Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => MTB => Topic started by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 August, 2021, 10:10:20 pm
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It's to do with the terrain, and also Strava, it seems.
https://theconversation.com/are-e-bikes-ruining-mountain-biking-166121
On a barely even tangentially related note, I saw the labelling on one of those "reusable but disposable" coffee cups, "ecoffee". Which is presumably meant to be read as a portmanteau of eco and coffee, but did make me think "electric coffee".
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Sounds like all the usual arguments that non-cyclists use against mountain bikers.
Maybe the erosion and manners are worse, or maybe they've just found an exciting new visible outgroup...
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"The Conversation - Academic rigour, journalistic flair"
I think 'journalistic flair' triumphs over 'academic rigour' in this Conversation.
"Sales of electric bikes have increased dramatically recently. In 2020, 4.6 million e-bikes were sold in the EU and UK, a 52% rise year on year. In the UK, nearly one in three adult bikes sold are now electric."
A tell you nothing useful sentence worthy of the Mail.
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Their research is nothing in the sort, click on the link.
“travelling at speeds that are unsafe for other users of the countryside”
Ironic given the hill walkers complaining almost certainly drove to the start of their walk at speeds that are unsafe for other road users.
Erosion from hill walking in the Lakes is well known and been a problem for decades.
Perhaps the greater question is the pressure and environmental impact from the vast hordes who decide to drive to and around the Lakes.
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Considering MTBs have moved to fatter tyres with lower air pressures and this is believed to be less erosive on the ground than skinny mtb tyres and even feet, and that an eMTB can be used to go up steeper stuff that would previously have required said feet.
You could argue eMTBs will cause less erosion.
Shite braking techniques however...
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"The Conversation - Academic rigour, journalistic flair"
I think 'journalistic flair' triumphs over 'academic rigour' in this Conversation.
Unfortunately that seems to be increasingly the case on The Conversation over the last couple of years.
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Considering MTBs have moved to fatter tyres with lower air pressures and this is believed to be less erosive on the ground than skinny mtb tyres and even feet, and that an eMTB can be used to go up steeper stuff that would previously have required said feet.
You could argue eMTBs will cause less erosion.
Shite braking techniques however...
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I've always argued that MTB causes less erosion than walking. Back where I used to live the back roads were "horse riding routes" and in the winter they were neigh on impassable by foot or bike - I was frequently up to my hubs in churned up mud.
I've ridden through many country parks and other outside places where cycling is "discouraged" and left no trails or damage at all. Unfortunately my riding style isn't the same as others who can tear up the ground through excessive braking, and so damage is obvious to fuel further hatred towards the cycling community from the anti-cycling mentality out there.
Recently I've been on official cycle routes through the countryside, where the horse riders can go everywhere and complain if a cyclist dares leave the authorised path. Their argument is the damage bikes cause, but I just look at the ground and question which bikes are equipped with horse shoes as that's the only evidence of damage and erosion. It has always amused me when I'm chugging up a steep track and get overtaken by a couple of OAPs riding their e-bikes back to their campervan.
Much as I dislike e-bikes and have to constantly explain that my dynohub isn't a motor, I think it's a good thing that it's enabling non-cyclists to get out into the countryside and explore.
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Agree with all above.
OT, but the only thing that annoys me about ebikes is just how hard they're being pushed. Every MTB YouTuber is always bigging them up which is hardly surprising seeing as they're being paid to ride and promote the bloody things.
This week has been the MTB world champs. Now there's even an E-XC race! If people want to race eebs, that's fine by me, but a world championship race? Will we be seeing an e-road race? Maybe an e-TT? Perhaps they could introduce it to athletics. We could have the e-10,000m where every other lap they get on an e-scooter....
I think it's a good thing that it's enabling non-cyclists to get out into the countryside and explore.
The thing is though, most e-MTBs are being used by young people who are just too fucking lazy to pedal up hills...
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Apparently there's going to be an ebike championship in Yorkshire in 2022, sponsored by Wrigley's chewing gum.
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Agree with all above.
OT, but the only thing that annoys me about ebikes is just how hard they're being pushed. Every MTB YouTuber is always bigging them up which is hardly surprising seeing as they're being paid to ride and promote the bloody things.
This week has been the MTB world champs. Now there's even an E-XC race! If people want to race eebs, that's fine by me, but a world championship race? Will we be seeing an e-road race? Maybe an e-TT? Perhaps they could introduce it to athletics. We could have the e-10,000m where every other lap they get on an e-scooter....
I think it's a good thing that it's enabling non-cyclists to get out into the countryside and explore.
The thing is though, most e-MTBs are being used by young people who are just too fucking lazy to pedal up hills...
What next?
A Motorcycle Grand Prix World Championship?
Motorcycle Trials being a sport?
Going up hill on them isn't effortless either, it's a "different" sport from what is seen as traditional MTB, but I doubt you could put Dougie Lampkin on a Super Bike and expect him to win the IoM TT, or for that matter put John McGuiness on a Trials Bike and expect him to be class topping at a 6-Days trial either.
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Going up hill on them isn't effortless either, it's a "different" sport from what is seen as traditional MTB, ...
Maybe not a sport, but as per above it amazes me every time I get overtaken by OAPs on a steep gravel uphill when they are hardly pedalling.
Last week I was heading home from the shops, not hanging around but with panniers and rucksack full of shopping. I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.
I'm not sure I agree with the "effortless" word in your statement, but I haven't ridden a ebike so I won't dispute your usage of it.
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I doubt you could put Dougie Lampkin on a Super Bike and expect him to win the IoM TT, or for that matter put John McGuiness on a Trials Bike and expect him to be class topping at a 6-Days trial either.
I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not talking about different cycling disciplines, just like your example, an XC rider is never going to win a DH race and a DH rider is never going to win an XC race. But we're talking an XC race and an e-XC race. If all the XC riders did a race on acoustic bikes, then did the same on e-bikes, I can't see there being much difference in the result.
Dunno why you were talking about motorcycles anyway, this is about e-assisted racing. Which to me seems pointless. A bit like say, e-assisted weightlifing or e-assisted marathon running....
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Bobb, as a fellow player, can I ask if you invented "acoustic bike"? It's brilliant!
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Bobb, as a fellow player, can I ask if you invented "acoustic bike"? It's brilliant!
I've seen it used on twitter before...
J
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First use I can find is 2014.
https://twitter.com/thebeatcroft/status/421263159673245696
J
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Bobb, as a fellow player, can I ask if you invented "acoustic bike"? It's brilliant!
As mentioned, it's quite a common term!
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OK - but thanks for bringing it to me!
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I doubt you could put Dougie Lampkin on a Super Bike and expect him to win the IoM TT, or for that matter put John McGuiness on a Trials Bike and expect him to be class topping at a 6-Days trial either.
I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not talking about different cycling disciplines, just like your example, an XC rider is never going to win a DH race and a DH rider is never going to win an XC race. But we're talking an XC race and an e-XC race. If all the XC riders did a race on acoustic bikes, then did the same on e-bikes, I can't see there being much difference in the result.
Dunno why you were talking about motorcycles anyway, this is about e-assisted racing. Which to me seems pointless. A bit like say, e-assisted weightlifing or e-assisted marathon running....
It was a comparable example of different disciplines in outwardly the same sport that came to mind, also includes motor assisted movement...
e-XC and XC are different disciplines, they don't race against each other.
Manipulating the motor assistance and handling the increased weight is part of e-MTB racing that isn't part of normal-MTB racing.
The motor assistance also makes fatter tyres more suitable for XC, where you may have gone for a 2.4 instead of a 2,2 for a technical track, you might be looking at being able to use 3" tyres which further helps on roots and rocks as does the extra speed, this may mean that a rider who is better on less technical tracks does better over technical features than they normally would.
It would be interesting to see current XC racers do one race normally then another race on the same track with e-XC bikes.
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I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.
Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?
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I doubt you could put Dougie Lampkin on a Super Bike and expect him to win the IoM TT, or for that matter put John McGuiness on a Trials Bike and expect him to be class topping at a 6-Days trial either.
I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not talking about different cycling disciplines, just like your example, an XC rider is never going to win a DH race and a DH rider is never going to win an XC race. But we're talking an XC race and an e-XC race. If all the XC riders did a race on acoustic bikes, then did the same on e-bikes, I can't see there being much difference in the result.
Dunno why you were talking about motorcycles anyway, this is about e-assisted racing. Which to me seems pointless. A bit like say, e-assisted weightlifing or e-assisted marathon running....
It was a comparable example of different disciplines in outwardly the same sport that came to mind, also includes motor assisted movement...
e-XC and XC are different disciplines, they don't race against each other.
Manipulating the motor assistance and handling the increased weight is part of e-MTB racing that isn't part of normal-MTB racing.
The motor assistance also makes fatter tyres more suitable for XC, where you may have gone for a 2.4 instead of a 2,2 for a technical track, you might be looking at being able to use 3" tyres which further helps on roots and rocks as does the extra speed, this may mean that a rider who is better on less technical tracks does better over technical features than they normally would.
It would be interesting to see current XC racers do one race normally then another race on the same track with e-XC bikes.
OK, fair enough. Good points.
But do we really need a world championship e-XC race? As far as I can tell it's just an exhibition race for the purposes of selling more bikes. I'm not sure any of the top XC riders took part?
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Isn't all sport involving sponsored technical machinery just a marketing exercise?
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I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.
Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?
That's what I thought too, but there were three of them. Two that overtook me, and one I saw earlier on my way out. All same design.
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Considering MTBs have moved to fatter tyres with lower air pressures and this is believed to be less erosive on the ground than skinny mtb tyres and even feet.
This I refuse to believe. I use several hiking trails where bikes aren't allowed and it's clear to see the damage from the few who does ride it anyway. (Despite these trails aren't really good for MTB's and world class MTB trails are all over the place nearby)
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Considering MTBs have moved to fatter tyres with lower air pressures and this is believed to be less erosive on the ground than skinny mtb tyres and even feet.
This I refuse to believe. I use several hiking trails where bikes aren't allowed and it's clear to see the damage from the few who does ride it anyway. (Despite these trails aren't really good for MTB's and world class MTB trails are all over the place nearby)
Quick reference search gives this.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327275644_The_influence_of_tire_size_on_bicycle_impacts_to_soil_and_vegetation
I'd say mtb tyres erode more on descent and hiking on climbs, but that's based on seeing people slide down hill locked up and climbed up other people's boot steps cut into hillsides rsther than any study.
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I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.
Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?
Not a issue off road :)
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Bobb, as a fellow player, can I ask if you invented "acoustic bike"? It's brilliant!
As mentioned, it's quite a common term!
Judas!
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I may need to explain this to any one not a Dylan fan or under 60.....
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I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.
Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?
That's what I thought too, but there were three of them. Two that overtook me, and one I saw earlier on my way out. All same design.
Not necessarily. They might just have strong riders. If acoustic Nutty can go up hill at 15mph, then acoustic super-Nutty can go faster. However, there are many unregulated e-bikes in use. I'm impressed by Nutty's 15mph up hill.
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... the back roads were "horse riding routes" and in the winter they were neigh on impassable by foot or bike ...
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Considering MTBs have moved to fatter tyres with lower air pressures and this is believed to be less erosive on the ground than skinny mtb tyres and even feet, and that an eMTB can be used to go up steeper stuff that would previously have required said feet.
You could argue eMTBs will cause less erosion.
Shite braking techniques however...
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Bikes of any kind make tyre ruts enabling water to run down the hill. Apparently the stream also takes soil and so the erosion is increased. Footprints of walkers are bad enough of course. I read that there is a 45 minute queue for the summit of Mount Snowdon :o
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I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.
Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?
That's what I thought too, but there were three of them. Two that overtook me, and one I saw earlier on my way out. All same design.
Not necessarily. They might just have strong riders. If acoustic Nutty can go up hill at 15mph, then acoustic super-Nutty can go faster. However, there are many unregulated e-bikes in use. I'm impressed by Nutty's 15mph up hill.
The assistance cuts out entirely at 15
When I got a shot of one to play in my then local woods it took me a wee while to figure out how to go manipulate the cranks such that I went everywhere at 14.99mph
That was until the battery ran out and I had to lug it home.
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Assistance cuts out (if to UK/EU spec), but transmission does not.
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Not a issue off road :)
Indeed, but as Nutty was overtaken by three cyclists and he factored in the speeds the cars were doing I assumed he took his shopping home by a road route rather than the off road shopping home route :P
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I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.
Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?
Not a issue off road :)
Also illegal off road, unless you have permission from the landowner.
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Not a issue off road :)
Indeed, but as Nutty was overtaken by three cyclists and he factored in the speeds the cars were doing I assumed he took his shopping home by a road route rather than the off road shopping home route :P
Go to the top of the class.
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I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.
Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?
Not a issue off road :)
Also illegal off road, unless you have permission from the landowner.
I suppose you can give yourself permission. I am thinking of buying a country estate when the price drops a little.
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Bobb, as a fellow player, can I ask if you invented "acoustic bike"? It's brilliant!
As mentioned, it's quite a common term!
Surely the classical bike came before the acoustic bike.
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Assistance cuts out (if to UK/EU spec), but transmission does not.
Faecebook Marketplace is full of e-bikes claiming up to 2,500W and 50mph.
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Imagine how easily you could achieve splatty DETH by fitting that kind of power to a fast recumbent...
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Bobb, as a fellow player, can I ask if you invented "acoustic bike"? It's brilliant!
As mentioned, it's quite a common term!
Surely the classical bike came before the acoustic bike.
Yes, but it was very short-lived because of the nylon/gut spokes.
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I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.
Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?
On the road yes, not off road in the woods. I’ve seen e mtb on forest tracks in Dolomites and definitely not e pedalec compliant.
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Why would your seeing it make it legal - do they have different regulations?
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First use I can find is 2014.
https://twitter.com/thebeatcroft/status/421263159673245696
J
Although Luka Bloom wrote "The Acoustic Motorbike" in 1992 about his love of cycling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5TFTbT5eEM&ab_channel=KAYLEPH
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Adam, I seem to know that name - is he Christy Moore's son?
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According to Wikipedia that's right. (I'd never heard of either of them before Adam's post above.)
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I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.
Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?
On the road yes, not off road in the woods. I’ve seen e mtb on forest tracks in Dolomites and definitely not e pedalec compliant.
Off road legality gets complicated. My understanding is that under UK law, anything capable of going faster than 15mph is a mechanically propelled vehicle and so can't be used on Bridleways, period. It could be legal on BOATs and RUPPs, but only if registered and insured as a mechanically propelled vehicle (ie moped or motorcycle, depending on top speed). Use away from recognised rights of way would not be illegal, but is unlawful unless you have the landowner's permission. [It could be illegal is you cause damage, but on the basis of criminal damage law, not vehicle use]. Then there are police powers under anti-social vehicle use powers, but I don't know much (anything!) about those, so won't speculate.
So a 'not road-legal' Ebike is also not legal on other RoWs because the laws governing its classification for road use also apply on other rights of way. Just like an unregistered/untaxed/uninsured MX bike. Ride one on a byway and you could theoretically get a motoring conviction. But the chances of enforcement are, of course, negligible. I suspect that the only way users will get the message is if a few people get stung for high-value third party liability claims, leading to constabulary attention for driving without licence and/or insurance.
In theory, de-regulated Ebikes could be permissible at trail centres if the operator is happy. I'm not aware of any that do encourage it. And trail centres tend to be designed around slow-up, fast-down principles so >15mph capability seems pointless to me. That's not to say that an 'Ebike ascent route' couldn't be added, of course.
What's legal or not in the Dolomites is an open question... ;)
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I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.
Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?
On the road yes, not off road in the woods. I’ve seen e mtb on forest tracks in Dolomites and definitely not e pedalec compliant.
Off road legality gets complicated. My understanding is that under English law, anything capable of going faster than 15mph is a mechanically propelled vehicle and so can't be used on Bridleways, period. It could be legal on BOATs and RUPPs, but only if registered and insured as a mechanically propelled vehicle (ie moped or motorcycle, depending on top speed). Use away from recognised rights of way would not be illegal, but is unlawful unless you have the landowner's permission. [It could be illegal is you cause damage, but on the basis of criminal damage law, not vehicle use]. Then there are police powers under anti-social vehicle use powers, but I don't know much (anything!) about those, so won't speculate.
So a 'not road-legal' Ebike is also not legal on other RoWs because the laws governing its classification for road use also apply on other rights of way. Just like an unregistered/untaxed/uninsured MX bike. Ride one on a byway and you could theoretically get a motoring conviction. But the chances of enforcement are, of course, negligible. I suspect that the only way users will get the message is if a few people get stung for high-value third party liability claims, leading to constabulary attention for driving without licence and/or insurance.
In theory, de-regulated Ebikes could be permissible at trail centres if the operator is happy. I'm not aware of any that do encourage it. And trail centres tend to be designed around slow-up, fast-down principles so >15mph capability seems pointless to me. That's not to say that an 'Ebike ascent route' couldn't be added, of course.
What's legal or not in the Dolomites is an open question... ;)
Fixed that for you, the one nationists haven't managed to consolidate the 3 legal systems (yet)
What the situation is in Irish law I dunnoh.
Scots Law, basically they aren't legit under right to roam, so need land owners permission otherwise if the Polis catch you you'll see it hauled off to the crusher along with various other illegally used MX and trials bikes.
There's also differences in the definition of Road between Scots and English law for purposes of the RTA and also differences in where the RTA applies that isn't a road, which may trump land owner permission too.
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Off road legality gets complicated. My understanding is that under English law,...
Fixed that for you,
A fair point, and I apologise for lumping Scotland in with the rest. Spare a thought for those of us the right side of Offa's Dyke, though! ;)
(I speak as an incomer from the flatlands of the East Midlands)
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Having been sprayed with gravel and mud from my uncles's electric assist MTB's rear wheel spinning up climbs, I can definitely see the case that they cause more trail damage then pedal powered alone.
However, in terms of leading causes of PROW damage, I think they are still way down the list.
Byways get wrecked with deep triple ruts from 4x4's & MX bikes, making it difficult & unpleasant to walk/ride on all year round.
Bridleways get wrecked by constant hoof traffic. After a decent spell of good weather, you often get a nice smooth line down the edges THANKS to MTB's, but as soon as it rains, the equestrians seem to relish churning that up aswell.
It's good to have awareness and hold others in the community to account, but i fear this is akin to the urban e-scooters debate where many consider them to be an existential threat while ignoring the elephant in the room.
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Rather than the bickering among users, wouldn't the issue of erosion be better tackled by opening up more of the countryside for all?
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I'm all for e-bike racing - but the racers have to start with flat batteries. 30min before race start, they can start pedaling a charging system. Whatever they can put into the battery is what they have to race with. A bit like the Americas cup yacht race, where they have grunts grinding to create electrical power for the systems.
It would bring in a new level of tactics and bike type. Do you have a larger battery and try to store more power? Or a titchy lightweight battery and motor, only for use to give a boost up hills?
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Real bike racers turn up with nothing but a pile of iron ore and assorted rare earth metals.
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No, real bike racers start by riding to Zambia, or wherever their copper mine of choice is.
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I'm all for e-bike racing - but the racers have to start with flat batteries. 30min before race start, they can start pedaling a charging system. Whatever they can put into the battery is what they have to race with. A bit like the Americas cup yacht race, where they have grunts grinding to create electrical power for the systems.
It would bring in a new level of tactics and bike type. Do you have a larger battery and try to store more power? Or a titchy lightweight battery and motor, only for use to give a boost up hills?
I believe that the HPV racing community have experimented with storing energy in flywheels, and decided that on a race track it isn't worth the weight. The same would be true of electric energy storage.
I'm trying to persuade the BHPC to accept (road-legal, so as not to become an electron arms race) electric assist at our races, on the basis that would allow a) the disabled people who need it and b) people with HPVs that have an impractical-to-remove motor to take part. We've cleared the insurance hurdle, but Covid has stalled things, as we really need a proper AGM bun-fight to work out how the hell we classify them.
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I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.
Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?
On the road yes, not off road in the woods. I’ve seen e mtb on forest tracks in Dolomites and definitely not e pedalec compliant.
Off road legality gets complicated. My understanding is that under UK law, anything capable of going faster than 15mph is a mechanically propelled vehicle and so can't be used on Bridleways, period. It could be legal on BOATs and RUPPs, but only if registered and insured as a mechanically propelled vehicle (ie moped or motorcycle, depending on top speed). Use away from recognised rights of way would not be illegal, but is unlawful unless you have the landowner's permission. [It could be illegal is you cause damage, but on the basis of criminal damage law, not vehicle use]. Then there are police powers under anti-social vehicle use powers, but I don't know much (anything!) about those, so won't speculate.
So a 'not road-legal' Ebike is also not legal on other RoWs because the laws governing its classification for road use also apply on other rights of way. Just like an unregistered/untaxed/uninsured MX bike. Ride one on a byway and you could theoretically get a motoring conviction. But the chances of enforcement are, of course, negligible. I suspect that the only way users will get the message is if a few people get stung for high-value third party liability claims, leading to constabulary attention for driving without licence and/or insurance.
In theory, de-regulated Ebikes could be permissible at trail centres if the operator is happy. I'm not aware of any that do encourage it. And trail centres tend to be designed around slow-up, fast-down principles so >15mph capability seems pointless to me. That's not to say that an 'Ebike ascent route' couldn't be added, of course.
What's legal or not in the Dolomites is an open question... ;)
When I went down to my local cargobike, e-bike and anything else odd and non-racer shop the other day (to look for a frontrack for the folder) I was very surprised to see a lady with an e-bike, obviously very new, with a numberplate just like a moped. I didn't think to ask at the time (not my business, other customer etc etc) but I will have to ask when I go back. I am not up to speed with this pedalec stuff, french regs are evolving quite quickly just to deal with e-trottinettes. Cargobikes with 500W motors are just another thing requiring some sort of order in the chaos.
Racing e-bikes shouldn't pose a problem. Race them with the mopeds! 24h e-bike racing would probably advance the technology at quite a rate. Probably need to have formule libre with a machine value rule - a challenger has the right to buy the bike at the max permitted value; it cuts back the big budget stuff and gives everyone a chance to innovate.
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I'm all for e-bike racing - but the racers have to start with flat batteries. 30min before race start, they can start pedaling a charging system. Whatever they can put into the battery is what they have to race with. A bit like the Americas cup yacht race, where they have grunts grinding to create electrical power for the systems.
It would bring in a new level of tactics and bike type. Do you have a larger battery and try to store more power? Or a titchy lightweight battery and motor, only for use to give a boost up hills?
I believe that the HPV racing community have experimented with storing energy in flywheels, and decided that on a race track it isn't worth the weight. The same would be true of electric energy storage.
I'm trying to persuade the BHPC to accept (road-legal, so as not to become an electron arms race) electric assist at our races, on the basis that would allow a) the disabled people who need it and b) people with HPVs that have an impractical-to-remove motor to take part. We've cleared the insurance hurdle, but Covid has stalled things, as we really need a proper AGM bun-fight to work out how the hell we classify them.
E-MTBs are allowed in British Mountain Bike Orienteering events. They have their own separate class. They tend to be scored but not explicitly ranked - if that makes sense. The pedalling is only part of the event though...
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I'm all for e-bike racing - but the racers have to start with flat batteries. 30min before race start, they can start pedaling a charging system. Whatever they can put into the battery is what they have to race with. A bit like the Americas cup yacht race, where they have grunts grinding to create electrical power for the systems.
It would bring in a new level of tactics and bike type. Do you have a larger battery and try to store more power? Or a titchy lightweight battery and motor, only for use to give a boost up hills?
I believe that the HPV racing community have experimented with storing energy in flywheels, and decided that on a race track it isn't worth the weight. The same would be true of electric energy storage.
I'm trying to persuade the BHPC to accept (road-legal, so as not to become an electron arms race) electric assist at our races, on the basis that would allow a) the disabled people who need it and b) people with HPVs that have an impractical-to-remove motor to take part. We've cleared the insurance hurdle, but Covid has stalled things, as we really need a proper AGM bun-fight to work out how the hell we classify them.
E-MTBs are allowed in British Mountain Bike Orienteering events. They have their own separate class. They tend to be scored but not explicitly ranked - if that makes sense. The pedalling is only part of the event though...
Seems reasonable. In the HPV racing context the 25kph speed limiting means that on most tracks the top half of the field won't get any benefit beyond perhaps a less wobbly start. The slower riders have a lot to gain, but as an eclectic mixture of the unfit, young, disabled, Not Really Trying and riders of comedy bikes, I don't think many of them are going to be upset if someone else is faster. Of the remainder, I suspect the majority would be happy as long as it's clear who was using a motor in the results.
There was a surprising amount of support for allowing people with road-legal electric assist to participate when I mooted the idea at the AGM a couple of years ago. Chris Parker pointed out that about 50% of ICE trikes sales are now electric, and I think most people would be keen to include those riders in some way at our events.
I suspect what we'll end up doing is running a ghetto 'electric' class for a year or two, while we see how things go.
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My understanding is that under English law, anything capable of going faster than 15mph is a mechanically propelled vehicle and so can't be used on Bridleways, period.
It could be legal on BOATs and RUPPs, but only if registered and insured as a mechanically propelled vehicle (ie moped or motorcycle, depending on top speed).
Anything with a motor is a mechanically propelled vehicle, unless it's an e-bike that meets the rules (15 mph motor cut out, pedal to go rather than throttle, power limits). There's no new class of vehicle, but rather a rule that legal e-bikes are pedal cycles.
There's no such thing as RUPPs any more (since 2006). They are mostly restricted byways now, which are like bridleways, but also permit "any vehicles other than mechanically propelled vehicles" (e.g. horse & cart).
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Bikes of any kind make tyre ruts enabling water to run down the hill. Apparently the stream also takes soil and so the erosion is increased. Footprints of walkers are bad enough of course. I read that there is a 45 minute queue for the summit of Mount Snowdon :o
Example of what can happen. At the top it was a regular 4x4 wheel rut, only 2-3" deep.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/s/9xoba1bcdom5l81/tyn-y-corneltrack_zps2b55c8ee.jpg?dl=0)
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When I went down to my local cargobike, e-bike and anything else odd and non-racer shop the other day (to look for a frontrack for the folder) I was very surprised to see a lady with an e-bike, obviously very new, with a numberplate just like a moped. I didn't think to ask at the time (not my business, other customer etc etc) but I will have to ask when I go back. I am not up to speed with this pedalec stuff, french regs are evolving quite quickly just to deal with e-trottinettes. Cargobikes with 500W motors are just another thing requiring some sort of order in the chaos.
A mate lives in NL and tells me there are 2x grades of e-bike, defined by the assistance speed cut-off. I think the top one is something like 45kph, for which you are required to have a reg plate, indicators and wear a helmet.
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When I went down to my local cargobike, e-bike and anything else odd and non-racer shop the other day (to look for a frontrack for the folder) I was very surprised to see a lady with an e-bike, obviously very new, with a numberplate just like a moped. I didn't think to ask at the time (not my business, other customer etc etc) but I will have to ask when I go back. I am not up to speed with this pedalec stuff, french regs are evolving quite quickly just to deal with e-trottinettes. Cargobikes with 500W motors are just another thing requiring some sort of order in the chaos.
A mate lives in NL and tells me there are 2x grades of e-bike, defined by the assistance speed cut-off. I think the top one is something like 45kph, for which you are required to have a reg plate, indicators and wear a helmet.
Yep. Speed pedelec. They are basically a moped in all but name. They aren't allowed in some cycle infrastructure. great for interurban travel.
J
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Example of what can happen. At the top it was a regular 4x4 wheel rut, only 2-3" deep.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/s/9xoba1bcdom5l81/tyn-y-corneltrack_zps2b55c8ee.jpg?dl=0)
If that is what water can do then water should be more carefully regulated. With allowances for 'good' water, of course.
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I am currently in Molveno in Dolomites and I would say most people (other than the competitors for the event I am here for today) are on e-mtbs. The fun and skilled part is the technical descents. For 10 minutes of descent you can spend 40 minutes of tedious slog or 15 minutes by ebike. Most seem to be economising their power usage to maximise battery life. If I were here longer I might consider hiring one as I could spend more time improving my descending (also allowing some sweaty protective gear). Getting better at the uphill can mainly be achieved on wattbike in the gym and/or eating fewer pies.
Regarding people using unregistered motorbikes (‘chipped’ ebikes or other) on bridleways over private land, just because there is no right to do this is it illegal ? (I.e. criminal) If done without permission isn’t this a civil matter with the landowner.
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I am currently in Molveno in Dolomites and I would say most people (other than the competitors for the event I am here for today) are on e-mtbs. The fun and skilled part is the technical descents. For 10 minutes of descent you can spend 40 minutes of tedious slog or 15 minutes by ebike. Most seem to be economising their power usage to maximise battery life. If I were here longer I might consider hiring one as I could spend more time improving my descending (also allowing some sweaty protective gear). Getting better at the uphill can mainly be achieved on wattbike in the gym and/or eating fewer pies.
That rather depends on the individual. Personally, I enjoy a challenging technical ascent (not least because it hurts less when it all goes pear-shaped!). I certainly take the point in situations where the ascents are a gravel grind, though.
Regarding people using unregistered motorbikes (‘chipped’ ebikes or other) on bridleways over private land, just because there is no right to do this is it illegal ? (I.e. criminal) If done without permission isn’t this a civil matter with the landowner.
The thing is that they're motorbikes. So use on private land is ok with the landowner's permission. But on a RoW you're driving an unregistered vehicle, without VED, licence or insurance. All of which are criminal offences.