the way back.
Post by: Pingu on 31 March, 2021, 02:30:19 pm
The clover leaf format of the Mille Alba worked very well. Each loop took you into different classic Scottish audax terrain :thumbsup:
One word missing in title. EST, no West Coast, SW or the North of Scotland 👿
I didn't say it was all of Scotland's classic audax terrain. That would be a bit difficult to do in a cloverleaf 1000km event.
Maybe some experienced, genuine Scottish audaxer based in the west could organise something?
Post by: Tommyp27 on 31 March, 2021, 03:06:41 pm
I've come to it having had some experience of racing track and mountain bikes, spending 7 years as a Cycle Courier (in the Distant Past) and basically roughly knowing what I'm getting myself into.
I guess some of the more social elements I imagined of Audax won't be around for a good few years (i.e large controls). But I can't be one of the only people starting to take an interest and I'll be trying to persuade a few people I know to get involved as well.
I'm something of a retrogrouch in someway (he says via his smartphone), although I might invest in a GPS for route marking if I have to (i.e. to prove I did the route)?
But I Audax will survive as will many of the elements that trace back to its origins.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 31 March, 2021, 03:32:59 pm
I have always had a desire to do this ride across Wales and will now be looking to ride it as a permanent at some point and will look at other suitable accommodation along the way. This for me (permanents) is my way forward.
The Premier Inn in Bangor is just off the route, so you could avoid both the slog up to Kings on the way out and the annoying 7 mile diversion to revisit it on the way back.
Yes, although if you want a decent night sleep, you need to leave Chepstow a bit later than 6 AM... 9 or 10 AM might work out OK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 March, 2021, 03:34:59 pm
I think a big part of why audaxing in Oz has stagnated (despite an overall increase in cycling) is because of their trend towards unsupported brevets. I found that entries were higher on my brevets when they were supported because tentative folk were comforted by the attention and tended to return with their friends. Without support, only the hardcore types turned out. With marginal entry volumes, withdrawing support was a bit of a vicious circle.
Post by: John Stonebridge on 31 March, 2021, 03:58:14 pm
The clover leaf format of the Mille Alba worked very well. Each loop took you into different classic Scottish audax terrain :thumbsup:
One word missing in title. EST, no West Coast, SW or the North of Scotland 👿
I didn't say it was all of Scotland's classic audax terrain. That would be a bit difficult to do in a cloverleaf 1000km event.
Maybe some experienced, genuine Scottish audaxer based in the west could organise something?
Id offer to do it but Ive been decreed a faker by virtue of never having ridden Ower the Edge.
Post by: salar55 on 31 March, 2021, 04:08:47 pm
Post by: jsabine on 31 March, 2021, 05:44:46 pm
The clover leaf format of the Mille Alba worked very well. Each loop took you into different classic Scottish audax terrain :thumbsup:
One word missing in title. EST, no West Coast, SW or the North of Scotland 👿
I didn't say it was all of Scotland's classic audax terrain. That would be a bit difficult to do in a cloverleaf 1000km event.
Maybe some experienced, genuine Scottish audaxer based in the west could organise something?
Id offer to do it but Ive been decreed a faker by virtue of never having ridden Ower the Edge.
You're not based in the West anyway.
Post by: Ajax Bay on 31 March, 2021, 05:55:37 pm
Wales end-to-end (corner-to-corner) and back is a cracking ride.I have always had a desire to do this ride across Wales and will now be looking to ride it as a permanent at some point and will look at other suitable accommodation along the way. This for me (permanents) is my way forward.The Premier Inn in Bangor is just off the route, so you could avoid both the slog up to Kings on the way out and the annoying 7 mile diversion to revisit it on the way back.
There are plenty of overnight options on a calendar BCM starting at 6am (and indeed @Blacksheep's permanent), most obviously finding a bed between Beddgelert and Penrhyndreudraeth, or at Dolgellau. For all of those you can check in when you pass in the afternoon at a civilised hour and slip in late at night coming south for all the hours of wonderful sleep that your speed allows. Bangor is far too short to stop: it leaves you with 300k to do.
Post by: mattc on 31 March, 2021, 06:34:11 pm
Audax has changed and will continue to change. So the answer to the question is "No". Because Audax will not be as we 'knew' it.Yeah, I'll go along with that.
Like it is no longer like it was pre-GPS. Or pre internet.
(I was around for the GPS transition, and I have my Dad to refer to for 1980s tales!)
Re: Clover Leaf routes
I suspect these normally come about due to logistics reasons. Having ridden a few of them, and seen behind the scenes at LEL, it's pretty clear which is simpler!
And I'd query whether DNF rates are everything? I quite like the security blanket thing; and although I generally finish the long rides (somehow), I don't regard quitting as the end of the world. It's not the Olympics and - to quote Mr Hall - we're not f***ing curing cancer.
Post by: Whitedown Man on 31 March, 2021, 08:27:13 pm
Wales end-to-end (corner-to-corner) and back is a cracking ride.I have always had a desire to do this ride across Wales and will now be looking to ride it as a permanent at some point and will look at other suitable accommodation along the way. This for me (permanents) is my way forward.The Premier Inn in Bangor is just off the route, so you could avoid both the slog up to Kings on the way out and the annoying 7 mile diversion to revisit it on the way back.
There are plenty of overnight options on a calendar BCM starting at 6am (and indeed @Blacksheep's permanent), most obviously finding a bed between Beddgelert and Penrhyndreudraeth, or at Dolgellau. For all of those you can check in when you pass in the afternoon at a civilised hour and slip in late at night coming south for all the hours of wonderful sleep that your speed allows. Bangor is far too short to stop: it leaves you with 300k to do.
During my one and only BCM I slept under a parked caravan on a garage forecourt somewhere a few miles south of Pen y Pass ... but you try and tell the young people today that and they won’t believe ya’
Post by: Jaded on 01 April, 2021, 08:18:41 am
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 01 April, 2021, 09:08:51 am
That’s nothing, on an X-rated DIY to Lands End and back I slept under a moving caravan on the A303.
That's nothing, during a Cambrian perm a friend of mine died... then he finished with 2 minutes to spare! ::-) ::-)
Post by: Redlight on 01 April, 2021, 09:23:09 am
That's nothing, during a Cambrian perm a friend of mine died... then he finished with 2 minutes to spare! ::-) ::-)
That's nothing, a friend a mine arrived at the start of PBP and realised that he had left his bike at home so walked the route. He still finished in fewer than 80 hours.
Post by: Jaded on 01 April, 2021, 09:26:31 am
Post by: Ajax Bay on 01 April, 2021, 06:08:14 pm
During my one and only BCM I slept under a parked caravan on a garage forecourt somewhere a few miles south of Pen y Pass ... but you try and tell the young people today that and they won’t believe ya’Assuming garage forecourt after dark, young people today wouldn't believe anyone could cycle that slowly and complete a Wales End-to-end-to-end 600.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 01 April, 2021, 06:15:21 pm
That's nothing, during a Cambrian perm a friend of mine died... then he finished with 2 minutes to spare! ::-) ::-)
That's nothing, a friend a mine arrived at the start of PBP and realised that he had left his bike at home so walked the route. He still finished in fewer than 80 hours.
And slept 8 hours a night in a bed, after a 3 hour evening meal each day.
Post by: Ian H on 01 April, 2021, 06:40:09 pm
There was an eminent auk who got so tired & disorientated that he decided it was imperative to hide his barrow in a field. He came to his senses an hour or two along the road. It took awhile to find the trike again, he finished on time.That's nothing, during a Cambrian perm a friend of mine died... then he finished with 2 minutes to spare! ::-) ::-)
That's nothing, a friend a mine arrived at the start of PBP and realised that he had left his bike at home so walked the route. He still finished in fewer than 80 hours.
Post by: citoyen on 01 April, 2021, 06:43:57 pm
Post by: Tommyp27 on 01 April, 2021, 07:07:21 pm
I vaguely recall tales of an AUK who combined taking on PBP with pursuing a career in local politics. What ever became of him?
Didn't he take his family on a DIY 800km to Barnard Castle? I heard his eyesight went a bit funny at some point?
Post by: Ian H on 01 April, 2021, 07:10:57 pm
I vaguely recall tales of an AUK who combined taking on PBP with pursuing a career in local politics. What ever became of him?
You mean local French politics of course.
Post by: citoyen on 01 April, 2021, 07:13:42 pm
I vaguely recall tales of an AUK who combined taking on PBP with pursuing a career in local politics. What ever became of him?
You mean local French politics of course.
Of course! Even more impressive since it's not his native language.
Post by: Whitedown Man on 01 April, 2021, 07:16:30 pm
During my one and only BCM I slept under a parked caravan on a garage forecourt somewhere a few miles south of Pen y Pass ... but you try and tell the young people today that and they won’t believe ya’Assuming garage forecourt after dark, young people today wouldn't believe anyone could cycle that slowly and complete a Wales End-to-end-to-end 600.
I was as close to “full value” as it’s possible to be and still earn my 6 points, but earn them I did.
Post by: salar55 on 01 April, 2021, 07:43:23 pm
It seems to me that the Audax as Salar55 k ew is never really existed and as LWaB knew it only exists in his part of the world.
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Thats correct the fictitious audaxs were mini sportives with a regroup at the cafe control. Then it all started again, was good training,. No wonder all the ancient audaxers could give the wimps a doing👿.Now lets have a list of all the rule changes 🤔
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 April, 2021, 07:50:03 pm
When did distances actually start getting checked? So many classic routes turnout to be massively under distance when people go and make them DIYs
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Post by: salar55 on 01 April, 2021, 07:56:25 pm
During my one and only BCM I slept under a parked caravan on a garage forecourt somewhere a few miles south of Pen y Pass ... but you try and tell the young people today that and they won’t believe ya’Assuming garage forecourt after dark, young people today wouldn't believe anyone could cycle that slowly and complete a Wales End-to-end-to-end 600.
I was as close to “full value” as it’s possible to be and still earn my 6 points, but earn them I did.
Full value audaxers dont have the luxury of sitting in behind a fat arsed lycra windbreak to conserve energy. You could say that they earned the points the hard way.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 01 April, 2021, 07:56:41 pm
I vaguely recall tales of an AUK who combined taking on PBP with pursuing a career in local politics. What ever became of him?
;D ;D
Post by: Pingu on 01 April, 2021, 08:04:30 pm
When was free route introduced?
When did distances actually start getting checked? So many classic routes turnout to be massively under distance when people go and make them DIYs
:o
An enquiry needs to be held and the records corrected if the rides are found to under distance. We cannot tolerate fake audaxes.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 April, 2021, 08:21:20 pm
Indeed, I remember one poor audaxer having to ride half way to Dalwhinnie to get their distance up to spec following a Newtonmore grill based "200"When was free route introduced?
When did distances actually start getting checked? So many classic routes turnout to be massively under distance when people go and make them DIYs
:o
An enquiry needs to be held and the records corrected if the rides are found to under distance. We cannot tolerate fake audaxes.
And then there was the shock of discoving just how short Kingdom Come was while comisersting myself in Stonehaven greggs with 2 sausage rolls and a (square) sausage roll.
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Post by: eckagain on 01 April, 2021, 08:28:48 pm
When was free route introduced?
When did distances actually start getting checked? So many classic routes turnout to be massively under distance when people go and make them DIYs
:o
An enquiry needs to be held and the records corrected if the rides are found to under distance. We cannot tolerate fake audaxes.
According to recent research, a Daylight / Twilight based DIY from Kirriemuir - "Gie's a Light" - appears to be about 21k short of the claimed 600k. Those of you who have done it - and we know who you are - are hereby required to submit your brevet cards to the Audax Ecosse disciplinary committee for further scrutiny and retrospective forfeiture of points.
Post by: salar55 on 01 April, 2021, 09:07:55 pm
Post by: Lightning Phil on 01 April, 2021, 10:22:23 pm
I prefer quality over quantity. :thumbsup:
But have you ever ridden a 600, or have you always come up short, is the question now.
Post by: mmmmartin on 01 April, 2021, 10:47:07 pm
I don't regard quitting as the end of the world. It's not the Olympics and - to quote Mr Hall - we're not f***ing curing cancer.Never seen that quote before but it's bang on the money.
Post by: salar55 on 02 April, 2021, 09:56:50 am
I prefer quality over quantity. :thumbsup:
But have you ever ridden a 600, or have you always come up short, is the question now.
Now is that as a one off or splitting into 2 rides👿
Post by: slugbait on 02 April, 2021, 08:06:46 pm
And I think audax will recover from this. I'm a solo rider mostly, but I find it comforting that I'm not the only doing some insane 600/1000/etc ride. The fact that there is some record of what I'm doing, or that there is someone at the finish, pushes me further than I would do on my own.
Post by: Feanor on 02 April, 2021, 09:36:40 pm
I'm looking at rides I've not done.
Tayside Transgression 300;
Ower the Edge 400;
Mull o' Kintyre 600.
In terms of a Not Shit list, I'd say that works pretty well.
Obviously, I'd need to extend the historical routes which are under-distance.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 02 April, 2021, 10:14:35 pm
This discussion has me looking at what I want to ride in this season, the 10th consecutive year of SR for me.Reminds me didn't you need to find something ridiculous like 30k to make the distance on the daylight?
I'm looking at rides I've not done.
Tayside Transgression 300;
Ower the Edge 400;
Mull o' Kintyre 600.
In terms of a Not Shit list, I'd say that works pretty well.
Obviously, I'd need to extend the historical routes which are under-distance.
Or was that when I mapped the current routeaheet for the twilight?
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Post by: salar55 on 03 April, 2021, 09:46:13 am
This discussion has me looking at what I want to ride in this season, the 10th consecutive year of SR for me.Reminds me didn't you need to find something ridiculous like 30k to make the distance on the daylight?
I'm looking at rides I've not done.
Tayside Transgression 300;
Ower the Edge 400;
Mull o' Kintyre 600.
In terms of a Not Shit list, I'd say that works pretty well.
Obviously, I'd need to extend the historical routes which are under-distance.
Or was that when I mapped the current routeaheet for the twilight?
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No need for a sleep over on that one if you do it😂
Post by: Feanor on 03 April, 2021, 09:52:15 am
Post by: salar55 on 03 April, 2021, 09:54:31 am
Post by: Ian H on 03 April, 2021, 01:57:14 pm
Post by: sg37409 on 03 April, 2021, 10:26:37 pm
This discussion has me looking at what I want to ride in this season, the 10th consecutive year of SR for me.
I'm looking at rides I've not done.
Tayside Transgression 300;
Ower the Edge 400;
Mull o' Kintyre 600.
In terms of a Not Shit list, I'd say that works pretty well.
Obviously, I'd need to extend the historical routes which are under-distance.
Have any of your bikes even got mudguards ?
The Tayside is a ride I definitely would like to ride again.
Post by: Karla on 04 April, 2021, 12:14:48 am
When was free route introduced?
When did distances actually start getting checked? So many classic routes turnout to be massively under distance when people go and make them DIYs
:o
An enquiry needs to be held and the records corrected if the rides are found to under distance. We cannot tolerate fake audaxes.
Oh gawd this is about to get all CTT isn't it ??? :facepalm:
Post by: BrawleyBurst on 04 April, 2021, 07:11:31 am
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 04 April, 2021, 12:51:12 pm
One of the aspects of Audax I used to enjoy most was the contribution of the organiser. When you have someone like Mark Rigby in the chair you were confident that the route would be reliable and interesting, the controls would fit the bill and he would invariably be at the arrivee to welcome you home. I would see him in a freezing car park in Tewkesbury at 6.30 am in January to hand out brevet cards for Mr Pickwick’s January Sale and and have a quick chat then send us all on our way at 7.00 am in the darkness. When I crawled in to The Royal Hop Pole close to or one occasion after the cut off he would invariably be ensconced at table 48 with a few other finishers rotating in and out alongside him. I always enjoyed catching up with him, offering to buy him a drink (he gently refused every time) and feeling part of a little club. Will this ever return? Who knows, but it was good while it lasted.
Some of those cafes, typically quiet, used by AUK might close down after the pandemic... if they haven't already, they were probably barely viable before. Those that stay open, will be under pressure to pile customers up high to start turning a profit and I am not sure the stingy men in baggy lycra fit the bill. It might well be that a lot of places used as controls will rather try to attract customers prepared to spend a bit more than 3 quid.
The all hospitality business will become more focussed on profit, that's for sure
Post by: mattc on 04 April, 2021, 03:14:50 pm
Take your negativity down the allotment, or go start your own cycling body. Good luck!
Post by: John Stonebridge on 04 April, 2021, 03:39:34 pm
It was common knowledge that many events were underdistance and significantly so in some cases.
Its no great surprise that a number of long standing events and their most ardent supporters have melted away from the audax scene in the last decade or so.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 04 April, 2021, 03:43:24 pm
I suggest you leave AUK to people who think it may have a future (even if they are wrong).
Take your negativity down the allotment, or go start your own cycling body. Good luck!
It does have a future, but it will probably be closer to unsupported adventure type cycling... more TCR and less beans on toast... maybe more events for gravel bikes and fewer rides based on cafe'-type controls. More remote routes and fewer village halls...
Post by: Jethro on 04 April, 2021, 03:48:41 pm
Post by: FifeingEejit on 04 April, 2021, 03:50:06 pm
Ensuring distance integrity for audax events in Scotland was patchy prior to 2010 when distances started being subject to an independent peer review. Before that, it was the organiser acting alone who set the event distance.Interesting, and makes sense as the road network has barely changed and it couldn't have been entirely down to Google maps increasingly having remote walking routes to mess up route plans.
It was common knowledge that many events were underdistance and significantly so in some cases.
Its no great surprise that a number of long standing events and their most ardent supporters have melted away from the audax scene in the last decade or so.
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Post by: Geriatricdolan on 04 April, 2021, 04:15:04 pm
I would like to think that Audax will again return to some sort of normality in the future, but probably not for a couple of years at least and not until most of the World's population has been vaccinated. Until then I think it will be as quoted above. Sadly, I cant see LEL or PBP happening anytime soon!
That IF vaccines allow return to life "as normal". Assuming they cut the number of hospitalisations by 90%, you might still end up having large numbers of people in hospital in the absence of basic respiratory hygiene.
That shouldn't be a problem for most events, but as you say, events relying on large number of cyclists to be viable, with many sharing dormitories might be harder to organise.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 04 April, 2021, 04:28:25 pm
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Post by: Davef on 04 April, 2021, 04:32:46 pm
Post by: FifeingEejit on 04 April, 2021, 04:38:03 pm
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Post by: Geriatricdolan on 04 April, 2021, 04:40:28 pm
We have had events for years despite the fact they spread the flu and many people die of that. Once less people are dying of covid than the flu it would be unreasonable not to return to normal. That is not the case yet, but we are fairly rapidly moving that way.
Funny you say that, as I was thinking the same, but differently. I don't think we will ever be allowed to go to work with a flu and Paracetamol, like it was acceptable before... now that we know that spreading viruses actually kill people.
I honestly didn't know that almost 10,000 people die of flu every year, despite vaccines and all... if you asked me last year, I would have thought maybe a few hundred frail elderly, nowhere near 10K.
Now that we are all very aware of what respiratory viruses do, we are not going back to that way of living, it just won't be socially acceptable
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 04 April, 2021, 04:48:24 pm
There's a point of diminishing returns, there's always going to be a point at which some people are going to be thrown to the lions.Of course, but...
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Without a vaccine, for every 10,000 infections, roughly you have 500 people in hospital and 100 deaths, with the vaccine you have the same for 100,000 infections.
So, if instead of having 1 in 50 with the disease as we did in January, you have 1 in 5, you are still at emergency point and in need to lock down.
It's not unthinkable to have 1 in 5 infected in the absence of any restriction.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 04 April, 2021, 04:51:05 pm
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Post by: Geriatricdolan on 04 April, 2021, 04:55:15 pm
Yes, hence why the public vaccination programme isn't only Interested in high risk workers and those over 65, as it is with flu.
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yes, but the 90% applies across the board. Everything is factored in, immunity included... the maths are really quite simple and you can only keep a lid on the thing if you implement some form of restriction (masks? No large gatherings? Some basic social distancing on public transport?).
Basically, while now it's the plague, next winter it will be a flu on steroids... if you don't do anything, you still will get 50,000 deaths, which I would like to think it's not acceptable
Post by: Davef on 04 April, 2021, 05:40:39 pm
Where are you getting 90% from ?Yes, hence why the public vaccination programme isn't only Interested in high risk workers and those over 65, as it is with flu.
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yes, but the 90% applies across the board. Everything is factored in, immunity included... the maths are really quite simple and you can only keep a lid on the thing if you implement some form of restriction (masks? No large gatherings? Some basic social distancing on public transport?).
Basically, while now it's the plague, next winter it will be a flu on steroids... if you don't do anything, you still will get 50,000 deaths, which I would like to think it's not acceptable
From the trial data I believe some vaccinated people got covid but non sufficiently badly to require hospitalisation.
The vaccination rate is generally very high - high 90s.
Add to this that prevalence will be dramatically reduced due to the vastly reduced effective R.
Now obviously there is the possibility of new variants evolving but without that I would predict hospitalisation due to covid in the 3rd wave will be 1 or 2% of at the peak of 2nd.
There will be societal changes in the same way that in the Far East mask wearing has continued decades and as you say isolating when ill is likely to become normal behaviour.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 04 April, 2021, 05:50:57 pm
In mid-January I was receiving regular ward closure e-mails and at one point there was a general call for any available staff to be redeployed, that's how bad it was.
A few weeks later the wards were all but empty and there's rarely been a closure due to Covid getting into non-covid areas.
That's the impact of the vaccinaction programme when it was targeting those over 65 and frontline staff.
Its also why the Scottish release of restrictions has been significantly sped up while still appearing cautious.
And why Johnston can be bullish about no more lockdown and most restrictions being released by the end of June.
It's also why an EU politician was able to say rather sourly, that we may delight in our success at vaccination but at the cost of being stuck on our little island. (my phrasing)
There'll be a point where we can lib people suffering from covid in the infectious diseases unit rather than have them cripple the hospitals
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Post by: Geriatricdolan on 04 April, 2021, 05:51:12 pm
Where are you getting 90% from ?
From the trial data I believe some vaccinated people got covid but non sufficiently badly to require hospitalisation.
Recent UK data showed the efficacy of Pfizer + AZ vaccines in reducing hospitalisation and death was about 90%.
Of course, if it was 99% that would be another order of magnitude and basically put a natural lid to the disease, but at the moment it is not.
Another way to stop the disease altogether would be to have a very effective treatment at home, like a very good antiviral drug... that combined with the vaccine would stop it
Post by: salar55 on 04 April, 2021, 06:11:23 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 04 April, 2021, 06:24:46 pm
I'm not informed enough to understand the differences between covid and Spanish Flu, but I do understand the notion that if covid is allowed to spread in unvaccinated parts of the world, then eventually it may mutate into a form that evades current vaccines. In fact, it already has to some extent. So, it seems like a yearly vaccination, with a seasonal picking off the frail is likely.
Post by: Davef on 04 April, 2021, 06:29:39 pm
Do you have a link to this ? The most recent I have seen from AZ is from US study
Recent UK data showed the efficacy of Pfizer + AZ vaccines in reducing hospitalisation and death was about 90%.
Quote
AstraZeneca has updated the efficacy result of its coronavirus vaccine trial in the US, after health officials insisted they wanted to include the latest information.
The Anglo-Swedish firm has now adjusted the efficacy rate of its vaccine from 79% to 76%.
Further data from the US trial showed efficacy among the over 65s rose from 80% to 85%.
AstraZeneca said it now looked forward to getting US regulatory approval.
The company said the trial results confirm the vaccine "is highly effective in adults" and it remains 100% effective at preventing severe cases of the disease.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 04 April, 2021, 07:01:31 pm
Do you have a link to this ? The most recent I have seen from AZ is from US study
Recent UK data showed the efficacy of Pfizer + AZ vaccines in reducing hospitalisation and death was about 90%.QuoteAstraZeneca has updated the efficacy result of its coronavirus vaccine trial in the US, after health officials insisted they wanted to include the latest information.
The Anglo-Swedish firm has now adjusted the efficacy rate of its vaccine from 79% to 76%.
Further data from the US trial showed efficacy among the over 65s rose from 80% to 85%.
AstraZeneca said it now looked forward to getting US regulatory approval.
The company said the trial results confirm the vaccine "is highly effective in adults" and it remains 100% effective at preventing severe cases of the disease.
They were numbers presented by Whitty a couple of weeks ago at one of the press conferences... wouldn't know where to source them.
But even if it was 100% effective, which it won't be... if the uptake is 90%, then you still have 10% of the population with no immunity, so again, you need some form of measures to protect them.
To go back to the point, it's about whether you see organisers prepared to stuff 150 riders in a dormitory with 40 beds... I see it as unlikely
Post by: cygnet on 04 April, 2021, 07:03:42 pm
^ probably this.
I'm not informed enough to understand the differences between covid and Spanish Flu, but I do understand the notion that if covid is allowed to spread in unvaccinated parts of the world, then eventually it may mutate into a form that evades current vaccines. In fact, it already has to some extent. So, it seems like a yearly vaccination, with a seasonal picking off the frail is likely.
Spanish Flu is referenced quite regularly, I find little mention of the late 1950s flu pandemic (apart from a thread (by LWaB?) that I can't find right now). The lack of publicity of this event makes it hard to try and understand what happened then.
Post by: cygnet on 04 April, 2021, 07:10:20 pm
Do you have a link to this ? The most recent I have seen from AZ is from US study
Recent UK data showed the efficacy of Pfizer + AZ vaccines in reducing hospitalisation and death was about 90%.QuoteAstraZeneca has updated the efficacy result of its coronavirus vaccine trial in the US, after health officials insisted they wanted to include the latest information.
The Anglo-Swedish firm has now adjusted the efficacy rate of its vaccine from 79% to 76%.
Further data from the US trial showed efficacy among the over 65s rose from 80% to 85%.
AstraZeneca said it now looked forward to getting US regulatory approval.
The company said the trial results confirm the vaccine "is highly effective in adults" and it remains 100% effective at preventing severe cases of the disease.
They were numbers presented by Whitty a couple of weeks ago at one of the press conferences... wouldn't know where to source them.
But even if it was 100% effective, which it won't be... if the uptake is 90%, then you still have 10% of the population with no immunity, so again, you need some form of measures to protect them.
To go back to the point, it's about whether you see organisers prepared to stuff 150 riders in a dormitory with 40 beds... I see it as unlikely
My bold.
Do you?
You assume 100% saturation of the virus. How realistic is that?
Do you define immunity as
1) kills the virus or
2) presents no issues to the infected person?
Post by: Hot Flatus on 04 April, 2021, 07:13:23 pm
^ probably this.
I'm not informed enough to understand the differences between covid and Spanish Flu, but I do understand the notion that if covid is allowed to spread in unvaccinated parts of the world, then eventually it may mutate into a form that evades current vaccines. In fact, it already has to some extent. So, it seems like a yearly vaccination, with a seasonal picking off the frail is likely.
Spanish Flu is referenced quite regularly, I find little mention of the late 1950s flu pandemic (apart from a thread (by LWaB?) that I can't find right now). The lack of publicity of this event makes it hard to try and understand what happened then.
I didn't know about it until covid encouraged me to research other pandemics. Est. 30,000 UK deaths, so way below current Covid, 70-116k deaths in US. But, 1-4 million worldwide (estimated) so just as most British people are blissfully unaware of the Bengal famine which resulted in about 3 million deaths (half a Holocaust) let alone the part played by Britain in creating the conditions for it to occur, or the 10k Kenyans who died trying to rid their country of the Britishin the 1950s, I'd suggest that the lack of awareness of the worldwide death toll of the 50's flu epidemic comes from the same place. It happened largely in countries populated by people whose lives are not as valuable as ours.
Post by: salar55 on 04 April, 2021, 07:16:28 pm
Ensuring distance integrity for audax events in Scotland was patchy prior to 2010 when distances started being subject to an independent peer review. Before that, it was the organiser acting alone who set the event distance.
It was common knowledge that many events were underdistance and significantly so in some cases.
Its no great surprise that a number of long standing events and their most ardent supporters have melted away from the audax scene in the last decade or so.
I wonder what age these ex audaxers were in the eighties, many were racing cyclists at a crossroads and decided Audax would keep them fit without killing themselves. Another issue is that the records are not complete. I was told always add to the distance as you will always be pestered by someone who's cateye is reading short of distance and feels that they have been short changed. 😄
Post by: salar55 on 04 April, 2021, 07:22:45 pm
^ probably this.
I'm not informed enough to understand the differences between covid and Spanish Flu, but I do understand the notion that if covid is allowed to spread in unvaccinated parts of the world, then eventually it may mutate into a form that evades current vaccines. In fact, it already has to some extent. So, it seems like a yearly vaccination, with a seasonal picking off the frail is likely.
Spanish Flu is referenced quite regularly, I find little mention of the late 1950s flu pandemic (apart from a thread (by LWaB?) that I can't find right now). The lack of publicity of this event makes it hard to try and understand what happened then.
I didn't know about it until covid encouraged me to research other pandemics. Est. 30,000 UK deaths, so way below current Covid, 70-116k deaths in US. But, 1-4 million worldwide (estimated) so just as most British people are blissfully unaware of the Bengal famine which resulted in about 3 million deaths (half a Holocaust) let alone the part played by Britain in creating the conditions for it to occur, or the 10k Kenyans who died trying to rid their country of the Britishin the 1950s, I'd suggest that the lack of awareness of the worldwide death toll of the 50's flu epidemic comes from the same place. It happened largely in countries populated by people whose lives are not as valuable as ours.
UK population was about 40 million in 1920.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 04 April, 2021, 07:26:19 pm
That is the epidemic I am referring to in the post you quote.
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 04 April, 2021, 07:41:19 pm
Its a point well made. I came into Audax late 80s, and my peak (small foothill really) was mid 90s, and my recollection is that, yes, there was a preponderance of older men on 'fast touring' type machines (and very few female riders).
I wonder what age these ex audaxers were in the eighties, many were racing cyclists at a crossroads and decided Audax would keep them fit without killing themselves.
This is almost certainly where the 'saddlebag & mudguard' image of Audaxers comes from (if it's still a thing).
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 04 April, 2021, 07:45:28 pm
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=117680 is the thread about cycling and previous epidemics.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 04 April, 2021, 07:47:01 pm
Do you define immunity as
1) kills the virus or
2) presents no issues to the infected person?
Neither... immunity is if you have been exposed to the virus/vaccine relatively recently and have antibodies... that will lower risk to some extent, but it won't be neither 1) nor 2)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 04 April, 2021, 07:57:40 pm
Its a point well made. I came into Audax late 80s, and my peak (small foothill really) was mid 90s, and my recollection is that, yes, there was a preponderance of older men on 'fast touring' type machines (and very few female riders).
I wonder what age these ex audaxers were in the eighties, many were racing cyclists at a crossroads and decided Audax would keep them fit without killing themselves.
This is almost certainly where the 'saddlebag & mudguard' image of Audaxers comes from (if it's still a thing).
I did my first audax in 2006. I was on a carbon racing bike. Told it wasn't "suitable for audax" by more than one other rider. Don't recall seeing any other CF race machines. Did the Mille Cymru on it 3.5 years later. Was one of the roughly 50% of entrants who actually finished it (with comparative ease I might add) :smug:
I think steel tourers are now the minority by a long way, and heavy canvas Carradice is giving way to nylon bikepacking kit. Attitudes are changing and the narrow exclusionary mindset is almost dead. Its bloody great seeing more women, and doubly great seeing women who kick everyone else's arse. Long may it continue to evolve.
Nothing stays the same forever, audax will and must change appropriately, but there are many elements that I hope remain, especially the culture of volunteerism.
Post by: cygnet on 04 April, 2021, 08:47:09 pm
Do you define immunity as
1) kills the virus or
2) presents no issues to the infected person?
Neither... immunity is if you have been exposed to the virus/vaccine relatively recently and have antibodies... that will lower risk to some extent, but it won't be neither 1) nor 2)
Either
So it's not enough to be virus free, you would require demonstration of antibodies?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 04 April, 2021, 08:49:02 pm
Antibodies are a measureable value of the immune system.
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Post by: cygnet on 04 April, 2021, 08:55:31 pm
PBP only dropped the mandatory mudguard requirement in 1995 and national organisations generally took a few years to follow suit.
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=117680 is the thread about cycling and previous epidemics.
Thanks LWaB
There's so little reference to this compared to "Spanish Flu" It's difficult to know where to start asking about it.
Post by: salar55 on 04 April, 2021, 09:10:30 pm
Its a point well made. I came into Audax late 80s, and my peak (small foothill really) was mid 90s, and my recollection is that, yes, there was a preponderance of older men on 'fast touring' type machines (and very few female riders).
I wonder what age these ex audaxers were in the eighties, many were racing cyclists at a crossroads and decided Audax would keep them fit without killing themselves.
This is almost certainly where the 'saddlebag & mudguard' image of Audaxers comes from (if it's still a thing).
I did my first audax in 2006. I was on a carbon racing bike. Told it wasn't "suitable for audax" by more than one other rider. Don't recall seeing any other CF race machines. Did the Mille Cymru on it 3.5 years later. Was one of the roughly 50% of entrants who actually finished it (with comparative ease I might add) :smug:
I think steel tourers are now the minority by a long way, and heavy canvas Carradice is giving way to nylon bikepacking kit. Attitudes are changing and the narrow exclusionary mindset is almost dead. Its bloody great seeing more women, and doubly great seeing women who kick everyone else's arse. Long may it continue to evolve.
Nothing stays the same forever, audax will and must change appropriately, but there are many elements that I hope remain, especially the culture of volunteerism.
CF bikes, you always had comments. Your bike is lighter than the saddlebag i have. Steel is real, i just said as you get older the bike becomes lighter and faster. 😂
Post by: Fidgetbuzz on 04 April, 2021, 09:36:48 pm
I would like to think that Audax will again return to some sort of normality in the future, but probably not for a couple of years at least and not until most of the World's population has been vaccinated. Until then I think it will be as quoted above. Sadly, I cant see LEL or PBP happening anytime soon!
But in 16 months time, the world may well be recovering from the current fearful state that so many are in. We currently are aiming to run LEL. Depending on how the world develops especially in relation to international travel over the next 8 months .. we may end up with fewer international riders than we had in 2017.. but at the moment we remain optimistic that LEL will be there in 2022. Maybe not as an exact replica of 2017 .. but certainly a well planned and well thought out event, and still a challenging ride .. with immense satisfaction when you complete.
Post by: grams on 04 April, 2021, 10:34:04 pm
As for cafés being too thin on the ground to act as controls... no. Anyone who was out and about last summer will know that anywhere open was heaving. If anything the problem will be that they're too busy.
There will be further waves of covid, but they'll be smaller and met with a collective shrug.
Post by: Paul H on 05 April, 2021, 12:22:37 am
My experience is that it’s no more diverse, it just appeals to a different segment. The predominant group used to be like the hard riders section of the CTC, that’s hardly surprising, the links were so close I thought it was part of the same organisation. On the rides that appeal to me, 200’s and 300’s, there always used to be a sizeable proportion of more casual audaxers, they’ve gone. It’s become too serious for them, the bikes, the look but mostly the attitude and talk. If after struggling round you feel like you’ve had your arse kicked you’re not going to ride another. Turn up for your first 200 in baggy shorts and a football shirt riding a cheap hybrid and you'll feel less like you belong there than I did 25 years ago. Of course, it's good that there's more women cycling, but the only ones attracted to Audax are those who can kick arse. The CTC group I ride with has an improving gender balance, around 60/40, but not one of those women (And not many of the men) are riding Audax. It used to be the other way round 80/20 at best, yet everyone in that group would have ridden some Audax.Its a point well made. I came into Audax late 80s, and my peak (small foothill really) was mid 90s, and my recollection is that, yes, there was a preponderance of older men on 'fast touring' type machines (and very few female riders).
I wonder what age these ex audaxers were in the eighties, many were racing cyclists at a crossroads and decided Audax would keep them fit without killing themselves.
This is almost certainly where the 'saddlebag & mudguard' image of Audaxers comes from (if it's still a thing).
I did my first audax in 2006. I was on a carbon racing bike. Told it wasn't "suitable for audax" by more than one other rider. Don't recall seeing any other CF race machines. Did the Mille Cymru on it 3.5 years later. Was one of the roughly 50% of entrants who actually finished it (with comparative ease I might add) :smug:
I think steel tourers are now the minority by a long way, and heavy canvas Carradice is giving way to nylon bikepacking kit. Attitudes are changing and the narrow exclusionary mindset is almost dead. Its bloody great seeing more women, and doubly great seeing women who kick everyone else's arse. Long may it continue to evolve.
Nothing stays the same forever, audax will and must change appropriately, but there are many elements that I hope remain, especially the culture of volunteerism.
I’m not complaining, there’s still plenty of rides I’d like to do, I just need to take more care picking them. I don’t mind riding alone more of the time. I can shrug off the more frequent comments that the type of bike that I’ve always ridden isn’t suitable, that’s how it is.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 05 April, 2021, 06:35:53 am
It strikes me that people on a hybrid and baggies are more likely to be welcomed now. I've seen a more diverse entry over the past few years with routes of entry from places other than CTC. This is in part due to internet spreading the word but also a growing interest in endurance (ultra) events coupled with bikepacking, and on/off road hybrid events (see TINAT as a great example). Audax is now touted in the cycling press as a 'must try' for cyclists, whereas it used to be a secret. In fact I'd never heard of audax until 2005, via this forum's predecessor, despite me reading the cycling press all my life.
Post by: Davef on 05 April, 2021, 07:44:35 am
The purpose of social distancing and mask wearing etc is to reduce R to less than 1 so the virus is in decline rather than growing.
Do you define immunity as
1) kills the virus or
2) presents no issues to the infected person?
Neither... immunity is if you have been exposed to the virus/vaccine relatively recently and have antibodies... that will lower risk to some extent, but it won't be neither 1) nor 2)
If 90% of the population is vaccinated the remaining unvaccinated have some immunity via previous infection then the R rate of say 4 with no intervention will be reduced to an effective rate less than 1.
With regard specifically to audax participants the vaccination rate is likely to be higher than 90% as the national average is brought down by groups with very low take up e.g. Caribbean blacks at 58%. These groups are not highly represented in audax.
Add to this the introduction of universal twice weekly testing for everybody and I think the events with shared accommodation will be fine.
Post by: Davef on 05 April, 2021, 07:54:50 am
I remember there being a lot of old blokes in their mid 40s.
After my one audax I had a 35 year break.
On my return I have discovered that audax has changed. It now has a lot of youngsters in their mid 40s.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 April, 2021, 08:22:09 am
If 90% of the population is vaccinated the remaining unvaccinated have some immunity via previous infection then the R rate of say 4 with no intervention will be reduced to an effective rate less than 1.
With regard specifically to audax participants the vaccination rate is likely to be higher than 90% as the national average is brought down by groups with very low take up e.g. Caribbean blacks at 58%. These groups are not highly represented in audax.
Add to this the introduction of universal twice weekly testing for everybody and I think the events with shared accommodation will be fine.
The above would be true if vaccination was a barrier against asymptomatic transmission, but apparently you are only a bit less likely to spread around the virus if you are vaccinated, not a lot... so the idea of herd immunity as a strategy to avoid social distancing has been shelved some time ago. I think the hope now is that transmission will occur with minimal effect on the NHS... that's the hope.
In the latter part of your post you are navigating in dangerous waters, so I won't follow you there
As for lateral flow testing, they are rolling it out now, they won't be able to keep it going forever, it's not free at the point of purchase and at some point they will have to start cutting... I don't think these tests will be free forever... that said, they might be available to buy at cost and maybe LEL organisers might have to fork out
Post by: Jaded on 05 April, 2021, 08:58:33 am
If 90% of the population is vaccinated the remaining unvaccinated have some immunity via previous infection then the R rate of say 4 with no intervention will be reduced to an effective rate less than 1.
With regard specifically to audax participants the vaccination rate is likely to be higher than 90% as the national average is brought down by groups with very low take up e.g. Caribbean blacks at 58%. These groups are not highly represented in audax.
Add to this the introduction of universal twice weekly testing for everybody and I think the events with shared accommodation will be fine.
The above would be true if vaccination was a barrier against asymptomatic transmission, but apparently you are only a bit less likely to spread around the virus if you are vaccinated, not a lot... so the idea of herd immunity as a strategy to avoid social distancing has been shelved some time ago. I think the hope now is that transmission will occur with minimal effect on the NHS... that's the hope.
In the latter part of your post you are navigating in dangerous waters, so I won't follow you there
As for lateral flow testing, they are rolling it out now, they won't be able to keep it going forever, it's not free at the point of purchase and at some point they will have to start cutting... I don't think these tests will be free forever... that said, they might be available to buy at cost and maybe LEL organisers might have to fork out
Citation please.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 April, 2021, 09:08:39 am
Citation please.
Again, from the scientific advisors... vaccine cuts transmission by 30% or 70%, can't remember if you are 30% less likely or you are 30% as likely, but it wasn't a huge number, certainly not one to warrant herd immunity alone.
Everything helps to cut the Rt number, but getting below 1 without any intervention seems very unlikely. And this is with current strains, future strains, if they will ever exist, will inevitably be more transmissible... that's the rule of the game... the more transmissible mutation takes over
Post by: Hot Flatus on 05 April, 2021, 09:22:47 am
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7013e3.htm
Have to be careful with all the percentages flying around that people don't confuse that to which they refer. There is a difference between chance of infection, chance of transmitting whilst infected, and chance of suffering symptoms whilst infected.
The LFT thing is really about asymptomatic transmission, btw.
Post by: sojournermike on 05 April, 2021, 09:53:58 am
In terms of transmissibility, it’s not quite so simple as to say that new variants will be ore transmissible, so much as ‘more transmissible in the context they emerge in’ - so an immune escape variant would be more transmissible amongst a vaccinated population, even were it less transmissible amongst a naive population.
Similarly, the current variants of concern do actually appear to be both more transmissible and more deadly than the ‘wild’ variant, in spite of the press telling us viruses ‘always evolve to be more infectious and less deadly’. There hasn’t been selection pressure to become less deadly, so it’s not a given.
Audax will become what people want it to. I’d be delighted if it welcomed the baggy shorts hybrid/men rider alongside the aero carbon rider. Time wise, 200s give me a day off. If something takes 2 days or more it’s touring;)
Mike
Post by: Hot Flatus on 05 April, 2021, 10:09:35 am
It's years since I've done a 600, but I used to love getting in to the 400k nightstop at 11pm, having ridden it with a modicum of urgency. Full night sleep (allowing for all the anti-social twits switching the dorm lights on at 3am and then rustling about in their fucking carrier bags for an age) then setting off at 8am and treating the final 200k as just a nice day out without any desired finish time (always seemed to be 5pm though. weird)
I'm absolutely certain I couldn't do that now. I'm not convinced I could manage a 200k without considerable effort regardless of speed, and I think it'll be a few years before I get back to the point where audax was easy for me.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 05 April, 2021, 10:17:26 am
I think the exact opposite is more likely. Now that most people are expected to work from home, flu will never be accepted as a reason for a day off.We have had events for years despite the fact they spread the flu and many people die of that. Once less people are dying of covid than the flu it would be unreasonable not to return to normal. That is not the case yet, but we are fairly rapidly moving that way.
Funny you say that, as I was thinking the same, but differently. I don't think we will ever be allowed to go to work with a flu and Paracetamol, like it was acceptable before... now that we know that spreading viruses actually kill people.
I honestly didn't know that almost 10,000 people die of flu every year, despite vaccines and all... if you asked me last year, I would have thought maybe a few hundred frail elderly, nowhere near 10K.
Now that we are all very aware of what respiratory viruses do, we are not going back to that way of living, it just won't be socially acceptable
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 05 April, 2021, 10:22:10 am
People and machines will look different if you compare them with a quarter of a century between them. I guess I am now one of the hairy-nosed older gits I saw when I started, just out of my mid 30s. Maybe I'm less ebullient than I was then because audaxes are no longer an exciting novelty and I am tired. People like me in their early to mid 50s dont wear what looks like kit from the 60s because we weren't born then, let alone riding. Equally bikes once exotic are now the norm, and even long term stalwarts of audax (at least many of them) are open to their adoption. People can ride what they like, and some just like riding the bike they have always ridden, whereas others recognise that technology progresses in cycling just as it does in cars, televisions, aircraft, houses, and every form of engineering.This, really. There are growing numbers of fast roady types on carbon race bikes in audax, there are also older audaxers riding the old steel they've had since 1980, and there are veterans on new carbon or titanium. And I rode my first few audaxes on a hybrid! (though I don't think I was in baggies) and no one ever said I should be on something else. The sadomasochist police ("you will be made to suffer and be seen to suffer, you will be derided and be seen to be derided") are louder than their real life presence.
It strikes me that people on a hybrid and baggies are more likely to be welcomed now. I've seen a more diverse entry over the past few years with routes of entry from places other than CTC. This is in part due to internet spreading the word but also a growing interest in endurance (ultra) events coupled with bikepacking, and on/off road hybrid events (see TINAT as a great example). Audax is now touted in the cycling press as a 'must try' for cyclists, whereas it used to be a secret. In fact I'd never heard of audax until 2005, via this forum's predecessor, despite me reading the cycling press all my life.
Post by: Davef on 05 April, 2021, 10:24:51 am
If in the future people have to pay the £3 cost of a lateral flow test it could be added to the cost of the entry.
If 90% of the population is vaccinated the remaining unvaccinated have some immunity via previous infection then the R rate of say 4 with no intervention will be reduced to an effective rate less than 1.
With regard specifically to audax participants the vaccination rate is likely to be higher than 90% as the national average is brought down by groups with very low take up e.g. Caribbean blacks at 58%. These groups are not highly represented in audax.
Add to this the introduction of universal twice weekly testing for everybody and I think the events with shared accommodation will be fine.
The above would be true if vaccination was a barrier against asymptomatic transmission, but apparently you are only a bit less likely to spread around the virus if you are vaccinated, not a lot... so the idea of herd immunity as a strategy to avoid social distancing has been shelved some time ago. I think the hope now is that transmission will occur with minimal effect on the NHS... that's the hope.
In the latter part of your post you are navigating in dangerous waters, so I won't follow you there
As for lateral flow testing, they are rolling it out now, they won't be able to keep it going forever, it's not free at the point of purchase and at some point they will have to start cutting... I don't think these tests will be free forever... that said, they might be available to buy at cost and maybe LEL organisers might have to fork out
Post by: Hot Flatus on 05 April, 2021, 10:50:45 am
This, really. There are growing numbers of fast roady types on carbon race bikes in audax, there are also older audaxers riding the old steel they've had since 1980, and there are veterans on new carbon or titanium. And I rode my first few audaxes on a hybrid! (though I don't think I was in baggies) and no one ever said I should be on something else. The sadomasochist police ("you will be made to suffer and be seen to suffer, you will be derided and be seen to be derided") are louder than their real life presence.
My overriding impression of the first audaxes I rode were just how unfriendly they were in comparison to other sporting events I'd done, and also just how many of the riders (oldschool, steel bikes, flamboyant nose hair) looked like they were absolutely hating every single pedal stroke. I came to realise that in that era audax had more than its fair share of people for whom people skills were, shall we say, a bit lacking. The good thing about ACF (and later YACF) was that it acted as a conduit to meet people with whom you already had some sort of connection, although for some YACFers that was a downside not a benefit. Sorry :demon:
These days I don't get that feeling at all, at least not from the audaxes I do (mostly Mark's excellent Tewkesbury rides). I'm noticing that I know fewer and fewer people, but that people are far more open to conversation. At least until they get to know me.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 April, 2021, 10:53:06 am
Latest seems to be that there is "growing evidence" that vaccination cuts transmission. Some research suggests that two weeks after first dose of Modern/Pfizer people have 80% protection from infection, which presumeably means they cannot transmit.
That's where you are incorrect. You can still carry it around and spread it by talking loudly, heavy breathing etc. It's less likely, but it's still "quite" likely
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 April, 2021, 10:53:36 am
If in the future people have to pay the £3 cost of a lateral flow test it could be added to the cost of the entry.
If 90% of the population is vaccinated the remaining unvaccinated have some immunity via previous infection then the R rate of say 4 with no intervention will be reduced to an effective rate less than 1.
With regard specifically to audax participants the vaccination rate is likely to be higher than 90% as the national average is brought down by groups with very low take up e.g. Caribbean blacks at 58%. These groups are not highly represented in audax.
Add to this the introduction of universal twice weekly testing for everybody and I think the events with shared accommodation will be fine.
The above would be true if vaccination was a barrier against asymptomatic transmission, but apparently you are only a bit less likely to spread around the virus if you are vaccinated, not a lot... so the idea of herd immunity as a strategy to avoid social distancing has been shelved some time ago. I think the hope now is that transmission will occur with minimal effect on the NHS... that's the hope.
In the latter part of your post you are navigating in dangerous waters, so I won't follow you there
As for lateral flow testing, they are rolling it out now, they won't be able to keep it going forever, it's not free at the point of purchase and at some point they will have to start cutting... I don't think these tests will be free forever... that said, they might be available to buy at cost and maybe LEL organisers might have to fork out
That is a realistic possibility
Post by: Hot Flatus on 05 April, 2021, 10:54:27 am
Latest seems to be that there is "growing evidence" that vaccination cuts transmission. Some research suggests that two weeks after first dose of Modern/Pfizer people have 80% protection from infection, which presumeably means they cannot transmit.
That's where you are incorrect. You can still carry it around and spread it by talking loudly, heavy breathing etc. It's less likely, but it's still "quite" likely
If you can't get infected, how can you transmit?
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 April, 2021, 11:02:57 am
Latest seems to be that there is "growing evidence" that vaccination cuts transmission. Some research suggests that two weeks after first dose of Modern/Pfizer people have 80% protection from infection, which presumeably means they cannot transmit.
That's where you are incorrect. You can still carry it around and spread it by talking loudly, heavy breathing etc. It's less likely, but it's still "quite" likely
If you can't get infected, how can you transmit?
You do, the virus sits in your nose and throat for a while, but because you have antibodies, it doesn't progress any further.
It's quite common for vaccinated people to then test positive, upon exposure to the virus. The vast majority of them will never develop any symptom, but the fact that they test positive means they are potentially spreaders
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 05 April, 2021, 11:08:44 am
I didn't find them unfriendly, but I started several years after you and with shorter, local events. Plus I was usually riding them with a couple of people I at least vaguely knew already. And even then I was usually at the back, I guess attitudes are more laidback (even if the bikes aren't ;)) at that end.
This, really. There are growing numbers of fast roady types on carbon race bikes in audax, there are also older audaxers riding the old steel they've had since 1980, and there are veterans on new carbon or titanium. And I rode my first few audaxes on a hybrid! (though I don't think I was in baggies) and no one ever said I should be on something else. The sadomasochist police ("you will be made to suffer and be seen to suffer, you will be derided and be seen to be derided") are louder than their real life presence.
My overriding impression of the first audaxes I rode were just how unfriendly they were in comparison to other sporting events I'd done, and also just how many of the riders (oldschool, steel bikes, flamboyant nose hair) looked like they were absolutely hating every single pedal stroke. I came to realise that in that era audax had more than its fair share of people for whom people skills were, shall we say, a bit lacking. The good thing about ACF (and later YACF) was that it acted as a conduit to meet people with whom you already had some sort of connection, although for some YACFers that was a downside not a benefit. Sorry :demon:
These days I don't get that feeling at all, at least not from the audaxes I do (mostly Mark's excellent Tewkesbury rides). I'm noticing that I know fewer and fewer people, but that people are far more open to conversation. At least until they get to know me.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 05 April, 2021, 11:10:55 am
Latest seems to be that there is "growing evidence" that vaccination cuts transmission. Some research suggests that two weeks after first dose of Modern/Pfizer people have 80% protection from infection, which presumeably means they cannot transmit.
That's where you are incorrect. You can still carry it around and spread it by talking loudly, heavy breathing etc. It's less likely, but it's still "quite" likely
If you can't get infected, how can you transmit?
You do, the virus sits in your nose and throat for a while, but because you have antibodies, it doesn't progress any further.
It's quite common for vaccinated people to then test positive, upon exposure to the virus. The vast majority of them will never develop any symptom, but the fact that they test positive means they are potentially spreaders
Perhaps you should share this with the CDC. From what I can make out as a layman, they seem to disagree with you.
Post by: frankly frankie on 05 April, 2021, 11:13:16 am
When was free route introduced?
In answer to that question, the first season with 'advisory' routes was 2000. Incidentally that change was instigated by an experienced Scottish randonneur.
For some people, an audax seems to be defined by its cafe stops, and a long event by its sleepover facilities. Actually cycling doesn't seem to enter into it.
But surely audaxing lends itself as a socially-distanced activity, for solo or loosely-grouped cyclists. PoP can be by GPS or phone app, TLC controls can be al fresco in suitable lay-bys, village greens, car parks. (For every cafe or pub that's closed down in my area, 2 or 3 others have 'popped up' as street food enterprises.) Hanging around for more than half-an-hour actively discouraged. Starts can (and should) be staggered, and intermediate control timings abandoned.
Repeated loops should no longer be outlawed. They may not be pretty, but whenever there are restrictions on travel, they are a practical option.
Long events may, regrettably, have to be restructured - a 600 being back-to-back 300s or 400/200 for example, putting the onus on the individual rider to sort out sleep accomodation between the two.
Quote
If you can't get infected, how can you transmit?
Is touching surfaces no longer a thing? AIUI anyone (infected or not) can transmit by thoughtless rummaging among the fruit and veg.
Oh and by the way, this carbon vs steel thing is a total myth - I was randonneuring on a full-carbon bike in 1988, and I wasn't the only one, and there were no snarky comments.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 05 April, 2021, 11:15:42 am
Is touching surfaces no longer a thing? AIUI anyone (infected or not) can transmit by thoughtless rummaging among the fruit and veg.
The whole fomite thing is theatre really. We've gone from "wash your hands" as the only mitigating action to compulsory masks. It's airborne.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 April, 2021, 11:25:52 am
Perhaps you should share this with the CDC. From what I can make out as a layman, they seem to disagree with you.
Well, you got your info wrong. There is a press conference today at 5 PM, they might talk about that too, just watch it.
The vaccine is not an invisible barrier as it's often portarayed, it doesn't prevent a virus entering your airways...
Post by: Hot Flatus on 05 April, 2021, 11:28:21 am
The virus isnt replicating in their body and they aren't shedding huge quantities.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 April, 2021, 11:31:13 am
No, I understood that the first time you said that. But what you seem to not realise is that if a person does not get infected they are only able to shed the virus that went up their nose in the first place (ie not much)
The virus isnt replicating in their body and they aren't shedding huge quantities.
read
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00450-z
and if you can't be bothered, I quote some relevant bits:
The UK trial of the vaccine produced by the University of Oxford and AstraZeneca swabbed participants every week, and estimated a 49.3% reduction in asymptomatic infections among a subset of vaccinated participants compared with the unvaccinated group.
During the trial of Moderna's vaccine, produced in Boston, researchers swabbed all participants to see if they had any viral RNA. They saw a two-thirds drop in the number of asymptomatic infections among people who received the first shot of the two-dose vaccine, compared with those who received a placebo. But they tested people only twice, about a month apart, so might have missed infections.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 05 April, 2021, 11:35:17 am
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 April, 2021, 11:41:54 am
I have the very distinct impression that you aren't fully understanding this discussion or the evidence you are citing. Either way, that is me out.
typical... ::-)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 05 April, 2021, 11:43:45 am
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 April, 2021, 11:44:59 am
Ok, last post to you on this. You were banging on about UNINFECTED people in your previous post. Then you posted a link about INFECTED people. Get it yet?
I never talked about uninfected people...
Post by: Philip Whiteman on 05 April, 2021, 11:59:57 am
In answer to the question, I can only offer my personal event organising experience which is not representative of audax as a whole.
Over the past year many organisers understandably cancelled there events due to the Covid restrictions which either; (i) made events illegal, or; (ii) completely unfeasible when sporting events were still permitted. This created a severe deficit of audaxes available. My response was launch low-risk x-rated events. Something that I would have never previously contemplated. It was a pleasure to discover how easy they were to organise, plan and cancel if necessary.
The response was tremendous with riders booking places very quickly and happy to accept the adjustments required to ensure the x-rated event was AUK and Covid Reg compliant. So for me x-rated has been a turning point and I will continue to develop and plan events. Whether riders will remain equally happy to continue with x-rated events post pandemic is of course another question.
Whilst my normal mass hall based events were cancelled, I am planning a return to business as near normal as possible this summer. The Kidderminster Killer is already three quarters full and it is clear that pent-up demand exists. Control measures at the HQ such a Covid Officers may of course be necessary and the vaccination passports may also become a condition of entry subject to evolving government guidance.
There have been positives to from the pandemic that will provide a good legacy for audaxing. AUK have become increasingly acceptant of electronic 'proofs of passage' for calendar events and are busy developing e-brevet phone apps. When my riders tested the e-brevet last December, it was warmly welcomed even amongst the traditional fraternity.
Post by: Karla on 05 April, 2021, 12:25:06 pm
Is touching surfaces no longer a thing? AIUI anyone (infected or not) can transmit by thoughtless rummaging among the fruit and veg.
Surface transmission hasn't been a thing since the end of last summer. The consensus view since then is that the virus isn't hardy enough to pass from an infected person to a surface and then onto an uninfected person, and then cultivate more viruses.
Nature article (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4)
Lancet letter (https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S1473-3099%2820%2930678-2)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 05 April, 2021, 12:32:12 pm
Is touching surfaces no longer a thing? AIUI anyone (infected or not) can transmit by thoughtless rummaging among the fruit and veg.
Surface transmission hasn't been a thing since the end of last summer. The consensus view since then is that the virus isn't hardy enough to pass from an infected person to a surface and then onto an uninfected person, and then cultivate more viruses.
Nature article (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4)
Lancest letter (https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S1473-3099%2820%2930678-2)
^ this
The evolution of the discussion of means of transmission has been fascinating. A really weird collision of science and politics, as well as science and science.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 05 April, 2021, 12:55:08 pm
Ok, last post to you on this. You were banging on about UNINFECTED people in your previous post. Then you posted a link about INFECTED people. Get it yet?
I never talked about uninfected people...
I'm afraid you did. If a virus has not replicated within you then you are not infected. A virus needs to introduce its genetic material into your cells and hijack the cell's internal machinery to make more virus particles. This is what infection means, otherwise me having some viral RNA on my fingertip would constitute an 'infection', which clearly it does not. Inhaling some virus and having it sit in your nose without entering your cells is not infection.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 05 April, 2021, 12:58:15 pm
There have been positives to from the pandemic that will provide a good legacy for audaxing. AUK have become increasingly acceptant of electronic 'proofs of passage' for calendar events and are busy developing e-brevet phone apps. When my riders tested the e-brevet last December, it was warmly welcomed even amongst the traditional fraternity.
I think many of these changes would have eventually been forced anyway, the death of outdoor village cash machines and of the paper receipt would have been an existential problem eventually
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Post by: Manotea on 05 April, 2021, 12:58:26 pm
... I can only offer my personal event organising experience which is not representative of audax as a whole.
My experience as an organiser...
I had 'Covid Secure' versions of long-running events scheduled for January and February (this was pre-Jan lockdown) as x-events with limited fields and validation by GPS, all of which was made clear on the event calendar listing.
When the Jan lockdown hit I arranged for them to be suspended rather than canceled, to run as allowable so as to facilitate a smooth pickup of events.
I had also - in November - contacted the eBrevet team with a view to using that as an alternative solution to raw GPS tracks, as reports to date had been very positive. This struck me as being an ideal time to trial the eBrevet outside of Perms (small field, backup to the primary method of validation, tech aware riders, etc.)
The eBrevet team had the events set up on EBrevet within 24 hours or so of first contact but said that permission would be needed from AUK.
I contacted AUK then and have since subsequently. I have had zero response from those responsible for such matters.
What has been put to me is that I am 'bending the rules' by offering validation by GPS in the first place.
NB1: for those that don't know, I am the DIY Regional Organiser for the SE and process 1000+ DIY Brevets with validation by GPS a year, so I have some experience in these matters
NB2: I've posted similar to this through the delegates section of the AUK Forum, which, again, for those that don't know, I personally implemented the AUK Forum whilst AUK General Secretary to provide a communications channel between Board, Delegates and Members, something which was deeply opposed by some other Board members at the time, and again have had no response from anybody with executive responsibility
My feeling is that that the Board's have done a reasonable job in managing the COVID situation overall, however, it has all been in the context of an application for AUK to be recognised as a 'National Governing Body'.
Whilst NGB status would be 'nice to have', I doubt anybody outside the Board cares. What I do feel is that any sense of the Board representing AUK as a 'club' run for its members and supporting Organisers in a progressive sense has rather been lost in a blizzard of unimaginative jobsworthness. There are plenty of examples to support this view.
Anyway, the current situation is that the listed events have now been canceled, and it's unlikely any of my other events will run this year.
Post by: Davef on 05 April, 2021, 01:10:38 pm
The conclusion of the lancet letter is (my emphasis)...Is touching surfaces no longer a thing? AIUI anyone (infected or not) can transmit by thoughtless rummaging among the fruit and veg.
Surface transmission hasn't been a thing since the end of last summer. The consensus view since then is that the virus isn't hardy enough to pass from an infected person to a surface and then onto an uninfected person, and then cultivate more viruses.
Nature article (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4)
Lancest letter (https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S1473-3099%2820%2930678-2)
^ this
The evolution of the discussion of means of transmission has been fascinating. A really weird collision of science and politics, as well as science and science.
“Our findings suggest that environmental contamination leading to SARS-CoV-2 transmission is unlikely to occur in real-life conditions, provided that standard cleaning procedures and precautions are enforced.”
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 April, 2021, 02:03:06 pm
Ok, last post to you on this. You were banging on about UNINFECTED people in your previous post. Then you posted a link about INFECTED people. Get it yet?
I never talked about uninfected people...
I'm afraid you did. If a virus has not replicated within you then you are not infected. A virus needs to introduce its genetic material into your cells and hijack the cell's internal machinery to make more virus particles. This is what infection means, otherwise me having some viral RNA on my fingertip would constitute an 'infection', which clearly it does not. Inhaling some virus and having it sit in your nose without entering your cells is not infection.
That is your definition of infection, which is rather clumsy and doesn't help anybody. It is generally accepted that you have been infected if you do test positive for the virus genetic material, either by means of PCR or lateral flow test. That's helpful, because there is an unambiguous way of finding out.
This is the only definition that matters, as you do need to test positive in order to be "infective" towards others AND to develop the disease.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 April, 2021, 02:06:00 pm
There have been positives to from the pandemic that will provide a good legacy for audaxing. AUK have become increasingly acceptant of electronic 'proofs of passage' for calendar events and are busy developing e-brevet phone apps. When my riders tested the e-brevet last December, it was warmly welcomed even amongst the traditional fraternity.
That is indeed a great legacy and opens up possibilities for more remote routes, where controls are not obvious and gets rid of the tedious info controls
Post by: FifeingEejit on 05 April, 2021, 02:08:30 pm
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Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 April, 2021, 02:21:19 pm
Oh god this is going to turn into a I fo controls argument now
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Ha ha... no, but would anyone miss them if they're gone?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 05 April, 2021, 02:26:57 pm
Various routes that are impossible without them or an appropriate replacement.Oh god this is going to turn into a I fo controls argument now
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Ha ha... no, but would anyone miss them if they're gone?
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Post by: Chris S on 05 April, 2021, 03:06:06 pm
Various routes that are impossible without them or an appropriate replacement.Oh god this is going to turn into a I fo controls argument now
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Ha ha... no, but would anyone miss them if they're gone?
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Blanket acceptance of a gps tracklog for an event, as a means of validation, would help those who don't mind carrying a GPS device and/or simply hate infos.
Even now, I can hear the can of worms being opened...
Post by: postie on 05 April, 2021, 03:48:06 pm
Here is what i am seeing locally, riders are very keen to get audaxing again and very happy to go with the flow as regarding a return to normal, be it a new normal or the old one. But then audax club Portsmouth are generally a laid back bunch.
Big events may have to be smaller for a while, riding events in other countries many be another problem for a bit ,but again it will return in time.
My thoughts for run my events this year is simple.
X-rated with a postal finish and next year bring back the hall start/finish with all the homemade food. Not having to worry about halls etc this year means if i have to cancel for any reason (a real possibility in 2021 ) its going to be straight forward .
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 April, 2021, 05:27:47 pm
Symptomatic disease -60%
hospitalisation -80%
So we are not looking at anywhere near 95-99% which is needed to remove all restrictions.
In Chile, where 50% of the population have been vaccinated (pfizer + Sinovac), infections are rising rapidly... so that's not very promising
Post by: mattc on 05 April, 2021, 05:57:46 pm
Repeated loops should no longer be outlawed. They may not be pretty, but whenever there are restrictions on travel, they are a practical option.Yup, sounds wholly sensible.
Long events may, regrettably, have to be restructured - a 600 being back-to-back 300s or 400/200 for example, putting the onus on the individual rider to sort out sleep accomodation between the two.
.
(The loops thing has been a no-brainer since the beginning. Except to the AUK board ... )
Post by: Davef on 05 April, 2021, 06:15:36 pm
Fresh data, one dose onlyThat sounds about right and is completely consistent with 76% for symptomatic disease and 100% for hospitalisation after completing the two doses.
Symptomatic disease -60%
hospitalisation -80%
So we are not looking at anywhere near 95-99% which is needed to remove all restrictions.
In Chile, where 50% of the population have been vaccinated (pfizer + Sinovac), infections are rising rapidly... so that's not very promising
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 April, 2021, 06:58:07 pm
Fresh data, one dose onlyThat sounds about right and is completely consistent with 76% for symptomatic disease and 100% for hospitalisation after completing the two doses.
Symptomatic disease -60%
hospitalisation -80%
So we are not looking at anywhere near 95-99% which is needed to remove all restrictions.
In Chile, where 50% of the population have been vaccinated (pfizer + Sinovac), infections are rising rapidly... so that's not very promising
100% is just not possible... it might be that on trials, given the small numbers of people who got infected, they did achieve 100%, but in the real population it's just not possible. I would think 90% would be awesome and 95% would be extraordinary.
The current strain is not even the same the vaccines were tested against
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 05 April, 2021, 07:37:15 pm
Eventually the number of cells infected gets to a level where virus enters the blood stream and this is the point at which the vaccine will start to be of benefit and stop you becoming seriously ill.
To stop transmission from person to person completely you need a mucosal antibody and a vaccine delivered through the nose. These are under developments.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 05 April, 2021, 08:03:48 pm
To be clear about infected, transmission,etc. Firstly you inhale the virus. It is highly unlikely that the amount inhaled and able to cause infection would show up on a PCR test or lateral flow test. The virus attaches to the cells and gets inside where it replicates first in the mucosal cells of the nasopharynx. The cells then Rupture and reinfect other cells. At this point after about 3-5 days of this cycle your PCR will become positive. However the vaccine has made no difference to the infection so far as the virus is still not “inside” the body.Useful info. :thumbsup:
Eventually the number of cells infected gets to a level where virus enters the blood stream and this is the point at which the vaccine will start to be of benefit and stop you becoming seriously ill.
To stop transmission from person to person completely you need a mucosal antibody and a vaccine delivered through the nose. These are under developments.
Post by: JonBuoy on 05 April, 2021, 08:19:31 pm
Repeated loops should no longer be outlawed. They may not be pretty, but whenever there are restrictions on travel, they are a practical option.Yup, sounds wholly sensible.
Long events may, regrettably, have to be restructured - a 600 being back-to-back 300s or 400/200 for example, putting the onus on the individual rider to sort out sleep accomodation between the two.
.
(The loops thing has been a no-brainer since the beginning. Except to the AUK board ... )
Maybe I am just fortunate with my local roads but I easily managed to squeeze an audax-compliant 200k into a 10k radius from my house without getting too silly. It didn't feel too audacious but it was actually a really pleasant route that made me appreciate the variety of local scenery available to me with flat bits, lumpy bits, a bit of urban, some parks etc.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51097240372_74c6724384.jpg)
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 05 April, 2021, 09:45:38 pm
To be clear about infected, transmission,etc. Firstly you inhale the virus. It is highly unlikely that the amount inhaled and able to cause infection would show up on a PCR test or lateral flow test. The virus attaches to the cells and gets inside where it replicates first in the mucosal cells of the nasopharynx. The cells then Rupture and reinfect other cells. At this point after about 3-5 days of this cycle your PCR will become positive. However the vaccine has made no difference to the infection so far as the virus is still not “inside” the body.So can you explain why people who live with vaccinated health workers were less likely to be infected than people who live with unvaccinated health workers?
Eventually the number of cells infected gets to a level where virus enters the blood stream and this is the point at which the vaccine will start to be of benefit and stop you becoming seriously ill.
To stop transmission from person to person completely you need a mucosal antibody and a vaccine delivered through the nose. These are under developments.
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 05 April, 2021, 09:49:25 pm
Such as gps track or the eBrevet app, which works but for some reason doesn't seem to be in use on actual rides yet.Various routes that are impossible without them or an appropriate replacement.Oh god this is going to turn into a I fo controls argument now
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Ha ha... no, but would anyone miss them if they're gone?
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Post by: Ben T on 05 April, 2021, 10:58:23 pm
I think the exact opposite is more likely. Now that most people are expected to work from home, flu will never be accepted as a reason for a day off.
In my first ever proper job i used to skive quite a bit... my manager often berated me for not coming in if i said the reason was that i had “a cold”. Apparently that was not good enough a reason, even if i genuinely did feel awful. I soon learnt however that if i said i had “flu” instead, he accepted it - without ever really understanding what the difference between them was.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 06 April, 2021, 06:46:59 am
To be clear about infected, transmission,etc. Firstly you inhale the virus. It is highly unlikely that the amount inhaled and able to cause infection would show up on a PCR test or lateral flow test. The virus attaches to the cells and gets inside where it replicates first in the mucosal cells of the nasopharynx. The cells then Rupture and reinfect other cells. At this point after about 3-5 days of this cycle your PCR will become positive. However the vaccine has made no difference to the infection so far as the virus is still not “inside” the body.So can you explain why people who live with vaccinated health workers were less likely to be infected than people who live with unvaccinated health workers?
Eventually the number of cells infected gets to a level where virus enters the blood stream and this is the point at which the vaccine will start to be of benefit and stop you becoming seriously ill.
To stop transmission from person to person completely you need a mucosal antibody and a vaccine delivered through the nose. These are under developments.
Less likely is the key word there. Seemingly, vaccinated people shed less virus than non vaccinated and therefore are on average less contagious. That accounts for the difference.
It is obviously good news, but you can see in the US infections are not going down and in Chile are actually going up, despite both having around half the population now vaccinated.
Basically, the degree to which the vaccine prevents people passing on the virus is not enough to put a lid on the spread. So other measures will be necessary for the foreseeable future.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 06 April, 2021, 07:16:42 am
Chris has already refuted one of your claims when he said this..
It is highly unlikely that the amount inhaled and able to cause infection would show up on a PCR test or lateral flow test.
...which directly contradicted you.
Is this a battle between health professionals? May we know your medical credentials please, in order that we may gauge which one of you is speaking from a position of expertise? I'm just a layman, and reliant on those who know what they are talking about.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 06 April, 2021, 07:50:28 am
At this point I'm curious as to why you are answering a question that was directed at chrisbainbridge, who is a medical professional.
Chris has already refuted one of your claims when he said this..It is highly unlikely that the amount inhaled and able to cause infection would show up on a PCR test or lateral flow test.
...which directly contradicted you.
Is this a battle between health professionals? May we know your medical credentials please, in order that we may gauge which one of you is speaking from a position of expertise? I'm just a layman, and reliant on those who know what they are talking about.
Nobody contradicted anybody. There was some uncertainty among some members as to which extent vaccines stop transmission, hopefully we all agree they don't... or they do to some extent, but not to a large extent. Not enough...
That's the bottom line and that's what matters, then you can go on with your semantics about the definition of the word "infection", but do it alone, possibly somewhere else
Post by: Hot Flatus on 06 April, 2021, 08:00:00 am
Post by: Davef on 06 April, 2021, 08:16:18 am
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 06 April, 2021, 08:40:10 am
Interesting. My dog howls every time GD makes a post with percentages in it.
Probably prefers fractional notation... that can be sorted
More to the point: lateral flow test kits retail at £ 200 for a pack of 25... right now no organiser would commit to that
Post by: Davef on 06 April, 2021, 08:55:32 am
His knowledge of epidemiological modelling is limited to kermack-mckendrick which is quite outdated so perhaps you could give some more modern insights. I agree no organiser would pay for something that is currently free.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210406/c1eda3b087407bf5bc97c02653eda56e.jpg)Interesting. My dog howls every time GD makes a post with percentages in it.
Probably prefers fractional notation... that can be sorted
More to the point: lateral flow test kits retail at £ 200 for a pack of 25... right now no organiser would commit to that
Post by: Jaded on 06 April, 2021, 09:04:56 am
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 06 April, 2021, 09:13:55 am
I agree no organiser would pay for something that is currently free.
Of course... but you can't get large quantities and certainly you can't rely on riders "bringing their own", as you know half of them won't and after all you are there to run an event, not to be a cop.
Of course, I have also worked out that if you run a lot of events, you can turn quite a big profit by charging for test to everyone and making 10 quid per rider that doesn't show up (provided these tests have a long enough shelf life), but I don't think any organiser worth their salt will be interested in "making money" this way.
Anyway, I detect a level of sarcasm and non-constructive targeted criticism around which is frankly annoying. We don't have to have this conversation, or any conversation, for what that matters.
Post by: Davef on 06 April, 2021, 09:21:33 am
Of course you can require people bring their own which they have to hand in exchange for the brevet card. It could be mandated by AUK.I agree no organiser would pay for something that is currently free.
Of course... but you can't get large quantities and certainly you can't rely on riders "bringing their own", as you know half of them won't and after all you are there to run an event, not to be a cop.
Of course, I have also worked out that if you run a lot of events, you can turn quite a big profit by charging for test to everyone and making 10 quid per rider that doesn't show up (provided these tests have a long enough shelf life), but I don't think any organiser worth their salt will be interested in "making money" this way.
Anyway, I detect a level of sarcasm and non-constructive targeted criticism around which is frankly annoying. We don't have to have this conversation, or any conversation, for what that matters.
Edit: I would also add they do have a long useby - 2 years so you could pop one in your saddle bag now if you are absent minded like me.
Post by: TOBY on 06 April, 2021, 09:38:51 am
Post by: salar55 on 06 April, 2021, 10:26:10 am
Post by: Davef on 06 April, 2021, 10:38:05 am
Problem with an EBrevet? You would return to the original form of Audax, being that the organizers route. Who would want to check all the permutations. Never understood why someone enters an Audax and then decides the route is not good enough. These people could just do a diy?It could be done to be just like current non mandatory route audaxes. You might have say 4 controls and rather than picking up a receipt you click on a button on your phone.
Post by: grams on 06 April, 2021, 10:44:45 am
Post by: Philip Whiteman on 06 April, 2021, 10:54:13 am
Skimming this thread tells me the spirit of Audax is alive and well ;D
Quite.
I have just closed July's Kidderminster Killer to entries due to overwhelming demand, though I may release further places in June. My April and May x-rated audaxes were sold out in January at the height of the latest lockdown and I have a lengthy reserve list for each. Filling audaxes has never been so easy!
Post by: Philip Whiteman on 06 April, 2021, 10:58:53 am
That's exactly how the eBrevet app works. The unworthy are still allowed to skip the hills.
Perhaps I am missing the point, but how does this differ for a paper brevet card?
PS. I am a fan of the new e-brevet. It is very easy to use for both rider and organiser. In fact there is a lot less hassle than arranging printing, labelling and distribution of hard-based cards. Completion of a brevet is also notified to the organiser via e-mail, which is great for x-rated events. My riders also loved it when trialling it last December.
PPS. After ranting earlier about this thread going off-topic, I am now going off topic. :-[
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 06 April, 2021, 11:00:42 am
Filling audaxes has never been so easy!
refunding riders when you have too many is the painful part... :'(
Post by: salar55 on 06 April, 2021, 11:54:18 am
Filling audaxes has never been so easy!
refunding riders when you have too many is the painful part... :'(
No Sportives up and running? 👿
Post by: Ajax Bay on 06 April, 2021, 12:39:43 pm
Why don't you two have a read of the Warwick modelling (just published), in particular its rubric and the first table, and then have an informed discussion on this?At this point I'm curious as to why you are answering a question that was directed at chrisbainbridge, who is a medical professional.
Chris has already refuted one of your claims when he said this..It is highly unlikely that the amount inhaled and able to cause infection would show up on a PCR test or lateral flow test.
...which directly contradicted you.
Is this a battle between health professionals? May we know your medical credentials please, in order that we may gauge which one of you is speaking from a position of expertise? I'm just a layman, and reliant on those who know what they are talking about.
Nobody contradicted anybody. There was some uncertainty among some members as to which extent vaccines stop transmission, hopefully we all agree they don't... or they do to some extent, but not to a large extent. Not enough...
That's the bottom line and that's what matters, then you can go on with your semantics about the definition of the word "infection", but do it alone, possibly somewhere else
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/975911/S1184_SPI-M_University_of_Warwick_Road_Map_Scenarios_and_Sensitivity.pdf
"Vaccine action. Having been vaccinated, the protection generated can affect multiple components of the infection, illness and transmission process. This has been updated from the original calculations and now considers four elements separately:
- efficacy against infection;
efficacy against disease (which also affects transmission, as our default assumption is that asymptomatic infections transmit less than symptomatic ones);
efficacy against hospital admission and
efficacy against ICU and death."
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 06 April, 2021, 01:09:13 pm
Why don't you two have a read of the Warwick modelling (just published), in particular its rubric and the first table, and then have an informed discussion on this?
Why would I do that? If you read the title of the thread, it has nothing to do with the mechanism of action of vaccines or how infection takes hold.
It is about whether Audax will change or stay the same in the wake of the pandemic.
Incidentally, we ended up talking about whether (or not) vaccines will prevent transmission and the consensus is they will to some extent, but not to the extent required to just go around coughing in each other's face on a train as it was common place pre-2020.
So the RELEVANT question, is whether or not Audax will have to change as a result... some think yes, some think not, some interesting perspectives... and of course being YACF, a lot of the usual bullying...
I am not interested in being discredited, because there is nothing to discredit...
Post by: Jaded on 06 April, 2021, 02:05:38 pm
Why don't you two have a read of the Warwick modelling (just published), in particular its rubric and the first table, and then have an informed discussion on this?
Why would I do that? If you read the title of the thread, it has nothing to do with the mechanism of action of vaccines or how infection takes hold.
It is about whether Audax will change or stay the same in the wake of the pandemic.
Incidentally, we ended up talking about whether (or not) vaccines will prevent transmission and the consensus is they will to some extent, but not to the extent required to just go around coughing in each other's face on a train as it was common place pre-2020.
So the RELEVANT question, is whether or not Audax will have to change as a result... some think yes, some think not, some interesting perspectives... and of course being YACF, a lot of the usual bullying...
I am not interested in being discredited, because there is nothing to discredit...
I checked to see when vaccines were first mentioned on this thread.
Reply #7 (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=118846.msg2607882#msg2607882)
Post by: Ian H on 06 April, 2021, 03:00:35 pm
I checked to see when vaccines were first mentioned on this thread.
Reply #7 (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=118846.msg2607882#msg2607882)
Ooh! That was below the belt. ;)
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 06 April, 2021, 04:50:34 pm
Ooh! That was below the belt. ;)
Bearing in mind your role within AUK, is that all you have to say?
Very disappointing... I don't mind the others, all they do is to gang up to bully other YACF users, but I wasn't really expecting that from you.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 06 April, 2021, 05:15:56 pm
Post by: mattc on 06 April, 2021, 06:12:15 pm
Never understood why someone enters an Audax and then decides the route is not good enough. These people could just do a diy?Because cyclists are the most
Perhaps sometimes an organiser hasn't considered every route? Or perhaps she/he is a better climber than some riders, or more tolerant of rubbish surfaces? Or the traffic levels have changed since inceptionn.
All sorts of reasons spring to mind. And of course a DIY would take away the camaraderie at controls/HQ.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 06 April, 2021, 06:18:38 pm
Also, rider's local knowledge comes into play even if they aren't local. Some orgs dont mind busy main roads. I hate them and if I can find a quiet alternative I'll take it, even if it means more hills. Organisers are (I think) obliged to take the shortest route between controls...but this doesn't mean it is the nicest route depending on the POV of the riders. Rather than bitch about it, I'll just take an alternative.
Post by: JonBuoy on 06 April, 2021, 06:35:15 pm
Post by: grams on 06 April, 2021, 06:38:45 pm
Why don't these people eat packed lunch on a park bench instead?
Post by: Lightning Phil on 06 April, 2021, 06:41:29 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 06 April, 2021, 06:41:51 pm
Most people's variations on the route are the equivalent of picking olives out of the salad at a restaurant. Or occasionally, skipping the salad.
Why don't these people eat packed lunch on a park bench instead?
If ever there was a really audaxy thing to do, that is it.
You want to be careful with posts like that. It's like touching positive poles together...you could end up blowing up the universe.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 06 April, 2021, 06:44:12 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 06 April, 2021, 06:46:54 pm
Post by: Tommyp27 on 06 April, 2021, 06:56:16 pm
Most people's variations on the route are the equivalent of picking olives out of the salad at a restaurant. Or occasionally, skipping the salad.
Why don't these people eat packed lunch on a park bench instead?
If ever there was a really audaxy thing to do, that is it.
You want to be careful with posts like that. It's like touching positive poles together...you could end up blowing up the universe.
Would it not be a bus shelter? Or do most people prefer not to eat in bed?
Post by: Hot Flatus on 06 April, 2021, 06:57:00 pm
Post by: frankly frankie on 06 April, 2021, 07:38:00 pm
That's exactly how the eBrevet app works. The unworthy are still allowed to skip the hills.
Perhaps I am missing the point, but how does this differ for a paper brevet card?
PS. I am a fan of the new e-brevet. It is very easy to use for both rider and organiser. In fact there is a lot less hassle than arranging printing, labelling and distribution of hard-based cards. Completion of a brevet is also notified to the organiser via e-mail, which is great for x-rated events. My riders also loved it when trialling it last December.
PPS. After ranting earlier about this thread going off-topic, I am now going off topic. :-[
That reply seems perfectly on-topic to me.
Post by: Philip Whiteman on 06 April, 2021, 08:43:54 pm
Filling audaxes has never been so easy!
refunding riders when you have too many is the painful part... :'(
No Sportives up and running? 👿
Possibly but the majority are AUK members.
Post by: mzjo on 06 April, 2021, 09:12:53 pm
Repeated loops should no longer be outlawed. They may not be pretty, but whenever there are restrictions on travel, they are a practical option.Yup, sounds wholly sensible.
Long events may, regrettably, have to be restructured - a 600 being back-to-back 300s or 400/200 for example, putting the onus on the individual rider to sort out sleep accomodation between the two.
.
(The loops thing has been a no-brainer since the beginning. Except to the AUK board ... )
Maybe I am just fortunate with my local roads but I easily managed to squeeze an audax-compliant 200k into a 10k radius from my house without getting too silly. It didn't feel too audacious but it was actually a really pleasant route that made me appreciate the variety of local scenery available to me with flat bits, lumpy bits, a bit of urban, some parks etc.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51097240372_74c6724384.jpg)
Off thread because I am not thinking of audax and certainly not AUK but THAT'S COOL :) :) As someone stuck in a 10km radius restriction it gives me real morale boosting hope - but criss-crossing Limoges could give a fearful positive altitude figure ???
Post by: Feanor on 06 April, 2021, 09:20:59 pm
^ mattc spaketh some sense. ( :-* )
Also, rider's local knowledge comes into play even if they aren't local. Some orgs dont mind busy main roads. I hate them and if I can find a quiet alternative I'll take it, even if it means more hills. Organisers are (I think) obliged to take the shortest route between controls...but this doesn't mean it is the nicest route depending on the POV of the riders. Rather than bitch about it, I'll just take an alternative.
No, the org's suggested route does not need to be the shortest distance between controls.
The shortest route may include horrendous main roads.
The org's route will likely avoid them, and so will often be slightly longer than the shortest distance.
But there is the possibility that some riders might chose the main road anyway, so even if they do, that route must also be up-to-distance. Hence the shortest distance rule.
Sometimes, orgs may add info controls to force riders down the intended route.
Mandatory routes go a step further.
Sometimes, the *best* route is not practical for an organised event, for various reasons.
Perhaps it's so navigationally challenging that it's too hard to describe on a route-sheet, for example.
Post by: JonBuoy on 06 April, 2021, 10:00:45 pm
Repeated loops should no longer be outlawed. They may not be pretty, but whenever there are restrictions on travel, they are a practical option.Yup, sounds wholly sensible.
Long events may, regrettably, have to be restructured - a 600 being back-to-back 300s or 400/200 for example, putting the onus on the individual rider to sort out sleep accomodation between the two.
.
(The loops thing has been a no-brainer since the beginning. Except to the AUK board ... )
Maybe I am just fortunate with my local roads but I easily managed to squeeze an audax-compliant 200k into a 10k radius from my house without getting too silly. It didn't feel too audacious but it was actually a really pleasant route that made me appreciate the variety of local scenery available to me with flat bits, lumpy bits, a bit of urban, some parks etc.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51097240372_74c6724384.jpg)
Off thread because I am not thinking of audax and certainly not AUK but THAT'S COOL :) :) As someone stuck in a 10km radius restriction it gives me real morale boosting hope - but criss-crossing Limoges could give a fearful positive altitude figure ???
Strava reckons that that was 1842m of climbing so not stupid hilly but certainly not flat.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 06:43:50 am
Just waiting for someone to chip in with anecdotes on bench-sleeping and mandatory routes...
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 April, 2021, 07:44:33 am
If you don't like it you could always leave and come back again.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 08:11:43 am
If you don't like it you could always leave and come back again.
That would be the fourth time... can't stay away too long from this place... ::-)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 April, 2021, 08:15:33 am
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 09:16:11 am
I can't remember why you left the last time, but I used to enjoy your posts about wheel building.
Bullying... just like the previous time.
Fora have ups and downs, for instance Bike Radar used to be littered with trolls and bullies, now it seems to be a lot better and you can have a discussion of several pages before someone steps in to question your credentials or to discredit anything you say, just because... sometimes it doesn't even happen at all.
Over here, there appears to be a stronghold of undeterred internet warriors who make undermining others into their daily mission, you are one of them, not the worst one, I have to say. It could be because moderation is inexistent and if you complain about said individuals you don't even get an answer... hence you leave...
Then you realise it's the only forum where Audax is even a thing, so you come back... but then it doesn't take long before you regret it... and leave again
It's a vicious circle, eventually I will break it for good.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 April, 2021, 09:49:55 am
(click to show/hide)
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 10:03:50 am
OT response to GD's post(click to show/hide)
It is...
When you question someone's posts validity based on whether they are in a position to be believed or not, then it is bullying, I'm afraid.
The reason most of us use a nickname of some sort is because we don't want to disclose who we are with the rest of the world... there are plenty of reasons for that. I don't know who you are, other than you wear a pink YACF jersey, and frankly I don't care who you are. If I did, I would ask you privately.
The consequence is that you have to accept that you are talking about viruses with someone who could be an epidemiologist or a carpenter or anything in between and that's the way fora work.
Whether I have an association with the NHS or not is immaterial. As a matter of fact, I have spent most of my life in science, but never had to deal with viruses... where do I stand in your scale? Probably somewhere in between a doctor and a builder? Would that validate my reasoning or would that mean it's worthless? Or maybe somewhere in between... does it matter? It's a place for conversation and discussion, it's not a place to create knowledge.
This is no place to discuss our role in society... unless someone decides that they are quite happy for everybody to know their role...
Post by: John Stonebridge on 07 April, 2021, 10:06:24 am
(i) a surprisingly large number of people who think they know more about something than they really do and
(ii) at least one other person who actually does knows significantly more.
The trick is to know which one you are on any given subject.
If you are mostly a (i) then its possible you might feel systematically bullied on here as online tolerance levels for folk havering is likely to be lower than in other aspects of life eg work (*), bike rides, being a guest or host in somebody's home, the local cafe etc etc.
Rather than pretend I know anything on useful stuff like Covid or IT or suchlike I embrace the tremendously positive feeling knowing that the subjects on which I can be considered expert are extremely limited and largely useless. Edinburgh bus routes, the best way to cycle to Aberdeen, Scottish audaxes since 1982 and bakeries of east Central Scotland Im your man. Anything else, I'll likely to be talking mince (not that it wil stop me, its not like posting on YACF = giving evidence under oath).
(*) based on my white collar big company Head Office existence. I hope that in other workplaces its more normal and acceptable to tell somebody straight that they are talking shite.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 10:20:19 am
One thing Ive learned over the years about YACF is that, as in life, on any given subject there are
(i) a surprisingly large number of people who think they know more about something than they really do and
(ii) at least one other person who actually does knows significantly more.
The trick is to know which one you are on any given subject.
No, the trick is to know that these are places where people come to kill some time, because if they wanted to be informed about virus transmission, they would go elsewhere.
Post by: salar55 on 07 April, 2021, 10:21:14 am
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 April, 2021, 10:24:47 am
OT response to GD's post(click to show/hide)
It is...
When you question someone's posts validity based on whether they are in a position to be believed or not, then it is bullying, I'm afraid.
The reason most of us use a nickname of some sort is because we don't want to disclose who we are with the rest of the world... there are plenty of reasons for that. I don't know who you are, other than you wear a pink YACF jersey, and frankly I don't care who you are. If I did, I would ask you privately.
The consequence is that you have to accept that you are talking about viruses with someone who could be an epidemiologist or a carpenter or anything in between and that's the way fora work.
Whether I have an association with the NHS or not is immaterial. As a matter of fact, I have spent most of my life in science, but never had to deal with viruses... where do I stand in your scale? Probably somewhere in between a doctor and a builder? Would that validate my reasoning or would that mean it's worthless? Or maybe somewhere in between... does it matter? It's a place for conversation and discussion, it's not a place to create knowledge.
This is no place to discuss our role in society... unless someone decides that they are quite happy for everybody to know their role...
Sorry: you posted whilst I was editing the post you quoted so there are a few further points in there.
I agree with your points about prefering anonmymity. I do, because I don't want to attract spamming and trolling to the forum from the kids I teach, anymore than I want them to know more about my personal life than I choose to tell them. Plus I say rude things sometimes.
I think John Stonebridge has expressed the point about expertise succintly. If I start spaffing off about IT people will know to give little weight to my words because I literally don't know what the fuck I am talking about. Concomitantly, that poses a problem for me assessing the IT knowledge of others. See the problem? They might sound authoratitive...but they could be bullshitting and I wouldn't be able to tell because of the paucity of my knowledge. So I am reliant on them either giving some sort of evidence of to back up their assertions, whether it be citations of credentials or other qualified people either agreeing with them or contradicting them.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 10:36:05 am
I think John Stonebridge has expressed the point about expertise succintly. If I start spaffing off about IT people will know to give little weight to my words because I literally don't know what the fuck I am talking about. Concomitantly, that poses a problem for me assessing the IT knowledge of others. See the problem? They might sound authoratitive...but they could be bullshitting and I wouldn't be able to tell because of the paucity of my knowledge. So I am reliant on them either giving some sort of evidence of to back up their assertions, whether it be citations of credentials or other qualified people either agreeing with them or contradicting them.
But it shouldn't matter, because this is Yet Another Cycling Forum and not Yet Another Epidemiology Forum. So I would expect to come here and get informed about cycling related issues, not viruses. If the conversation moves to viruses and vaccines, I don't expect this to be "the place" where all will be revealed. That is the mistake that people often make... talking about stuff which is completely irrelevant to the forum and pretending this to be a panel of experts.
I would be mildy annoyed to be given the wrong information about a particular Audax event on here, but equally I would only blame myself if I was to believe anything that is said here on Climate Change or... epidemiology.
This kind of behaviour is where all the fake news stem from... the solution is not to bully out those you think are not knowledgeable, but to stop relying on a cycling forum for anything that is not cycling related...
That would cut the crap quite considerably
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 April, 2021, 10:39:08 am
You'll hate this, but a lot of shite is also talked here about cycling.
Where does that leave the value of this forum? You seem to be saying it has none, or little outside of audax. Most people here would disagree, because epidemiologists cycle too.
Post by: jimmea on 07 April, 2021, 10:39:37 am
One thing Ive learned over the years about YACF is that, as in life, on any given subject there are
(i) a surprisingly large number of people who think they know more about something than they really do and
(ii) at least one other person who actually does knows significantly more.
The trick is to know which one you are on any given subject.
If you are mostly a (i) then its possible you might feel systematically bullied on here as online tolerance levels for folk havering is likely to be lower than in other aspects of life eg work (*), bike rides, being a guest or host in somebody's home, the local cafe etc etc.
Rather than pretend I know anything on useful stuff like Covid or IT or suchlike I embrace the tremendously positive feeling knowing that the subjects on which I can be considered expert are extremely limited and largely useless. Edinburgh bus routes, the best way to cycle to Aberdeen, Scottish audaxes since 1982 and bakeries of east Central Scotland Im your man. Anything else, I'll likely to be talking mince (not that it wil stop me, its not like posting on YACF = giving evidence under oath).
(*) based on my white collar big company Head Office existence. I hope that in other workplaces its more normal and acceptable to tell somebody straight that they are talking shite.
And also calling them a bawbag
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 10:47:48 am
Here's the thing... some epidemiologists are also cyclists.
You'll hate this, but a lot of shite is also talked here about cycling.
Where does that leave the value of this forum?
And that's great... I am sure there is an epidemiology forum somewhere, where people can have a go at each other on the R0 value of Ebola and whether a vaccine will cut infection rates enough to get the Rt < 1.
The point of opening this thread was to hear about people's opinions of how Audax might change... that involves talking about the possible evolutions of the disease, but really this should not be a controversial subject, as it's asking for opinions not facts
Opinions, not knowledge, just fucking opinions!
There is not a lot of value in this forum to be honest... unless you read Brucey comments, which are always on point...
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 April, 2021, 11:02:42 am
Post by: salar55 on 07 April, 2021, 11:07:25 am
It used to be great looking at the weather on a Thursday night and saying i think that this Audax is on for me.
Turning up on the day and wondering if you have DNS card or just pay for the route sheet. When it changed to pre - book some of the magic was gone(knowing the route weeks before).
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 11:09:49 am
An opinion without knowledge has little value. Maybe that is where you are going wrong with your nihilistic view of this place.
But you can't filter it... it's pointless of you to ask for an ID that reassures that a comment is indeed coming from a valued source.
There is no practical way to double check, I could tell you any sort of bullshit. Then what happens is that you only trust the people you know and the place becomes a gathering of folks who know each other, trust each other and everybody else is out of the gang... reminiscing of the shared days on the road, when info controls were proper and brevet cards were the law!
oh, wait a minute... that's exactly what has happened on here! :o
Post by: John Stonebridge on 07 April, 2021, 11:14:56 am
Tell us about your white collar job🤭Naw.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 April, 2021, 11:20:49 am
An opinion without knowledge has little value. Maybe that is where you are going wrong with your nihilistic view of this place.
But you can't filter it... it's pointless of you to ask for an ID that reassures that a comment is indeed coming from a valued source.
There is no practical way to double check, I could tell you any sort of bullshit.
The only ID I asked for was if you had a background that included likely expertise in this topic, and I would have accepted it in good faith.Other people asked for citations. Maybe you could have cited the epidemiological forum to which you refer. I didn't want your name, who you work for, or anything else because that is private unless you choose to reveal it. I was trying to assess the value of your statement against that of Chris's. Chris could be bullshitting about his entire professional career, yes, but given his investment into the community of yacf I think that is highly unlikely. I guess this is the crux of it. You don't see any value in yacf as anything. Others do and act accordingly.
Post by: John Stonebridge on 07 April, 2021, 11:21:29 am
:thumbsup:........
I hope that in other workplaces its more normal and acceptable to tell somebody straight that they are talking shite.
And also calling them a bawbag
Post by: salar55 on 07 April, 2021, 11:22:42 am
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 11:30:52 am
An opinion without knowledge has little value. Maybe that is where you are going wrong with your nihilistic view of this place.
But you can't filter it... it's pointless of you to ask for an ID that reassures that a comment is indeed coming from a valued source.
There is no practical way to double check, I could tell you any sort of bullshit.
The only ID I asked for was if you had a background that included likely expertise in this topic, and I would have accepted it in good faith.Other people asked for citations. Maybe you could have cited the epidemiological forum to which you refer. I didn't want your name, who you work for, or anything else because that is private unless you choose to reveal it. I was trying to assess the value of your statement against that of Chris's. Chris could be bullshitting about his entire professional career, yes, but given his investment into the community of yacf I think that is highly unlikely. I guess this is the crux of it. You don't see any value in yacf as anything. Others do and act accordingly.
Having read Chris comment... I struggle to see this big contradiction you point at, to be honest. When I said " the virus sits in your nose and throat" I never meant that it's there dorment and ready to be ejected... I meant it's not progressing any further, which is the same thing he said, admittedly better.
To which extent it replicates in situ is a matter for experts in the field, I assume it will to some extent... the life of a virus is replicate or die... maybe the extent to which it replicates before being wiped out determines how infective you are going to be... it seems reasonable, but again, it's a matter for experts in the field, and probably not even settled among them. It would seem unreasonable to digress this stuff on here!
Basically I don't think we should go any further than quoting stuff from the mainstream media on here, because it's not the place to have this type of conversation.
As I said, I have an extensive background in science and whilst I don't have any specific knowledge, I think I have a grasp of how things work, but I am not interested in proving anything.
Post by: Ben T on 07 April, 2021, 11:54:48 am
The forum, like any, doesn't have a recognized authentication method, so as a reader, I have no way of telling whether any given poster actually is a medical professional or simply claims to be a medical professional, and neither should I need/want one.
It's a bit like saying wikipedia should only be edited by "scholars". Maybe, but that massively restricts the pool of contributors. If you say some opinions should be given more weight on a forum and therefore that should override all others are those from "appropriate professionals" then you essentially stifle the discussion.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 April, 2021, 11:56:41 am
Post by: FifeingEejit on 07 April, 2021, 12:04:09 pm
It's not, but I do it anyway...........
I hope that in other workplaces its more normal and acceptable to tell somebody straight that they are talking shite.
And also calling them a bawbag
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 12:09:57 pm
I don't think anyone who "is a medical [or any other] professional", or says they are, should have their opinion given any more weight on a largely anonymous internet forum than anybody else.
The forum, like any, doesn't have a recognized authentication method, so as a reader, I have no way of telling whether any given poster actually is a medical professional or simply claims to be a medical professional, and neither should I need/want one.
It's a bit like saying wikipedia should only be edited by "scholars". Maybe, but that massively restricts the pool of contributors. If you say some opinions should be given more weight on a forum and therefore that should override all others are those from "appropriate professionals" then you essentially stifle the discussion.
yes, yes, yes... that's exactly it!
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 April, 2021, 12:12:39 pm
Right...I really have to leave this now, I do actually have things to do :) )
Post by: FifeingEejit on 07 April, 2021, 12:14:19 pm
I don't think anyone who "is a medical [or any other] professional", or says they are, should have their opinion given any more weight on a largely anonymous internet forum than anybody else.
The forum, like any, doesn't have a recognized authentication method, so as a reader, I have no way of telling whether any given poster actually is a medical professional or simply claims to be a medical professional, and neither should I need/want one.
You are Michael Gove and I claim my 50 pence and packet of Rollos.
More Seriously, if someone asks medical questions or talks medical pish then people with the medical k ow ledge regardless of where it is should be allowed to speak out.
Replace medical with, Engineering, Architectural, Legal, It etc etc.
It's all the same.
The alternative is people get to talk pish with impunity and ultimately someone comes to serious harm or other. That's unethical.
The Problem of verification however is valid, the good news is, if Chris is using his real name then there are multiple sources you can validate it against that are public starting with the gmc website.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 12:17:01 pm
This isn't wiki. This is a community of people interacting over what is now 16 years. Many of whom have met, are friends, some have married or formed partnerships. It is absolutely fine for GD not to invest anything in the forum at all, but he has to accept that many others do. He wants to be a transient member, fine. He places no value at all in the forum, fine. At least I can weigh up his contribution with that in mind. I don't mean that as a snarky comment or an insult to him, just that it is likely that I won't view him as a poster in whom I place value in the way that I do in some others.
Look, there was a time when I was the authority on bicycle wheels on another forum, that lasted for about 3-4 years. One day I got a call in the office from a guy threatening me because of a comment I made. There is not much you can do when the forum host can't help.
I won't go that route again, I'm sorry, I won't get personally invested with a random population of internet people. As soon as I smell a bit of stalking, like the same user targeting me on more than one thread, I'm gone.
Post by: Jaded on 07 April, 2021, 12:18:05 pm
The alternative is people get to talk pish with impunity and ultimately someone comes to serious harm or other. That's unethical.You get anti-vexers and anti-lockdowners getting disproportionate airtime.
We've seen it here, but, thanks to the generally thoughtful posters, they often get short-shrift.
Post by: Ben T on 07 April, 2021, 12:27:30 pm
More Seriously, if someone asks medical questions or talks medical pish then people with the medical k ow ledge regardless of where it is should be allowed to speak out.
Replace medical with, Engineering, Architectural, Legal, It etc etc.
It's all the same.
The alternative is people get to talk pish with impunity and ultimately someone comes to serious harm or other. That's unethical.
Maybe the solution is that we shouldn't be arguing about matters of fact and posting opinions instead.
...the good news is, if Chris is using his real name then there are multiple sources you can validate it against that are public starting with the gmc website.
Brilliant!
so is this method still valid for people called "John Smith" or "Dave Jones" or is Chris's surname rare enough as makes no odds?
Even so we have no way of knowing whether he even is using his real name.
Post by: Ben T on 07 April, 2021, 12:36:38 pm
The alternative is people get to talk pish with impunity and ultimately someone comes to serious harm or other. That's unethical.You get anti-vexers and anti-lockdowners getting disproportionate airtime.
We've seen it here, but, thanks to the generally thoughtful posters, they often get short-shrift.
Most have given up trying to change the opinions of bigots as they are probably sick of their perpetual straw man arguments, hyperbolic anecdote, and refusal to engage in adult debate, and don't really even need to bother anyway because their points are being made far more eloquently by a growing number of journalists, and apart from a shrinking minority are increasingly preaching to the converted anyway.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 07 April, 2021, 12:36:56 pm
It would be like bloody stackoverflow
Q: hi, I'm having a problem setting toe in on my cantis, they're tektro bah
A1: don't use cantis use discs
A2: don't use cantis use calupers
A3: don't use cantis use v-brakes
A4: what do you need brakes for.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 12:38:29 pm
You are agreeing with Ben T's objection to dicscussion being stifled, and at the same time stifling the discussion by saying it shouldn't even take place here. Contradictory, much ??? ???
.. and again, a quick stab at undermining me, because apparently I contradict myself... you can't resist... do you not see that I don't do it with you?
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 12:40:47 pm
Opinions are generally useless, how in fuck can I find out how to fix my brakes from opinions.
It would be like bloody stackoverflow
Q: hi, I'm having a problem setting toe in on my cantis, they're tektro bah
A1: don't use cantis use discs
A2: don't use cantis use calupers
A3: don't use cantis use v-brakes
A4: what do you need brakes for.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Would you look for an answer on an epidemiology forum?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 07 April, 2021, 12:53:53 pm
Nah I'd go on tiktok and ask Dr KatOpinions are generally useless, how in fuck can I find out how to fix my brakes from opinions.
It would be like bloody stackoverflow
Q: hi, I'm having a problem setting toe in on my cantis, they're tektro bah
A1: don't use cantis use discs
A2: don't use cantis use calupers
A3: don't use cantis use v-brakes
A4: what do you need brakes for.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Would you look for an answer on an epidemiology forum?
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 April, 2021, 12:54:19 pm
You are agreeing with Ben T's objection to dicscussion being stifled, and at the same time stifling the discussion by saying it shouldn't even take place here. Contradictory, much ??? ???
.. and again, a quick stab at undermining me, because apparently I contradict myself... you can't resist... do you not see that I don't do it with you?
Way back in this thread, you started arguing with something I said about infection, about virions etc etc. I didn't claim you were undermining me, discrediting me. I didn't take it as some sort of personal attack. In fact 'me' didn't come into it. This really is futile, now, and I think this is really about how you perceive interactions with you.
And with that in mind, and with a huge virtual hug from me for you, I'm going to cease responding to you because I sense that it will have an impact that is certainly not intended by me.
Peace out :)
Post by: Jaded on 07 April, 2021, 12:56:17 pm
The alternative is people get to talk pish with impunity and ultimately someone comes to serious harm or other. That's unethical.You get anti-vexers and anti-lockdowners getting disproportionate airtime.
We've seen it here, but, thanks to the generally thoughtful posters, they often get short-shrift.
Most have given up trying to change the opinions of bigots as they are probably sick of their perpetual straw man arguments, hyperbolic anecdote, and refusal to engage in adult debate, and don't really even need to bother anyway because their points are being made far more eloquently by a growing number of journalists, and apart from a shrinking minority are increasingly preaching to the converted anyway.
Yes, anti-vax and anti-lockdown bigots are tiresome, aren't they.
Post by: Ben T on 07 April, 2021, 01:29:57 pm
Opinions are generally useless, how in fuck can I find out how to fix my brakes from opinions.
It would be like bloody stackoverflow
Q: hi, I'm having a problem setting toe in on my cantis, they're tektro bah
A1: don't use cantis use discs
A2: don't use cantis use calupers
A3: don't use cantis use v-brakes
A4: what do you need brakes for.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
different with asking for advice to having a debate though.
Yes, anti-vax and anti-lockdown bigots are tiresome, aren't they.
straw man again
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 01:37:46 pm
You are agreeing with Ben T's objection to dicscussion being stifled, and at the same time stifling the discussion by saying it shouldn't even take place here. Contradictory, much ??? ???
.. and again, a quick stab at undermining me, because apparently I contradict myself... you can't resist... do you not see that I don't do it with you?
Way back in this thread, you started arguing with something I said about infection, about virions etc etc. I didn't claim you were undermining me, discrediting me. I didn't take it as some sort of personal attack. In fact 'me' didn't come into it. This really is futile, now, and I think this is really about how you perceive interactions with you.
And with that in mind, and with a huge virtual hug from me for you, I'm going to cease responding to you because I sense that it will have an impact that is certainly not intended by me.
Peace out :)
I said that you were incorrect in your statement, which is different from implying that you are not credible as a person.
Mine was a comment in reply to your comment, yours are comments on me as a person, that's the difference between having a discussion and bullying.
It is very, very important!
Post by: Manotea on 07 April, 2021, 01:40:22 pm
Opinions are constant whereas facts can change.
Post by: Jaded on 07 April, 2021, 01:46:48 pm
Opinions are generally useless, how in fuck can I find out how to fix my brakes from opinions.
It would be like bloody stackoverflow
Q: hi, I'm having a problem setting toe in on my cantis, they're tektro bah
A1: don't use cantis use discs
A2: don't use cantis use calupers
A3: don't use cantis use v-brakes
A4: what do you need brakes for.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
different with asking for advice to having a debate though.
Yes, anti-vax and anti-lockdown bigots are tiresome, aren't they.
straw man again
Not at all.
And if it is, then your post is too.
Post by: Ben T on 07 April, 2021, 02:28:41 pm
Post by: postie on 07 April, 2021, 02:45:49 pm
Post by: Davef on 07 April, 2021, 02:52:28 pm
For me the issue is misinformation even if accidental might dissuade people from vaccination. AZ are saying from the trials close to 80% efficacy against symptomatic illness and 100% efficacy against serious illness and hospitalisation. However you were saying it would be awesome to get even 90% efficacy against hospitalisation and death (and also quoted figures for after a single dose).You are agreeing with Ben T's objection to dicscussion being stifled, and at the same time stifling the discussion by saying it shouldn't even take place here. Contradictory, much ??? ???
.. and again, a quick stab at undermining me, because apparently I contradict myself... you can't resist... do you not see that I don't do it with you?
Way back in this thread, you started arguing with something I said about infection, about virions etc etc. I didn't claim you were undermining me, discrediting me. I didn't take it as some sort of personal attack. In fact 'me' didn't come into it. This really is futile, now, and I think this is really about how you perceive interactions with you.
And with that in mind, and with a huge virtual hug from me for you, I'm going to cease responding to you because I sense that it will have an impact that is certainly not intended by me.
Peace out :)
I said that you were incorrect in your statement, which is different from implying that you are not credible as a person.
Mine was a comment in reply to your comment, yours are comments on me as a person, that's the difference between having a discussion and bullying.
It is very, very important!
It is not unreasonable to ask where you get this “90% would be awesome” from, if it is a reliable source it would be nice to see a link, if it is from your own expertise some sort of indication of what that expertise is or at least some workings.
To my thinking if there is 80% efficacy against symptomatic illness then 90% against hospitalisation and death seems very low in comparison. This would indicate those unfortunate enough develop symptomatic covid despite being vaccinated would stand 50% chance of hospitalisation or death.
If in the unvaccinated population you develop symptomatic covid there may be say a 10% chance of needing hospitalisation and of those hospitalised a 10% chance of death (giving 1% fatality amongst symptomatic cases).
If those fractions were similar for those in the 20% that the vaccine failed to protect, multiplying, you get 2% chance of hospitalisation and 0.2% of death.
So given an 80% efficacy against developing symptoms that should give a 98% efficacy against hospitalisation and 99.8% against death even the vaccine provided no benefits at all to those that became symptomatic.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 03:20:33 pm
For me the issue is misinformation even if accidental might dissuade people from vaccination. AZ are saying from the trials close to 80% efficacy against symptomatic illness and 100% efficacy against serious illness and hospitalisation. However you were saying it would be awesome to get even 90% efficacy against hospitalisation and death (and also quoted figures for after a single dose).You are agreeing with Ben T's objection to dicscussion being stifled, and at the same time stifling the discussion by saying it shouldn't even take place here. Contradictory, much ??? ???
.. and again, a quick stab at undermining me, because apparently I contradict myself... you can't resist... do you not see that I don't do it with you?
Way back in this thread, you started arguing with something I said about infection, about virions etc etc. I didn't claim you were undermining me, discrediting me. I didn't take it as some sort of personal attack. In fact 'me' didn't come into it. This really is futile, now, and I think this is really about how you perceive interactions with you.
And with that in mind, and with a huge virtual hug from me for you, I'm going to cease responding to you because I sense that it will have an impact that is certainly not intended by me.
Peace out :)
I said that you were incorrect in your statement, which is different from implying that you are not credible as a person.
Mine was a comment in reply to your comment, yours are comments on me as a person, that's the difference between having a discussion and bullying.
It is very, very important!
It is not unreasonable to ask where you get this “90% would be awesome” from, if it is a reliable source it would be nice to see a link, if it is from your own expertise some sort of indication of what that expertise is or at least some workings.
To my thinking if there is 80% efficacy against symptomatic illness then 90% against hospitalisation and death seems very low in comparison. This would indicate those unfortunate enough develop symptomatic covid despite being vaccinated would stand 50% chance of hospitalisation or death.
If in the unvaccinated population you develop symptomatic covid there may be say a 10% chance of needing hospitalisation and of those hospitalised a 10% chance of death (giving 1% fatality amongst symptomatic cases).
If those fractions were similar for those in the 20% that the vaccine failed to protect, multiplying, you get 2% chance of hospitalisation and 0.2% of death.
So given an 80% efficacy against developing symptoms that should give a 98% efficacy against hospitalisation and 99.8% against death even the vaccine provided no benefits at all to those that became symptomatic.
For the record, I received my AZ vaccine 12 days ago, so I am certainly not trying to dissuade people from vaccinating. I hope they do, but I am not here campaigning for them to do so either, it's a cycling forum FFS... as a matter of fact, I got my vaccine early probably because someone else didn't take theirs... so there is a silver lining... ;D
Latest data on first dose, as reported above are 3/5 efficacy on reducing infection and 4/5 in reducing hospitalisation (wouldn't want your dog to howl), that's based on first dose only. My understanding is that the second dose marginally improves those figures, but the main objective is to extend the protection (that's what Whitty seems to stress in the press conferences).
We don't have figures including the second dose in the real world yet, only for trials. I seem to recall Astra Zeneca was around 70% effective in reducing infection and over 90% effective in reducing hospitalisations. That is based on around 20,000 volunteers, of which a handful ended up in hospital among the placebo population, so those data on hospitalisations and deaths are inevitably subject to more real world data.
As for transmission, who knows, if you look at Chile you might wonder whether it prevents transmission at all... over here they have come up with a 30% figure (as above, I can't remember if it reduces by 30% or reduces to 30%). It would be simplistic to conclude that if infections are down 60%, then even transmission should be down 60%. You could infect someone at 9 AM and test negative at 5 PM or the other way round, it is entirely possible... if you want to avoid bias, you need to avoid preconceptions.
But most importantly, none of these numbers matter, if the question is "how will Audax change as a result of Covid?"
Post by: Ian H on 07 April, 2021, 03:27:49 pm
Yes but will audax recover from this????Those who want to ride distances will do so. There will always be someone willing to act as ACP rep. Anything else is fluff.
Post by: postie on 07 April, 2021, 03:30:07 pm
Post by: Carlosfandango on 07 April, 2021, 03:34:50 pm
Post by: Davef on 07 April, 2021, 03:38:32 pm
There have been 2 main AZ trials, each with 32000 participants. There were zero hospitalisations or deaths amongst the vaccinated cohort though unfortunately there were some in the placebo groups.For me the issue is misinformation even if accidental might dissuade people from vaccination. AZ are saying from the trials close to 80% efficacy against symptomatic illness and 100% efficacy against serious illness and hospitalisation. However you were saying it would be awesome to get even 90% efficacy against hospitalisation and death (and also quoted figures for after a single dose).You are agreeing with Ben T's objection to dicscussion being stifled, and at the same time stifling the discussion by saying it shouldn't even take place here. Contradictory, much ??? ???
.. and again, a quick stab at undermining me, because apparently I contradict myself... you can't resist... do you not see that I don't do it with you?
Way back in this thread, you started arguing with something I said about infection, about virions etc etc. I didn't claim you were undermining me, discrediting me. I didn't take it as some sort of personal attack. In fact 'me' didn't come into it. This really is futile, now, and I think this is really about how you perceive interactions with you.
And with that in mind, and with a huge virtual hug from me for you, I'm going to cease responding to you because I sense that it will have an impact that is certainly not intended by me.
Peace out :)
I said that you were incorrect in your statement, which is different from implying that you are not credible as a person.
Mine was a comment in reply to your comment, yours are comments on me as a person, that's the difference between having a discussion and bullying.
It is very, very important!
It is not unreasonable to ask where you get this “90% would be awesome” from, if it is a reliable source it would be nice to see a link, if it is from your own expertise some sort of indication of what that expertise is or at least some workings.
To my thinking if there is 80% efficacy against symptomatic illness then 90% against hospitalisation and death seems very low in comparison. This would indicate those unfortunate enough develop symptomatic covid despite being vaccinated would stand 50% chance of hospitalisation or death.
If in the unvaccinated population you develop symptomatic covid there may be say a 10% chance of needing hospitalisation and of those hospitalised a 10% chance of death (giving 1% fatality amongst symptomatic cases).
If those fractions were similar for those in the 20% that the vaccine failed to protect, multiplying, you get 2% chance of hospitalisation and 0.2% of death.
So given an 80% efficacy against developing symptoms that should give a 98% efficacy against hospitalisation and 99.8% against death even the vaccine provided no benefits at all to those that became symptomatic.
For the record, I received my AZ vaccine 12 days ago, so I am certainly not trying to dissuade people from vaccinating. I hope they do, but I am not here campaigning for them to do so either, it's a cycling forum FFS... as a matter of fact, I got my vaccine early probably because someone else didn't take theirs... so there is a silver lining... ;D
Latest data on first dose, as reported above are 3/5 efficacy on reducing infection and 4/5 in reducing hospitalisation (wouldn't want your dog to howl), that's based on first dose only. My understanding is that the second dose marginally improves those figures, but the main objective is to extend the protection (that's what Whitty seems to stress in the press conferences).
We don't have figures including the second dose in the real world yet, only for trials. I seem to recall Astra Zeneca was around 70% effective in reducing infection and over 90% effective in reducing hospitalisations. That is based on around 20,000 volunteers, of which a handful ended up in hospital among the placebo population, so those data on hospitalisations and deaths are inevitably subject to more real world data.
As for transmission, who knows, if you look at Chile you might wonder whether it prevents transmission at all... over here they have come up with a 30% figure (as above, I can't remember if it reduces by 30% or reduces to 30%). It would be simplistic to conclude that if infections are down 60%, then even transmission should be down 60%. You could infect someone at 9 AM and test negative at 5 PM or the other way round, it is entirely possible... if you want to avoid bias, you need to avoid preconceptions.
But most importantly, none of these numbers matter, if the question is "how will Audax change as a result of Covid?"
Post by: Peter on 07 April, 2021, 03:39:05 pm
Gawd 'elp us, I don't know about Audax, but there's a few ego's that'll never recover from this ;D
Carlos, this is a serious subject! My bike hasn't even been called for its FIRST vaccination yet and it's certainly in the elderly age group. Further, the sandals were stuck in the Suez canal for a week. It's going to be touch and go. Or rather, touch - wash hands - and go.
Post by: Carlosfandango on 07 April, 2021, 03:40:47 pm
Post by: Davef on 07 April, 2021, 03:54:10 pm
I seem to recall Astra Zeneca was around 70% effective in reducing infection and over 90% effective in reducing hospitalisations. That is based on around 20,000 volunteers,
32449 participants
79% vaccine efficacy at preventing symptomatic COVID-19
100% efficacy against severe or critical disease and hospitalisation
https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases/2021/astrazeneca-us-vaccine-trial-met-primary-endpoint.html
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 April, 2021, 03:55:25 pm
Yes but will audax recover from this????Those who want to ride distances will do so. There will always be someone willing to act as ACP rep. Anything else is fluff.
Aren't your events all X-rated anyway?
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 April, 2021, 07:01:55 pm
The alternative is people get to talk pish with impunity and ultimately someone comes to serious harm or other. That's unethical.You get anti-vexers and anti-lockdowners getting disproportionate airtime.
We've seen it here, but, thanks to the generally thoughtful posters, they often get short-shrift.
Most have given up trying to change the opinions of bigots as they are probably sick of their perpetual straw man arguments, hyperbolic anecdote, and refusal to engage in adult debate, and don't really even need to bother anyway because their points are being made far more eloquently by a growing number of journalists, and apart from a shrinking minority are increasingly preaching to the converted anyway.
Journalists or pundits, and do you understand the distinction?
You do realise that outside of a tiny number of very vocal internet loons ( :o) , some self-interested internet grifters like L.Fox and some truly egregious opportunist pundits like Julia Hartley-Bawbag there really are no anti-vax/mask advocates.
Post by: mattc on 07 April, 2021, 07:50:25 pm
^ mattc spaketh some sense. ( :-* )Jesus H Chr... - this lockdown really is affecting the nation's mental health.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 April, 2021, 07:58:55 pm
I'm very pleased with the progress you've been making, Matthew. We are nearly at the point where we can start talking about day release and maybe remove the genital cuff.
Post by: mattc on 07 April, 2021, 08:04:36 pm
maybe remove the genital cuff.No.
WON'T let you.
It feels NICE.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 April, 2021, 08:05:04 pm
Post by: Von Broad on 07 April, 2021, 10:17:01 pm
but after reading the thread title, I was one verge of replying, 'this is the thread for me', and all that.......the meat and bones of my post mostly concerned itself with deep melancholy, an outrageous accumulation of beer cans and bottles, and a rather pathetic descent into the comforting warm bath of mournful country music.
It was only at the last minute that I'd misread the thread title as reading -
"Will an Audaxer as we know it recover from this?'"
And really......I wish I was joking!!!!!
Post by: Ben T on 07 April, 2021, 10:57:14 pm
...sick of their ... refusal to engage in adult debate...
Journalists or pundits, and do you understand the distinction?
You do realise that outside of a tiny number of very vocal internet loons ( :o) , some self-interested internet grifters like L.Fox and some truly egregious opportunist pundits like Julia Hartley-Bawbag there really are no anti-vax/mask advocates.
QED ::-)
Post by: Ben T on 07 April, 2021, 11:07:31 pm
Yes but will audax recover from this????
Eventually sleeping in dorms will become legal. People’s choice whether to partake or not. A question might be do enough eschew it to make it not worth the organiser putting it on.
To me, as soon as staying away from home is legal, where to sleep is usually not an insurmountable problem due to Airbnb. Personally i rarely sleep well in dorms/ most organiser provided facilities anyway but each to their own...
Post by: Hot Flatus on 08 April, 2021, 06:22:26 am
...sick of their ... refusal to engage in adult debate...
Journalists or pundits, and do you understand the distinction?
You do realise that outside of a tiny number of very vocal internet loons ( :o) , some self-interested internet grifters like L.Fox and some truly egregious opportunist pundits like Julia Hartley-Bawbag there really are no anti-vax/mask advocates.
QED ::-)
I'm sure you'll be able cite these journalists then won't you, Ben.
Look, you are asking the impossible, Ben. You are asking us to take ridiculous people seriously.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 08 April, 2021, 07:36:54 am
Eventually sleeping in dorms will become legal. People’s choice whether to partake or not. A question might be do enough eschew it to make it not worth the organiser putting it on.
I guess LEL will be the big test, maybe BCM a smaller one before that. Don't think anything of the sort is going to happen this year, but I might be wrong.
Are volunteers still going to be keen? Personally I was due to help at Barnard Castle, but I am not sure I want to do it in 2022. Some reasons are personal, I would like to have flexibility in my calendar in the summer, since it looks like I won't be able to go abroad this year, same as last year. Maybe 2022 will be the year when I set foot on the other side of the channel? But part are concerns related to crowds of people from all corners of the world... social distancing and basic hygiene being difficult when folks are tired and sleep deprived.
As an organiser I would also feel more awkward in asking people for help at events, knowing I might put them in a position where they agree, but they would rather not...
It's probably a lot of paranoia, but it's there and I'm probably not the only one...
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 08 April, 2021, 09:27:47 am
And this is think is the essence here. Audax as usual will be allowed, but some will be hesitant.
Eventually sleeping in dorms will become legal. People’s choice whether to partake or not. A question might be do enough eschew it to make it not worth the organiser putting it on.
I guess LEL will be the big test, maybe BCM a smaller one before that. Don't think anything of the sort is going to happen this year, but I might be wrong.
Are volunteers still going to be keen? Personally I was due to help at Barnard Castle, but I am not sure I want to do it in 2022. Some reasons are personal, I would like to have flexibility in my calendar in the summer, since it looks like I won't be able to go abroad this year, same as last year. Maybe 2022 will be the year when I set foot on the other side of the channel? But part are concerns related to crowds of people from all corners of the world... social distancing and basic hygiene being difficult when folks are tired and sleep deprived.
As an organiser I would also feel more awkward in asking people for help at events, knowing I might put them in a position where they agree, but they would rather not...
It's probably a lot of paranoia, but it's there and I'm probably not the only one...
Events that have traditionally been oversubscribed will still be sold out. Events which have not may see reductions in participants, this may affect their viability.
The vast majority of audax events as far as I can tell do not involve overnight accommodation in halls. Of the five 400s I have done only two had a hall for the overnight control and that was more for rest and food than actual sleep. So only 600s and above are affected.
Over time when the serious illness and deaths from covid reduce to near zero more people will resume previous activities
Post by: Hot Flatus on 08 April, 2021, 09:41:45 am
So when will that be? Probably by next summer. (EDIT: normality to return next summer, not lifting of restrictions. That will happen this year, I think)
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 08 April, 2021, 10:09:49 am
Audax will return to normal just as soon as legal conditions allow them to. That really is the crux of it. Everything else is just handwringing guff.Why do you think
So when will that be? Probably by next summer.
"By step 4 which will take place no earlier than 21 June (2021), the government hopes to be in a position to remove all legal limits on social contact"
Would not apply to allowing audax?
Obviously it may move back from the June date, but expecting it to be pushed to next summer seems pessimistic.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 08 April, 2021, 10:12:28 am
200s? Yeah, sure, we may well see those this year.
EDIT: I see the possible confusion in my earlier post, giving the possible interpretation that legal restrictions will lift next year. Didn't mean that. Meant that legal restrictions will lift this year and normality will return next summer. Sorry for confusion.
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 08 April, 2021, 10:23:31 am
Assuming 21 June, how many big catered for audaxes do you anticipate will be organised and run before next summer? In other words, you have to allow time for organisers to organise, entrants to enter etc. Given that 21st June is already towards the end of the audax season and that orgs are unlikely to start orging without strong confidence that legal restrictions will lift I don't see much in the way of big events this year, and they don't really happen september to april anyway.My point was they will be allowed this year.
200s? Yeah, sure, we may well see those this year.
I expect few to be run this summer, as time for planning an event makes it unlikely, although I am expecting lejog to go ahead.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 08 April, 2021, 10:24:15 am
Post by: Ivo on 08 April, 2021, 10:29:12 am
The vast majority of audax events as far as I can tell do not involve overnight accommodation in halls. Of the five 400s I have done only two had a hall for the overnight control and that was more for rest and food than actual sleep. So only 600s and above are affected.
There aren't that many people who can finish a 400 with a decent sleep, most people push through.
On the continent you'll hardly see an oroganiser consdidering sleeping options for a mere 400.
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 08 April, 2021, 10:39:42 am
Depends on the terrain, and start time, I did a flat 400 with a full night's sleep (7hours) once, slept between sunset and sunrise.
The vast majority of audax events as far as I can tell do not involve overnight accommodation in halls. Of the five 400s I have done only two had a hall for the overnight control and that was more for rest and food than actual sleep. So only 600s and above are affected.
There aren't that many people who can finish a 400 with a decent sleep, most people push through.
On the continent you'll hardly see an oroganiser consdidering sleeping options for a mere 400.
But generally, if you are fast enough to have time for a sleep, you don't need one.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 08 April, 2021, 12:58:48 pm
Audax will return to normal just as soon as legal conditions allow them to. That really is the crux of it. Everything else is just handwringing guff.
Sweeping statement?
It isn't handwringing guff, it is a legitimate concern. After one year of pondering postponements, then cancelling, then refunding and rearranging riders to a permanent version of the brevet, finally ending up with a manageable number = 30, which allows me to run an event without having to appoint Covid officers and without having to put the life of others at risk for the entertainment of a small crowd, I have decided that this is going to be the last calendar event for me. I will still organise permanent events, I will probably create new ones, because I like plotting routes, but I'm done with calendar events.
So, as far as I am concerned, at least one event is lost from the calendar... there will be a lot more, inevitably... one might argue there were too many anyway... 500+, with half of them well undersubscribed.
The bottom line is that I don't think things will "return to normal" as soon as conditions will allow.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 08 April, 2021, 01:11:47 pm
That possibly doesn't mean what you think it means.Audax will return to normal just as soon as legal conditions allow them to. That really is the crux of it. Everything else is just handwringing guff.Why do you think
So when will that be? Probably by next summer.
"By step 4 which will take place no earlier than 21 June (2021), the government hopes to be in a position to remove all legal limits on social contact"
Would not apply to allowing audax?
Obviously it may move back from the June date, but expecting it to be pushed to next summer seems pessimistic.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 08 April, 2021, 01:20:49 pm
That possibly doesn't mean what you think it means.Audax will return to normal just as soon as legal conditions allow them to. That really is the crux of it. Everything else is just handwringing guff.Why do you think
So when will that be? Probably by next summer.
"By step 4 which will take place no earlier than 21 June (2021), the government hopes to be in a position to remove all legal limits on social contact"
Would not apply to allowing audax?
Obviously it may move back from the June date, but expecting it to be pushed to next summer seems pessimistic.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
I agree... it seems a deliberately vague statement and it might only mean that it will not be against the law for you to do this and that. You will probably still be required to to do this and that in order to enter a supermarket and there might still be restrictions to the number of people that can attend a given event, just as there were before Covid, the number might be smaller than it was then.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 08 April, 2021, 06:39:32 pm
Contrast with Israel, also highly vaccinated, which came out of lockdown 40 days ago and is seeing 86% fewer daily cases since.
Post by: Karla on 08 April, 2021, 07:16:18 pm
Post by: frankly frankie on 09 April, 2021, 11:32:24 am
** UK on the other hand just has several international airports can't wait to get back to work ...
Post by: Davef on 09 April, 2021, 11:52:02 am
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Post by: Hot Flatus on 09 April, 2021, 05:03:51 pm
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1380512731456016385?s=20
Post by: LiamFitz on 11 April, 2021, 07:08:07 pm
In that time war broke out, allegations of stifling free speech were bandied around, we have a bit of debate about vaccine efficacy and a few other diversions.
Good to see that audaxers without audaxing don't change!
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 12 April, 2021, 08:32:32 am
Good to see that audaxers with audaxing don't change!
We haven't had full lowdown of Audax achievements yet.. normally you are only as credible as the number of SR you can boast. It's ultra or die
Post by: LiamFitz on 12 April, 2021, 09:10:58 am
Good to see that audaxers with audaxing don't change!
We haven't had full lowdown of Audax achievements yet.. normally you are only as credible as the number of SR you can boast. It's ultra or die
Typo in my post - should have said "audaxers withOUT audaxing..."
TBH - I've always felt that YACF celebrates the finest in pedantry and unnecessary grumpiness... characteristics you rarely encounter when we're actually riding!
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 12 April, 2021, 09:56:28 am
TBH - I've always felt that YACF celebrates the finest in pedantry and unnecessary grumpiness... characteristics you rarely encounter when we're actually riding!
You say that, but...
My first long brevet was John's National 400 in 2018. I remember on the way back from Aberystwyth, as the climb gradually became a fast A-road flat, we caught up with this AUK veteran (you can tell by the amount of clutter on the bike), who as soon as saw we were approaching, made a hell of an effort to drop us... by then it was getting dark and safety was in numbers, unless you are of a grumpy nature of course.
Eventually, he lost his jacket a mile to the finish and that was duly picked up and returned to him... didn't seem particularly grateful either...
So there...
Post by: Peat on 20 April, 2021, 02:23:32 pm
My first long brevet was John's National 400 in 2018. I remember on the way back from Aberystwyth, as the climb gradually became a fast A-road flat, we caught up with this AUK veteran (you can tell by the amount of clutter on the bike), who as soon as saw we were approaching, made a hell of an effort to drop us... by then it was getting dark and safety was in numbers, unless you are of a grumpy nature of course.
I was out that way last week and drove that section of the A44. Absolutely stunning views in the daylight, but the way the logging trucks/general traffic scream along there gave me the willies and i'd certainly think twice about riding it in the daytime. On that night, I don't remember any particularly scary passes once we crested the first hill out of Aberystwyth and left the boy racers behind.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 21 April, 2021, 06:34:06 pm
Chile have also mainly vaccinated with Sinovac, which is the worse of the two Chinese vaccines, with efficacy results from trials as low as 50%.
Nevertheless, it's working..
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1384878143308173313?s=20