Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => OT Knowledge => Topic started by: andyoxon on 10 October, 2021, 04:58:32 pm

Title: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: andyoxon on 10 October, 2021, 04:58:32 pm
Any pearls of energy saving wisdom to impart, esp given current situation?

Only boil water you need.
I've been a bit a bit poor at only boiling water I need of late, so am currently prefilling the container that the boiling water is for, with cold water, then adding it to the kettle to boil only that required.
Fortunately the kettle has a side window, with gradations down to 1 cup.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Lightning Phil on 10 October, 2021, 05:06:59 pm
Blanket throw for your favourite chair / sofa. A good jumper / fleece to put on. Have any central heating turn off at least 1.5 hours before you go to bed. Turn down central thermostat by 1C or more.  Turn down valves on radiators in rooms you are not in. Long curtains to help retain heat. Close doors to retain warmth in rooms you are in.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Polar Bear on 10 October, 2021, 05:35:12 pm
Turn lights off in rooms that you are not in and also superfluous outdoor lighting.

Queue up your oven cooking and baking to make best use of the oven.

Make a flask of hot brown liquid of choice when you make a cuppa next time to save on a second boil an hour later.

Put on a fleece / jumper instead of turning the heating on or to allow you to turn the heating down a degree or two.

Turn the rads down to a low / frost setting in rooms where you infrequently go.

Close doors.

A friend of mine used to close off the front rooms in his house in the winter and live in the back rooms only.  He has since moved to a much smaller bungalow.

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Wowbagger on 10 October, 2021, 05:50:35 pm
I have just read the meter. I still don't understand why Ecotricity want me to do this as we have had a smart meter for a couple of years now.

However, the gas reading was exactly the same as the last time the meter was read. This precipitated an inquisition from the website.

"This is the same reading as last time. Are you sure it's right?"

"Yes."

"Please select from the following reasons."

"Other."

then a space for an explanation.

"We haven't used any gas."

I'm currently in credit to the tune of £600 or so. I don't think there's an option to buy my units at today's price so that I don't have to pay the price increase until later.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: grams on 10 October, 2021, 06:39:34 pm
Only boil water you need.
I've been a bit a bit poor at only boiling water I need of late, so am currently prefilling the container that the boiling water is for, with cold water, then adding it to the kettle to boil only that required.
Fortunately the kettle has a side window, with gradations down to 1 cup.

A hotel room style 750W kettle will help greatly with this.

Not because it uses less energy, because it doesn’t, but because it makes you weight for-chuffing-ever if you casually overfill it.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 10 October, 2021, 06:52:23 pm
If you've got a damp house get a dehumidifier. Despite what the thermometer says you'll feel warmer in less damp air of the same temperature.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Lightning Phil on 10 October, 2021, 07:03:06 pm
Queue up your oven cooking and baking to make best use of the oven.

You could do the same with hot water: all bath, shower and do the washing up around the same time to save heating the water for a long time or multiple times each day.

A couple of years ago I cut our lighting running costs by 94% by replacing all our 60w bulbs with LED bulbs.

Nana used to do that with tin bath in front of coal fire.  Mum, dad, kids all using the same bath water in front of fire before it cooled down.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: rafletcher on 10 October, 2021, 07:12:52 pm
Queue up your oven cooking and baking to make best use of the oven.

You could do the same with hot water: all bath, shower and do the washing up around the same time to save heating the water for a long time or multiple times each day.

A couple of years ago I cut our lighting running costs by 94% by replacing all our 60w bulbs with LED bulbs.

Nana used to do that with tin bath in front of coal fire.  Mum, dad, kids all using the same bath water in front of fire before it cooled down.

Yep, but then it was a pain in the fundaments to heat the water on the stove in the first place, so you only wanted to do it once.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: hubner on 10 October, 2021, 07:36:59 pm
Do the washing up with cold water. Soak the dishes first, then rinse off.

Yeah also wash your hands in cold water.

Quote
Queue up your oven cooking and baking to make best use of the oven.

I would say don't use the oven, as it seems to me it uses a lot of fuel compared to other methods of cooking.

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 10 October, 2021, 07:50:56 pm
Do the washing up with cold water. Soak the dishes first, then rinse off.


I had to do this a couple of months ago when we were without a boiler for about 10 days. It was horrible - things just didn't seem to get as clean, and I ended up using more washing-up liquid to compensate. I won't be doing it by choice in a hurry.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 10 October, 2021, 08:21:53 pm
Yeah also wash your hands in cold water.

I'm probably washing my hands about 5 times more than usual on account of caring for barakta.  They're dry and cracked, like after a week of camping.  If the water were any colder they'd be bleeding raw.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 10 October, 2021, 08:24:04 pm
Oven cooking is less efficient than a microwave but the excess energy is heat, inside your house. That offsets against additional central heating, to some extent.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Paul H on 10 October, 2021, 08:27:23 pm
Get a good understanding of what you're using, when and where.
Don't open fridges and freezers more often than needed and keep them reasonably full.
Always wash a full load, get a spinner, then air dry unless that's impossible.
Batch cook meals.
Know how warm you need to be for comfort rather than habit, but don't let your home get so cold it costs a fortune to bring it back up to a reasonable temperature.

I've never had running hot water other than from an electric shower. I use that in the bathroom and have two kettles in the kitchen,  Either I've lived places where there wasn't the option, or that option has been a crappy emersion heater. I might do otherwise if the option was an efficient combi boiler, but I've never missed what I've never had.
If you haven't already, get a night tariff and do as much as practical at the lower rate.
My energy bill for a small two bedroom flat is £24 a month and I'm well in credit  ;)  Though I've had my meter checked twice on the pretext there might be a fault, but they're obviously looking to see if it's been tampered with.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Polar Bear on 10 October, 2021, 08:34:25 pm
Oven cooking os less efficient than a microwave but the excess energy is heat, inside your house. That offsets against additional central heating, to some extent.

In defence of the humble oven:

I can get significantly more into my gas oven than I can a microwave oven, and,

We do not own a microwave.

I don't know what a decent microwave costs but regardless, I have no realistic idea of how long it would take to recoup the cost in energy use terms.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 10 October, 2021, 08:36:01 pm
I'm not sure anyone's made a decent microwave this century.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Polar Bear on 10 October, 2021, 08:47:43 pm
In that case I can resist the lure of the poppity ping with a clear conscience.  😉
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: nikki on 10 October, 2021, 08:48:16 pm
I find it's not much fun below about 12C. I've been known to pull up a stool in front of the open door of a recently-used oven before.

Also wintering in one room so as not to heat the others. (One oil radiator per room, one with a working dial, the other without. Made an arduino-controlled thermostat to hold the room I was in at a specified temperature with the busted radiatior and used the working radiator on the frost setting to stop the other room from getting too too cold.)

Thick socks and fingerless gloves in a Dickensian clerk stylee.



Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Lightning Phil on 10 October, 2021, 08:53:30 pm
Queue up your oven cooking and baking to make best use of the oven.

You could do the same with hot water: all bath, shower and do the washing up around the same time to save heating the water for a long time or multiple times each day.

A couple of years ago I cut our lighting running costs by 94% by replacing all our 60w bulbs with LED bulbs.

Nana used to do that with tin bath in front of coal fire.  Mum, dad, kids all using the same bath water in front of fire before it cooled down.

Yep, but then it was a pain in the fundaments to heat the water on the stove in the first place, so you only wanted to do it once.

There was a back boiler connected to the fire by a long iron rod that reached down into the fire.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 10 October, 2021, 08:54:44 pm
Also wintering in one room so as not to heat the others.

This.  I reckon barakta and I (normally) save a huge amount of energy by mostly living upstairs, rather than trying to heat downstairs to a reasonable level.  Especially since the gas heater in the front room got condemned.

I reckon the biggest energy saving I could make would be to cycle (and therefore wash) less.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: rogerzilla on 10 October, 2021, 09:01:24 pm
Use free solar heat on sunny winter days by opening doors to sunny rooms.  If you have a conservatory in full sun, this can heat the whole house.

If you have a wood burner, you have probably learnt the art of scavenging free wood already (always loads free on Facebook Marketplace, although unlikely to be ready to burn this year).  My top tip is that leylandii is a pretty good wood burner fuel and totally useless for anything else, so people are often looking to get rid of it.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Feanor on 10 October, 2021, 09:06:42 pm
I would say don't use the oven, as it seems to me it uses a lot of fuel compared to other methods of cooking.

That's pretty hair-shirt, even by the standards of this thread.
Making bread over a hotel-issue milliwatt iron is going to be somewhat challenging.

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 10 October, 2021, 09:24:07 pm
Be careful you don't end up chasing the marginal gains. Turning lights off, great idea. It does save energy. But, emotional health can be improved by being in a well lit space. A typical LED light bulb these days is about 9w. You need to have that bulb on for over 111 hours for it to cost you 1KwH. Not stubbing my toe in the hallway (light switch is far end of it, and only one end), is worth having the light on for. The same with the whole "Make sure you switch your TV off completely, not just on standby". EU law requires that devices like TV's consume 1W or less on standby. That's gonna take you almost 42 days for it to use 1kwh. Worth it for the improvement in quality of life of being able to turn the tele on from under your warm blanket...

So, rather than worrying about marginal gains, look at the big things.

Don't use a tumble drier. Unless you absolutely need to have your clothes dry in a couple of hours, just hang them up, outside if it's dry, inside if not. This should save in the region of 4-5kwh per cycle. Depending on how often you use your tumble drier, that can add up. Certainly faster than turning off lights, switching the tv off at the wall, or faffing about measuring only the amount of water you need for your tea.

Check for drafts. The highest standards of energy efficiency basically require your home to be a sealed box. With very little air exchange. Pretty much every home not built to these standards is going to be a drafty mess. But you can greatly improve things by those draft excludy strips along doors, checking windows etc... If you can keep the exchange of warm air indoors, with cold air out, to a minimum, you'll improve things a lot. A good pair of curtains can really help to reduce losses at the windows.

It can be a good idea to get heat exchanging vents tho, these can recover about 90% of the energy from the air they vent out, while warming the air that comes in, all for about 10-30w of energy.

It's very hard in a typical British home to be more energy efficient than most people already are, without drastically impinging on your quality of life, or without spending a lot of money on new things. Most of the common advice people give for energy saving is going to save pennies when multiplied out to a whole year. Even the thing with boiling only the water you need is very much in marginal gains territory. It takes about 0.046kwh to boil 500ml of water, and 0.091kwh to boil 1l of water. If every time you want to make 0.5l of tea, you boiled 1l instead, you'd need to do that nearly 22 times to cost an extra 1kwh. (exact numbers may vary depending on efficiency of your kettle). But. If you boil an extra 0.5l of water, you're not pouring it down the drain after you've made your tea, it sits in the kettle to be reboiled the next time (after you've topped it up again no doubt). As that water cools, the energy from that water is going to dissipate into the local environment. It's going to warm your kitchen a little. It's a marginal gain, for a lot of extra faff when you just want a cup of tea. Obviously if you drink a lot of tea every day, that may have a more significant impact over the whole year. The UK tea and infusions association[1] says the Brits drink 100000000 cups of tea a day, that's less than 1.5 cups per person per day. So that 22 cups of tea is going to work out at an extra 1kwh every 2 weeks, or 26kwh over the year. Or about a fiver...

J

[1] yeah, I was surprised by that one too...
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 10 October, 2021, 09:27:56 pm
I would say don't use the oven, as it seems to me it uses a lot of fuel compared to other methods of cooking.

That's pretty hair-shirt, even by the standards of this thread.
Making bread over a hotel-issue milliwatt iron is going to be somewhat challenging.

And it's misguided. Running the oven for an hour, is about 2.5kwh of energy (based on googling how much energy does an oven use). Which if the oven was out in the garden, would result in 2.5Kwh of energy lost to atmosphere, plus dinner. But your oven is in the kitchen, so running the oven for an hour puts 2.5kwh of energy into the kitchen in the form of warmth. And produces dinner. Saving you the need for 2.5kwh of heating in that room. It's a win win.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: orienteer on 10 October, 2021, 09:35:03 pm
Probably doesn't apply to most on here, but I reckon the nation as a whole could save a lot of energy by not waiting for the safety cut-out on electric kettles when making tea and coffee. The water is boiling long before the cut-out triggers, and coffee is best brewed with the water at less than 100C anyway.

Every time I've had work done on the house, a chalet bungalow (1925) with non-cavity walls, I've included as much additional insulation as reasonably practicable. My next move is to fit closable grilles over the open ones which keep the underfloor area ventilated to prevent rotting of the rafters. When a westerly wind blows I can feel cold draughts in the kitchen as the air finds its way through inaccessible gaps. Selectively closing the grilles will reduce this without causing rot problems.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 10 October, 2021, 09:46:45 pm
Probably doesn't apply to most on here, but I reckon the nation as a whole could save a lot of energy by not waiting for the safety cut-out on electric kettles when making tea and coffee. The water is boiling long before the cut-out triggers, and coffee is best brewed with the water at less than 100C anyway.

Not really. If your 2kwh kettle was on for 1 minute longer than needed per boil, it would take 30 boils before it cost you 1kwh. Assuming the average of 1.5 mugs of tea a day, and one boil for each. That's gonna take you 20 days to cost 1kwh. Not exactly big savings...

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 10 October, 2021, 10:04:10 pm
Assuming the average of 1.5 mugs of tea a day ...

I would just like to apologise to the three people who don't get to drink tea on account of me being a 6 cups a day person; I am drinking their portions.

That's how averages work...

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Paul H on 10 October, 2021, 10:05:55 pm
Saving you the need for 2.5kwh of heating in that room. It's a win win.

J
Except that for most of the year my kitchen doesn't need that heating. YKMV.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 10 October, 2021, 10:17:50 pm

It can be a good idea to get heat exchanging vents tho, these can recover about 90% of the energy from the air they vent out, while warming the air that comes in, all for about 10-30w of energy.

I was just asking about them here https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=118342.msg2664547#msg2664547
Interested to know about real world experience before I go fitting a bog std extractor.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Canardly on 10 October, 2021, 10:23:23 pm
Dig out the pressure cooker from the back of the cupboard.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: SoreTween on 10 October, 2021, 10:51:11 pm
QGs figure for a tumbler cycle seems awfully high. Maybe a straight through the wall heat blower type might have used that. Our recently deceased (2005-2020, RIP) vanilla condenser didn't, the replacement is even better.

To the OP, get a smart meter or plug in watt meter & go power hog hunting. My desktop turned out to use 180 watts :o.  I used to just leave it on because a) I didn't realise and b) heat cycles kill electronics. Turning that off 14 hours a night plus a few other surprises has reduced us from .75kwh/h average to ~.52kwh/h. That adds up fast 24/365.

I suspect our freezer is the next hog for the chop.

Thermostat at 19 degrees helps a lot but it is tough at this time of year adjusting to the lower ambient around the house.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: rogerzilla on 11 October, 2021, 06:59:37 am
Tumble dryers are neither here nor there in terms of impact on the overall bill.  Two 50 minute cycles a week in winter, always on half heat, is 1.25 units, or less than 20p.  The alternative is a mouldy house.  I hang stuff out in better weather.

Beware of vented vs condenser comparisons: the energy efficiency ratings are on a different scale and not comparable.  A B-rated vented dryer is better than a B-rated condenser dryer, and a vented dryer is more efficient than a condenser dryer unless the latter is a heat pump type. Personally, I'd never have a condenser dryer because they're not as reliable.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: robgul on 11 October, 2021, 07:46:17 am
QGs figure for a tumbler cycle seems awfully high. Maybe a straight through the wall heat blower type might have used that. Our recently deceased (2005-2020, RIP) vanilla condenser didn't, the replacement is even better.

To the OP, get a smart meter or plug in watt meter & go power hog hunting. My desktop turned out to use 180 watts :o.  I used to just leave it on because a) I didn't realise and b) heat cycles kill electronics. Turning that off 14 hours a night plus a few other surprises has reduced us from .75kwh/h average to ~.52kwh/h. That adds up fast 24/365.

I suspect our freezer is the next hog for the chop.

Thermostat at 19 degrees helps a lot but it is tough at this time of year adjusting to the lower ambient around the house.

Our No2 freezer (allotment produce for the use of) is on its last legs (vintage about 1982, was father-in-law's until he died in 2019) - executive decision made by Mrs robgul and a new will be delivered from Mr Lewis's emprium on Weds - the power consumption is, allegedly, about 75% less?  Every little helps.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 October, 2021, 11:47:19 am
Yeah also wash your hands in cold water.

I'm probably washing my hands about 5 times more than usual on account of caring for barakta.  They're dry and cracked, like after a week of camping.  If the water were any colder they'd be bleeding raw.
What sort of soap are you using? Posh hippy soap, eg the stuff made out of olive oil ttps://www.hollandandbarrett.com/shop/product/oliva-pure-olive-oil-soap-60038772 is more expensive than supermarket soap (especially if you buy it at Holland and Barrett) but a lot less drying to skin. Faith in Nature is another nice one.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: orienteer on 11 October, 2021, 12:00:33 pm
Probably doesn't apply to most on here, but I reckon the nation as a whole could save a lot of energy by not waiting for the safety cut-out on electric kettles when making tea and coffee. The water is boiling long before the cut-out triggers, and coffee is best brewed with the water at less than 100C anyway.

Not really. If your 2kwh kettle was on for 1 minute longer than needed per boil, it would take 30 boils before it cost you 1kwh. Assuming the average of 1.5 mugs of tea a day, and one boil for each. That's gonna take you 20 days to cost 1kwh. Not exactly big savings...

J


I did say the nation would save a lot of energy, not individuals.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 11 October, 2021, 12:22:33 pm

I did say the nation would save a lot of energy, not individuals.

If the 2KW kettle is on for 1 min extra per cup, for 100m cups per day, that's 3.3MWh per day. That's a good size wind turbine at max output for one hour.

Given the at the time of writing UK demand is 34.3GW. It's basically insignificant. Average daily usage for the UK is 287.58TWh, so that 3.3MWh each day works out as 0.0000000115% of the UK's total energy use for a day. That's a rounding error.

Remember, a tiny number multiplied by a big number just gets a middling number (See Hubble-Barn as unit of measure). 3.3MWh may seem like a lot to you as an individual, but on the scale of a nation, it's two thirds of bugger all.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 October, 2021, 12:41:12 pm
Live with a large number of people in a small space.

Live in a tower block, preferably not on the ground or first floors.

Live in a mid-terrace.

Don't skimp on two hot meals a day.

Forget superstition, wear a hat indoors.

Move as much as possible.

Don't use labour saving devices. Doing housework manually keeps you warm.

Hot water bottles, blankets and mega-duvets.

That down jacket you bought for chilly evenings when camping can also be worn indoors.

Invite everyone you know for a party.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ppg on 11 October, 2021, 12:48:45 pm
The alternative is a mouldy house
Not a healthy environment plus a damp house feels colder, so may need more heating for comfortable living.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: rogerzilla on 11 October, 2021, 01:37:37 pm
Live with a large number of people in a small space.

Live in a tower block, preferably not on the ground or first floors.

Live in a mid-terrace.

Don't skimp on two hot meals a day.

Forget superstition, wear a hat indoors.

Move as much as possible.

Don't use labour saving devices. Doing housework manually keeps you warm.

Hot water bottles, blankets and mega-duvets.

That down jacket you bought for chilly evenings when camping can also be worn indoors.

Invite everyone you know for a party.
"Be rich" works instead of all the above.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Quisling on 11 October, 2021, 02:03:50 pm
We do not own a microwave.

I don't know what a decent microwave costs but regardless, I have no realistic idea of how long it would take to recoup the cost in energy use terms.

I've had several microwaves over the years but never purchased a new one.  There's always been someone's grandparent has popped their clogs desperately trying to clear their house out offering one cheap.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Quisling on 11 October, 2021, 02:07:08 pm
Old fridges and chest freezers eat tonnes of elastictrickery.  When we replaced our old small chest freezer with an A+ rated upright of similar volume it reduced power usage (for freezing) by ~80%. 

If you've done the full LED upgrade of lighting, refrigeration is probably your next biggest load unless you have several CRT teles and a stack of servers.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: BFC on 11 October, 2021, 03:04:06 pm
Yeah also wash your hands in cold water.

I'm probably washing my hands about 5 times more than usual on account of caring for barakta.  They're dry and cracked, like after a week of camping.  If the water were any colder they'd be bleeding raw.
An unusual source for an all natural hand cleaner that takes on bike maintenance filth, dissolves adheshive label glue, leaves hands moisturised (aloe vera, johoba and lanolin), and smells of citrus oil. Loctite SF 7850 by Henkel. Works with or without water, works like a barrier cream if used before starting work on the filthy bits of bikes. Citrus oil is the active cleanser/glue dissolver.
Does leave a fine wood pulp like residue all over the sink though, but easily wiped off.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 11 October, 2021, 05:47:29 pm
If you've done the full LED upgrade of lighting

I'm pretty sure some of the what look like standard pendant light bulbs are halogens, so I need to get them swapped out.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 October, 2021, 06:00:31 pm
Live with a large number of people in a small space.

Live in a tower block, preferably not on the ground or first floors.

Live in a mid-terrace.

Don't skimp on two hot meals a day.

Forget superstition, wear a hat indoors.

Move as much as possible.

Don't use labour saving devices. Doing housework manually keeps you warm.

Hot water bottles, blankets and mega-duvets.

That down jacket you bought for chilly evenings when camping can also be worn indoors.

Invite everyone you know for a party.
"Be rich" works instead of all the above.
"Be rich" works to keep you cosy and not be troubled by the bills, but it doesn't save energy unless you invest it in insulation.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 11 October, 2021, 07:18:59 pm

"Be rich" works to keep you cosy and not be troubled by the bills, but it doesn't save energy unless you invest it in insulation.

Being rich means you can have appliances that are newer and more energy efficient.

Being rich means your home can be better maintained with Fewer drafts and less damp.

Being rich means you can own your home, so you can choose more efficient heating.

Being rich means you can own your own home so you can install proper insulation.

Being rich means you can cook a proper healthy filling meal.

Being rich means you can afford a better blanket that doesn't get too smelly too fast.

Being rich means you can afford a jumper that isn't made of horrible acrylic that seems to go from fresh out the laundry to teenagers sports bag odour within 30 mins of wear.

Being rich makes everything so much fucking easier.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Diver300 on 11 October, 2021, 07:29:33 pm

I did say the nation would save a lot of energy, not individuals.

If the 2KW kettle is on for 1 min extra per cup, for 100m cups per day, that's 3.3MWh per day. That's a good size wind turbine at max output for one hour.

Given the at the time of writing UK demand is 34.3GW. It's basically insignificant. Average daily usage for the UK is 287.58TWh, so that 3.3MWh each day works out as 0.0000000115% of the UK's total energy use for a day. That's a rounding error.

Remember, a tiny number multiplied by a big number just gets a middling number (See Hubble-Barn as unit of measure). 3.3MWh may seem like a lot to you as an individual, but on the scale of a nation, it's two thirds of bugger all.

J
I agree that the over-run of kettles is insignificant, but you've got a the daily figure wrong. Average use in the UK is around 30 GW, which is around what you said, but that comes to 720 GWh per day, not hundreds of TWh. 3.3 MWh agrees with 100 M cups / 1 minute / 2 kW, and that comes to about 0.00045%

A much bigger load is the standby consumption of stuff. An alternative to a kettle is a boiling water tap, but they use 10 - 30 W on average without any hot water being dispensed. That is 0.24 to 0.72 kWh per day, or 7 to 21 minutes of a 2 kW kettle per day.

Lots of electronic devices take 1 W or so when doing nothing, and many houses have multiple items like that.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mr Larrington on 11 October, 2021, 08:01:53 pm

"Be rich" works to keep you cosy and not be troubled by the bills, but it doesn't save energy unless you invest it in insulation.

Being rich means you can have appliances that are newer and more energy efficient.

Being rich means your home can be better maintained with Fewer drafts and less damp.

Being rich means you can own your home, so you can choose more efficient heating.

Being rich means you can own your own home so you can install proper insulation.

Being rich means you can cook a proper healthy filling meal.

Being rich means you can afford a better blanket that doesn't get too smelly too fast.

Being rich means you can afford a jumper that isn't made of horrible acrylic that seems to go from fresh out the laundry to teenagers sports bag odour within 30 mins of wear.

Being rich makes everything so much fucking easier.

And being rich means you can move somewhere warmer…
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: cygnet on 11 October, 2021, 08:17:13 pm

"Be rich" works to keep you cosy and not be troubled by the bills, but it doesn't save energy unless you invest it in insulation.

Being rich means you can have appliances that are newer and more energy efficient.

Being rich means your home can be better maintained with Fewer drafts and less damp.

Being rich means you can own your home, so you can choose more efficient heating.

Being rich means you can own your own home so you can install proper insulation.

Being rich means you can cook a proper healthy filling meal.

Being rich means you can afford a better blanket that doesn't get too smelly too fast.

Being rich means you can afford a jumper that isn't made of horrible acrylic that seems to go from fresh out the laundry to teenagers sports bag odour within 30 mins of wear.

Being rich makes everything so much fucking easier.

J
AKA Samuel Vimes' Boots Theory, by pterry
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: rogerzilla on 11 October, 2021, 08:35:19 pm
To quote Melody Maker from decades ago:

Remember, kids, money doesn't make you happy. 

Big houses, swimming pools, fast cars and endless groupies make you happy.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: fruitcake on 11 October, 2021, 08:47:18 pm
Merino base layers are bloody marvellous. As are merino jumpers. They might cost upwards of £60 a piece but you're getting comfort in low temperatures. And you take that comfort with you when you go outdoors.

I think a big part of the solution for many people is 'more suitable clothing'.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Wowbagger on 11 October, 2021, 08:49:50 pm
I just checked the temperature of our water tank: 41°C. That's purely from sunshine, and fairly unusual for this late in the autumn. I shall have a solar-heated shower before I get into bed. It will probably be February before I have another... ;)
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 12 October, 2021, 12:17:22 am
I agree that the over-run of kettles is insignificant, but you've got a the daily figure wrong. Average use in the UK is around 30 GW, which is around what you said, but that comes to 720 GWh per day, not hundreds of TWh. 3.3 MWh agrees with 100 M cups / 1 minute / 2 kW, and that comes to about 0.00045%

A much bigger load is the standby consumption of stuff. An alternative to a kettle is a boiling water tap, but they use 10 - 30 W on average without any hot water being dispensed. That is 0.24 to 0.72 kWh per day, or 7 to 21 minutes of a 2 kW kettle per day.

Lots of electronic devices take 1 W or so when doing nothing, and many houses have multiple items like that.

Yep, I realised that a couple of hours after posting. I used the annual number, rather than the day number. And if we then do that maths...

287.58/365
= 0.787890411

so 787.89GWh per day total.

Making 3.3MWh each day two thirds of fuck all...

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: De Sisti on 12 October, 2021, 05:57:28 am
Don't use a tumble drier. Unless you absolutely need to have your clothes dry in a couple of hours, just hang them up, outside if it's dry, inside if not.
I put my washing out just before 9:00 am yesterday morning in a south-facing garden.
There were very light winds and some broken sunshine. When I retrieved them at 7:00pm
they were still slightly damp. At this time of the year I'll be using the tumble dryer.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 12 October, 2021, 07:44:42 am
People who just heat part of their houses: don't you get horrendous damp? ??? Even with a dehumidifier, I can't imagine doing that (admittedly, I live in a wet climate and have to dry all my washing indoors as no garden or tumble drier).
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: rogerzilla on 12 October, 2021, 07:56:36 am
It is true that you need heating to drive off damp as much as for warmth.  The intermittently-used bedrooms here stay dry, though, so there is probably enough heat soak from other rooms.

I never feel the cold for the first two hours after getting up, so I never have the heating on a timer.  I can get up, light a fire, and the house is warm by the time my Ready Brek glow has faded.  I am lucky with the layout of this house in that one 5.5kW stove heats the whole place, as the stairs come off the lounge.  It also distributes the heat ideally, with cooler bedrooms and the warmest place being the living room.  Insulation is pretty good: there is a porch and a conservatory, meaning no outside doors directly into the house, double glazing (old) and wall and loft insulation to more or less current standards.  Most windows face south.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ian on 12 October, 2021, 09:53:08 am
I agree that the over-run of kettles is insignificant, but you've got a the daily figure wrong. Average use in the UK is around 30 GW, which is around what you said, but that comes to 720 GWh per day, not hundreds of TWh. 3.3 MWh agrees with 100 M cups / 1 minute / 2 kW, and that comes to about 0.00045%

A much bigger load is the standby consumption of stuff. An alternative to a kettle is a boiling water tap, but they use 10 - 30 W on average without any hot water being dispensed. That is 0.24 to 0.72 kWh per day, or 7 to 21 minutes of a 2 kW kettle per day.

Lots of electronic devices take 1 W or so when doing nothing, and many houses have multiple items like that.

Yep, I realised that a couple of hours after posting. I used the annual number, rather than the day number. And if we then do that maths...

287.58/365
= 0.787890411

so 787.89GWh per day total.

Making 3.3MWh each day two thirds of fuck all...


Using this logic, since all individual items is relatively small usage, people may as well do nothing other than cut back on their home aluminium smelting.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 October, 2021, 10:04:54 am
To quote Melody Maker from decades ago:

Remember, kids, money doesn't make you happy. 

Big houses, swimming pools, fast cars and endless groupies make you happy.
And that!

(Was it Melody Maker? Not a quote from Damon Albarn or someone?)

But in terms of energy usage, just as with consumption of stuff, the richer you are the more you tend to use. Energy efficiency might be another tale.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 12 October, 2021, 12:31:08 pm
Merino base layers are bloody marvellous. As are merino jumpers. They might cost upwards of £60 a piece but you're getting for comfort in low temperatures. And you take that comfort with you when you go outdoors.

See QGs "being rich" post, although I'd argue most of it is actually "comfortably off" rather than "rich" but that may be a perception difference as to what rich is.

It's like bog roll; if you can buy 1 for a quid, or 20 for a fiver, having the extra 4 quid and storage space for 19 bog rolls means you can benefit from the savings.
You can also stack them up to block out a draught while waiting for a tradesman to come along and sort your draught problem.

Don't use a tumble drier. Unless you absolutely need to have your clothes dry in a couple of hours, just hang them up, outside if it's dry, inside if not.
I put my washing out just before 9:00 am yesterday morning in a south-facing garden.
There were very light winds and some broken sunshine. When I retrieved them at 7:00pm
they were still slightly damp. At this time of the year I'll be using the tumble dryer.

I accidentally put the washing machine on the eco settings, so it took 4 hours to do the towels instead of 1; by the time they were on the line for a bit of wind blow it was getting dark and they still needed 2 hours in the heat pump condensing dryer (see bit about having access to more efficient kit via having access to money/credit) still needed a decent while to dry them.  ON the plus side that heats the room it's in quite well, on the down side the room it's in is a sun porch and therefore although it rose the temperature from 5c to 10c I had to have the leccy heater on in there to get the thing up to operating temperature first and it all promptly buggered off through the windows (the roof was insulated by previous owners)
(see the above in context of not having enough money left to build a proper utility room)

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 October, 2021, 12:59:00 pm
The other thing about tumble dryers is that they are a good alternative to wearing wet clothes.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Diver300 on 12 October, 2021, 05:31:07 pm
I agree that the over-run of kettles is insignificant, but you've got a the daily figure wrong. Average use in the UK is around 30 GW, which is around what you said, but that comes to 720 GWh per day, not hundreds of TWh. 3.3 MWh agrees with 100 M cups / 1 minute / 2 kW, and that comes to about 0.00045%

A much bigger load is the standby consumption of stuff. An alternative to a kettle is a boiling water tap, but they use 10 - 30 W on average without any hot water being dispensed. That is 0.24 to 0.72 kWh per day, or 7 to 21 minutes of a 2 kW kettle per day.

Lots of electronic devices take 1 W or so when doing nothing, and many houses have multiple items like that.

Yep, I realised that a couple of hours after posting. I used the annual number, rather than the day number. And if we then do that maths...

287.58/365
= 0.787890411

so 787.89GWh per day total.

Making 3.3MWh each day two thirds of fuck all...


Using this logic, since all individual items is relatively small usage, people may as well do nothing other than cut back on their home aluminium smelting.
I don't think that follows, but it's always worth looking at what actually saves power.

1 minute at 2 kW, maybe 4 times a day is an average of 5.5 W. There may well be lots of other things averaging more than that in a house. An incandescent bulb for a couple of hours will use that much.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 12 October, 2021, 06:31:03 pm
I don't think that follows, but it's always worth looking at what actually saves power.

1 minute at 2 kW, maybe 4 times a day is an average of 5.5 W. There may well be lots of other things averaging more than that in a house. An incandescent bulb for a couple of hours will use that much.

Right, so you have 10 devices in your house, where you manage to save 5.5w per day. Thats 55w total. Congrats, you've saved yourself 1.1p per day. Over a whole year, that may be enough to buy a beer.

In the days where a light bulb was 60-100w, then turning it off when you left the room for a few minutes made sense, as that does add up, 10 times quicker. But, cos the EU is pretty damn good, they pushed us to stop using highly inefficient light bulbs, and instead rather than using 60-100w, we're using 5-10w per bulb. We've already made the big leaps in energy efficiency in many cases. It used to be that we were told to turn a TV off completely, and not leave it on standby cos it used so much power. Since 2013 all TV's sold in the EU have had a standby consumption of 1W or less.

Using this logic, since all individual items is relatively small usage, people may as well do nothing other than cut back on their home aluminium smelting.

Yes. One of the biggest mistakes the green campaigns have made is making us believe that our personal choices would be able to make a real difference. Sure I may be able to find a way to save myself 100Wh over a day. I may be able to save a few units of what ever it is my heating comes from by turning the thermostat down and huddling under a blanket to watch the TV. But every single one of them will reduce my quality of life disproportionately to the environmental returns we get. Why would I want to make my home colder, when out the window I can see an Oil refinery[1]. Everything we do in our own homes short of installing a heat pump, and installing fuck tons of insulation. Is marginal gains. 2/3rds of a fuckall here, half a buggerall there. It's a rounding error on a rounding error of a nothingth in the grandscheme of things. And all it does is make us feel miserable to make us feel like we're doing our bit.

This is not the time for individual actions on small scales. We need MASS change across whole of society. By far the biggest user of electricity in the UK is the petrochemical industry[2]. Same as the biggest user of Cobalt is oil refineries. And there we can't recycle it at the end of it's life. This is something that is lost in the "But if we all drive EV's the grid will explode!" arguments. A reduction in oil based fuel consumption, should see a reduction in the need for energy in oil refineries. Will it be 1:1. No idea. But if we can switch off a few oil refineries, it's gonna make a massive improvement.

We're fixated on the whole air travel bad thing, and I must admit I fell for this one big time too. Is air travel horrendously polluting? yep. For many of us, a single flight will be the biggest single emission of CO2 in our year. But, aviation is 2% of global CO2 emissions. If we reduce that by half, that means we've cut global emissions by 1%. Not quite a rounding error, but it's hardly massive. If we can convert Cement, and Ferrous metal production to not rely on fossil fuels, and make them zero emissions. We'll take over 10% off global emissions. At that point things are starting to have a measurable impact.

Make transport zero emission, that's another ~10%. Those heat pumps I talked about making space heating zero emission, that's another ~10%. Now we're at 30%. Now it's starting to make an impact. "But how do we power all this!?". Well I got a radical suggestion: BUILD RENEWABLE ENERGY GENERATION SYSTEMS. We're using about 34GW of power in the UK. The largest wind turbines in the world are 16MW each, even at a capacity factor of 50%, that's 5000 turbines. One every kilometer for a line 500km long, and ten lines in total. Built offshore. Have you seen the size of the offshore wind resources we have? Any spare power can be used to make H². Add a few grid scale batteries. And then, cover the built environment in solar. Look around at all the big flat roofed buildings in our towns and cities. Warehouses, supermarkets, superstores. Cover every square meter that we can with solar. Cover the carparks with solar. Give people free solar on any suitable roof they have. The UK has amazing renewable energy resources available, we just have to use them. And before you all scream "But how are you going to pay for it?". Easy. Tax the fucking rich.

Insulate Britain have got a lot of press, and on the face of it their argument is sound, if we insulated every building in the UK it would improve our energy efficiency. But, I think they'd find a much better impact if they could persuade the government to fund heat pump development. If the UK government was to turn round to industry and say "We'll guarantee the purchase of 10000000 heat pump units, from the first company that can make them for £1000 each." Coupled with a voucher system so that people can have a heat pump fitted to their home and their gas boiler or shitty storage heaters scrapped, for free. The time for piecemeal tinkering was 30 years ago. Now we need big decisive action that will actually have an impact. Shivering in a cold home wrapped in a blanket, having carefully measured out just the right amount of water for your cup of tea, might make you feel like you've done your bit, but really all you're doing is making your own life worse, while letting industry pollute with impunity.

Sorry if that sounds defeatist. But That's the reality. You may save yourself a few quid each year on your bills, but unless you are on a pretty low income, it's unlikely to have a meaningful impact on your bank balance.

J


[1] I can't, there's tree's in the way, and it may be storage rather than a refinery, but you get the idea.
[2] Trying to get reliable source on this, so hold off your [citation needed].
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Ian H on 12 October, 2021, 07:51:04 pm
This is a big Victorian house on three floors (plus a cellar) which isn't going to easily be made efficient.  We've zoned the heating so each floor is separately controlled, double-glazed all the sash windows, replaced the one external door with a modern replica which actually seals, and insulated the ceiling of the cellar with not very fire-resistant Cellotex. 

But we have an Aga (it came with the house), though that does mean we don't need a tumble-dryer, just a pulley-operated laundry-maid, and it heats the back half of the house pretty well.

Replacing the 35yr old boiler with a new one (a quarter of the size) made a substantial difference to our bills.

But that's nothing compared to our neighbours who live in a huge, ancient, listed manor house where double-glazing & insulation isn't an option.  During the winter they live in one room with an open fire.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Feanor on 12 October, 2021, 08:08:54 pm
Using this logic, since all individual items is relatively small usage, people may as well do nothing other than cut back on their home aluminium smelting.

Essentially, yes.

There is some saving to be made here and there, eg from bulk-switching from incandescent to low-power LED lights.
But I listened to some wonk from an Energy Saving foundation on R4 a week or so back, being asked how to help reduce bills in the face of increased energy prices.
So, insulate, insulate, insulate. yes. But is that within the remit of the target population struggling with energy bills? Eg. in rented accommodation with a landlord who gives not a fuck?
For others? LED bulbs might make a small difference. Unplugging standby devices? The numbers quoted in the R4 interview suggested that people must have 20 old CRT Tvs on standby.
Most people who can have already taken most of the measures they realistically can, short of making their homes uncomfortable.
And those who have not, for whatever reason, are adding a rounding error to the grand scheme of things.

So yes, the oft-quoted individual measures really do amount to the square root of fuck-all both on your own bills, and on the bigger picture.

Also sorry if this sounds defeatist.


Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 12 October, 2021, 08:11:07 pm
There is some saving to be made here and there, eg from bulk-switching from incandescent to low-power LED lights.
But I listened to some wonk from an Energy Saving foundation on R4 a week or so back, being asked how to help reduce bills in the face of increased energy prices.


That would be BBC More or Less, assuming it's the same program I listened to as well. And where I got the 2013 -> 1W standby number from.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00100jh

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Feanor on 12 October, 2021, 08:21:58 pm
There is some saving to be made here and there, eg from bulk-switching from incandescent to low-power LED lights.
But I listened to some wonk from an Energy Saving foundation on R4 a week or so back, being asked how to help reduce bills in the face of increased energy prices.


That would be BBC More or Less, assuming it's the same program I listened to as well. And where I got the 2013 -> 1W standby number from.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00100jh

J

I think it's likely the same program. I was in the car, and didn't have a calculator to hand.

It was just that the suggestion was in any way a help to anyone struggling with energy bills that made me prickle.
The guy was being asked what practical measures people ( in particular people struggling with energy bills ) could take in face if increased prices.

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: arabella on 12 October, 2021, 08:33:23 pm
So, insulate, insulate, insulate. yes. But is that within the remit of the target population struggling with energy bills? Eg. in rented accommodation with a landlord who gives not a fuck?
Indeedy. 
Landlord cares not at all as it's an expense that makes no difference to how much rent they can charge.
Tennant could, with permission, do something but could then be turfed out in favour of another tenant paying a bit more (probably just because, possibly for that beautifully insulated residence).

I don't imagine a system whereby insulation 'investment' depreciates at £x/year (concommittant with the associated savings) and future tenant pays back previous tennant until costs have all been absorbed by savings.  Because it's too complicated.
I'm not sure what the solution is.

And exhalation will always increase the moisture in the air, needing airing to avid damp chill.  etc. thus negating some insulation.  How does a passivhaus maintain its warmth?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Feanor on 12 October, 2021, 08:34:48 pm
Using this logic, since all individual items is relatively small usage, people may as well do nothing other than cut back on their home aluminium smelting.

Essentially, yes.

There is some saving to be made here and there, eg from bulk-switching from incandescent to low-power LED lights.
But I listened to some wonk from an Energy Saving foundation on R4 a week or so back, being asked how to help reduce bills in the face of increased energy prices.
So, insulate, insulate, insulate. yes. But is that within the remit of the target population struggling with energy bills? Eg. in rented accommodation with a landlord who gives not a fuck?
For others? LED bulbs might make a small difference. Unplugging standby devices? The numbers quoted in the R4 interview suggested that people must have 20 old CRT Tvs on standby.
Most people who can have already taken most of the measures they realistically can, short of making their homes uncomfortable.
And those who have not, for whatever reason, are adding a rounding error to the grand scheme of things.

So yes, the oft-quoted individual measures really do amount to the square root of fuck-all both on your own bills, and on the bigger picture.
Mostly tokenism.

Also sorry if this sounds defeatist.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ian on 12 October, 2021, 08:52:19 pm
I have no disagreement that it needs government and not individual action, and indeed moving the onus onto individuals is chapter one of the corporate playbook. Plus entrusting it to individual action is a recipe for inaction because most people's response to something like rising sea-levels would be to complain about the price of wellies.

The flying thing is a good one, since it blended class war into the mix, and even if you're totally against flying, you can always justify special circumstances, do some especially diligent recycling, and issue yourself an indulgence. Plus the middle-classes got to roll their eyes at the annual procession of chavs to Gatwick for their week in Ibiza. Why they can't just go to a local literary festival and camp, I don't know.

That said, it doesn't hurt to turn off a boiling kettle or not take a flight, it shows a degree of acknowledgement that's bereft in the millions who will instead buy the latest SUV. If you can, you should. Because if you won't, who else will. Look, I dunno, I don't want to admit defeat any more than the rest of you. I know it's the square root of fuck all too.

I'm trying not to be pessimistic, but everything regarding climate change at the moment is pessimistic – what someone called straining optimism. The fairly dismal aim for 1.5 degrees is dead at this point, even if we get serious tomorrow, two degrees is looking like the minimum. For the record, 1.5 degrees is catastrophic and not one single country has made any significant progress towards even this lesser goal (which would have required 15% year on year cut starting in 2020, other than a faint dent from Covid, emissions continue to rise). The recovery from Covid hasn't been seized as a way to do things differently, the response is instead to turbocharge our way back to where we were.

The plan the human race has at the moment is that we will invent a magic machine that makes it all go away.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 12 October, 2021, 08:56:30 pm
The plan the human race has at the moment is that we will invent a magic machine that makes it all go away.

With a side order of "Just as long as it's not paid for by public money... "

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: rogerzilla on 12 October, 2021, 09:00:57 pm
One problem with landlords insulating houses is the tenant's toleration of disruption caused by fitting anything worthwhile.  Even extra loft insulation is tricky if the tenant is storing stuff up there, and you can forget internal or external wall insulation.  You can probably get away with new windows and doors.  If it's your own house, you don't mind living in a building site.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 12 October, 2021, 09:10:30 pm
Give everyone a half price or free ASHP and solar PV where applicable. On top of what QG said about the roofs of the notverysupermarches etc. Suddenly all these technologies become cheaper, people are more likely to pay the subsidised cost, everyones got one, the whole 'early adopter' factor goes away.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ian on 12 October, 2021, 09:29:50 pm
Yes, but the government (and not just ours) won't even impose even minimal requirements, even on new builds but they might shave a per cent off the profit margins of the developers to whom they're beholden.

Truth is, we need a 'Manhattan Project,' every country in the world needs one to deal with this on every level and the balls to get industry to start paying. You take oil out of the ground, pay the costs – pollutions, climate change, every single cent to account for that. Not doing so is a massive and destructive subsidy. By allowing the construction of poorly insulated, inefficient homes – of course – it's a similar mechanism of subsidy, and it's paid for by the people who live in them.

Hard choices, of course, and I get no sense we'll make them until it's too late. What government in the world is going to turn around at the end of 2021 and even tell its citizens they can't buy a large car? This isn't even something that will have an impact on their life (they can still buy a car and drive everywhere if they choose) but we can't and won't do it. Factor that across all the lifestyle changes we need to make in the developed world and the scale of the problem should be manifest.

To have any chance of getting back to 1.5-degree rise, we need to reduce global emissions by at least 50% in the next 8 years. There's no political or social will to make this happen. We treat it like any other social ill – we could for instance solve hunger, end poverty, stop homelessness – these are all doable things, and not even expensive things, but we choose not to do them. The difference is that these things, put of out of mind, just happen and they don't affect the rest of us. We can put them aside. Doing that with climate isn't such an option.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Wowbagger on 12 October, 2021, 10:37:16 pm
One problem with landlords insulating houses is the tenant's toleration of disruption caused by fitting anything worthwhile.  Even extra loft insulation is tricky if the tenant is storing stuff up there, and you can forget internal or external wall insulation.  You can probably get away with new windows and doors.  If it's your own house, you don't mind living in a building site.

Extra loft insulation is also of limited value, depending upon what is being stored and how much loft space it occupies. We've got boxes full of old books, GCSE, A level and degree projects up there. On the rare occasions it snows round here, our house generally keeps it on the roof longer than most.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 12 October, 2021, 11:53:00 pm
The thing that always throws me about loft insulation is that Shirley it just exacerbates the upstairs/downstairs temperature difference.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Diver300 on 13 October, 2021, 07:29:24 am
The thing that always throws me about loft insulation is that Shirley it just exacerbates the upstairs/downstairs temperature difference.
I would have said that is only the case where the upstairs heating isn't separately controlled.

Upstairs will be heated by convection from downstairs, but it can't get hotter than downstairs unless there is a significant upstairs heat source.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ppg on 13 October, 2021, 08:20:24 am
And before you all scream "But how are you going to pay for it?". Easy. Tax the fucking rich.
<United Kingdom
Following the reduction of the top rate of income tax in the UK from 50% to 45% in 2013, HMRC estimated the cost of the tax reduction to be about £100 million (out of an income for this group of around £90 billion), but with large uncertainty on both sides. Robert Chote, the chairman of the UK Office for Budget Responsibility commented that Britain was "strolling across the summit of the Laffer curve", implying that UK tax rates had been close to the optimum rate.[37][38]>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

If only slogans solved problems  :)
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Polar Bear on 13 October, 2021, 08:47:49 am
There are other taxes aside from income tax.  CGT for instance and tighter control of "reasonable costs" on certain types of spending.

Also tax breaks need to be reviewed objectively as does "Jenrick" interference.

Then there is the recent NI announcement.  Very equitable: load the burden upon the ordinary and young folk whilst continuing to prop up the grey vote.

I am always amazed how ordinary and even quite intelligent people seem to think that low revenue collection for the wealthy results in a fairer if more unequal society.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: nobby on 13 October, 2021, 08:50:43 am

If only slogans solved problems  :)

:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 13 October, 2021, 09:18:45 am
Quote
"But how are you going to pay for it?". Easy. Tax the fucking rich.

Hmm. I don't think that will work. If by 'the rich' you mean corps like Apple, Amazon etc, then I absolutely agree. They are a tick on every country in the world.

We need to make building offshore wind (and PV) a more attractive business than sucking oil out from the sea bed.

The cost of building offshore oil rigs is immense, they are incredibly ugly and the decommissioning is expensive and easily polluting. The 'nudge point' of making offshore wind a more attractive business can't be far off. I think it was BP that paid a record price for licence to build wind in an area. Just a little push more . . .
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ppg on 13 October, 2021, 09:26:20 am
Quote
"But how are you going to pay for it?". Easy. Tax the fucking rich.

Hmm. I don't think that will work. If by 'the rich' you mean corps like Apple, Amazon etc, then I absolutely agree. They are a tick on every country in the world.

We need to make building offshore wind (and PV) a more attractive business than sucking oil out from the sea bed.

Well it certainly didn't for Wilson/Healey though it did produce Exile on Main Street* so they can be forgiven  :)

Offshore wind certainly, but with massive investment in storage as demonstrated recently when the output fell to close to nothing. EVs? H2?


* OK not quite the same period, same policy though

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: felstedrider on 13 October, 2021, 09:30:24 am
One of the benefits of the current high wholesale prices is that new build unsubsidised solar and wind projects now make financial sense.   Masses of projects that were on the shelf are now rolling out to financial close.

Big problem for solar now will be getting the panels out of China to where they are needed on the ground.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ian on 13 October, 2021, 09:40:06 am
Quote
"But how are you going to pay for it?". Easy. Tax the fucking rich.

Hmm. I don't think that will work. If by 'the rich' you mean corps like Apple, Amazon etc, then I absolutely agree. They are a tick on every country in the world.

We need to make building offshore wind (and PV) a more attractive business than sucking oil out from the sea bed.

The cost of building offshore oil rigs is immense, they are incredibly ugly and the decommissioning is expensive and easily polluting. The 'nudge point' of making offshore wind a more attractive business can't be far off. I think it was BP that paid a record price for licence to build wind in an area. Just a little push more . . .

There's a simple solution to that – I mentioned it earlier – if you want to suck oil out of the ground or seabed fine, but pay the actual costs.

Taking it out of the ground immediately becomes economically unsustainable – and this is the true picture, fossil fuel is only a profitable business because the producers don't pay for anything, not even the immediate problems burning them causes. If you are in hospital with asthma because you live by a busy road, they're not paying the bills. And, of course, they're not paying for the cost of climate change. When you burn fuel, you are now passing a non-negotiable IOU to your kids, for an unspecified amount that's payable at an unspecified time.

On a wide scale, and with some irony, capitalism is only successful because we subsidise it. Carmakers wouldn't go far if we didn't build roads, for instance. Taxing the rich mostly doesn't work, they're mobile, there's not many of them, and they have lots of lawyers. Corporates need governments, however.

Anyway, paying the real costs of fossil fuel would, of course, completely change the economics of renewals, they'd be an order of magnitude cheaper. You can imagine why the fossil fuel industry aren't keen on this.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 13 October, 2021, 09:51:43 am
Quote
"But how are you going to pay for it?". Easy. Tax the fucking rich.

Hmm. I don't think that will work. If by 'the rich' you mean corps like Apple, Amazon etc, then I absolutely agree. They are a tick on every country in the world.

We need to make building offshore wind (and PV) a more attractive business than sucking oil out from the sea bed.

Well it certainly didn't for Wilson/Healey though it did produce Exile on Main Street* so they can be forgiven  :)

Offshore wind certainly, but with massive investment in storage as demonstrated recently when the output fell to close to nothing. EVs? H2?


* OK not quite the same period, same policy though

Building storage is where the government should be stepping in. We need storage.

The chances of them doing this? Somewhat less than Nil. They didn't even want to pay to maintain existing gas storage, and look where that has got us.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ppg on 13 October, 2021, 10:12:14 am
They didn't even want to pay to maintain existing gas storage, and look where that has got us.
Certainly with hindsight a mistake.
AIUI the driver was our ability to import huge volumes of LNG from Qatar & other places (20% of total gas usage in 2019) and not be reliant on Vlad which does make sense. Shame about the global shortage of LNG
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: perpetual dan on 13 October, 2021, 09:24:54 pm
A more mundane question, that’s probably a bigger effect than carefully measuring water for the kettle, while still firmly being in the things I can do - assuming I’ve changed where my pension is invested...

We have a three story terraced house, with a fairly new boiler and mostly thermostatic valve radiators (no zones though). This worked well enough when we were at school and work during the day and used all the floors in the evening / night. Now, with one at university and variable levels of home working, we’re looking at a winter when one or two rooms will be occupied during the day for a lot of the time. This is compounded by Mrs Dan having a colder room to work in.

Fiddling with 10 radiator valves twice a day will be a massive faff. Installing zoned heating probably disruptive and expensive, and running hot water round the pipes probably has some losses. Would a small electric fan heater make economic and carbon sense?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 October, 2021, 09:35:32 pm
A more mundane question, that’s probably a bigger effect than carefully measuring water for the kettle, while still firmly being in the things I can do - assuming I’ve changed where my pension is invested...

We have a three story terraced house, with a fairly new boiler and mostly thermostatic valve radiators (no zones though). This worked well enough when we were at school and work during the day and used all the floors in the evening / night. Now, with one at university and variable levels of home working, we’re looking at a winter when one or two rooms will be occupied during the day for a lot of the time. This is compounded by Mrs Dan having a colder room to work in.

Fiddling with 10 radiator valves twice a day will be a massive faff. Installing zoned heating probably disruptive and expensive, and running hot water round the pipes probably has some losses. Would a small electric fan heater make economic and carbon sense?

"It depends"

I need more data to be able to judge. I'm leaning towards probably not. But I'd need to do maths based on actual device and your energy prices to say one way or the other.


J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Paul H on 13 October, 2021, 10:22:06 pm
Would a small electric fan heater make economic and carbon sense?
In my opinion, based on having tried quite a few rathe than any expertise, the best portable electric room heater is an oil filled radiator. 
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 13 October, 2021, 10:33:31 pm
Smart TRV's, Dan?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: perpetual dan on 13 October, 2021, 11:39:13 pm
J: I could probably do the maths, though i'd have to watch the smart meter a bit to extract useful numbers. I wondered whether there was a generally known except by me rule of thumb on this.

Paul: Thanks. At first glance it sounds like oil filled radiators need some planning for warm up, rather than being an easy top up without nudging the heating on. But worth a look.

Mrs P: Smart TRVs are going to bump the price up a bit! Quite apart from any internet of shit concerns - i don't need a power cut somewhere else bringing our heating down.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Diver300 on 14 October, 2021, 12:16:17 am
Mrs P: Smart TRVs are going to bump the price up a bit! Quite apart from any internet of shit concerns - i don't need a power cut somewhere else bringing our heating down.
The Honeywell Evohome valves will do timed temperature in zones to a 7 day schedule without needing internet. You can make adjustments on the app, but you can also do that on the control panel, so a power cut elsewhere won't stop it. When we had broadband down for a week or so, the only thing effect I noticed on the heating was an email telling me that the system had lost connection, and another saying it was back when we got broadband back.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 14 October, 2021, 12:33:52 am
Problem with smart TRVs seems to be that if you can feed them mains power and/or wired networking you can do it properly with a dumb actuator. The smart options are all battery powered, which rules out WiFi connectivity, and means they use something like BLE or Zigbee, so you need a bridge device too, and now you have three problems.

One that can function as a sufficiently clever timer may be a better approach.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: lissotriton on 14 October, 2021, 02:53:09 am
If you are sitting at a desk, a little tube heater underneath can make you a lot more comfortable. They are pretty low power, maybe 100W, and quick to warm up.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: robgul on 14 October, 2021, 07:45:25 am
Problem with smart TRVs seems to be that if you can feed them mains power and/or wired networking you can do it properly with a dumb actuator. The smart options are all battery powered, which rules out WiFi connectivity, and means they use something like BLE or Zigbee, so you need a bridge device too, and now you have three problems.

One that can function as a sufficiently clever timer may be a better approach.

We have one bedroom that is used for about an hour every day, at pretty much the same time (I think my wife does yoga in there  ::-)) - rest of the time the door is closed.  What we have done is fit a timer/TRV (eqiva ModelN) - what that does is just open/close the radiator at the set times - thus if the CH is on and the remainder of the house themostat is calling for heat the "yoga studio" will have some heat just at the appropriate. 

It worked a treat last winter - the overall CH/HW (one zone CH) is controlled with Hive* which obviously makes it easy to to set time periods and switch the CH on/off.

Given the way that we use the house (4 bed, 2 storey - and just 2 of us) I'm probably going to get 2 more of the valves to control 2 rooms.  One room downstairs is seldom used and the 2nd bedroom is only used as my wife's dressing room earlier in the morning and later at night.

*I did try a Hive controlled thermosatic valve about 15 months ago but it turned out to be not fit for purpose - read the reviews! and it was sent back for a refund. 
On the face of it the Hive valves would have been the answer to be able to create "zones" in various rooms with time periods that fitted within the overall CH on period.   I may look again to see if there are any improvements to the valves.  It's a pity it didn't work as the Hive plug/sockets are brilliant ... we have a coffee machine on one and some technology kit has the power switched off overnight and back on in the morning.
 
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ian on 14 October, 2021, 09:41:34 am
I have an oil-filled radiator under my desk (my office has five external walls, two of which are mostly glass). It's a million years old and I've named it Toasty MacDimplex and he does the job. Though with my wife working at home, I have to do it secretly or she'll want the heating on (her office is upstairs and doesn't get so cold, we have a very well insulated loft, so warmth sits up there, pretty much all the radiators up there are thermostated right down because I'm a cool sleeper).

No point with zones or fancy here, the cats leave all the doors open, and I tend to free-range about the house. We had zones in our last place and never much used them, but it was narrow-ish three-storey place and heat just went straight up the stairwell. Cats and doors again.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: nobby on 14 October, 2021, 12:31:37 pm

The chances of them doing this? Somewhat less than Nil. They didn't even want to pay to maintain existing gas storage, and look where that has got us.
The things that governments pay for are payed for with our taxes. Surely, if the majority of the electorate doesn't want their taxes spent on something and the government goes ahead, it becomes the opposition without the power to do anything?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 14 October, 2021, 01:22:25 pm
Just checked temp in my office. 16C

I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.

We overheat our houses.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: rafletcher on 14 October, 2021, 01:34:16 pm
Just checked temp in my office. 16C

I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.

We overheat our houses.

More to the point, most of us live in houses much larger than necessary for our basic needs.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ian on 14 October, 2021, 02:45:47 pm

The chances of them doing this? Somewhat less than Nil. They didn't even want to pay to maintain existing gas storage, and look where that has got us.
The things that governments pay for are payed for with our taxes. Surely, if the majority of the electorate doesn't want their taxes spent on something and the government goes ahead, it becomes the opposition without the power to do anything?

Government spending isn't really paid for by taxes (taxes basically provide collateral for borrowing, but it's more complicated than that) and I doubt the electorate is qualified to contemplate gas storage needs or that it featured highly in their election day thoughts.

As mentioned, the local gas storage things disappeared a while back, the sites unsurprisingly sold off cheap to developers (cheap because contaminated, though it didn't seem to stop them building blocks of £750k flats in short order).

In other news, I don't like being below 20 degrees, so I look forward to the heating coming on. That said, it's about 19.5 degrees in my office today, so I'm only teetering on the edge of hypothermia.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: rogerzilla on 14 October, 2021, 03:01:29 pm
Just checked temp in my office. 16C

I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.

We overheat our houses.

More to the point, most of us live in houses much larger than necessary for our basic needs.
Unfortunately, the nicer streets are all big houses.  You have to buy a big house to avoid the kind of neighbours I have!
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ppg on 14 October, 2021, 03:09:39 pm
Quote
We overheat our houses.
We is all different, even within one household

As an example - I am, of course, totally normal, #1 son was (and still is) an eskimo but Mrs ppg & #2 son are orchids

Setting the temperatures back in the day required some juggling.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 14 October, 2021, 03:32:15 pm
The cost of building offshore oil rigs is immense, they are incredibly ugly and the decommissioning is expensive and easily polluting. The 'nudge point' of making offshore wind a more attractive business can't be far off. I think it was BP that paid a record price for licence to build wind in an area. Just a little push more . . .

The East Coast of Scotland... there is a shit load of near shore wind schemes in the planning on top of the capacity already built.

https://www.offshorewindscotland.org.uk/forth-tay-offshore/
(https://www.offshorewindscotland.org.uk/media/1255/fto-map.png)

The North Sea is well set for it, relatively shallow waters means not too expensive to get the foundations in and plenty of wind.
When floating turbines prove themselves in the North Sea, then the wind capacity of the Atlantic is there for the taking.

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 October, 2021, 03:44:32 pm
Just checked temp in my office. 16C

I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.

We overheat our houses.

That's comfortable for you. That is seriously fucking cold for an indoor space for me. I would be entirely non functional in such a space.

We do not over heat out houses. Some people just have different temperatures that they find comfortable.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 14 October, 2021, 03:49:04 pm
Just checked temp in my office. 16C

I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.

We overheat our houses.

That's comfortable for you. That is seriously fucking cold for an indoor space for me. I would be entirely non functional in such a space.

We do not over heat out houses. Some people just have different temperatures that they find comfortable.

J
I live with someone who is 'cold' compared to me. We dress very differently; there are times when I'm sat in a T shirt and jeans - she looks relatively lightly dressed, but is wearing wool base layer, leggings, wool dress and an open cardigan/throw.

It would be interesting to see if you were comfortable, dressed similarly, in similar temps.

Quite a lot of us folk who enjoy type two fun, and own the right clothing, don't use that clothing when in our domestic setting.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Feanor on 14 October, 2021, 03:50:07 pm
For me it also depends on what you are doing.
If I am sitting still in front of a laptop for hours, then I will chill down more than if I'm up and moving around.

Luckily, I use my den as my WfH space, and it has all the IT kit in it so stays at a comfortable temperature anyways.

I really don't want to be sitting around at home in the same kit I'd be wearing outdoors halfway up a mountain.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Ham on 14 October, 2021, 03:55:53 pm

I accidentally put the washing machine on the eco settings, so it took 4 hours to do the towels instead of 1

This type of thing is another issue which highlights something that prevents widespread effective steps being taken to save energy. That is, people don't really understand science. On a discussion like this, in this kind of place, it tends to be amongst informed people. But, I would consider Mrs Ham to be an intelligent, well informed person. However, she struggles mightily with the idea that a longer cycle will use less energy than a shorter one. As she does with the flow reducers on modern taps (our hot water cylinder is a long way away from the kitchen). A new tap now takes much longer to run hot - "how can it save water? It's running down the drain for much longer". 

It matters not a jot what the science is, the real world is mostly occupied by people who really do not understand, so making wrong choices is not their fault along people who _won't_ understand always choosing what they perceive as the best option for them personally in the short term, regardless of whether it is or not. You don't have to look further than the recent car fuel "crisis" at those who can't drive with a lighter right foot.

Doomed we are, doomed.

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Feanor on 14 October, 2021, 04:12:15 pm
But the issue you highlight here is quite significant.

Some of the so-called 'eco' measures applied to domestic appliances etc are really just greenwash.

Eg 'saving water': toilet flush becomes inadequate to clear the bowl, so this can result in double-flushing as often as not.
Flow reducers on taps? Those things that fluff the water up with air? Why? If I turn the tap on, it's because I want water, not air. I can adjust the flow as necessary.
Wash cycles of several hours: what do they actually achieve? Lower wash temps will use marginally less power, I suppose.

It just seems to me that a lot of this stuff is tokenism that increases inconvenience disproportionately to any actual benefit.

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 14 October, 2021, 04:34:12 pm
But the issue you highlight here is quite significant.

Some of the so-called 'eco' measures applied to domestic appliances etc are really just greenwash.

Eg 'saving water': toilet flush becomes inadequate to clear the bowl, so this can result in double-flushing as often as not.
Flow reducers on taps? Those things that fluff the water up with air? Why? If I turn the tap on, it's because I want water, not air. I can adjust the flow as necessary.
Wash cycles of several hours: what do they actually achieve? Lower wash temps will use marginally less power, I suppose.

It just seems to me that a lot of this stuff is tokenism that increases inconvenience disproportionately to any actual benefit.

Long wash cycles usually have pauses, allowing the clothes to soak in the wet detergent.
Lower temperatures, not turning the drum as much; less energy used.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 14 October, 2021, 05:00:24 pm
Just checked temp in my office. 16C

I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.

We overheat our houses.

I can be sat in the same room as Pingu who is wearing shorts, I'll be wearing a fleece zipped up to my chin (and sometimes have the hood up), be sitting under a fleece blanket folded in half from my toes to my oxters, have a couple of feline hot water bottles sat on my lap or next to my legs and still have a nose and fingers like some meat that's been in the fridge.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Polar Bear on 14 October, 2021, 05:17:32 pm
I am of the view that the house should be neither hot nor cold.   Modest warmth helps keep dampness and mould at bay but also we need to allow fresh air to circulate on a regular basis.

I don't see the issue of wearing a fleece and wonder just how wasteful an extra 2 or 3 degrees on the thermostat costs in terms of burnt fuel and environmental impact let alone 5 or 6!

One thing that lockdown saved me from was visiting people who insist on running the house at temperatures warmer than most English summer days: and yet, we don't have the heating on for at least half of the year.  Once dressing for outdoors it's quite a game to peel off numerous layers without appearing rude!
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 14 October, 2021, 05:23:51 pm
Just checked temp in my office. 16C

I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.

We overheat our houses.

That's comfortable for you. That is seriously fucking cold for an indoor space for me. I would be entirely non functional in such a space.

We do not over heat out houses. Some people just have different temperatures that they find comfortable.

J
I live with someone who is 'cold' compared to me. We dress very differently; there are times when I'm sat in a T shirt and jeans - she looks relatively lightly dressed, but is wearing wool base layer, leggings, wool dress and an open cardigan/throw.

It would be interesting to see if you were comfortable, dressed similarly, in similar temps.

Quite a lot of us folk who enjoy type two fun, and own the right clothing, don't use that clothing when in our domestic setting.

I'll weigh in with room at 21.4C, feeling on the warm side of comfortable (borderline sweaty) in technical jeans, t-shirt and fleece.  My fingers are almost but not quite painfully cold and I'm alternating between keyboard and sitting on them.

When I'm participating in Type 2 Fun, I tend to be generating enough heat to warm my extremities (and - crucially - I have a much higher tolerance for feeling uncomfortably hot when exercising).  When sat at the computer, I don't.

If the temperature were in the 23-24C range, I'd feel hot, would wear less clothing, and my fingers would be fine.  Sleep would be difficult.

I don't think humans were designed for sitting at computers.

(Thermostat is set to 20C (more usually 19C, but barakta's living downstairs atm), and I sit on my hands all winter.)
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: robgul on 14 October, 2021, 05:38:36 pm
The cost of building offshore oil rigs is immense, they are incredibly ugly and the decommissioning is expensive and easily polluting. The 'nudge point' of making offshore wind a more attractive business can't be far off. I think it was BP that paid a record price for licence to build wind in an area. Just a little push more . . .

The East Coast of Scotland... there is a shit load of near shore wind schemes in the planning on top of the capacity already built.

https://www.offshorewindscotland.org.uk/forth-tay-offshore/
(https://www.offshorewindscotland.org.uk/media/1255/fto-map.png)

The North Sea is well set for it, relatively shallow waters means not too expensive to get the foundations in and plenty of wind.
When floating turbines prove themselves in the North Sea, then the wind capacity of the Atlantic is there for the taking.

That nice Mr Trump is none too keen on those "windmills" interfering with the vista from his golf course near Aberdeen.

To me the offshore fans are rather graceful, the on tops of hills ones not quite so good and can be a bit noisy.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 October, 2021, 06:15:31 pm
Just checked temp in my office. 16C

I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.

We overheat our houses.

That's comfortable for you. That is seriously fucking cold for an indoor space for me. I would be entirely non functional in such a space.

We do not over heat out houses. Some people just have different temperatures that they find comfortable.

J
I live with someone who is 'cold' compared to me. We dress very differently; there are times when I'm sat in a T shirt and jeans - she looks relatively lightly dressed, but is wearing wool base layer, leggings, wool dress and an open cardigan/throw.

It would be interesting to see if you were comfortable, dressed similarly, in similar temps.

Quite a lot of us folk who enjoy type two fun, and own the right clothing, don't use that clothing when in our domestic setting.

I'll weigh in with room at 21.4C, feeling on the warm side of comfortable (borderline sweaty) in technical jeans, t-shirt and fleece.  My fingers are almost but not quite painfully cold and I'm alternating between keyboard and sitting on them.

When I'm participating in Type 2 Fun, I tend to be generating enough heat to warm my extremities (and - crucially - I have a much higher tolerance for feeling uncomfortably hot when exercising).  When sat at the computer, I don't.

If the temperature were in the 23-24C range, I'd feel hot, would wear less clothing, and my fingers would be fine.  Sleep would be difficult.

I don't think humans were designed for sitting at computers.

(Thermostat is set to 20C (more usually 19C, but barakta's living downstairs atm), and I sit on my hands all winter.)
Defo. As I said way back on p2, it's all about physical movement, which is kind of difficult when you're sitting at a desk. I imagine it was even worse in the pre-computer days when you had to hold a pen for hours on end.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: lissotriton on 14 October, 2021, 06:24:37 pm
Fingerless gloves or wrist warmers can help for sitting at a computer.
Or anyone tried a heated mouse mat / keyboard?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 October, 2021, 06:59:58 pm
Fingerless gloves or wrist warmers can help for sitting at a computer.
Or anyone tried a heated mouse mat / keyboard?

Tried the fingerless thing. Doesn't help, it just means that less of the hand is too cold to use.

Heated keyboard? sure, just open chrome and let it abuse all the laptop's cpu cycles :p

Right now my flat is 23°C. It's a comfortable temp for me. I can feel my feet and my hands. i can think.

My bedroom is about 21°C. Any colder and I find it very hard to get out of bed in the morning.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 14 October, 2021, 07:02:02 pm

I accidentally put the washing machine on the eco settings, so it took 4 hours to do the towels instead of 1

This type of thing is another issue which highlights something that prevents widespread effective steps being taken to save energy. That is, people don't really understand science. On a discussion like this, in this kind of place, it tends to be amongst informed people. But, I would consider Mrs Ham to be an intelligent, well informed person. However, she struggles mightily with the idea that a longer cycle will use less energy than a shorter one. As she does with the flow reducers on modern taps (our hot water cylinder is a long way away from the kitchen). A new tap now takes much longer to run hot - "how can it save water? It's running down the drain for much longer". 

It matters not a jot what the science is, the real world is mostly occupied by people who really do not understand, so making wrong choices is not their fault along people who _won't_ understand always choosing what they perceive as the best option for them personally in the short term, regardless of whether it is or not. You don't have to look further than the recent car fuel "crisis" at those who can't drive with a lighter right foot.

Doomed we are, doomed.

It's autumn, in Scotland
The towels had to go in the dryer because after 4 hours there was no hope they were going to be dried on the line. It was dark and calm.
Had I used the 1hr cycle given the running cost differential between the washer and the dryer and the whirly, 1hr washer + 4hrs whirly + 20m dryer < 4hrs washer + 3hrs dryer

Washing is a series of events that all have their own cost to reach the same outcome. 
Using the cheapest setting on all devices is not necessarily cheaper than getting one phase done quickly at higher cost and then the next event having a grand cost of £0

In a few weeks time it will almost certainly cheaper to use the cheapest setting for all events because it'll be dark, wet and cold which negates the fact it will also be blowing a hoolie (aka a double pegger day in these parts).

That nice Mr Trump is none too keen on those "windmills" interfering with the vista from his golf course near Aberdeen.

To me the offshore fans are rather graceful, the on tops of hills ones not quite so good and can be a bit noisy.

Aye He's nae an he wiz telt tae ram it.



Room temp:
Hoose thermostat is set to 18/19 for the bedroom (on the north wall)
Radiators set to get the office room up to 20ish (It gets to 23 if it's sunny as it's on a south wall... I could do with a more advanced TRV in here)
I wear thin merino or thick lambswool jumpers all year, and cords. (no I am not a geography teacher)

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 14 October, 2021, 08:12:43 pm
My bedroom is about 21°C. Any colder and I find it very hard to get out of bed in the morning.

21C is my upper limit for a decent night's sleep.

16C is my lower limit for avoiding long-term decline in control of my asthma.  (In the absence of infection or whatever I can go a few nights at much lower temperatures, and it gets most of the way to zero before the cold triggers asthma attacks on its own[1].)

I've yet to experience a temperature that makes getting out of bed in the morning easy...


[1] Turns out you can't insulate yourself out of breathing cold air, see above re: type 2 fun.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 October, 2021, 08:18:41 pm
I've yet to experience a temperature that makes getting out of bed in the morning easy...

It's never easier. But it's less hard at 21°C than it is at 16°C or 10°C.

I spent too many winters where with heating on maxed out the place I lived was 10-12°C in the middle of winter. Just the idea of being back to that gives me a panic attack.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: perpetual dan on 14 October, 2021, 08:33:52 pm
Fingerless gloves or wrist warmers can help for sitting at a computer.
Or anyone tried a heated mouse mat / keyboard?

I think fingerless gloves on video calls will erode people's respect.

My question was more for Mrs Dan, who feels the cold more than me (the other day she was in layers, warm jumper, leggings, slippers and cold; i was in a t shirt and barefoot and comfortable). An efficient way to boost the heat around her is what i was after - your tube heater idea sounded interesting.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 October, 2021, 08:35:04 pm
At one place in far off Eastern Poland, one of my colleagues was an impecunious young woman straight out of uni, who was renting a room off an old woman in the Old Town. The buildings in that district had heating systems installed in the renovations post-WW2, which means a solid fuel (ideally coal but could be wood or more frequently rubbish) tiled stove in the corner. No central heating system, no radiators. This old lady's only source of income besides whatever she got in rent was a widow's pension, probably about 500zl a month (just under £100). Even 20 years ago, even in far off easternest Eastern Poland, that wasn't very much, so she couldn't afford much coal. And the winters could be subzero for a few months at a time. My colleague informed me that when the indoor temperature is 12 degrees, you (ie she) can still work, but when it gets down to 8, it's impossible.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: fd3 on 16 October, 2021, 01:23:26 pm
I would say don't use the oven, as it seems to me it uses a lot of fuel compared to other methods of cooking.

That's pretty hair-shirt, even by the standards of this thread.
Making bread over a hotel-issue milliwatt iron is going to be somewhat challenging.

And it's misguided. Running the oven for an hour, is about 2.5kwh of energy (based on googling how much energy does an oven use). Which if the oven was out in the garden, would result in 2.5Kwh of energy lost to atmosphere, plus dinner. But your oven is in the kitchen, so running the oven for an hour puts 2.5kwh of energy into the kitchen in the form of warmth. And produces dinner. Saving you the need for 2.5kwh of heating in that room. It's a win win.

J
True.  So looking to your point on using a drier, it will warm your house as it dries your clothes, reducing your heating bills.
(we have the drier in #1 son's bedroom to maximise heat in the house.  Obvs we don't use it in the summer because we aren't mental)
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: lissotriton on 16 October, 2021, 01:46:25 pm
True.  So looking to your point on using a drier, it will warm your house as it dries your clothes, reducing your heating bills.
(we have the drier in #1 son's bedroom to maximise heat in the house.  Obvs we don't use it in the summer because we aren't mental)
Depends on what sort of tumble dryer. A regular, cheap vented tumble drier is dumping the hot air outside. So that is just wasted energy.
If you have a heat pump tumble dryer, that should use much less electricity, and the heat should mostly be staying inside.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: fd3 on 16 October, 2021, 03:26:36 pm
Merino base layers are bloody marvellous. As are merino jumpers. They might cost upwards of £60 a piece but you're getting for comfort in low temperatures. And you take that comfort with you when you go outdoors.
See QGs "being rich" post, although I'd argue most of it is actually "comfortably off" rather than "rich" but that may be a perception difference as to what rich is.
I'd say it's "prioritising" as much/more than being rich.  Buy one top or buy 6 disposable ones from Primark?  It's a choice.  Buy cheap now or wait and buy better?  It's a choice.  Are you going to get your car on finance or your A++ rated appliances?  It's a choice.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 16 October, 2021, 05:55:01 pm
I'd never heard of the heat pump dryers until this thread. Every day's a school day.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Lightning Phil on 16 October, 2021, 06:00:19 pm
Warm part of house is 17C in winter.  We always have the windows open in the bedroom unless rain or snow blowing in.  Don’t measure temp but prefer it cool with fresh air for sleeping.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 16 October, 2021, 06:07:07 pm
I'd say it's "prioritising" as much/more than being rich.  Buy one top or buy 6 disposable ones from Primark?  It's a choice.  Buy cheap now or wait and buy better?  It's a choice.  Are you going to get your car on finance or your A++ rated appliances?  It's a choice.

It's only a choice if you have the money, and the financial savvy to be able to make it. If you're on Universal credit and just had your benefits cut, then saving up for a 60 quid merino top is going to take a long time, and may mean a few days being hungry.

See Sam Vime's theory.

A nice wool jumper, that is made of actual wool, and not acrylic, is *REALLY* expensive these days.

True.  So looking to your point on using a drier, it will warm your house as it dries your clothes, reducing your heating bills.
(we have the drier in #1 son's bedroom to maximise heat in the house.  Obvs we don't use it in the summer because we aren't mental)

Except as others have already said, if it's the older style that vents outside. In which case it's wasted.

It's autumn, in Scotland
The towels had to go in the dryer because after 4 hours there was no hope they were going to be dried on the line. It was dark and calm.
Had I used the 1hr cycle given the running cost differential between the washer and the dryer and the whirly, 1hr washer + 4hrs whirly + 20m dryer < 4hrs washer + 3hrs dryer

I took my towel out of the washing machine and hung it up in the unheated bathroom (it get's most of it's warmth from the Kitchen, which has the radiator on low, and primarily gets heated by me making dinner). Do that at about 2200 when I hang the washing up. It's dry when I shower the next morning at about 9ish. The rest of the laundry gets hung on a rack that hangs over the front of my bedroom door. Again, hang stuff up about 2200ish, and it's dry by morning. In winter I sometimes put stuff on the radiator, usually things that are awkward, like my cycling gloves.

Humidity in my flat currently is 47.4%, and in the middle of winter with snow on the ground it gets to about 30%.

<United Kingdom
Following the reduction of the top rate of income tax in the UK from 50% to 45% in 2013, HMRC estimated the cost of the tax reduction to be about £100 million (out of an income for this group of around £90 billion), but with large uncertainty on both sides. Robert Chote, the chairman of the UK Office for Budget Responsibility commented that Britain was "strolling across the summit of the Laffer curve", implying that UK tax rates had been close to the optimum rate.[37][38]>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

If only slogans solved problems  :)

Right, now tax Facebook, and Amazon, and Google, and all the other fucking huge firms that pay less in tax in the UK, than I pay VAT on hygiene products. Oh, and while you're at it stop fucking subsidising the fossil fuel industry.

Then, when we've done that, seize the assets of any individual with worth over 1B, They can keep the first £99999999. But they really don't need the rest.

See QGs "being rich" post, although I'd argue most of it is actually "comfortably off" rather than "rich" but that may be a perception difference as to what rich is.

Yes, on a global scale, anyone posting to this forum is Rich... Even in the UK, if you have food in your kitchen, a warm house, and comfortable clothes, and discretionary spending money each month, you're doing better than several million of our fellow citizens. But yes, comfortably off is probably a good description.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: fruitcake on 16 October, 2021, 06:20:16 pm
I reckon the concept I'm going to call 'micro-heating' will catch on. This is a bit like the idea that you don't have to heat the entire house to be comfortable. Only, this is a step further. You don't have to heat the whole room to stay comfortable. Electric blankets are an example of micro-heating. As are heated car seats. There are companies which have designed living room chairs with heating elements.

I have an oil-filled radiator under my desk...
I'd say that's an implementation of micro-heating, because it places the heat where it's needed and the desktop here is a 'hood' to stop (some of) the heat escaping.

You can also warm the touch points. There are heated computer keyboards, and heated mice, for instance.

Heated gilets warm just the areas of the body that get cold first, i.e. kidneys and lower back. They're now available in designs that look like normal clothes, and they take USB power in (rather than the early ones which were designed specifically for builders and motorcyclists and required specialist batteries.)

I think we'll see more of this kind of stuff. Electric elements allow designs that isolate heat to an extent that's just not possible with coolant-filled radiators. And I hope we do see more innovation in this direction. A fringe benefit is that it's portable. You can set up office in places you couldn't otherwise.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: rogerzilla on 16 October, 2021, 06:22:37 pm
I'd never heard of the heat pump dryers until this thread. Every day's a school day.
The are notorious for taking forever to dry anything.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 16 October, 2021, 06:24:55 pm
I'd never heard of the heat pump dryers until this thread. Every day's a school day.
The are notorious for taking forever to dry anything.

I thought that was condensing tumble dryers.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: fd3 on 16 October, 2021, 06:30:53 pm
I'd say it's "prioritising" as much/more than being rich.  Buy one top or buy 6 disposable ones from Primark?  It's a choice.  Buy cheap now or wait and buy better?  It's a choice.  Are you going to get your car on finance or your A++ rated appliances?  It's a choice.

It's only a choice if you have the money, and the financial savvy to be able to make it. If you're on Universal credit and just had your benefits cut, then saving up for a 60 quid merino top is going to take a long time, and may mean a few days being hungry.

Sure, but you have to mean only the extremely poor and you still have to qualify that with lack of financial savvy.
If you are a two person household where both of you work at the checkout in Sainsbury’s you would not count as poor by this reckoning.  You would really need to be a single parent working as a part time dinner lady in school to qualify.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Feanor on 16 October, 2021, 06:53:18 pm
I'd never heard of the heat pump dryers until this thread. Every day's a school day.
The are notorious for taking forever to dry anything.

I thought that was condensing tumble dryers.

Don't think so by my experience.
Our are all condensing, and they don't seem slow to me.

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 16 October, 2021, 07:12:03 pm
Condensing dryers are extremely slow when you are unaware how a condensing dryer works, didn't read the destructions, and leave the condensate tray to fill up to the point where the float switch cuts power to the elements.

(This is particularly annoying when none of this gets passed on to The Person With The Multimeter, who tips the lot all over their knees when attempting to find the fault.)
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Diver300 on 16 October, 2021, 07:29:09 pm
I'd never heard of the heat pump dryers until this thread. Every day's a school day.
The are notorious for taking forever to dry anything.

I thought that was condensing tumble dryers.
Heat pump dryers are a type of condensing dryers. The heat is pumped from the condenser to the heater. The air goes over the condenser where the moisture, unsurprisingly, consdenses. The air is then heated by the heater and goes into the drum where it heats the clothes and picks up water from them. Then it's back to the condenser. Getting the heat from the condensing of the water is the best source of heat to pump.

Heat pumps are a significant cost to build, and are why heat pump dryers are more expensive. Making them more powerful would add to the cost. Keeping the power down will probably make them more efficient, but will slow down the drying. On a vented dryer, a more powerful heater will be hardly any more cost than a less powerful one. Also, it may use less energy to dry the clothes faster, as less air will need to be blow through the dryer and heated if the process is takes longer.

Our dryer says it will take 3 hours when set to "cupboard dry" but will take much less if there isn't much in it. It's probably slower than our previous vented one. It really doesn't cause a problem for household use.

One other advantage of heat pump dryers is that they are far less likely to cause any fluff to burn. If fluff lands on an electric heater, that part of the heater will still generate the same amount of heat, so it will run hotter. On a heat pump dryer, the heat comes from the condensation of the refrigerant gas, so if one area of the heater is covered if fluff, there will just be less condensation of refrigerant in that area so less heat will be generated in that area and the temperature won't go up much.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 16 October, 2021, 07:46:15 pm
It's autumn, in Scotland
The towels had to go in the dryer because after 4 hours there was no hope they were going to be dried on the line. It was dark and calm.
Had I used the 1hr cycle given the running cost differential between the washer and the dryer and the whirly, 1hr washer + 4hrs whirly + 20m dryer < 4hrs washer + 3hrs dryer

I took my towel out of the washing machine and hung it up in the unheated bathroom (it get's most of it's warmth from the Kitchen, which has the radiator on low, and primarily gets heated by me making dinner). Do that at about 2200 when I hang the washing up. It's dry when I shower the next morning at about 9ish. The rest of the laundry gets hung on a rack that hangs over the front of my bedroom door. Again, hang stuff up about 2200ish, and it's dry by morning. In winter I sometimes put stuff on the radiator, usually things that are awkward, like my cycling gloves.

Humidity in my flat currently is 47.4%, and in the middle of winter with snow on the ground it gets to about 30%.

68% at 18.8c here according to the doohicky in the bathroom... hud on I'll move it somewhere dryer.
66% at 19.5c in the office room

Yes stuff could be hung up around the house, my one and only horse lives in the door corner of the living room in front of the radiator and is permanently covered in cycling kit.
That's the only room with space to set it up, partly due to a slightly duff layout of kitchen that sees the doors being french taking up most of the outer wall (that goes into the porch), in the middle with sink, washer and dishwasher on one side and large stove top plus oven on the other and larder and fridge on the hall side wall.  Someone has at some point in the past decided they didn't like a dining kitchen and made the kitchen spread round the walls, making a lot of useless space in the middle (similar has been done to the bathroom but it works well enough at the loss of office/2nd room space).

Heat Pump dryer is currently on in the porch, it's 10c in there with it running...

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Lightning Phil on 16 October, 2021, 07:56:23 pm
If you have the space and want to dry clothes with more energy efficiency then get a dehumidifier.  About 4 times less electricity at a cost of taking 4 times as long as a dryer.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Basil on 16 October, 2021, 07:56:41 pm
Warm part of house is 17C in winter.  We always have the windows open in the bedroom unless rain or snow blowing in.  Don’t measure temp but prefer it cool with fresh air for sleeping.

Me too.  Has to be <-5° for me to consider trying to sleep in a airless room.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 16 October, 2021, 09:49:01 pm
I am trying to figure out the %rh in our new house. A few days ago all the meters were reading over 70%, and it hadn't been raining. Day before yesterday it pished with rain (to the extent the newly cleaned gutters were overwhelmed) in the late afternoon and this evening all the meters are reading about 56%. I'm still trying to work it all out.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Diver300 on 16 October, 2021, 11:49:26 pm
I am trying to figure out the %rh in our new house. A few days ago all the meters were reading over 70%, and it hadn't been raining. Day before yesterday it pished with rain (to the extent the newly cleaned gutters were overwhelmed) in the late afternoon and this evening all the meters are reading about 56%. I'm still trying to work it all out.
Outside temperature often has more effect on the indoor humidity than outside humidity does.

If air is heated, its capacity to hold water vapour increases very fast. So when cold air from outside comes in and is heated, the absolute humidity doesn't change, but the relative humidity drops. If it's colder outside, 100% humidity air has to be heated more by the house so the relative humidity drops more from the 100% than if the air had been heated less.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: fruitcake on 17 October, 2021, 10:16:12 am
Relative Humidity varies through the day. For instace, colder months in towns west of the pennines in the north of England, the evenings can be over 90% RH even though early afternoons can be just 60%. This means every air change has to be dehumidified, either through capturing the water vapour or raising the air tenperature. MetOffice site is a useful resource for forecasting Humidity - you need to press the button for 'full forecast'

Thursday's forcecast for Manchester is an example of daytime humidity in the 60s, night time almost 90.
https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/forecast/gcw2hzs1u#?date=2021-10-17 (https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/forecast/gcw2hzs1u#?date=2021-10-17)

In these conditions, it's important to seal up the house to stop all vents, but to use manual venting (e.g. opening a window) when conditions outside are favourable. Sealing up includes closing trickle vents on windows, closing open/close vents in walls, sealing off fireplaces, and having well fitting external doors and loft hatch. Then dehumidifiers can be effective.

Daily RH variations are less extreme in the south of England.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 17 October, 2021, 11:47:27 am
Not forecast to drop below 90% her until Wednesday lunch time when the sun comes back out for a few hours.
Drops to 60% then
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Wowbagger on 17 October, 2021, 06:37:12 pm
I had cold feet for a good deal of last night. I shall keep socks on tonight.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ian on 17 October, 2021, 06:46:43 pm
I am trying to figure out the %rh in our new house. A few days ago all the meters were reading over 70%, and it hadn't been raining. Day before yesterday it pished with rain (to the extent the newly cleaned gutters were overwhelmed) in the late afternoon and this evening all the meters are reading about 56%. I'm still trying to work it all out.

I would be bothered - if there's no obvious damp and you're not farming a herd of grand pianos or minding a friend's collection of renaissance artwork, it'll fluctuate anyway, the monitor on the machine in our kitchen spans from 30-60%.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 October, 2021, 06:49:52 pm
I had cold feet for a good deal of last night. I shall keep socks on tonight.

I have to sleep with socks on year round. Even in the height of summer.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mr Larrington on 17 October, 2021, 06:57:16 pm
Wearing socks today for the first time in about six months, because I was in the Big Room most of the day.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: hubner on 30 October, 2021, 04:08:45 pm
I reckon the concept I'm going to call 'micro-heating' will catch on. This is a bit like the idea that you don't have to heat the entire house to be comfortable. Only, this is a step further. You don't have to heat the whole room to stay comfortable. Electric blankets are an example of micro-heating. As are heated car seats. There are companies which have designed living room chairs with heating elements.

I have an oil-filled radiator under my desk...
I'd say that's an implementation of micro-heating, because it places the heat where it's needed and the desktop here is a 'hood' to stop (some of) the heat escaping.

You can also warm the touch points. There are heated computer keyboards, and heated mice, for instance.

Heated gilets warm just the areas of the body that get cold first, i.e. kidneys and lower back. They're now available in designs that look like normal clothes, and they take USB power in (rather than the early ones which were designed specifically for builders and motorcyclists and required specialist batteries.)

I think we'll see more of this kind of stuff. Electric elements allow designs that isolate heat to an extent that's just not possible with coolant-filled radiators. And I hope we do see more innovation in this direction. A fringe benefit is that it's portable. You can set up office in places you couldn't otherwise.

OK, people are not going to change their lifestyles but the following makes interesting reading nevertheless:

Restoring the Old Way of Warming: Heating People, not Places
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2015/02/heating-people-not-spaces.html

Insulation: first the body, then the home
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/02/body-insulation-thermal-underwear.html

How to Keep Warm in a Cool House
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2015/03/local-heating.html

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2015/03/radiant-and-conductive-heating-systems.html
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 October, 2021, 04:52:24 pm
Insulation: first the body, then the home
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/02/body-insulation-thermal-underwear.html
Quote
Modern thermal underclothing offers the possibility to turn the thermostat much lower without sacrificing comfort or sex appeal.
Rule 34 applies, but do be careful when searching for "fleece porn".

Quote
Although room temperature is hardly ever mentioned as a factor in energy use, it is a decisive factor in the energy consumption of heating systems - just as the speed of an automobile is a decisive factor in the energy use of an engine.
Never mentioned? I'm sure I've seen publicity campaigns telling us to turn the thermostat down x degrees to save y amount of money/energy. But the magazine seems to be Usanian so maybe in that context it's right.

Quote
As far as I was able to find out, nobody has published a research report on the evolution of the average room temperature in winter throughout recent history. Today, the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE) recommends an indoor winter temperature between 21 and 23 degrees Celsius (70 to 73.5°F). A Dutch report (.pdf, in dutch) mentions a rise in average winter indoor temperature from 20° C in 1984 to 21° C in 1992. David MacKay mentions an average room temperature of 13° Celsius (55°F) in the UK in 1970.
Fragmentary data but perhaps broadly indicative.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: hubner on 30 October, 2021, 05:21:05 pm
Quote
Low-tech Magazine is written by Kris De Decker (Barcelona, Spain).
Quote
Kris De Decker was born in Antwerp (Belgium) and lives in Barcelona (Spain)
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: fruitcake on 31 October, 2021, 09:36:03 am
Thanks Hubner. I had read the final article a few years ago and lost the link, so glad you posted it. It's very interesting to see the concept of micro-climates within a room.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 November, 2021, 12:39:49 am
Due to the cycling kit getting washed on Saturday (unusual timing of stuff allowed this) I have been able to put the towels on the horse next to the front room radiator.
Along with the cycling kit that turned out not to be dry after all...

So far it's still damp and tending slowly towards cardboard.
Timing imbalance also means it's only 2 bath towels that have been washed, and I own enough bath towels that I can continue this experiment for another 3 showers.

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Polar Bear on 01 November, 2021, 07:07:47 am
If you live in an older property which might be subject to cold spots and even possible dampness, get a decent dehumidifier.  Not only does it deal with the dampness, not only can you dry your laundry using one cheaper than a tumble dryer, but also because it reduces humidity so your conventional heating system will be marginally more effective warming drier air.

We are happy to wear extra clothing and run the heating for less time than most as well as keep the thermostat set lower.   

Also, why do so many people wear outer garments just the once or use a bath towel just the once before washing them?   Or am I just a dirty minger?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Polar Bear on 01 November, 2021, 07:12:52 am
Hmmm. I have just realised that I am being wasteful.

I need to change my baking schedule to ensure that it coincides with the cooking of other food using the oven.  This way I don't need to heat it from cold twice a day on baking day and, if I bake bread later in the day it will have a warming effect on the kitchen which in turn will keep the radiators off and save a bit more there.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 01 November, 2021, 08:26:18 am
I might have ranted once or twice about colleagues who complain about the office being cold - but wear a T shirt (or equivalent). Usually it is the men.
Women might, in general, get cold easier, but my observation is that most of my female colleagues will add some extra layers (then complain it is too cold).

Modern tumble driers are heat-reclaiming pumps. I'm really unconvinced that a dehumidifier, in a slightly draughty house, is going to be more efficient.

I think there are two key factors to saving energy at home;
Wear a sweater or thermals indoors
Always have the house a bit on the cool side. If you have hot rooms, or heat it up some of the time, then your body will never adapt.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 November, 2021, 08:37:38 am
Damp, condensation and mould would be one of the problems with heating the person not the building. Though they can't stop the rain or fix the roof.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 01 November, 2021, 09:11:52 pm
Quote
As far as I was able to find out, nobody has published a research report on the evolution of the average room temperature in winter throughout recent history. Today, the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE) recommends an indoor winter temperature between 21 and 23 degrees Celsius (70 to 73.5°F). A Dutch report (.pdf, in dutch) mentions a rise in average winter indoor temperature from 20° C in 1984 to 21° C in 1992. David MacKay mentions an average room temperature of 13° Celsius (55°F) in the UK in 1970.
Fragmentary data but perhaps broadly indicative.

tho I have no data to back this up. I would wager that while rooms are warmer now than they were 20/40/60 years ago. Heating them to that level uses less energy, and emits less. Due to efficiencies in sealing, insulation, building design, and heating technology.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 November, 2021, 09:14:59 pm
Unfortunately those efficiencies don't really apply to the vast majority of British buildings. I think we might have discussed this already.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 01 November, 2021, 09:16:54 pm
The average British home must have got more efficient over the last few decades purely due to new homes being built to a more efficient standard dragging the average up.
A bit.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 01 November, 2021, 09:50:38 pm
Damp, condensation and mould would be one of the problems with heating the person not the building. Though they can't stop the rain or fix the roof.

Also, heating the person doesn't heat the air they're breathing.  You can't warm clothes your way out of temperature-induced asthma.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 November, 2021, 10:02:16 pm
If you live in an older property which might be subject to cold spots and even possible dampness, get a decent dehumidifier.  Not only does it deal with the dampness, not only can you dry your laundry using one cheaper than a tumble dryer, but also because it reduces humidity so your conventional heating system will be marginally more effective warming drier air.

We are happy to wear extra clothing and run the heating for less time than most as well as keep the thermostat set lower.   

Also, why do so many people wear outer garments just the once or use a bath towel just the once before washing them?   Or am I just a dirty minger?

I possess 4 bath towels.
A wool jumper will do a week.

The heating is barely on, the house sits at a nice comfortable 18C with only the occasional blast of the boiler.  This is actually a problem in the bathroom as the towel rail is next to never on so the towels on it don't quite dry out enough for day 2 and don't have the back up warmth to hide it.

My experience of dehumidifiers is in drying rooms at hostels and mountaineering huts, they create smelly sandpaper.

I have now been able to fold 2 sheets of bath towel sized sandpaper into a stack and dump it in the press with the boiler to do the last little bit of finishing off.

My woolie booly 2 socks are still drying...
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: robgul on 02 November, 2021, 07:48:28 am
If you live in an older property which might be subject to cold spots and even possible dampness, get a decent dehumidifier.  Not only does it deal with the dampness, not only can you dry your laundry using one cheaper than a tumble dryer, but also because it reduces humidity so your conventional heating system will be marginally more effective warming drier air.

We are happy to wear extra clothing and run the heating for less time than most as well as keep the thermostat set lower.   

Also, why do so many people wear outer garments just the once or use a bath towel just the once before washing them?   Or am I just a dirty minger?

I possess 4 bath towels.
A wool jumper will do a week.

The heating is barely on, the house sits at a nice comfortable 18C with only the occasional blast of the boiler.  This is actually a problem in the bathroom as the towel rail is next to never on so the towels on it don't quite dry out enough for day 2 and don't have the back up warmth to hide it.

My experience of dehumidifiers is in drying rooms at hostels and mountaineering huts, they create smelly sandpaper.

I have now been able to fold 2 sheets of bath towel sized sandpaper into a stack and dump it in the press with the boiler to do the last little bit of finishing off.

My woolie booly 2 socks are still drying...

I'm in the process of remedying that issue by retro-fitting electric elements in the CH system towel rails - with the use of time clocks (or something like Hive) we can have the towel rails on independently of the CH - admittedly it's more for summer use when the CH is off rather than winter.   
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: neilrj on 02 November, 2021, 08:12:18 pm
If you live in an older property which might be subject to cold spots and even possible dampness, get a decent dehumidifier.  Not only does it deal with the dampness, not only can you dry your laundry using one cheaper than a tumble dryer, but also because it reduces humidity so your conventional heating system will be marginally more effective warming drier air.

We are happy to wear extra clothing and run the heating for less time than most as well as keep the thermostat set lower.   

Also, why do so many people wear outer garments just the once or use a bath towel just the once before washing them?   Or am I just a dirty minger?

I possess 4 bath towels.
A wool jumper will do a week.

The heating is barely on, the house sits at a nice comfortable 18C with only the occasional blast of the boiler.  This is actually a problem in the bathroom as the towel rail is next to never on so the towels on it don't quite dry out enough for day 2 and don't have the back up warmth to hide it.

My experience of dehumidifiers is in drying rooms at hostels and mountaineering huts, they create smelly sandpaper.

I have now been able to fold 2 sheets of bath towel sized sandpaper into a stack and dump it in the press with the boiler to do the last little bit of finishing off.

My woolie booly 2 socks are still drying...

I'm in the process of remedying that issue by retro-fitting electric elements in the CH system towel rails - with the use of time clocks (or something like Hive) we can have the towel rails on independently of the CH - admittedly it's more for summer use when the CH is off rather than winter.

Aren't bathroom rads on the hot water circuit any more?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 02 November, 2021, 09:59:13 pm
Hot Water Circuit?

Combi-Boilers mean the hot water circuit triggers the heating of the water by flow detection (often set far too high... well mine is can be filling a 1l pan in 2seconds before its on), so the towel rad needs to be on the heating circuit.
But if you have a room thermostat controlling when it's on and off, you're only getting warm towels when your chosen room is cold.
Room temp sensing, Boiler controlling TRVs would help I suppose.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 November, 2021, 10:01:38 pm
Hot Water Circuit?

Combi-Boilers mean the hot water circuit triggers the heating of the water by flow detection (often set far too high... well mine is can be filling a 1l pan in 2seconds before its on), so the towel rad needs to be on the heating circuit.
But if you have a room thermostat controlling when it's on and off, you're only getting warm towels when your chosen room is cold.
Room temp sensing, Boiler controlling TRVs would help I suppose.

I thought if you had a thermostatic radiator valves, you had to have at least one radiator in the house without one, just in case the boiler is fired up, but the radiators are doing nothing. In the central heating systems I've setup we always did this with the bathroom radiator.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Diver300 on 02 November, 2021, 11:12:41 pm
Hot Water Circuit?

Combi-Boilers mean the hot water circuit triggers the heating of the water by flow detection (often set far too high... well mine is can be filling a 1l pan in 2seconds before its on), so the towel rad needs to be on the heating circuit.
But if you have a room thermostat controlling when it's on and off, you're only getting warm towels when your chosen room is cold.
Room temp sensing, Boiler controlling TRVs would help I suppose.

I thought if you had a thermostatic radiator valves, you had to have at least one radiator in the house without one, just in case the boiler is fired up, but the radiators are doing nothing. In the central heating systems I've setup we always did this with the bathroom radiator.

J
Modern systems have a bypass valve that opens a bit to let some water through if all the radiators are shut off. https://www.bes.co.uk/heating-ventilation/central-heating/valves/bypass/ (https://www.bes.co.uk/heating-ventilation/central-heating/valves/bypass/)

As long as some water flows through the boiler, all of it will be at close to the same temperature and it will shut off when hot without damage. If no water flows, part of it can boil before the sensor notices that it's got too hot.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: robgul on 03 November, 2021, 08:03:10 am
If you live in an older property which might be subject to cold spots and even possible dampness, get a decent dehumidifier.  Not only does it deal with the dampness, not only can you dry your laundry using one cheaper than a tumble dryer, but also because it reduces humidity so your conventional heating system will be marginally more effective warming drier air.

We are happy to wear extra clothing and run the heating for less time than most as well as keep the thermostat set lower.   

Also, why do so many people wear outer garments just the once or use a bath towel just the once before washing them?   Or am I just a dirty minger?

I possess 4 bath towels.
A wool jumper will do a week.

The heating is barely on, the house sits at a nice comfortable 18C with only the occasional blast of the boiler.  This is actually a problem in the bathroom as the towel rail is next to never on so the towels on it don't quite dry out enough for day 2 and don't have the back up warmth to hide it.

My experience of dehumidifiers is in drying rooms at hostels and mountaineering huts, they create smelly sandpaper.

I have now been able to fold 2 sheets of bath towel sized sandpaper into a stack and dump it in the press with the boiler to do the last little bit of finishing off.

My woolie booly 2 socks are still drying...

I'm in the process of remedying that issue by retro-fitting electric elements in the CH system towel rails - with the use of time clocks (or something like Hive) we can have the towel rails on independently of the CH - admittedly it's more for summer use when the CH is off rather than winter.

Aren't bathroom rads on the hot water circuit any more?

Not in this house they're not - nor in our previous house.   

The way the circuits run it was clearly installed by a lazy plumber - or poorly desgned.    We have 8 ground floor radiators that are fed from the circuit upstairs and have no means of draining other than manually the cracking the valve and using a bucket.

To be be more efficient a house should have (at least) 3 separately controlled circuits:  downstairs CH, upstairs CH (more than 1 if more storeys) and HW.    Installing pipework/controls to do that is pretty simple and shouldn't cost much more.

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ian on 03 November, 2021, 09:27:10 am
Don't knock it, whoever did ours actually put some of the exposed heating pipework outside of the house (there's a mezzanine extension, so instead of tunnelling the pipes, they went straight out through the exterior wall, added a 90 bend, then and up the outside and into the extension).

The bathroom radiator works fine on the HW circuit though so we have toasty dry towels.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: DuncanM on 03 November, 2021, 10:55:12 am
I've been doing loads of reading/youtubing about reducing energy use at home, but what I'd really like is someone with more knowledge than me to produce a report with itemized improvements and guestimate costs. Also who I could ask specific questions of (eg 3 floor house - ground floor always cold, top floor always too hot). How does one go about finding such a person (preferably one who isn't trying to sell stuff)?

We've kinda haphazardly ended up with solar PV and an EV, but still have a gas boiler (old school non-condenser type and no space for condenser pipework), and the house always seems to run humid, so there have to be a bunch of different technologies that we could use to be more efficient, save carbon/money and reduce the chances of damp.
Personally, I'd keep the house about 21 degrees given the choice, but my wife complains of cold when Tado says it's 23 degrees (she has an oil filled electric radiator in her office and so it's 26 degrees in there right now!!!), and my daughter would prefer it to be about 17 degrees.  ::-)
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 03 November, 2021, 01:52:16 pm
I've been doing loads of reading/youtubing about reducing energy use at home, but what I'd really like is someone with more knowledge than me to produce a report with itemized improvements and guestimate costs. Also who I could ask specific questions of (eg 3 floor house - ground floor always cold, top floor always too hot). How does one go about finding such a person (preferably one who isn't trying to sell stuff)?

https://www.gov.uk/buy-sell-your-home/energy-performance-certificates

Alternatively the Energy Saving Trust directs residents of England (?) here: https://www.simpleenergyadvice.org.uk/
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 03 November, 2021, 02:28:16 pm
What I do love is that they tell you that should should carry out improvements listed on your EPC in the order they are recommended. So for us that would be:
Room-in-roof insulation Cost £1,500 - £2,700 Typical saving/yr £251
Cavity wall insulation Cost £500 - £1500 Typical saving/yr £37
Floor insulation (suspended floor) £800-1200 Typical saving/yr £71
Low energy lighting for all fixed outlets £40 Typical saving/yr £52
Solar water heating £4-8k Typical saving/yr £31
Solar photovoltaic panels, 2.5 kWp £3500-5500 Typical saving/yr £310

Which to me should be done based on bang for buck and least disruption:
1. LED lighting
2. Cavity wall
Room in roof/flat roof makes sense but I'm not planning to get it done until the flat roof actually needs replacing (although I might change my mind once we've actually experienced a winter in this house)
Floor insulation - for the amount of upheaval that will generate you can get stuffed for the sake of £71/yr. Maybe if we ever get new carpets.
Solar water heating - the gas CH boiler was brand new in December so doesn't make sense to me to ditch that already, from an emissions caused by manufacturing POV.
Solar PV - yes it's expensive but it would make up for having a crappy electric hob and shower (despite having a combi boiler)
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 03 November, 2021, 02:31:31 pm
and the house always seems to run humid, so there have to be a bunch of different technologies that we could use to be more efficient, save carbon/money and reduce the chances of damp.
Personally, I'd keep the house about 21 degrees given the choice, but my wife complains of cold when Tado says it's 23 degrees (she has an oil filled electric radiator in her office and so it's 26 degrees in there right now!!!), and my daughter would prefer it to be about 17 degrees.  ::-)
If your house is humid your wife might feel warmer if it's less humid, so a dehumidifier may be a good thing there, made a massive difference to me.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Wowbagger on 03 November, 2021, 03:04:30 pm
We always think the house feels much colder on a wet day than a dry one, for a given temperature in the front room.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: robgul on 03 November, 2021, 03:46:03 pm
What I do love is that they tell you that should should carry out improvements listed on your EPC in the order they are recommended. So for us that would be:
Room-in-roof insulation Cost £1,500 - £2,700 Typical saving/yr £251
Cavity wall insulation Cost £500 - £1500 Typical saving/yr £37
Floor insulation (suspended floor) £800-1200 Typical saving/yr £71
Low energy lighting for all fixed outlets £40 Typical saving/yr £52
Solar water heating £4-8k Typical saving/yr £31
Solar photovoltaic panels, 2.5 kWp £3500-5500 Typical saving/yr £310

Which to me should be done based on bang for buck and least disruption:
1. LED lighting
2. Cavity wall
Room in roof/flat roof makes sense but I'm not planning to get it done until the flat roof actually needs replacing (although I might change my mind once we've actually experienced a winter in this house)
Floor insulation - for the amount of upheaval that will generate you can get stuffed for the sake of £71/yr. Maybe if we ever get new carpets.
Solar water heating - the gas CH boiler was brand new in December so doesn't make sense to me to ditch that already, from an emissions caused by manufacturing POV.
Solar PV - yes it's expensive but it would make up for having a crappy electric hob and shower (despite having a combi boiler)

Swapping old style bulbs (filament and halogen) for all LED bulbs in the house wasn't much money* for us and shows a significant reduction in electricity consumption. The LED lights give off almost no heat, unlike the old halogens.

* Shop around as pricing for bulbs is a bit of a jungle . .  we had to replace 20 halogen ceiling lights that had transformers but the new units were only about £4.50 each ( ledbulbs.co.uk is pretty keen on price and service)     
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 03 November, 2021, 04:41:53 pm
Solar water heating - the gas CH boiler was brand new in December so doesn't make sense to me to ditch that already, from an emissions caused by manufacturing POV.

The usual BRITISH approach to solar water heating would be to pre-heat the water so the gas boiler has less work to do.  With combi boilers, this can be limited by the boiler's ability to modulate down.  The workaround for that is a thermostatic mixer valve diluting the solar heated water with cold before feeding it to the boiler.

Economically, it's marginal at best, unless you can side-step most of the installation costs by DIYing, or can use large quantities of lukewarm water (ie. a swimming pool).
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Jurek on 03 November, 2021, 05:30:27 pm
I switched on the CH briefly, before leaving the house at 05:50 this morning.
Only I neglected to turn it off.
House was toasty when I returned about half an hour ago.

Contender for the 'I'm such a fecking div' thread. No?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 03 November, 2021, 08:34:50 pm
Hot Water Circuit?

Combi-Boilers mean the hot water circuit triggers the heating of the water by flow detection (often set far too high... well mine is can be filling a 1l pan in 2seconds before its on), so the towel rad needs to be on the heating circuit.
But if you have a room thermostat controlling when it's on and off, you're only getting warm towels when your chosen room is cold.
Room temp sensing, Boiler controlling TRVs would help I suppose.

I thought if you had a thermostatic radiator valves, you had to have at least one radiator in the house without one, just in case the boiler is fired up, but the radiators are doing nothing. In the central heating systems I've setup we always did this with the bathroom radiator.

J

That is what I thought too... my one has a TRV, so far no boiler explosion... thankfully.
I've got that TRV cranked right up and the bathrooms lucky to get over 20c, not that I have any idea what max on the TRV equates to in reality.

I've currently got a multimeter, thermocouple, notepad and some dials attached to boiler pipes
Return was 5c below output, but the boiler does have a deliberately inefficient start up mode that gets the internal temperature up to 80


Modern systems have a bypass valve that opens a bit to let some water through if all the radiators are shut off. https://www.bes.co.uk/heating-ventilation/central-heating/valves/bypass/ (https://www.bes.co.uk/heating-ventilation/central-heating/valves/bypass/)

As long as some water flows through the boiler, all of it will be at close to the same temperature and it will shut off when hot without damage. If no water flows, part of it can boil before the sensor notices that it's got too hot.

That would explain it.

What I do love is that they tell you that should should carry out improvements listed on your EPC in the order they are recommended. So for us that would be:

Which to me should be done based on bang for buck and least disruption:
1. LED lighting
2. Cavity wall
Room in roof/flat roof makes sense but I'm not planning to get it done until the flat roof actually needs replacing (although I might change my mind once we've actually experienced a winter in this house)
Floor insulation - for the amount of upheaval that will generate you can get stuffed for the sake of £71/yr. Maybe if we ever get new carpets.
Solar water heating - the gas CH boiler was brand new in December so doesn't make sense to me to ditch that already, from an emissions caused by manufacturing POV.
Solar PV - yes it's expensive but it would make up for having a crappy electric hob and shower (despite having a combi boiler)

Yeah, I've had a nosey at the neighbours houses in the EPC database that are basically the same, interesting how different they all are.
Some have the obligatory "Wind Turbine" in the list, others don't despite being more efficient and clearly not included by the assessor

So with mine starting on 72/70 and a potential of 87/87
1) Floor insulation, 73/73 saves 45 quid a year
2) Draughtproofing, 74/74 saves 22 quid a year
3) Solar Water Heating, 76/76 - 28 quid
4) 2.5kWp Solar PV, 87/87 - 318 quid

Now... correct me if I'm being deluded here, but the 10 point increase from Solar PV and saving of £318 a year is by far the most obvious one to do first.
I mean if I start at 72/70 that's up to 82/80ish. I'd probably go for something a bit bigger with the aim of adding batteries when affordability is reached, after all half the year I cook when it's dark.

My assumption is due to the only draughts I can find being from the window vents that I did the draught proofing when I swapped the crap folding doors for a uPVC door between kitchen and sunporch.
Then again the sunporch is in the floor space and is unheated for now I'll take the hit of running a 1.5kw electric heater just before tea this winter and work out how to minimize loss from windows later, the wee brother just has to turn up with the stuff he's got sitting in his garage.

I need to lift a carpet to see if I can find a way of seeing under the floor too.


What's also interesting is there's no mention of low power lighting... the house was entirely lit with hallogen and CFLs for an EPC written September last year that's a bit shit so I guess the guides haven't been updated for the assessors to cover that.


The solar water interests me, the black painted garage door was too hot to touch before I shoved a layer of silver bubble wrap on the back, downside is the garage doesn't get so warm in winter, though it loses it anyway.  The front rooms are toasty on sunny days and balanced with the back rooms on the north on not so sunny days.

Seems to me the most appropriate approach would be to get PV in first with space left to get Solar Heating added later, that way I could use a tank and immersion heater and use that to heat the water during the day, downside being on days when the sun doesn't bother.

Attic space seems handy, and this house wasn't built with putting a room in the roof in mind. (Hall too narrow for stairs, space between roof trusses to wander around about 2 hall widths)

That or the upheaval of adapting the house such that an ASHP has a chance of doing its job



Oh I found this for TRVs
0 = Off
* = 7°C
1 = 10°C
2 = 15°C
3 = 20°C
4 = 25°C
5 = 30°C

that'll help me

although the rads are still toasty... this is going to be a late night
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 03 November, 2021, 09:14:20 pm
Ha our house is 58/52 currently
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 03 November, 2021, 09:26:22 pm
The solar water interests me, the black painted garage door was too hot to touch before I shoved a layer of silver bubble wrap on the back, downside is the garage doesn't get so warm in winter, though it loses it anyway.  The front rooms are toasty on sunny days and balanced with the back rooms on the north on not so sunny days.


I am genuinely surprised to see solar hot water on there. it's generally a lot easier these days to install an immersion heater in the water tank, and dump spare solar energy into that.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 04 November, 2021, 01:00:03 am
I'm struggling to find out what's more efficient, a single pv panel running a 3kwh immersion heater or the similar sized heat collector and exchanger.

However It appears that a single solar heating panel should be enough for 2 peoples hot water demand and 1 PV panel won't power the immersion heater on its own.

Roof space efficiency come into play, I'd use it all given the chance... But I need to remember that currently I'm skint and it's 4 years till my mortgage is due to be rejigged... And I won't be getting anything close toy current rate by then (maybe should have gone 10yr...)

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 04 November, 2021, 01:02:20 am
Oh and water tank? This place was built in the mid-90s, DHW from gas from day 1...
Tame plumber needed...

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: iandusud on 04 November, 2021, 09:19:04 am
Going back to the original question is it being asked from a money saving point of view or from being a "responsible citizen in the face of the climate emergency" point of view?
From a money saving POV I think adding insulation gives the best return on investment. I've just added 170mm to the 100mm of insulation in our loft. The effect of this was immediately noticeable as witnessed at the meal table the following day when our daughter said "I was hot in bed last night" and my wife replies "so was I", and then the penny dropped and my wife said "could that be anything to do with the extra loft insulation"? (This was despite a drop in overnight temperature outside). Going up into the loft to do some finishing off the the temperature differential is noticeably bigger.
From a "responsible citizen in the face of the climate emergency" POV I think anything and everything individuals do is worthwhile, not only because they add up but also because the involve a change of mindset that challenges others.
My wife and I got rid of our car over a year ago, initially as an experiment to see how we would get on, and we've never looked back. We cycle almost everywhere or take the train for longer journeys. We are have an ASHP installed in the next few weeks to replace our old gas boiler. As it is our thermostat is set at 16C most of the time and turned up to 18C in the evenings. We don't need more. We don't heat our bedroom unless temperatures drop significantly outside.
I hear and understand and agree with the argument that it's the big polluters who need to change their behaviour if we are to see the sort of wholesale change that we need, but I also believe that we all have a personal responsibility to do the right thing, and if there is a big enough ground swell governments will capitulate - how do you think we ended up with Brexit?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Polar Bear on 04 November, 2021, 09:29:29 am
I wi be interested to hear how you get on with your ASHP.  Our boiler works fine for now and we only have the central heating on for 3 hours in the evening (not consecutive) but we'd like to ditch gas for heating if at all possible. 

I agree on insulation:  when I did the loft a few years back the effect was astounding but this was part of works to install DG, replace the roof, etc.  I have been doing internal wall insulation on our solid walls and, as we have cavities under our suspended wooden floors downstairs, insulating under floors one room at a time.  Each time we do a room the effect is obvious.

I have one downstairs room left to do but the pandemic and availability of sighted assistants as well as building supplies stopped that happening this year.  Roll on 2022...

We are also looking at a six panel pv array which is the best we can do on our ne/sw alighned victoriana mid-terrace.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 04 November, 2021, 10:04:48 am
Ha our house is 58/52 currently

My flat's 85/78 according to the home report we had done last month. We have single-glazed sash windows and no insulation, so I'm not really sure what they base it on. We seem to get lots of points for having TRVs and LED bulbs...???
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: aidan.f on 04 November, 2021, 10:05:15 am
I'm planning underfloor insulation as part of living room refurb. PB Any practical tips please?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 04 November, 2021, 10:25:02 am
I'm planning underfloor insulation as part of living room refurb. PB Any practical tips please?

I just followed the insulation material company's instructions. Used sheep wool insulation (non-itchy, environmentally sound, but does smell of sheep) and membrane. Stapled membrane to beams, insulation above, taped all seams.

The room doesn't have any heating but isn't hugely cooler than the rest of the house. If we use it in winter we light the solid fuel stove in there.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: iandusud on 04 November, 2021, 11:02:33 am
I wi be interested to hear how you get on with your ASHP.  Our boiler works fine for now and we only have the central heating on for 3 hours in the evening (not consecutive) but we'd like to ditch gas for heating if at all possible. 

I agree on insulation:  when I did the loft a few years back the effect was astounding but this was part of works to install DG, replace the roof, etc.  I have been doing internal wall insulation on our solid walls and, as we have cavities under our suspended wooden floors downstairs, insulating under floors one room at a time.  Each time we do a room the effect is obvious.

I have one downstairs room left to do but the pandemic and availability of sighted assistants as well as building supplies stopped that happening this year.  Roll on 2022...

We are also looking at a six panel pv array which is the best we can do on our ne/sw alighned victoriana mid-terrace.
I'll be happy to report back after this winter. Our decision to install ASHP is primarily in an effort to further reduce our carbon footprint. Having got rid of the car (which is generally the biggest element in a household CF) the next biggest emitter of CO2 was our gas CH, particularly as we have a very old gas boiler which must be very inefficient. Hopefully this means that we won't notice too much of an increase in our energy bills. We are also taking advantage of the Renewable Heating Incentive to subsidise the cost before it is replaced with the grant being introduced next year, which is less interesting financially despite the big song and dance the chancellor made about it!
Our next step will almost certainly be solar panels but we'll have to wait on that one for now (we fitted them to our last house and were very happy with them, even if they cost a lot more in those days). Hopefully the government will do something to incentivise SPs soon, as opposed to the retrograde steps they have taken on this front. Solar energy is plentiful and free. I constantly hear the argument that they only produce electricity during the day, which is valid, but it would be easy to have a cheaper daytime tariff for electricity if there is a surplus, getting people to charge their cars on cheap rate for example as well as the benefit to businesses that run 9-5 etc. I can see no reason why all new builds should not have to have SPs fitted as standard. The extra cost on the price of a new build would be peanuts. Sorry for the rant.  :)
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 04 November, 2021, 11:18:22 am
Because we were contacted by our local council, due to Mrs M receiving a 'qualifying benefit', it seems we are eligible for the latest iteration of the Green Homes Grant.
Leicestershire County Council have subcontracted this to Eon.
Eon sent one of their subcontracted assessors to do the requisite Home Energy Survey so we'd get an EPC (It seems we are D).
Eon subcontract the works to their subcontractors (who presumably have subcontractors) ::-)

The assessor confessed to being a dissatisfied energy salesman who'd retrained online during the lockdown to be an energy assessor, Eon being the second company he'd worked with so far.  :facepalm:

On the plus side - he did finally settle my very longstanding question about the walls on the main part of our house as being solid brick (they look as though they ought to be cavity, but are too old to be).

However, he couldn't assess out loft insulation as it was partly boarded "can't see it - can't assess it" (I think it's 'pretty good' but he's supposed to be the expert).
There's no insulation in the ceiling of our extension - I think this is a major issue, but he couldn't assess it because he couldn't get to see what's there (it's a tiny hatch - yes you could get through it, but it ain't easy).
He dismissed 'Smart Heating Controls' on his experience with Hive which he admitted he didn't really understand. He didn't even consider the cavity wall of the extension.
He waxed lyrical about PV Solar panels (based on the fact he'd sold them when they first came out) but then let out that it only Thermal Solar available on the scheme.
So - not impressed.

I'm waiting for the report, which based on what he was saying will suggest:
1) Underfloor insulation (we have suspended wooden floors)  - I'm not taking up vast areas of expensive, expensively laid, laminate flooring unless they reinstate it (which they won't)
2) External Wall Insulation - which I'm tempted to go for if it's offered
3) Solar Thermal Panels - which I'd consider IF they offer a system which will work with my 3 year old combi-boiler AND they'll put the tank in the loft.
4) I'm hoping that the Smart Heating Controls make an appearance because the electronic radiator valves are starting to show their age and I'd rather Boris pays for a Tada system than me (I live in hope).
5) I'm hopeful that the cavity wall on the extension does get included because I'm pretty sure it's not insulated - it's a small area, but if they won't consider the ceiling, the walls will be worth doing.

I await the report and a visit from a 'Technical Surveyor'
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 04 November, 2021, 11:35:34 am
We have a hive system.
Main benefits; I can see the current temperature. We have turned down the heat settings (mornings and evenings) considerably, on finding that we were 'comfortable' when the hallway was at 17. So the evening and morning CH boost is now at 17 - if we want it warmer, we turn it up for an hour or two.

It is very easy to control the CH by turning up the temperature.

This can be done from phone app or from the sensor device. The sensor is battery powered and small, so it is easy to move into another room if we want the temp in that room to drive the heating.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: robgul on 04 November, 2021, 12:38:43 pm
We have a hive system.
Main benefits; I can see the current temperature. We have turned down the heat settings (mornings and evenings) considerably, on finding that we were 'comfortable' when the hallway was at 17. So the evening and morning CH boost is now at 17 - if we want it warmer, we turn it up for an hour or two.

It is very easy to control the CH by turning up the temperature.

This can be done from phone app or from the sensor device. The sensor is battery powered and small, so it is easy to move into another room if we want the temp in that room to drive the heating.

Another vote for Hive - we've had it for about 5 years (3.5 with a Combi boiler and 1.5 with a pressurised boiler + tank system) - excellent controls and boost option etc . . .  and we've added light bulbs and plug/sockets for timing various things.   Being able to switch stuff on/off from anywhere in the world using the phone is pretty useful - e.g. turning on heating when we're on the way home (ditto the coffee machine  :thumbsup:,  as I've mentioned before) 
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 04 November, 2021, 01:44:28 pm
We have a hive system.
Main benefits; I can see the current temperature. We have turned down the heat settings (mornings and evenings) considerably, on finding that we were 'comfortable' when the hallway was at 17. So the evening and morning CH boost is now at 17 - if we want it warmer, we turn it up for an hour or two.

It is very easy to control the CH by turning up the temperature.

This can be done from phone app or from the sensor device. The sensor is battery powered and small, so it is easy to move into another room if we want the temp in that room to drive the heating.

Another vote for Hive - we've had it for about 5 years (3.5 with a Combi boiler and 1.5 with a pressurised boiler + tank system) - excellent controls and boost option etc . . .  and we've added light bulbs and plug/sockets for timing various things.   Being able to switch stuff on/off from anywhere in the world using the phone is pretty useful - e.g. turning on heating when we're on the way home (ditto the coffee machine  :thumbsup:,  as I've mentioned before)

Yeah, I forgot that one.
I think that we save considerable diesel through being able to turn up the heating when we need it, instead of heating an empty house. Even the "brr, it is cold this morning, turn the heating on early" option from bed.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 04 November, 2021, 02:39:29 pm
I see that robots for applying expanding foam under your floorboards are now a thing. Can't see how that is good from a rot perspective though ..
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 04 November, 2021, 03:53:13 pm
I see that robots for applying expanding foam under your floorboards are now a thing. Can't see how that is good from a rot perspective though ..

That is bonkers.

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Polar Bear on 04 November, 2021, 04:33:30 pm
I see that robots for applying expanding foam under your floorboards are now a thing. Can't see how that is good from a rot perspective though ..

I suppose the devil is in the detail.  Surely there is some form of moisture management within the chemical cocktail?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: aidan.f on 04 November, 2021, 05:34:15 pm
From wot I have read a vapour barrier is used on the warm side under the floor covering. Wool is recommended for older structures.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: robgul on 05 November, 2021, 07:57:52 am
Hot Water Circuit?

Combi-Boilers mean the hot water circuit triggers the heating of the water by flow detection (often set far too high... well mine is can be filling a 1l pan in 2seconds before its on), so the towel rad needs to be on the heating circuit.
But if you have a room thermostat controlling when it's on and off, you're only getting warm towels when your chosen room is cold.
Room temp sensing, Boiler controlling TRVs would help I suppose.

I thought if you had a thermostatic radiator valves, you had to have at least one radiator in the house without one, just in case the boiler is fired up, but the radiators are doing nothing. In the central heating systems I've setup we always did this with the bathroom radiator.

J

That is what I thought too... my one has a TRV, so far no boiler explosion... thankfully.
I've got that TRV cranked right up and the bathrooms lucky to get over 20c, not that I have any idea what max on the TRV equates to in reality.

I've currently got a multimeter, thermocouple, notepad and some dials attached to boiler pipes
Return was 5c below output, but the boiler does have a deliberately inefficient start up mode that gets the internal temperature up to 80


Modern systems have a bypass valve that opens a bit to let some water through if all the radiators are shut off. https://www.bes.co.uk/heating-ventilation/central-heating/valves/bypass/ (https://www.bes.co.uk/heating-ventilation/central-heating/valves/bypass/)

As long as some water flows through the boiler, all of it will be at close to the same temperature and it will shut off when hot without damage. If no water flows, part of it can boil before the sensor notices that it's got too hot.

That would explain it.

What I do love is that they tell you that should should carry out improvements listed on your EPC in the order they are recommended. So for us that would be:

Which to me should be done based on bang for buck and least disruption:
1. LED lighting
2. Cavity wall
Room in roof/flat roof makes sense but I'm not planning to get it done until the flat roof actually needs replacing (although I might change my mind once we've actually experienced a winter in this house)
Floor insulation - for the amount of upheaval that will generate you can get stuffed for the sake of £71/yr. Maybe if we ever get new carpets.
Solar water heating - the gas CH boiler was brand new in December so doesn't make sense to me to ditch that already, from an emissions caused by manufacturing POV.
Solar PV - yes it's expensive but it would make up for having a crappy electric hob and shower (despite having a combi boiler)

Yeah, I've had a nosey at the neighbours houses in the EPC database that are basically the same, interesting how different they all are.
Some have the obligatory "Wind Turbine" in the list, others don't despite being more efficient and clearly not included by the assessor

So with mine starting on 72/70 and a potential of 87/87
1) Floor insulation, 73/73 saves 45 quid a year
2) Draughtproofing, 74/74 saves 22 quid a year
3) Solar Water Heating, 76/76 - 28 quid
4) 2.5kWp Solar PV, 87/87 - 318 quid

Now... correct me if I'm being deluded here, but the 10 point increase from Solar PV and saving of £318 a year is by far the most obvious one to do first.
I mean if I start at 72/70 that's up to 82/80ish. I'd probably go for something a bit bigger with the aim of adding batteries when affordability is reached, after all half the year I cook when it's dark.

My assumption is due to the only draughts I can find being from the window vents that I did the draught proofing when I swapped the crap folding doors for a uPVC door between kitchen and sunporch.
Then again the sunporch is in the floor space and is unheated for now I'll take the hit of running a 1.5kw electric heater just before tea this winter and work out how to minimize loss from windows later, the wee brother just has to turn up with the stuff he's got sitting in his garage.

I need to lift a carpet to see if I can find a way of seeing under the floor too.


What's also interesting is there's no mention of low power lighting... the house was entirely lit with hallogen and CFLs for an EPC written September last year that's a bit shit so I guess the guides haven't been updated for the assessors to cover that.


The solar water interests me, the black painted garage door was too hot to touch before I shoved a layer of silver bubble wrap on the back, downside is the garage doesn't get so warm in winter, though it loses it anyway.  The front rooms are toasty on sunny days and balanced with the back rooms on the north on not so sunny days.

Seems to me the most appropriate approach would be to get PV in first with space left to get Solar Heating added later, that way I could use a tank and immersion heater and use that to heat the water during the day, downside being on days when the sun doesn't bother.

Attic space seems handy, and this house wasn't built with putting a room in the roof in mind. (Hall too narrow for stairs, space between roof trusses to wander around about 2 hall widths)

That or the upheaval of adapting the house such that an ASHP has a chance of doing its job



Oh I found this for TRVs
0 = Off
* = 7°C
1 = 10°C
2 = 15°C
3 = 20°C
4 = 25°C
5 = 30°C

that'll help me

although the rads are still toasty... this is going to be a late night

Something that my brain can't quite comprehend is how TRVs which are (obviously) next to the heated radiator can decide/understand how warm the room is - with the notional numbered settings - the heat from the nearby radiator must affect the sensor?   (Physics wasn't my strong suit at school!)

I've been fiddling with trying to balance our radiators for a couple of days and it does seem to be an inexact science - with probably a bit of guesswork and luck thrown in.  I'm using a multimeter with a temperture probe and adjusting lockshield valves.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Frank9755 on 05 November, 2021, 01:29:39 pm

Something that my brain can't quite comprehend is how TRVs which are (obviously) next to the heated radiator can decide/understand how warm the room is - with the notional numbered settings - the heat from the nearby radiator must affect the sensor?   (Physics wasn't my strong suit at school!)

I've been fiddling with trying to balance our radiators for a couple of days and it does seem to be an inexact science - with probably a bit of guesswork and luck thrown in.  I'm using a multimeter with a temperture probe and adjusting lockshield valves.

I was thinking about this yesterday and decided that they can only give relative rather than absolute adjustments.  So they can make a room warmer relative to other rooms, by opening the valve a bit more, or cooler. 

What they can't do - which is what I was wanting to think they could - is keep the room I am working in at XX degrees regardless of the rest of the house.

As I see it, they are not thermostats.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 05 November, 2021, 02:14:08 pm

Something that my brain can't quite comprehend is how TRVs which are (obviously) next to the heated radiator can decide/understand how warm the room is - with the notional numbered settings - the heat from the nearby radiator must affect the sensor?   (Physics wasn't my strong suit at school!)

I've been fiddling with trying to balance our radiators for a couple of days and it does seem to be an inexact science - with probably a bit of guesswork and luck thrown in.  I'm using a multimeter with a temperture probe and adjusting lockshield valves.

I was thinking about this yesterday and decided that they can only give relative rather than absolute adjustments.  So they can make a room warmer relative to other rooms, by opening the valve a bit more, or cooler. 

What they can't do - which is what I was wanting to think they could - is keep the room I am working in at XX degrees regardless of the rest of the house.

As I see it, they are not thermostats.

All they can do it respond to the temperature of the air near your Rad. There is no intelligence in the TRV.

Assuming your boiler/heat source has the power to bring all rads up to the max water temperature (usually below 65C), then a TRV fully open will permit the water the keep flowing. Any TRV setting below that just starts restricting the water flow when the room is cold. They are affected by the temperature of the water; if the rads are undersized for the room, the TRV will just stay open until the room heats up.

Once a rad is at the same temperature as the boiler water, you may as well shut down the water flow through the rad anyway.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: grams on 05 November, 2021, 02:57:07 pm
The cooler the air in a room is, the longer it will take for the TRV to heat up enough to switch off, and it will cool down quicker and switch back on sooner. So the radiator output will be a function of room temperature, and it should reach a stable state where room temperature stays in a certain band.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: rogerzilla on 05 November, 2021, 03:00:53 pm
With the size of rads fitted by most builders, you need a circulating temp of > 80 deg C (which makes a condensing boiler only partially condensing).  Also, the 63 deg C circulating temp used to measure boiler efficiency is totally useless for heating a hot water cylinder to 60 deg C.  It's a bit of a con.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 05 November, 2021, 06:55:46 pm
Has anyone used the Hive TRVs? We have a Hive thermostat, but I'm curious to see whether the TRVs would make a difference.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: robgul on 05 November, 2021, 07:19:21 pm
Has anyone used the Hive TRVs? We have a Hive thermostat, but I'm curious to see whether the TRVs would make a difference.

Yes - and no - I bought one to see whether the combination of being able to time and control temperature in rooms not used much would work.  Complete rubbish - they simply do not work - if you look at the Hive Forum there are endless posts about the software not being for purpose.  The other "undocumented feature" is that they can only be set/scheduled etc from the Hive app and not for the Hive PC access (that being my preferred option - about 3 hours of trying to get the PC to recognise the valves . . .  and then the so-called helpdesk told me that it was app only)

The valve went back for a refund - shame as if it had worked I'd have bought 2 or 3 more to use with rooms that have timed or infrequent use.

What I did get instead was a Eqiva Model N valve that is programmable for time - that works in the room that's used for about an hour a day (my wife, so I'm told? - does yoga in there each afternoon) - the idea is that the valve opens the rad about 30 minutes ahead of time and if the remainder of the house is calling for heat then that room gets some heat - and it then closes the rad about 10 minutes before the room becomes unused again.   The valve is about £20 or a bit more from Amazon (I bought mine from Sotel in Germany, 3 or 4 days delivery with no problems)
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Diver300 on 05 November, 2021, 07:28:09 pm
Something that my brain can't quite comprehend is how TRVs which are (obviously) next to the heated radiator can decide/understand how warm the room is - with the notional numbered settings - the heat from the nearby radiator must affect the sensor?   (Physics wasn't my strong suit at school!)
There will be a big effect from the radiator. The TRVs are normally low down, so the hot air rising from the radiator* will mean that the bottom of the radiator and the TRV will be generally in room air, which will reduce the effect somewhat. The physical construction of the TRV will be such the sensitivity to air temperature will be as much as possible, and radiation from the radiator and conduction from the pipe will be minimised.

The heat from the radiator will tend to mean that the TRV will need several degrees of room temperature change to go from fully on to fully off, so that will reduce their effectiveness a bit. Perhaps a valve will be fully on with the room at 15 °C and the radiator fully hot, and will be fully off with the room at 25 °C and the radiator cold. The gap between those numbers is a guess, and TRVs may be better than that. For a standard TRV, where will have to be a few degrees difference to go from open to cold, even ignoring the heating from the radiator.

That doesn't mean that TRVs are useless, as they will reduce the heating in hotter rooms quite effectively, just not perfectly.

Without TRVs, and with a typical water temperature of 60 °C, a radiator in a room at 25 °C will put out 80% as much heat as it would into a room at 15 °C, so the TRV is reducing the heat around 5 times as fast.

Electronic TRVs probably compensate for the heating from the radiator. I don't know for sure, but I have been very impressed with the Honeywell Evohome system, and it seems to control very well. The system obviously knows if the radiator is on or not, so it can measure the fairly fast temperature rise that the TRV will see when the radiator turns on, and compensate for that rise. It only needs software. The mechanical separation between the temperature sensor and the valve is larger in an electronic TRV than in a conventional one. Also the valve can be driven fully open to fully closed when the computer says so, without needed to heat from the room to melt the wax in the operating element, so it can be a more precise control.

* House radiators don't radiate much. If they did, they would be black to improve radiation. House radiators put heat into the room by conduction / convection.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 06 November, 2021, 04:28:19 pm
Well, I just stuck my head down through the hatch under the front door. That was interesting. Plenty crawl space so potentially the ability to insulate the floor from below. And install cat5 cable if needed.
The photo below is of the wall directly under the front door, it's north facing. It appears to be wearing a fur coat of efflorescence. It doesn't exactly make me feel that getting cavity wall insulation would be a good idea, although that's just what I can see from the hatch, I didn't go having a crawl about. Also, IANA cavity wall insulation surveyor.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51659016241_30f9dc4ced.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mGVXKP)IMG_20211106_155422 (https://flic.kr/p/2mGVXKP) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr

This photo shows what I assume is a clay demijohn and then on closer inspection it looks like someone's put a bagged up floor cleaning device or something under there.  ???
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51659016236_f437e8ef7b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mGVXKJ)IMG_20211106_155031 (https://flic.kr/p/2mGVXKJ) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr

Further inspection some time...
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: rogerzilla on 06 November, 2021, 04:32:57 pm
Hypocaust ftw
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 06 November, 2021, 04:48:48 pm
wow that is serious efflorescence.

Do you have air vents into the under floor space?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 06 November, 2021, 05:11:36 pm
There are air bricks, I assume they're under the floor...
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Polar Bear on 06 November, 2021, 05:19:35 pm
The air bricks should vent into the cavity space, i.e. below the floorboards but above the soil.  Ours are situated at joist level.

I insulated part of our underfloor from below.  It was a dirty and difficult job even with 9 courses of brickwork space to work in.  Yours looks a bit more cramped..  I have done / am doing the rest from above.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Snakehips on 06 November, 2021, 07:19:16 pm
Well, I just stuck my head down through the hatch under the front door. That was interesting. Plenty crawl space so potentially the ability to insulate the floor from below. And install cat5 cable if needed.
The photo below is of the wall directly under the front door, it's north facing. It appears to be wearing a fur coat of efflorescence. It doesn't exactly make me feel that getting cavity wall insulation would be a good idea, although that's just what I can see from the hatch, I didn't go having a crawl about. Also, IANA cavity wall insulation surveyor.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51659016241_30f9dc4ced.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mGVXKP)IMG_20211106_155422 (https://flic.kr/p/2mGVXKP) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr

This photo shows what I assume is a clay demijohn and then on closer inspection it looks like someone's put a bagged up floor cleaning device or something under there.  ???
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51659016236_f437e8ef7b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mGVXKJ)IMG_20211106_155031 (https://flic.kr/p/2mGVXKJ) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr

Further inspection some time...

This deserves a thread all its own, The View Under My Floorboards or something similar, or has there already been one? I have a similar space under mine and I'm contemplating a visit in the near future. Might take a camera next time.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 06 November, 2021, 08:12:51 pm
This deserves a thread all its own, The View Under My Floorboards or something similar, or has there already been one? I have a similar space under mine and I'm contemplating a visit in the near future. Might take a camera next time.

Oh, we should have a photo of the stack of bricks and random debris that supports our landlord-quality floor.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Pingu on 06 November, 2021, 11:57:44 pm
This deserves a thread all its own, The View Under My Floorboards or something similar, or has there already been one? I have a similar space under mine and I'm contemplating a visit in the near future. Might take a camera next time.

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=121458  ;)
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: DuncanM on 08 November, 2021, 01:51:26 pm
The EPC for our house was done in 2012 (67 D) - since then we've installed low energy lights, Tado (including the remote TRVs), just under 4kW of solar PV including an iBoost to heat the hot water, and some improved windows. Looking at it, the top 2 recommendations are cavity wall insulation and a new jacket for the hot water tank, at lots of money and almost nothing, so I don't know why we didn't do the latter - will get on that one.

The smart meter that was installed only works as a dumb meter - the installer said they would need to come back to do something else to it but they never did, and it's inaccessible because there's a (broken) car in the garage now. Ultimately, I'd like a battery and a heat pump system - then we could get entirely off gas, and use a lot of the solar we generate during the warmer months, including to power the EV.  That would seem both financially prudent and carbon saving. However, I'd also like to make the house more pleasant to live in, and that's why I'd like to talk to an expert. The EPC people don't really seem all that knowledgeable about what is actually possible and what is beneficial (eg maybe an air-air heat pump downstairs would mean we don't need much heating for a huge amount of the year and would allow my wife to keep her office toasty, but they don't qualify for any sort of grant (because they can be run in reverse for aircon) so don't appear in any guidance I can find). Also, if humidity needs to be brought down, then there has to be a way to recover the heat while dumping the moisture outside (rather than just opening windows), but that sort of thing doesn't appear anywhere on any list.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: fruitcake on 08 November, 2021, 02:08:31 pm
If a house has a South facing rear wall and sufficient land (i.e. a garden), and the owner has the funds, a substantial amount of heat can be gained directly through a conservatory, if that conservatory is designed wiith solar gain in mind. That means having a way of stopping the place overheating during summer. 

IIRC therewas a house in Nottinghamshire that was built to passivhaus standard with a two-storey conservatory as the main heat source. It had a concrete floor as heat storage. The conservatory was vented to allow the owners to reduce solar gain in the warm season. The owners were an Australian couple who designed and built the house and documented it in a book (which is how I know about it), but alas I don't remember the title or authors. Others here may know of it. It was built to test what was possible in the UK, and, for me, it demonstrated the potential efficacy of solar gain through a conservatory.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: DuncanM on 08 November, 2021, 02:20:52 pm
It would be interesting to see a comparison between solar PV and heat pump vs solar gain from a conservatory. My guess is the former would be more efficient and easier to modulate heat (but much less nice to sit in! :) )
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 08 November, 2021, 02:22:14 pm
If a house has a South facing rear wall and sufficient land (i.e. a garden), and the owner has the funds, a substantial amount of heat can be gained directly through a conservatory, if that conservatory is designed wiith solar gain in mind. That means having a way of stopping the place overheating  during summer. 

IIRC there's a house Nottinghamshire that was built to passivhaus standard with a two-storey conservatory was the main heat source. It had a concrete floor as heat storage. The conservatory was vented to allow the owners to reduce solar gain in the warm season. The owners were an Australian couple who designed and built the house and documented it in a book (which is how I know about it), but alas I don't remember the title or authors. Others here may know of it. It was built to test what was possible in the UK, and, for me, it demonstrated the potential efficacy of solar gain through a conservatory.

There are a bunch of them in York.

The architect told the owners (it was an owner builder scheme) that they wouldn't need central heating. Several didn't believe him. Last I heard they regretted spending the money because they never need heating.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Polar Bear on 08 November, 2021, 02:58:26 pm
If a house has a South facing rear wall and sufficient land (i.e. a garden), and the owner has the funds, a substantial amount of heat can be gained directly through a conservatory, if that conservatory is designed wiith solar gain in mind. That means having a way of stopping the place overheating  during summer. 

IIRC there's a house Nottinghamshire that was built to passivhaus standard with a two-storey conservatory was the main heat source. It had a concrete floor as heat storage. The conservatory was vented to allow the owners to reduce solar gain in the warm season. The owners were an Australian couple who designed and built the house and documented it in a book (which is how I know about it), but alas I don't remember the title or authors. Others here may know of it. It was built to test what was possible in the UK, and, for me, it demonstrated the potential efficacy of solar gain through a conservatory.

Are you thinking of Hockerton?  A superb project.  I visited years ago and still harbour dreams of a Hockerton Hobbit House.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 08 November, 2021, 04:43:58 pm
This sounds like something I used to try while home alone during SCE study leave, shut south facing porch windaes and doors and see how hot I could get it.

Record was 40 odd.
It never gets all that warm in winter, like bringing clothes horse into house instantly not warm but that house is sheltered by trees from the south.

My place has the porch on the north, warm in summer... Run heater to get heat pump dryer up to operating temperature range erm now...

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: fruitcake on 08 November, 2021, 06:59:35 pm
What I remember about the house is that it looked conventional for its locale; they didn't want it to look like an eco-house. That meant choosing the local brick for the exterior, and other conventional materials. Their choice of a 1m thick concrete floor as the heat store may not be considered sustainable nowadays, but maybe the massive carbon footprint of concrete wasn't as widely recognised when this project was built (which was the 1990s IIRC). Amusingly the house was too cold for the first twelve months because it took that long for the 1m concrete slab to fully dry. After that it sat above 15C all year round with no fuel inputs. The other interesting thing was that the house was designed to be off-grid for all services including water. That meant rainwater filtration and storage in the basement and pumps to raise that water to the bathroom and kitchen.

I've since seen houses designed for solar gain using the same physical principle (large windows and a huge thermal mass) with 50cm thick stone internal walls as the heat store.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 08 November, 2021, 07:09:06 pm
DuncanM I was reading about the gadgets on this page last night.
https://www.heritage-house.org/damp-and-condensation/solving-damp-problems-in-your-home/controlling-humidity.html
Which made me think of the things I posted about a couple of months back, single room MVHR, like this sort of thing. They sound like a good idea but no idea if they are any good or not...https://www.fastlec.co.uk/blauberg-heat-recovery
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 08 November, 2021, 08:54:38 pm
Meanwhile I am waiting for a local company to come & drill GBFO holes in the walls and install a bathroom fan and cooker hood so we can stop showering and cooking with the windows open. Not coming til the 30th Nov though.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 09 November, 2021, 07:50:43 am
I still think that the biggest problem we face in the UK is the expectation that, when it is 0C outside, every room in our house will be over 21C.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Polar Bear on 09 November, 2021, 08:59:39 am
It's because folk want to wear their flouncy fashions and not even give a first thought to the consequences of burning gas 18 hours a day let alone a second thought.  It never ceases to amaze me how people flit between overly warm houses and overly warm cars even in the depths of winter.

There will be a reckoning for many, poor and not so poor with the costs of gas and electricity this winter. 

We run our CH for three hours a day in the evening and not continuously.  It seems more than enough to be honest save for those exceptions when the temperature stays stubbornly below zero for an extended period.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 09 November, 2021, 12:28:10 pm
My graph informs me that our heating has run for over 3 hours on two days this month, with an average of 95min/day, to maintain an indoor average temperature around 20C.  That's higher than usual for the outdoor temperature because barakta is currently living in the (relatively cold) dining room, and we're pissing all the heat out of the downstairs a few times a week by doing the wheelchair ramp dance.

If it were properly cold, it would be a lot higher.  But as rental scum we can't insulate anything, and have to make do with intelligent use of heating.

(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/random/Screenshot_at_2021_11_09_12_29_20.png)
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ian on 09 November, 2021, 12:40:39 pm
I confess I like to be warm (our heating is set to 20.5 degrees in the evening, but that's the hallway and makes the rest of the house around 20 degrees (it gets warmer upstairs). I will wear a jumper and trousers, but I draw the line at getting dressed up as a polar bear for purposes other than scaring everyone's favourite global maple-shagging scaredy beavers, the Canadians.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 09 November, 2021, 02:20:59 pm
My heating app has started telling me runtimes.
27hrs 20mins ish last week, Sunday despite being mild was worst at nearly 5h

That for 18 degrees during the day and 14 overnight (I can't sleep if there's constant noise so I want the boiler off)

Tuesday was the day I attempted to balance the radiators so had it going full welly for a bit. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211109/208f3f828fc8f99daf2e25bfa12a2677.jpg)

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: salar55 on 09 November, 2021, 02:32:20 pm
My heating app has started telling me runtimes.
27hrs 20mins ish last week, Sunday despite being mild was worst at nearly 5h

That for 18 degrees during the day and 14 overnight (I can't sleep if there's constant noise so I want the boiler off)

Tuesday was the day I attempted to balance the radiators so had it going full welly for a bit. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211109/208f3f828fc8f99daf2e25bfa12a2677.jpg)

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk


Are your internal walls not stuffed with soundproofing/insulation to deaden noise and helping  to have rooms at different temps. 🤔
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: DuncanM on 09 November, 2021, 02:34:49 pm
DuncanM I was reading about the gadgets on this page last night.
https://www.heritage-house.org/damp-and-condensation/solving-damp-problems-in-your-home/controlling-humidity.html
Which made me think of the things I posted about a couple of months back, single room MVHR, like this sort of thing. They sound like a good idea but no idea if they are any good or not...https://www.fastlec.co.uk/blauberg-heat-recovery
Those look great, I will have to investigate.  Thanks for the links :) .
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 09 November, 2021, 08:35:07 pm
I still think that the biggest problem we face in the UK is the expectation that, when it is 0C outside, every room in our house will be over 21C.

Why?

I am getting so so so so so fucking pissed off with people thinking we shouldn't be warm. It's 2021 and we have both the means and the technology such that we can sit in our homes at 21+°C when it's -20°C outside, and with zero emissions.

It is simply criminal that house builders have not been building better quality housing in the last four decades. We've known about high quality insulation, sealing, and the rest of the Passivhaus standard since as far back as the 80's. With such a building I should be able to be my comfortable 23°C with just the input of a single candle.

It's gross negligence on behalf of the government that more is not being done to make zero emission heating possible for more people. it's gross incompetence that efforts to improve insulation have failed to reach the levels we need through poor design of the bureaucracy behind it.

But, in all this, we should not be shaming people for wanting to be warm and comfortable. If you wanna turn the heating off and wrap up in a blanket, go for it. But don't go trying to shame others.

Yes space heating is approx 17% of emissions. But the only thing stopping this being fixed is capitalism. The technology is there. It's just not evenly distributed. And the only thing stopping that is ideological belief in the scarcity of money. There's no excuse for it.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 09 November, 2021, 09:13:19 pm
My graph informs me that our heating has run for over 3 hours on two days this month, with an average of 95min/day, to maintain an indoor average temperature around 20C.  That's higher than usual for the outdoor temperature because barakta is currently living in the (relatively cold) dining room, and we're pissing all the heat out of the downstairs a few times a week by doing the wheelchair ramp dance.

If it were properly cold, it would be a lot higher.  But as rental scum we can't insulate anything, and have to make do with intelligent use of heating.

(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/random/Screenshot_at_2021_11_09_12_29_20.png)
This geek appreciates your nice graph. :)
I'm quite impressed the temp of your home is so stable for such a short period of heating. Our bedroom was down at 14.5°C at 6am one morning this weekend (am guessing that was the morning after it had been blowing a hoolie all night) after the heating going off the evening before.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 09 November, 2021, 11:11:07 pm
Are your internal walls not stuffed with soundproofing/insulation to deaden noise and helping  to have rooms at different temps. 🤔

Dinnae be daft, it's 2 layers of plasterboard either side and some wood hauding it aw up.

I'd need individual room thermostats for that anyway, I'd been randomly messing around with the lockhead shields because they've got plastic caps that let me adjust them and I can't help my self but fiddle with shit.
Some rooms were still cold with a south wind long after the room with the thermostat is up to temperature, and v.v. with a north wind.


If I want that... then I need to find a plot, a shitload of money and pronto before my dad's too aged to do the architect/project management side of things... because there's no fucking way that I... squirrel.

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 10 November, 2021, 01:26:09 pm
I still think that the biggest problem we face in the UK is the expectation that, when it is 0C outside, every room in our house will be over 21C.

Why?

I am getting so so so so so fucking pissed off with people thinking we shouldn't be warm. It's 2021 and we have both the means and the technology such that we can sit in our homes at 21+°C when it's -20°C outside, and with zero emissions.

It is simply criminal that house builders have not been building better quality housing in the last four decades. We've known about high quality insulation, sealing, and the rest of the Passivhaus standard since as far back as the 80's. With such a building I should be able to be my comfortable 23°C with just the input of a single candle.

It's gross negligence on behalf of the government that more is not being done to make zero emission heating possible for more people. it's gross incompetence that efforts to improve insulation have failed to reach the levels we need through poor design of the bureaucracy behind it.

But, in all this, we should not be shaming people for wanting to be warm and comfortable. If you wanna turn the heating off and wrap up in a blanket, go for it. But don't go trying to shame others.

Yes space heating is approx 17% of emissions. But the only thing stopping this being fixed is capitalism. The technology is there. It's just not evenly distributed. And the only thing stopping that is ideological belief in the scarcity of money. There's no excuse for it.

J

Houses not being insulated decently is a separate issue from people having unrealistic temperature expectations.

Bodies adapt - when I lived in australia my body was used to the heat. every year, summer started, there would be a day when I *felt* the change, and then the heat was less suffocating afterwards.

I've been living up in the Hebrides for a good few months now and my body is used to the generally cooler conditions, partly because we don't heat our house all the time. MrsC has also adapted.

Sure we have better technology. Saying that we should always be keeping houses at 21C 'because we have the technology' isn't much different from saying we should all the time use  motorised transport  'because we have the technology'.

Both acts (heating and using cars) have an environmental cost. People (in the west) have become accustomed to using technology to adapt the environment rather than letting bodies do some of the adaption.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: DuncanM on 10 November, 2021, 01:33:19 pm
I don't think we should always be keeping our houses at 21 degrees, but always keeping them at a temperature that is comfortable seems reasonable.
Different people run according to different thermostats, and I think we need to accept that a reasonable temperature for one person might be unbearably cold for another.

We can fix the eco cost of heating houses if we want to. If we choose not to, that's not the fault of the person for whom 20 degrees makes them feel cold, and them being cold is not going to save the planet.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 10 November, 2021, 01:41:46 pm


Houses not being insulated decently is a separate issue from people having unrealistic temperature expectations.

Bodies adapt - when I lived in australia my body was used to the heat. every year, summer started, there would be a day when I *felt* the change, and then the heat was less suffocating afterwards.

I've been living up in the Hebrides for a good few months now and my body is used to the generally cooler conditions, partly because we don't heat our house all the time. MrsC has also adapted.

Sure we have better technology. Saying that we should always be keeping houses at 21C 'because we have the technology' isn't much different from saying we should all the time use  motorised transport  'because we have the technology'.

Both acts (heating and using cars) have an environmental cost. People (in the west) have become accustomed to using technology to adapt the environment rather than letting bodies do some of the adaption.

I lived for a number of years in a house that in the middle of winter would be about 12°C inside. You don't adjust. You're just paralysed by cold. You can't function cos of all the clothing and blankets needed to simply exist.

You might be comfortable at temps under 20°C. But that doesn't mean you should impose that on others. We should strive for better quality housing so people can be comfortable without destroying the planet. Esp as the technology already exists, it's just not being used because capitalism.

I now live in a home with good insulation, and where the heating is based on an efficient shared city heat system. It can be done. And it should be done. Simply telling people to be uncomfortable isn't going to work. Making it people's individual responsibility isn't going to work.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 10 November, 2021, 03:42:02 pm


Houses not being insulated decently is a separate issue from people having unrealistic temperature expectations.

Bodies adapt - when I lived in australia my body was used to the heat. every year, summer started, there would be a day when I *felt* the change, and then the heat was less suffocating afterwards.

I've been living up in the Hebrides for a good few months now and my body is used to the generally cooler conditions, partly because we don't heat our house all the time. MrsC has also adapted.

Sure we have better technology. Saying that we should always be keeping houses at 21C 'because we have the technology' isn't much different from saying we should all the time use  motorised transport  'because we have the technology'.

Both acts (heating and using cars) have an environmental cost. People (in the west) have become accustomed to using technology to adapt the environment rather than letting bodies do some of the adaption.

I lived for a number of years in a house that in the middle of winter would be about 12°C inside. You don't adjust. You're just paralysed by cold. You can't function cos of all the clothing and blankets needed to simply exist.

You might be comfortable at temps under 20°C. But that doesn't mean you should impose that on others. We should strive for better quality housing so people can be comfortable without destroying the planet. Esp as the technology already exists, it's just not being used because capitalism.

I now live in a home with good insulation, and where the heating is based on an efficient shared city heat system. It can be done. And it should be done. Simply telling people to be uncomfortable isn't going to work. Making it people's individual responsibility isn't going to work.

J
I accept that not everyone can adapt. However most can and do.

Before we moved here I was concerned about how my partner would cope. She has systemic arthritis and hasn't coped will with cold.

She's surprised me. Working out in the barn on pottery for hours at and (an unheated, drafty, very very damp barn). When she puts the heating on, she chooses a temp of about 18-19 C.

Quote
You don't adjust. You're just paralysed by cold. You can't function cos of all the clothing and blankets needed to simply exist.
I accept that was your experience. It isn't mine.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ian on 10 November, 2021, 03:55:02 pm
We all adapt to a degree, otherwise no one would be able to move from London to Singapore and subsequently walk down the street. I lived in Georgia one summer, I got used to the heat (I wouldn't say it was pleasant), but I also lived through the notably coldest winter in Ottawa a few years before (froze my ears solid).
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: FifeingEejit on 10 November, 2021, 06:31:42 pm
It's not simply a case of adaptation. (QG has made the rest of this point so I provide only an example)
I have a cycling friend who will not remove his arm and leg warmers until it's over 20C
I think about putting them on around 10C

Despite being born in South Yorkshire he has lived within 5 miles of me from around Primary 1 to until last January when I moved slightly further south.

Body Composition is part of it, but even when I wiz skinny (I've gained an amount of weight every injury that I then seem unable to lose possibly due to cake addiction) my temperature tolerance was barely different from now.
Yet I am not one of those "shorts all year" people you get round these parts, no sod that my lower legs get cold.

Adaptation does exist, you'll get used to it being mild all year and bloody windy out in the atlantic but it's likely within what is already your tolerance range.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: iandusud on 10 November, 2021, 07:13:33 pm
What I do think is irresponsible is to heat a home in winter to the point where you are in a T shirt. We have our thermostat at 16C during the day and turn it up to 18C in the evening when we are less active and tired. I would never think of not wearing warm clothing in winter and am staggered by the temperatures to which many others heat their homes.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: fboab on 10 November, 2021, 07:47:12 pm
I think it's hypocritical to claim that personal transport is an individual responsibility when that's easy for you, living in a city in a flat country, but that indoor heating can be solved by technology because you like the heating on. That seems like picking and choosing what works for you.

I can put up with heating at about 17°C but I'm driving an ICE vehicle with just me in it for 14km each way because its 300m climbing and cold, wet windy and horrible out there a lot of the time, and riding is harder work than I can cope with while working 40 hours a week.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ian on 10 November, 2021, 08:03:08 pm
It's all a bit first world though (and yes, shoot me down, I'm sitting here in a house heated to 20.5 degrees) – if you live in a home in many parts of the world, you don't get central heating or a/c.

I'm not saying we have to suffer, but it is clear that humans can adapt to modest changes in temperature (as can any warm-blooded animal, our entire physiology is designed for this).

I think we all forget how awesome our first-world lives are. Much of the world still doesn't live in a place where they can tell Alexa to make it warmer. And even in places where you can, an increasing number can't afford to.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 10 November, 2021, 08:08:00 pm
What I do think is irresponsible is to heat a home in winter to the point where you are in a T shirt. We have our thermostat at 16C during the day and turn it up to 18C in the evening when we are less active and tired. I would never think of not wearing warm clothing in winter and am staggered by the temperatures to which many others heat their homes.

I'm currently sat in a merino base layer, wrapped in a shawl. But sure.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 10 November, 2021, 08:11:41 pm
This thread seems to have turned into the other thread on a similar matter in fight club, maybe we can move the arguing back in there?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ian on 10 November, 2021, 08:16:11 pm
Shut up. I hate people with warmth-generating cats and I'm going to argue with them on the internet. Filthy fur huggers.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 10 November, 2021, 08:18:12 pm
 :demon: :hand: :thumbsup: :smug: :facepalm: ??? ;D :-X :-\ ;)
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: PaulF on 10 November, 2021, 11:18:02 pm
Perhaps drifting the thread back on topic I just installed a “chimney sheep” a custom lambs wool plug to reduce the drought up the chimney which made a massive improvement.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: barakta on 10 November, 2021, 11:54:04 pm
We have a hideous blanket someone bought us that is wrapped in a bin bag and performing a similar purpose up the chimney in our computer room. Same for the bedroom one which we also boarded up after the neighbours house works over the joint roof caused loads of crap, dust etc to fall down into our bedroom (Thanks for warning us BEFORE you did the work, not; fuckers).

When we had single glazed windows we had that plastic film that you can tape round windows which did make a bit of a difference to heat loss from the rooms in this drafty shabby rented house. It cost a few quid a year and was more about comfort as well as possibly reducing our heating bills.

I think our smart heating (home brew) probably saves money/energy too cos we try and keep things stable and avoid heating rooms we are not using. I get cold easily, no matter how many layers I wear (especially how I'm unable to walk and sitting in a wheelchair all day). I do already use hot water bottles and a small heated blanket thing and agree I wouldn't put the heating on till I'd added clothing layers. I live in thermal leggings under clothes and neck scarves from ~October to ~May or thereabouts. I always have felt the cold, even as a child.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: tonyh on 11 November, 2021, 08:13:46 am
https://www.heritage-house.org/damp-and-condensation/solving-damp-problems-in-your-home/controlling-humidity.html

I'm a bit uneasy about that website when it suggests that lead paint contains metallic lead:

"The paint, Dear Watson, the paint.... Its Victorian.  Lead paint... Er... Lead - you know the stuff your car battery terminals are made of, that conducts electricity REALLY well! The probe was stuck in the paint, and conducting beautifully."

Also not convinced by:

"The bottom line:  If timber is dry, it won't rot, and beetle won't eat it."

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 11 November, 2021, 08:59:14 am
"The bottom line:  If timber is dry, it won't rot, and beetle won't eat it."

That is utter twaddle. Beetles love dry wood.


Back to the chimney comments, I recently took out the (original 70s) fireplace and put a inset stove in its place. Not only is the stove more efficient, it blocks the chimney so that there is no draught (when the stove is not lit).
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Jurek on 11 November, 2021, 09:20:20 am
Much, if not most, of that site  appears to slag off the work, principals, qualification and equipment used by others - with comparatively little information about what their own product does.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Jaded on 11 November, 2021, 09:29:29 am
It slags off dehumidifiers. Saying they only deal with symptoms. Their machine(s) also deal with symptoms. To deal with the cause, don't have hot showers and baths and don't cook, wash clothes, etc.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 11 November, 2021, 07:31:42 pm
Perhaps drifting the thread back on topic I just installed a “chimney sheep” a custom lambs wool plug to reduce the drought up the chimney which made a massive improvement.
I was pondering one of them as well.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: rogerzilla on 14 November, 2021, 09:48:09 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59161949

Utter bollocks - modern washing machines don't last 16 years!  Most fail shortly after the warranty expires.  They are built to a price and most are now unrepairable anyway if the bearings fail (sealed drum). 
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 November, 2021, 10:47:52 am
“How modern is modern?” asked Mr Larrington before RZ gets flattened by a tsunami of anecdata…
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 November, 2021, 10:53:16 am

https://fullycharged.show/podcasts/podcast-132-the-right-to-repair-with-helen-czerski/

The guy on this podcast claims 8 years as typical life of your average washing machine these days.

J
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: PaulF on 14 November, 2021, 10:57:08 am
Perhaps drifting the thread back on topic I just installed a “chimney sheep” a custom lambs wool plug to reduce the drought up the chimney which made a massive improvement.
I was pondering one of them as well.

I’d definitely recommend it.  Our problem, albeit a first world one, is balancing the temperature in the rest of the house. As a consequence the hall where the thermostat lives and host to the only non-TRV radiator is a lot warmer which means that the thermostat cuts in sooner making other rooms cooler…
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 14 November, 2021, 11:25:21 am
Perhaps drifting the thread back on topic I just installed a “chimney sheep” a custom lambs wool plug to reduce the drought up the chimney which made a massive improvement.

To be honest, a drought up the chimney is probably better than the alternative. :P
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: PaulF on 14 November, 2021, 12:05:46 pm
Perhaps drifting the thread back on topic I just installed a “chimney sheep” a custom lambs wool plug to reduce the drought up the chimney which made a massive improvement.

To be honest, a drought up the chimney is probably better than the alternative. :P

I’d have got away with it if it weren’t for those pesky kids ;D
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: grams on 14 November, 2021, 01:09:11 pm
Utter bollocks - modern washing machines don't last 16 years!  Most fail shortly after the warranty expires.  They are built to a price and most are now unrepairable anyway if the bearings fail (sealed drum).

A quick google suggests 2-4 million are sold each year, and there are 28 million households in the UK, which gives a lifetime of 7-14 years.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: campagman on 15 November, 2021, 08:40:47 pm
Perhaps drifting the thread back on topic I just installed a “chimney sheep” a custom lambs wool plug to reduce the drought up the chimney which made a massive improvement.
I was pondering one of them as well.

I’d definitely recommend it.  Our problem, albeit a first world one, is balancing the temperature in the rest of the house. As a consequence the hall where the thermostat lives and host to the only non-TRV radiator is a lot warmer which means that the thermostat cuts in sooner making other rooms cooler…

This is similar to mine. The inlet valve on the non-TRV rad should only be open a half a turn so that rad warms up slowly. Worth a check.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: iandusud on 16 November, 2021, 07:04:13 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59161949

Utter bollocks - modern washing machines don't last 16 years!  Most fail shortly after the warranty expires.  They are built to a price and most are now unrepairable anyway if the bearings fail (sealed drum).
A few years ago I needed to buy a new washing machine and opted to buy a budget model. It came with a 2 year warranty and at just of 2 years it stopped working. I stripped it down to find that the motor brushes were worn out. I managed to bodge them to get the machine going again and went to the major retailer to order a new set of brushes. They took order and said they would call me when they were in. A week later I got a call to say that the brushes weren't available separately but they could supply a new motor at over £100 for a machine which cost less than £200 new. I took another look at the motor, noted the make and model, and did a bit of internet searching to discover that it was a very common motor used on many washing machines from all the major manufacturers, and a bit more searching led me to finding new brushes which cost me £2 inc postage. The moral of all this is that these machines are not marketed with the intention of them being repaired. The notion, regardless of the difference in cost between replacing a pair of brushes at £2 as opposed to replacing a machine at £200, that we should replace rather than repair is totally abhorrent to me. No wonder the planet is going down the tubes.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 16 November, 2021, 07:45:24 pm
That should all be stopping now with the right to repair laws.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57665593
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 16 November, 2021, 07:47:02 pm
Not that it changes the problem of what it costs to pay someone who knows what they're doing to come out and tell you that it'll be a £100 motor, and then come back and fit it.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Feanor on 16 November, 2021, 08:01:00 pm
Yes, I suspect they will get around the Right to Repair stuffs by making spares available, but at prices which make it uneconomic.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Tim Hall on 16 November, 2021, 08:31:34 pm
Some years ago we bought a washing machine designed for easy repair. Simple to swap out parts, possibly UK built maybe EU, I can't recall. They had two models, one with a 5 year guarantee, one with a 10 year guarantee. All this goodness came at a priced premium.  The company got into financial trouble, starting i think, with no money left in the guarantee pot, then folded completely.

I probably replaced the motor brushes once, then the next repair was uneconomic.

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: grams on 16 November, 2021, 11:43:18 pm
AIUI these days even cheapo models are brushless because the electronics to drive them have got so cheap.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: iandusud on 17 November, 2021, 07:32:57 am
Not that it changes the problem of what it costs to pay someone who knows what they're doing to come out and tell you that it'll be a £100 motor, and then come back and fit it.
Exactly. Even if they make spares available it will mean, as you say, that replacement a motor is available at £100 when all that is required is a pair of brushes, making repair not economically viable.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: ian on 17 November, 2021, 09:25:18 am
Spoke to someone the other week about our contrary dishwasher (this alone took two weeks) – he was a bit noncommital about a fix and then if he could get a replacement part, so we'd be punting a couple of hundred quid on a maybe. It actually started working again (till yesterday). It probably is just a glitchy power chip but getting it replaced is non-straightforward and it would certainly be less hassle just to buy a new one (it is eight years old).
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 17 November, 2021, 10:30:23 am
A shout out here to Blackwell and Denton of York.

I phoned them about the non-functioning washing machine, asking how much to call out.

He gave me a price, then detailed instructions on what to check before calling out, including the power off-sequence required to reset the status in the machine.

Kids followed the instructions and machine working again.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 November, 2021, 11:49:31 am
Not that it changes the problem of what it costs to pay someone who knows what they're doing to come out and tell you that it'll be a £100 motor, and then come back and fit it.
Exactly. Even if they make spares available it will mean, as you say, that replacement a motor is available at £100 when all that is required is a pair of brushes, making repair not economically viable.
So in fact they're already quite likely compliant with the law. It will change very little. And:
Quote
Only parts for "simple and safe" repairs will be available directly to consumers, including "door hinges on your washing machine or replacement baskets and trays for your fridge-freezers", he said.

"Other parts that involve more difficult repairs will only be available to professional repairers, such as the motor or heating element in your washing machine," he said.
So it would seem that motor parts might actually become less available.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 17 November, 2021, 01:10:49 pm
Not that it changes the problem of what it costs to pay someone who knows what they're doing to come out and tell you that it'll be a £100 motor, and then come back and fit it.
Exactly. Even if they make spares available it will mean, as you say, that replacement a motor is available at £100 when all that is required is a pair of brushes, making repair not economically viable.
So in fact they're already quite likely compliant with the law. It will change very little. And:
Quote
Only parts for "simple and safe" repairs will be available directly to consumers, including "door hinges on your washing machine or replacement baskets and trays for your fridge-freezers", he said.

"Other parts that involve more difficult repairs will only be available to professional repairers, such as the motor or heating element in your washing machine," he said.
So it would seem that motor parts might actually become less available.

And you can forget anything involving a lithium-ion battery.  Hazardous materials, innit.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: robgul on 18 November, 2021, 06:13:25 pm
May be a stupid question - we have a fixed deal with British Gas until 31 January 2022 - as it's approaching renewal I got a message today offering an "exclusive deal" to fix to 30 April 2023.  After a bit of spreadsheet work and looking at comparisons (the two main ones offered no deals) the BG deal looked good so I clicked the button to go with it.

Now, I assume - or am I wrong? - that the new deal kicks in at at the end of January 2022 . . . .   all the info from BG is confusing and unclear e.g. "you may not see the new tariff in your account for 9 days" . . .    I can't believe that it's not consecutive?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 18 November, 2021, 06:17:24 pm
If the new deal is less good than your current deal (I assume, given the current market) I could well believe it.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: robgul on 18 November, 2021, 06:53:48 pm
If the new deal is less good than your current deal (I assume, given the current market) I could well believe it.

That's what worries me - I do have 14 days to decline - I'll try and phone them tomorrow - and then if it isn't consecutive get onto the Ombudsman
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 18 November, 2021, 08:21:08 pm
If the new deal is less good than your current deal (I assume, given the current market) I could well believe it.

That's what worries me - I do have 14 days to decline - I'll try and phone them tomorrow - and then if it isn't consecutive get onto the Ombudsman
Does this apply?
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/10/martin-lewis--don-t-get-pressured-by-your-energy-firm-into-signi/

Some more explanation here
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/10/energy-bill-hikes-hit-millions-as-price-cap-rises-by-p139-yr---b/
I believe felstedrider also said the same a few pages or threads back
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: robgul on 18 November, 2021, 09:18:11 pm
If the new deal is less good than your current deal (I assume, given the current market) I could well believe it.

That's what worries me - I do have 14 days to decline - I'll try and phone them tomorrow - and then if it isn't consecutive get onto the Ombudsman
Does this apply?
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/10/martin-lewis--don-t-get-pressured-by-your-energy-firm-into-signi/

Some more explanation here
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/10/energy-bill-hikes-hit-millions-as-price-cap-rises-by-p139-yr---b/
I believe felstedrider also said the same a few pages or threads back

Hmm - not sure what all that means in our circumstances with our consumption in a fairly large house.  I think we are somewhat out of the top end of the cap.

The "exclusive deal" (fixed to April 23) is, obviously, more than we are paying now but considerably (about 45%) less than the "let us give you a quote" price which is a fix to December 2023 and has all sorts of cobblers about green stuff.

It really is a jungle - I shall phone them tomorrow and a) find out whether the exclusive April 2023 is consecutive or kicks in now, and  b) see what else they might offer . . . when we moved from AVRO (the late) amidst stacks of fraudulent charging issues from them the BG person offered a deal that wasn't a published one, at considerbly better rates.

The slight upside is that having now been in the house and seen a full year of consumption I have some good data to use for comparisions.  This house only uses gas for CH & HW - cooking is electric - whereas the previous house we cooked with a gas hob and electric oven . . . and the CH/HW boiler wasn't as efficient as here.

Not surprisingly looking at 3 of the comparison sites this evening, putting in our current tariff and accurate consumption figures, none of them would offer any deal at all.

Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 18 November, 2021, 09:48:49 pm
The price cap is nothing to do with your consumption, the cap is on the unit price.
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: robgul on 18 November, 2021, 10:06:35 pm
The price cap is nothing to do with your consumption, the cap is on the unit price.
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you

Sorry - I was confusing myself - it seems that we are paying rather less than the cap on the current fix to 31 Jan 22 and it looks like the exclusive deal to 30 Apr 23 is below the likely cap - both by some margin.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: neilrj on 18 November, 2021, 10:06:40 pm
Whenever I've changed supplier in the transfer window (50 day) I've always been transferred before the end of contract.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Pickled Onion on 18 November, 2021, 10:09:46 pm
The price cap is nothing to do with your consumption, the cap is on the unit price.
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you

Sorry - I was confusing myself - it seems that we are paying rather less than the cap on the current fix to 31 Jan 22 and it looks like the exclusive deal to 30 Apr 23 is below the likely cap - both by some margin.

What is the kWh price and standing charge you're being offered?
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Wowbagger on 20 November, 2021, 11:16:54 am
I've taken the temperature of the water in the tank, purely solar-heated.

A couple of days ago it was 29°C. This morning, after a much cloudier afternoon, 23°C. It's quite annoying, actually, as when the panel was fitted in 2005, I called the guy back because in the height of summer, our chimneys cast a shadow of the PV panel which drives the pump, and we were missing out on several hours' hot water a day. He shifted it to the bottom RH corner of the hot water panel and now, from mid-November onwards, next door's chimney casts a shadow over it in the mid-afternoon - the point at which the pane gets the best of the sun. I suspect that reduces the temperature of the water in the tank by a few degrees when it happens, but usually there are so few days in a year in which it makes any difference that it's not worth sorting out. The call out charge would mean that it would take a few centuries to pay for itself.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: MattH on 20 November, 2021, 02:19:44 pm
Quote
Only parts for "simple and safe" repairs will be available directly to consumers, including "door hinges on your washing machine or replacement baskets and trays for your fridge-freezers", he said.

Have you seen the price for replacement plastic drawers for upright freezers? £60 each last time I looked. All three of ours are past their best, if I wasn't happy with the duct tape fix it's getting on for cheaper to replace the freezer than buy drawers that should be single figures of pounds each.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Kim on 20 November, 2021, 05:25:02 pm
*Buy* replacement drawers?  Just go for a walk around the streets of Selly Oak (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=31801.msg2674850#msg2674850) until you find the right model...
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 21 November, 2021, 11:00:02 am
Brr, it was 13.4°C in the bedroom at kitty breakfast o'clock, and when I pointed the thermometer at the ceiling nearest the window it read 9°C.
Maybe I will be getting those flat roofs replaced after all (if HES are still doing 40% cashback).
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: andyoxon on 24 November, 2021, 06:46:21 pm
Currently 18C inside - OK with fleece on.

Relatively new thing, is shutting the kitchen door when the hob extractor fan is on, to cut down on warm house air loss...
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 24 November, 2021, 07:22:13 pm
Further evidence that the Guardian is actually cobbled together from YACF threads: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jan/14/cold-as-ice-how-to-stay-warm-without-whacking-up-the-heating
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 29 November, 2021, 07:17:05 pm
Finally got around to contacting HES last week and tonight to contacting 3 of the big insulation installers, so no doubt I will be getting spammed with phone calls tomorrow.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Tim Hall on 30 November, 2021, 04:38:11 pm
Finally got around to contacting HES last week and tonight to contacting 3 of the big insulation installers, so no doubt I will be getting spammed with phone calls tomorrow.
Years ago, a friend of mine was after double glazing. He did lots of research and plumped on $DOUBLEGLAZING_CO.

By coincidence, shortly afterwards he got cold called by $DOUBLEGLAZING_CO.  He broke their script by trying to explain, yes, he actually did want to buy their product.
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Polar Bear on 30 November, 2021, 04:57:44 pm
We have a lovely llama wool blanket which lurks on the sofa.  It's deceptively thin.  I love to wrap myself in it when there is a slight chill.  So snuggly, soft and warm.

mllePB seems to prefer putting about thirty layers of clothing on instead.  Weird.  😇
Title: Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 30 November, 2021, 06:22:09 pm
While the man who was installing our bathroom and kitchen extraction was out today I clambered up on the worktop to inspect the GBFO holes in the wall and ascertained that our cavity is 70mm deep.
And so far only 1 of the 3 companies I contacted has been in touch, to tell me they're not doing CWI right now. Weird.