Only boil water you need.
I've been a bit a bit poor at only boiling water I need of late, so am currently prefilling the container that the boiling water is for, with cold water, then adding it to the kettle to boil only that required.
Fortunately the kettle has a side window, with gradations down to 1 cup.
Queue up your oven cooking and baking to make best use of the oven.
You could do the same with hot water: all bath, shower and do the washing up around the same time to save heating the water for a long time or multiple times each day.
A couple of years ago I cut our lighting running costs by 94% by replacing all our 60w bulbs with LED bulbs.
Queue up your oven cooking and baking to make best use of the oven.
You could do the same with hot water: all bath, shower and do the washing up around the same time to save heating the water for a long time or multiple times each day.
A couple of years ago I cut our lighting running costs by 94% by replacing all our 60w bulbs with LED bulbs.
Nana used to do that with tin bath in front of coal fire. Mum, dad, kids all using the same bath water in front of fire before it cooled down.
Queue up your oven cooking and baking to make best use of the oven.
Do the washing up with cold water. Soak the dishes first, then rinse off.
Yeah also wash your hands in cold water.
Oven cooking os less efficient than a microwave but the excess energy is heat, inside your house. That offsets against additional central heating, to some extent.
Queue up your oven cooking and baking to make best use of the oven.
You could do the same with hot water: all bath, shower and do the washing up around the same time to save heating the water for a long time or multiple times each day.
A couple of years ago I cut our lighting running costs by 94% by replacing all our 60w bulbs with LED bulbs.
Nana used to do that with tin bath in front of coal fire. Mum, dad, kids all using the same bath water in front of fire before it cooled down.
Yep, but then it was a pain in the fundaments to heat the water on the stove in the first place, so you only wanted to do it once.
Also wintering in one room so as not to heat the others.
I would say don't use the oven, as it seems to me it uses a lot of fuel compared to other methods of cooking.
I would say don't use the oven, as it seems to me it uses a lot of fuel compared to other methods of cooking.
That's pretty hair-shirt, even by the standards of this thread.
Making bread over a hotel-issue milliwatt iron is going to be somewhat challenging.
Probably doesn't apply to most on here, but I reckon the nation as a whole could save a lot of energy by not waiting for the safety cut-out on electric kettles when making tea and coffee. The water is boiling long before the cut-out triggers, and coffee is best brewed with the water at less than 100C anyway.
Assuming the average of 1.5 mugs of tea a day ...
I would just like to apologise to the three people who don't get to drink tea on account of me being a 6 cups a day person; I am drinking their portions.
Saving you the need for 2.5kwh of heating in that room. It's a win win.Except that for most of the year my kitchen doesn't need that heating. YKMV.
J
It can be a good idea to get heat exchanging vents tho, these can recover about 90% of the energy from the air they vent out, while warming the air that comes in, all for about 10-30w of energy.
QGs figure for a tumbler cycle seems awfully high. Maybe a straight through the wall heat blower type might have used that. Our recently deceased (2005-2020, RIP) vanilla condenser didn't, the replacement is even better.
To the OP, get a smart meter or plug in watt meter & go power hog hunting. My desktop turned out to use 180 watts :o. I used to just leave it on because a) I didn't realise and b) heat cycles kill electronics. Turning that off 14 hours a night plus a few other surprises has reduced us from .75kwh/h average to ~.52kwh/h. That adds up fast 24/365.
I suspect our freezer is the next hog for the chop.
Thermostat at 19 degrees helps a lot but it is tough at this time of year adjusting to the lower ambient around the house.
What sort of soap are you using? Posh hippy soap, eg the stuff made out of olive oil ttps://www.hollandandbarrett.com/shop/product/oliva-pure-olive-oil-soap-60038772 is more expensive than supermarket soap (especially if you buy it at Holland and Barrett) but a lot less drying to skin. Faith in Nature is another nice one.Yeah also wash your hands in cold water.
I'm probably washing my hands about 5 times more than usual on account of caring for barakta. They're dry and cracked, like after a week of camping. If the water were any colder they'd be bleeding raw.
Probably doesn't apply to most on here, but I reckon the nation as a whole could save a lot of energy by not waiting for the safety cut-out on electric kettles when making tea and coffee. The water is boiling long before the cut-out triggers, and coffee is best brewed with the water at less than 100C anyway.
Not really. If your 2kwh kettle was on for 1 minute longer than needed per boil, it would take 30 boils before it cost you 1kwh. Assuming the average of 1.5 mugs of tea a day, and one boil for each. That's gonna take you 20 days to cost 1kwh. Not exactly big savings...
J
I did say the nation would save a lot of energy, not individuals.
The alternative is a mouldy houseNot a healthy environment plus a damp house feels colder, so may need more heating for comfortable living.
Live with a large number of people in a small space."Be rich" works instead of all the above.
Live in a tower block, preferably not on the ground or first floors.
Live in a mid-terrace.
Don't skimp on two hot meals a day.
Forget superstition, wear a hat indoors.
Move as much as possible.
Don't use labour saving devices. Doing housework manually keeps you warm.
Hot water bottles, blankets and mega-duvets.
That down jacket you bought for chilly evenings when camping can also be worn indoors.
Invite everyone you know for a party.
We do not own a microwave.
I don't know what a decent microwave costs but regardless, I have no realistic idea of how long it would take to recoup the cost in energy use terms.
An unusual source for an all natural hand cleaner that takes on bike maintenance filth, dissolves adheshive label glue, leaves hands moisturised (aloe vera, johoba and lanolin), and smells of citrus oil. Loctite SF 7850 by Henkel. Works with or without water, works like a barrier cream if used before starting work on the filthy bits of bikes. Citrus oil is the active cleanser/glue dissolver.Yeah also wash your hands in cold water.
I'm probably washing my hands about 5 times more than usual on account of caring for barakta. They're dry and cracked, like after a week of camping. If the water were any colder they'd be bleeding raw.
If you've done the full LED upgrade of lighting
"Be rich" works to keep you cosy and not be troubled by the bills, but it doesn't save energy unless you invest it in insulation.Live with a large number of people in a small space."Be rich" works instead of all the above.
Live in a tower block, preferably not on the ground or first floors.
Live in a mid-terrace.
Don't skimp on two hot meals a day.
Forget superstition, wear a hat indoors.
Move as much as possible.
Don't use labour saving devices. Doing housework manually keeps you warm.
Hot water bottles, blankets and mega-duvets.
That down jacket you bought for chilly evenings when camping can also be worn indoors.
Invite everyone you know for a party.
"Be rich" works to keep you cosy and not be troubled by the bills, but it doesn't save energy unless you invest it in insulation.
I agree that the over-run of kettles is insignificant, but you've got a the daily figure wrong. Average use in the UK is around 30 GW, which is around what you said, but that comes to 720 GWh per day, not hundreds of TWh. 3.3 MWh agrees with 100 M cups / 1 minute / 2 kW, and that comes to about 0.00045%
I did say the nation would save a lot of energy, not individuals.
If the 2KW kettle is on for 1 min extra per cup, for 100m cups per day, that's 3.3MWh per day. That's a good size wind turbine at max output for one hour.
Given the at the time of writing UK demand is 34.3GW. It's basically insignificant. Average daily usage for the UK is 287.58TWh, so that 3.3MWh each day works out as 0.0000000115% of the UK's total energy use for a day. That's a rounding error.
Remember, a tiny number multiplied by a big number just gets a middling number (See Hubble-Barn as unit of measure). 3.3MWh may seem like a lot to you as an individual, but on the scale of a nation, it's two thirds of bugger all.
J
"Be rich" works to keep you cosy and not be troubled by the bills, but it doesn't save energy unless you invest it in insulation.
Being rich means you can have appliances that are newer and more energy efficient.
Being rich means your home can be better maintained with Fewer drafts and less damp.
Being rich means you can own your home, so you can choose more efficient heating.
Being rich means you can own your own home so you can install proper insulation.
Being rich means you can cook a proper healthy filling meal.
Being rich means you can afford a better blanket that doesn't get too smelly too fast.
Being rich means you can afford a jumper that isn't made of horrible acrylic that seems to go from fresh out the laundry to teenagers sports bag odour within 30 mins of wear.
Being rich makes everything so much fucking easier.
AKA Samuel Vimes' Boots Theory, by pterry
"Be rich" works to keep you cosy and not be troubled by the bills, but it doesn't save energy unless you invest it in insulation.
Being rich means you can have appliances that are newer and more energy efficient.
Being rich means your home can be better maintained with Fewer drafts and less damp.
Being rich means you can own your home, so you can choose more efficient heating.
Being rich means you can own your own home so you can install proper insulation.
Being rich means you can cook a proper healthy filling meal.
Being rich means you can afford a better blanket that doesn't get too smelly too fast.
Being rich means you can afford a jumper that isn't made of horrible acrylic that seems to go from fresh out the laundry to teenagers sports bag odour within 30 mins of wear.
Being rich makes everything so much fucking easier.
J
I agree that the over-run of kettles is insignificant, but you've got a the daily figure wrong. Average use in the UK is around 30 GW, which is around what you said, but that comes to 720 GWh per day, not hundreds of TWh. 3.3 MWh agrees with 100 M cups / 1 minute / 2 kW, and that comes to about 0.00045%
A much bigger load is the standby consumption of stuff. An alternative to a kettle is a boiling water tap, but they use 10 - 30 W on average without any hot water being dispensed. That is 0.24 to 0.72 kWh per day, or 7 to 21 minutes of a 2 kW kettle per day.
Lots of electronic devices take 1 W or so when doing nothing, and many houses have multiple items like that.
Don't use a tumble drier. Unless you absolutely need to have your clothes dry in a couple of hours, just hang them up, outside if it's dry, inside if not.I put my washing out just before 9:00 am yesterday morning in a south-facing garden.
I agree that the over-run of kettles is insignificant, but you've got a the daily figure wrong. Average use in the UK is around 30 GW, which is around what you said, but that comes to 720 GWh per day, not hundreds of TWh. 3.3 MWh agrees with 100 M cups / 1 minute / 2 kW, and that comes to about 0.00045%
A much bigger load is the standby consumption of stuff. An alternative to a kettle is a boiling water tap, but they use 10 - 30 W on average without any hot water being dispensed. That is 0.24 to 0.72 kWh per day, or 7 to 21 minutes of a 2 kW kettle per day.
Lots of electronic devices take 1 W or so when doing nothing, and many houses have multiple items like that.
Yep, I realised that a couple of hours after posting. I used the annual number, rather than the day number. And if we then do that maths...
287.58/365
= 0.787890411
so 787.89GWh per day total.
Making 3.3MWh each day two thirds of fuck all...
To quote Melody Maker from decades ago:And that!
Remember, kids, money doesn't make you happy.
Big houses, swimming pools, fast cars and endless groupies make you happy.
Merino base layers are bloody marvellous. As are merino jumpers. They might cost upwards of £60 a piece but you're getting for comfort in low temperatures. And you take that comfort with you when you go outdoors.
Don't use a tumble drier. Unless you absolutely need to have your clothes dry in a couple of hours, just hang them up, outside if it's dry, inside if not.I put my washing out just before 9:00 am yesterday morning in a south-facing garden.
There were very light winds and some broken sunshine. When I retrieved them at 7:00pm
they were still slightly damp. At this time of the year I'll be using the tumble dryer.
I don't think that follows, but it's always worth looking at what actually saves power.I agree that the over-run of kettles is insignificant, but you've got a the daily figure wrong. Average use in the UK is around 30 GW, which is around what you said, but that comes to 720 GWh per day, not hundreds of TWh. 3.3 MWh agrees with 100 M cups / 1 minute / 2 kW, and that comes to about 0.00045%
A much bigger load is the standby consumption of stuff. An alternative to a kettle is a boiling water tap, but they use 10 - 30 W on average without any hot water being dispensed. That is 0.24 to 0.72 kWh per day, or 7 to 21 minutes of a 2 kW kettle per day.
Lots of electronic devices take 1 W or so when doing nothing, and many houses have multiple items like that.
Yep, I realised that a couple of hours after posting. I used the annual number, rather than the day number. And if we then do that maths...
287.58/365
= 0.787890411
so 787.89GWh per day total.
Making 3.3MWh each day two thirds of fuck all...
Using this logic, since all individual items is relatively small usage, people may as well do nothing other than cut back on their home aluminium smelting.
I don't think that follows, but it's always worth looking at what actually saves power.
1 minute at 2 kW, maybe 4 times a day is an average of 5.5 W. There may well be lots of other things averaging more than that in a house. An incandescent bulb for a couple of hours will use that much.
Using this logic, since all individual items is relatively small usage, people may as well do nothing other than cut back on their home aluminium smelting.
Using this logic, since all individual items is relatively small usage, people may as well do nothing other than cut back on their home aluminium smelting.
There is some saving to be made here and there, eg from bulk-switching from incandescent to low-power LED lights.
But I listened to some wonk from an Energy Saving foundation on R4 a week or so back, being asked how to help reduce bills in the face of increased energy prices.
There is some saving to be made here and there, eg from bulk-switching from incandescent to low-power LED lights.
But I listened to some wonk from an Energy Saving foundation on R4 a week or so back, being asked how to help reduce bills in the face of increased energy prices.
That would be BBC More or Less, assuming it's the same program I listened to as well. And where I got the 2013 -> 1W standby number from.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00100jh
J
So, insulate, insulate, insulate. yes. But is that within the remit of the target population struggling with energy bills? Eg. in rented accommodation with a landlord who gives not a fuck?Indeedy.
Using this logic, since all individual items is relatively small usage, people may as well do nothing other than cut back on their home aluminium smelting.
Essentially, yes.
There is some saving to be made here and there, eg from bulk-switching from incandescent to low-power LED lights.
But I listened to some wonk from an Energy Saving foundation on R4 a week or so back, being asked how to help reduce bills in the face of increased energy prices.
So, insulate, insulate, insulate. yes. But is that within the remit of the target population struggling with energy bills? Eg. in rented accommodation with a landlord who gives not a fuck?
For others? LED bulbs might make a small difference. Unplugging standby devices? The numbers quoted in the R4 interview suggested that people must have 20 old CRT Tvs on standby.
Most people who can have already taken most of the measures they realistically can, short of making their homes uncomfortable.
And those who have not, for whatever reason, are adding a rounding error to the grand scheme of things.
So yes, the oft-quoted individual measures really do amount to the square root of fuck-all both on your own bills, and on the bigger picture.
Mostly tokenism.
Also sorry if this sounds defeatist.
The plan the human race has at the moment is that we will invent a magic machine that makes it all go away.
One problem with landlords insulating houses is the tenant's toleration of disruption caused by fitting anything worthwhile. Even extra loft insulation is tricky if the tenant is storing stuff up there, and you can forget internal or external wall insulation. You can probably get away with new windows and doors. If it's your own house, you don't mind living in a building site.
The thing that always throws me about loft insulation is that Shirley it just exacerbates the upstairs/downstairs temperature difference.I would have said that is only the case where the upstairs heating isn't separately controlled.
And before you all scream "But how are you going to pay for it?". Easy. Tax the fucking rich.<United Kingdom
If only slogans solved problems :)
"But how are you going to pay for it?". Easy. Tax the fucking rich.
Well it certainly didn't for Wilson/Healey though it did produce Exile on Main Street* so they can be forgiven :)Quote"But how are you going to pay for it?". Easy. Tax the fucking rich.
Hmm. I don't think that will work. If by 'the rich' you mean corps like Apple, Amazon etc, then I absolutely agree. They are a tick on every country in the world.
We need to make building offshore wind (and PV) a more attractive business than sucking oil out from the sea bed.
Quote"But how are you going to pay for it?". Easy. Tax the fucking rich.
Hmm. I don't think that will work. If by 'the rich' you mean corps like Apple, Amazon etc, then I absolutely agree. They are a tick on every country in the world.
We need to make building offshore wind (and PV) a more attractive business than sucking oil out from the sea bed.
The cost of building offshore oil rigs is immense, they are incredibly ugly and the decommissioning is expensive and easily polluting. The 'nudge point' of making offshore wind a more attractive business can't be far off. I think it was BP that paid a record price for licence to build wind in an area. Just a little push more . . .
Well it certainly didn't for Wilson/Healey though it did produce Exile on Main Street* so they can be forgiven :)Quote"But how are you going to pay for it?". Easy. Tax the fucking rich.
Hmm. I don't think that will work. If by 'the rich' you mean corps like Apple, Amazon etc, then I absolutely agree. They are a tick on every country in the world.
We need to make building offshore wind (and PV) a more attractive business than sucking oil out from the sea bed.
Offshore wind certainly, but with massive investment in storage as demonstrated recently when the output fell to close to nothing. EVs? H2?
* OK not quite the same period, same policy though
They didn't even want to pay to maintain existing gas storage, and look where that has got us.Certainly with hindsight a mistake.
A more mundane question, that’s probably a bigger effect than carefully measuring water for the kettle, while still firmly being in the things I can do - assuming I’ve changed where my pension is invested...
We have a three story terraced house, with a fairly new boiler and mostly thermostatic valve radiators (no zones though). This worked well enough when we were at school and work during the day and used all the floors in the evening / night. Now, with one at university and variable levels of home working, we’re looking at a winter when one or two rooms will be occupied during the day for a lot of the time. This is compounded by Mrs Dan having a colder room to work in.
Fiddling with 10 radiator valves twice a day will be a massive faff. Installing zoned heating probably disruptive and expensive, and running hot water round the pipes probably has some losses. Would a small electric fan heater make economic and carbon sense?
Would a small electric fan heater make economic and carbon sense?In my opinion, based on having tried quite a few rathe than any expertise, the best portable electric room heater is an oil filled radiator.
Mrs P: Smart TRVs are going to bump the price up a bit! Quite apart from any internet of shit concerns - i don't need a power cut somewhere else bringing our heating down.The Honeywell Evohome valves will do timed temperature in zones to a 7 day schedule without needing internet. You can make adjustments on the app, but you can also do that on the control panel, so a power cut elsewhere won't stop it. When we had broadband down for a week or so, the only thing effect I noticed on the heating was an email telling me that the system had lost connection, and another saying it was back when we got broadband back.
Problem with smart TRVs seems to be that if you can feed them mains power and/or wired networking you can do it properly with a dumb actuator. The smart options are all battery powered, which rules out WiFi connectivity, and means they use something like BLE or Zigbee, so you need a bridge device too, and now you have three problems.
One that can function as a sufficiently clever timer may be a better approach.
The things that governments pay for are payed for with our taxes. Surely, if the majority of the electorate doesn't want their taxes spent on something and the government goes ahead, it becomes the opposition without the power to do anything?
The chances of them doing this? Somewhat less than Nil. They didn't even want to pay to maintain existing gas storage, and look where that has got us.
Just checked temp in my office. 16C
I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.
We overheat our houses.
The things that governments pay for are payed for with our taxes. Surely, if the majority of the electorate doesn't want their taxes spent on something and the government goes ahead, it becomes the opposition without the power to do anything?
The chances of them doing this? Somewhat less than Nil. They didn't even want to pay to maintain existing gas storage, and look where that has got us.
Unfortunately, the nicer streets are all big houses. You have to buy a big house to avoid the kind of neighbours I have!Just checked temp in my office. 16C
I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.
We overheat our houses.
More to the point, most of us live in houses much larger than necessary for our basic needs.
We overheat our houses.We is all different, even within one household
The cost of building offshore oil rigs is immense, they are incredibly ugly and the decommissioning is expensive and easily polluting. The 'nudge point' of making offshore wind a more attractive business can't be far off. I think it was BP that paid a record price for licence to build wind in an area. Just a little push more . . .
Just checked temp in my office. 16C
I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.
We overheat our houses.
I live with someone who is 'cold' compared to me. We dress very differently; there are times when I'm sat in a T shirt and jeans - she looks relatively lightly dressed, but is wearing wool base layer, leggings, wool dress and an open cardigan/throw.Just checked temp in my office. 16C
I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.
We overheat our houses.
That's comfortable for you. That is seriously fucking cold for an indoor space for me. I would be entirely non functional in such a space.
We do not over heat out houses. Some people just have different temperatures that they find comfortable.
J
I accidentally put the washing machine on the eco settings, so it took 4 hours to do the towels instead of 1
But the issue you highlight here is quite significant.
Some of the so-called 'eco' measures applied to domestic appliances etc are really just greenwash.
Eg 'saving water': toilet flush becomes inadequate to clear the bowl, so this can result in double-flushing as often as not.
Flow reducers on taps? Those things that fluff the water up with air? Why? If I turn the tap on, it's because I want water, not air. I can adjust the flow as necessary.
Wash cycles of several hours: what do they actually achieve? Lower wash temps will use marginally less power, I suppose.
It just seems to me that a lot of this stuff is tokenism that increases inconvenience disproportionately to any actual benefit.
Just checked temp in my office. 16C
I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.
We overheat our houses.
I live with someone who is 'cold' compared to me. We dress very differently; there are times when I'm sat in a T shirt and jeans - she looks relatively lightly dressed, but is wearing wool base layer, leggings, wool dress and an open cardigan/throw.Just checked temp in my office. 16C
I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.
We overheat our houses.
That's comfortable for you. That is seriously fucking cold for an indoor space for me. I would be entirely non functional in such a space.
We do not over heat out houses. Some people just have different temperatures that they find comfortable.
J
It would be interesting to see if you were comfortable, dressed similarly, in similar temps.
Quite a lot of us folk who enjoy type two fun, and own the right clothing, don't use that clothing when in our domestic setting.
The cost of building offshore oil rigs is immense, they are incredibly ugly and the decommissioning is expensive and easily polluting. The 'nudge point' of making offshore wind a more attractive business can't be far off. I think it was BP that paid a record price for licence to build wind in an area. Just a little push more . . .
The East Coast of Scotland... there is a shit load of near shore wind schemes in the planning on top of the capacity already built.
https://www.offshorewindscotland.org.uk/forth-tay-offshore/
(https://www.offshorewindscotland.org.uk/media/1255/fto-map.png)
The North Sea is well set for it, relatively shallow waters means not too expensive to get the foundations in and plenty of wind.
When floating turbines prove themselves in the North Sea, then the wind capacity of the Atlantic is there for the taking.
Defo. As I said way back on p2, it's all about physical movement, which is kind of difficult when you're sitting at a desk. I imagine it was even worse in the pre-computer days when you had to hold a pen for hours on end.I live with someone who is 'cold' compared to me. We dress very differently; there are times when I'm sat in a T shirt and jeans - she looks relatively lightly dressed, but is wearing wool base layer, leggings, wool dress and an open cardigan/throw.Just checked temp in my office. 16C
I'm sat here with a jumper on, perfectly comfortable.
We overheat our houses.
That's comfortable for you. That is seriously fucking cold for an indoor space for me. I would be entirely non functional in such a space.
We do not over heat out houses. Some people just have different temperatures that they find comfortable.
J
It would be interesting to see if you were comfortable, dressed similarly, in similar temps.
Quite a lot of us folk who enjoy type two fun, and own the right clothing, don't use that clothing when in our domestic setting.
I'll weigh in with room at 21.4C, feeling on the warm side of comfortable (borderline sweaty) in technical jeans, t-shirt and fleece. My fingers are almost but not quite painfully cold and I'm alternating between keyboard and sitting on them.
When I'm participating in Type 2 Fun, I tend to be generating enough heat to warm my extremities (and - crucially - I have a much higher tolerance for feeling uncomfortably hot when exercising). When sat at the computer, I don't.
If the temperature were in the 23-24C range, I'd feel hot, would wear less clothing, and my fingers would be fine. Sleep would be difficult.
I don't think humans were designed for sitting at computers.
(Thermostat is set to 20C (more usually 19C, but barakta's living downstairs atm), and I sit on my hands all winter.)
Fingerless gloves or wrist warmers can help for sitting at a computer.
Or anyone tried a heated mouse mat / keyboard?
I accidentally put the washing machine on the eco settings, so it took 4 hours to do the towels instead of 1
This type of thing is another issue which highlights something that prevents widespread effective steps being taken to save energy. That is, people don't really understand science. On a discussion like this, in this kind of place, it tends to be amongst informed people. But, I would consider Mrs Ham to be an intelligent, well informed person. However, she struggles mightily with the idea that a longer cycle will use less energy than a shorter one. As she does with the flow reducers on modern taps (our hot water cylinder is a long way away from the kitchen). A new tap now takes much longer to run hot - "how can it save water? It's running down the drain for much longer".
It matters not a jot what the science is, the real world is mostly occupied by people who really do not understand, so making wrong choices is not their fault along people who _won't_ understand always choosing what they perceive as the best option for them personally in the short term, regardless of whether it is or not. You don't have to look further than the recent car fuel "crisis" at those who can't drive with a lighter right foot.
Doomed we are, doomed.
That nice Mr Trump is none too keen on those "windmills" interfering with the vista from his golf course near Aberdeen.
To me the offshore fans are rather graceful, the on tops of hills ones not quite so good and can be a bit noisy.
My bedroom is about 21°C. Any colder and I find it very hard to get out of bed in the morning.
I've yet to experience a temperature that makes getting out of bed in the morning easy...
Fingerless gloves or wrist warmers can help for sitting at a computer.
Or anyone tried a heated mouse mat / keyboard?
True. So looking to your point on using a drier, it will warm your house as it dries your clothes, reducing your heating bills.I would say don't use the oven, as it seems to me it uses a lot of fuel compared to other methods of cooking.
That's pretty hair-shirt, even by the standards of this thread.
Making bread over a hotel-issue milliwatt iron is going to be somewhat challenging.
And it's misguided. Running the oven for an hour, is about 2.5kwh of energy (based on googling how much energy does an oven use). Which if the oven was out in the garden, would result in 2.5Kwh of energy lost to atmosphere, plus dinner. But your oven is in the kitchen, so running the oven for an hour puts 2.5kwh of energy into the kitchen in the form of warmth. And produces dinner. Saving you the need for 2.5kwh of heating in that room. It's a win win.
J
True. So looking to your point on using a drier, it will warm your house as it dries your clothes, reducing your heating bills.Depends on what sort of tumble dryer. A regular, cheap vented tumble drier is dumping the hot air outside. So that is just wasted energy.
(we have the drier in #1 son's bedroom to maximise heat in the house. Obvs we don't use it in the summer because we aren't mental)
I'd say it's "prioritising" as much/more than being rich. Buy one top or buy 6 disposable ones from Primark? It's a choice. Buy cheap now or wait and buy better? It's a choice. Are you going to get your car on finance or your A++ rated appliances? It's a choice.Merino base layers are bloody marvellous. As are merino jumpers. They might cost upwards of £60 a piece but you're getting for comfort in low temperatures. And you take that comfort with you when you go outdoors.See QGs "being rich" post, although I'd argue most of it is actually "comfortably off" rather than "rich" but that may be a perception difference as to what rich is.
I'd say it's "prioritising" as much/more than being rich. Buy one top or buy 6 disposable ones from Primark? It's a choice. Buy cheap now or wait and buy better? It's a choice. Are you going to get your car on finance or your A++ rated appliances? It's a choice.
True. So looking to your point on using a drier, it will warm your house as it dries your clothes, reducing your heating bills.
(we have the drier in #1 son's bedroom to maximise heat in the house. Obvs we don't use it in the summer because we aren't mental)
It's autumn, in Scotland
The towels had to go in the dryer because after 4 hours there was no hope they were going to be dried on the line. It was dark and calm.
Had I used the 1hr cycle given the running cost differential between the washer and the dryer and the whirly, 1hr washer + 4hrs whirly + 20m dryer < 4hrs washer + 3hrs dryer
<United Kingdom
Following the reduction of the top rate of income tax in the UK from 50% to 45% in 2013, HMRC estimated the cost of the tax reduction to be about £100 million (out of an income for this group of around £90 billion), but with large uncertainty on both sides. Robert Chote, the chairman of the UK Office for Budget Responsibility commented that Britain was "strolling across the summit of the Laffer curve", implying that UK tax rates had been close to the optimum rate.[37][38]>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve
If only slogans solved problems :)
See QGs "being rich" post, although I'd argue most of it is actually "comfortably off" rather than "rich" but that may be a perception difference as to what rich is.
I have an oil-filled radiator under my desk...I'd say that's an implementation of micro-heating, because it places the heat where it's needed and the desktop here is a 'hood' to stop (some of) the heat escaping.
I'd never heard of the heat pump dryers until this thread. Every day's a school day.The are notorious for taking forever to dry anything.
I'd never heard of the heat pump dryers until this thread. Every day's a school day.The are notorious for taking forever to dry anything.
Sure, but you have to mean only the extremely poor and you still have to qualify that with lack of financial savvy.I'd say it's "prioritising" as much/more than being rich. Buy one top or buy 6 disposable ones from Primark? It's a choice. Buy cheap now or wait and buy better? It's a choice. Are you going to get your car on finance or your A++ rated appliances? It's a choice.
It's only a choice if you have the money, and the financial savvy to be able to make it. If you're on Universal credit and just had your benefits cut, then saving up for a 60 quid merino top is going to take a long time, and may mean a few days being hungry.
I'd never heard of the heat pump dryers until this thread. Every day's a school day.The are notorious for taking forever to dry anything.
I thought that was condensing tumble dryers.
Heat pump dryers are a type of condensing dryers. The heat is pumped from the condenser to the heater. The air goes over the condenser where the moisture, unsurprisingly, consdenses. The air is then heated by the heater and goes into the drum where it heats the clothes and picks up water from them. Then it's back to the condenser. Getting the heat from the condensing of the water is the best source of heat to pump.I'd never heard of the heat pump dryers until this thread. Every day's a school day.The are notorious for taking forever to dry anything.
I thought that was condensing tumble dryers.
It's autumn, in Scotland
The towels had to go in the dryer because after 4 hours there was no hope they were going to be dried on the line. It was dark and calm.
Had I used the 1hr cycle given the running cost differential between the washer and the dryer and the whirly, 1hr washer + 4hrs whirly + 20m dryer < 4hrs washer + 3hrs dryer
I took my towel out of the washing machine and hung it up in the unheated bathroom (it get's most of it's warmth from the Kitchen, which has the radiator on low, and primarily gets heated by me making dinner). Do that at about 2200 when I hang the washing up. It's dry when I shower the next morning at about 9ish. The rest of the laundry gets hung on a rack that hangs over the front of my bedroom door. Again, hang stuff up about 2200ish, and it's dry by morning. In winter I sometimes put stuff on the radiator, usually things that are awkward, like my cycling gloves.
Humidity in my flat currently is 47.4%, and in the middle of winter with snow on the ground it gets to about 30%.
Warm part of house is 17C in winter. We always have the windows open in the bedroom unless rain or snow blowing in. Don’t measure temp but prefer it cool with fresh air for sleeping.
I am trying to figure out the %rh in our new house. A few days ago all the meters were reading over 70%, and it hadn't been raining. Day before yesterday it pished with rain (to the extent the newly cleaned gutters were overwhelmed) in the late afternoon and this evening all the meters are reading about 56%. I'm still trying to work it all out.Outside temperature often has more effect on the indoor humidity than outside humidity does.
I am trying to figure out the %rh in our new house. A few days ago all the meters were reading over 70%, and it hadn't been raining. Day before yesterday it pished with rain (to the extent the newly cleaned gutters were overwhelmed) in the late afternoon and this evening all the meters are reading about 56%. I'm still trying to work it all out.
I had cold feet for a good deal of last night. I shall keep socks on tonight.
I reckon the concept I'm going to call 'micro-heating' will catch on. This is a bit like the idea that you don't have to heat the entire house to be comfortable. Only, this is a step further. You don't have to heat the whole room to stay comfortable. Electric blankets are an example of micro-heating. As are heated car seats. There are companies which have designed living room chairs with heating elements.I have an oil-filled radiator under my desk...I'd say that's an implementation of micro-heating, because it places the heat where it's needed and the desktop here is a 'hood' to stop (some of) the heat escaping.
You can also warm the touch points. There are heated computer keyboards, and heated mice, for instance.
Heated gilets warm just the areas of the body that get cold first, i.e. kidneys and lower back. They're now available in designs that look like normal clothes, and they take USB power in (rather than the early ones which were designed specifically for builders and motorcyclists and required specialist batteries.)
I think we'll see more of this kind of stuff. Electric elements allow designs that isolate heat to an extent that's just not possible with coolant-filled radiators. And I hope we do see more innovation in this direction. A fringe benefit is that it's portable. You can set up office in places you couldn't otherwise.
Insulation: first the body, then the home
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/02/body-insulation-thermal-underwear.html
Modern thermal underclothing offers the possibility to turn the thermostat much lower without sacrificing comfort or sex appeal.Rule 34 applies, but do be careful when searching for "fleece porn".
Although room temperature is hardly ever mentioned as a factor in energy use, it is a decisive factor in the energy consumption of heating systems - just as the speed of an automobile is a decisive factor in the energy use of an engine.Never mentioned? I'm sure I've seen publicity campaigns telling us to turn the thermostat down x degrees to save y amount of money/energy. But the magazine seems to be Usanian so maybe in that context it's right.
As far as I was able to find out, nobody has published a research report on the evolution of the average room temperature in winter throughout recent history. Today, the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE) recommends an indoor winter temperature between 21 and 23 degrees Celsius (70 to 73.5°F). A Dutch report (.pdf, in dutch) mentions a rise in average winter indoor temperature from 20° C in 1984 to 21° C in 1992. David MacKay mentions an average room temperature of 13° Celsius (55°F) in the UK in 1970.Fragmentary data but perhaps broadly indicative.
Low-tech Magazine is written by Kris De Decker (Barcelona, Spain).
Kris De Decker was born in Antwerp (Belgium) and lives in Barcelona (Spain)
QuoteAs far as I was able to find out, nobody has published a research report on the evolution of the average room temperature in winter throughout recent history. Today, the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE) recommends an indoor winter temperature between 21 and 23 degrees Celsius (70 to 73.5°F). A Dutch report (.pdf, in dutch) mentions a rise in average winter indoor temperature from 20° C in 1984 to 21° C in 1992. David MacKay mentions an average room temperature of 13° Celsius (55°F) in the UK in 1970.Fragmentary data but perhaps broadly indicative.
Damp, condensation and mould would be one of the problems with heating the person not the building. Though they can't stop the rain or fix the roof.
If you live in an older property which might be subject to cold spots and even possible dampness, get a decent dehumidifier. Not only does it deal with the dampness, not only can you dry your laundry using one cheaper than a tumble dryer, but also because it reduces humidity so your conventional heating system will be marginally more effective warming drier air.
We are happy to wear extra clothing and run the heating for less time than most as well as keep the thermostat set lower.
Also, why do so many people wear outer garments just the once or use a bath towel just the once before washing them? Or am I just a dirty minger?
If you live in an older property which might be subject to cold spots and even possible dampness, get a decent dehumidifier. Not only does it deal with the dampness, not only can you dry your laundry using one cheaper than a tumble dryer, but also because it reduces humidity so your conventional heating system will be marginally more effective warming drier air.
We are happy to wear extra clothing and run the heating for less time than most as well as keep the thermostat set lower.
Also, why do so many people wear outer garments just the once or use a bath towel just the once before washing them? Or am I just a dirty minger?
I possess 4 bath towels.
A wool jumper will do a week.
The heating is barely on, the house sits at a nice comfortable 18C with only the occasional blast of the boiler. This is actually a problem in the bathroom as the towel rail is next to never on so the towels on it don't quite dry out enough for day 2 and don't have the back up warmth to hide it.
My experience of dehumidifiers is in drying rooms at hostels and mountaineering huts, they create smelly sandpaper.
I have now been able to fold 2 sheets of bath towel sized sandpaper into a stack and dump it in the press with the boiler to do the last little bit of finishing off.
My woolie booly 2 socks are still drying...
If you live in an older property which might be subject to cold spots and even possible dampness, get a decent dehumidifier. Not only does it deal with the dampness, not only can you dry your laundry using one cheaper than a tumble dryer, but also because it reduces humidity so your conventional heating system will be marginally more effective warming drier air.
We are happy to wear extra clothing and run the heating for less time than most as well as keep the thermostat set lower.
Also, why do so many people wear outer garments just the once or use a bath towel just the once before washing them? Or am I just a dirty minger?
I possess 4 bath towels.
A wool jumper will do a week.
The heating is barely on, the house sits at a nice comfortable 18C with only the occasional blast of the boiler. This is actually a problem in the bathroom as the towel rail is next to never on so the towels on it don't quite dry out enough for day 2 and don't have the back up warmth to hide it.
My experience of dehumidifiers is in drying rooms at hostels and mountaineering huts, they create smelly sandpaper.
I have now been able to fold 2 sheets of bath towel sized sandpaper into a stack and dump it in the press with the boiler to do the last little bit of finishing off.
My woolie booly 2 socks are still drying...
I'm in the process of remedying that issue by retro-fitting electric elements in the CH system towel rails - with the use of time clocks (or something like Hive) we can have the towel rails on independently of the CH - admittedly it's more for summer use when the CH is off rather than winter.
Hot Water Circuit?
Combi-Boilers mean the hot water circuit triggers the heating of the water by flow detection (often set far too high... well mine is can be filling a 1l pan in 2seconds before its on), so the towel rad needs to be on the heating circuit.
But if you have a room thermostat controlling when it's on and off, you're only getting warm towels when your chosen room is cold.
Room temp sensing, Boiler controlling TRVs would help I suppose.
Modern systems have a bypass valve that opens a bit to let some water through if all the radiators are shut off. https://www.bes.co.uk/heating-ventilation/central-heating/valves/bypass/ (https://www.bes.co.uk/heating-ventilation/central-heating/valves/bypass/)Hot Water Circuit?
Combi-Boilers mean the hot water circuit triggers the heating of the water by flow detection (often set far too high... well mine is can be filling a 1l pan in 2seconds before its on), so the towel rad needs to be on the heating circuit.
But if you have a room thermostat controlling when it's on and off, you're only getting warm towels when your chosen room is cold.
Room temp sensing, Boiler controlling TRVs would help I suppose.
I thought if you had a thermostatic radiator valves, you had to have at least one radiator in the house without one, just in case the boiler is fired up, but the radiators are doing nothing. In the central heating systems I've setup we always did this with the bathroom radiator.
J
If you live in an older property which might be subject to cold spots and even possible dampness, get a decent dehumidifier. Not only does it deal with the dampness, not only can you dry your laundry using one cheaper than a tumble dryer, but also because it reduces humidity so your conventional heating system will be marginally more effective warming drier air.
We are happy to wear extra clothing and run the heating for less time than most as well as keep the thermostat set lower.
Also, why do so many people wear outer garments just the once or use a bath towel just the once before washing them? Or am I just a dirty minger?
I possess 4 bath towels.
A wool jumper will do a week.
The heating is barely on, the house sits at a nice comfortable 18C with only the occasional blast of the boiler. This is actually a problem in the bathroom as the towel rail is next to never on so the towels on it don't quite dry out enough for day 2 and don't have the back up warmth to hide it.
My experience of dehumidifiers is in drying rooms at hostels and mountaineering huts, they create smelly sandpaper.
I have now been able to fold 2 sheets of bath towel sized sandpaper into a stack and dump it in the press with the boiler to do the last little bit of finishing off.
My woolie booly 2 socks are still drying...
I'm in the process of remedying that issue by retro-fitting electric elements in the CH system towel rails - with the use of time clocks (or something like Hive) we can have the towel rails on independently of the CH - admittedly it's more for summer use when the CH is off rather than winter.
Aren't bathroom rads on the hot water circuit any more?
I've been doing loads of reading/youtubing about reducing energy use at home, but what I'd really like is someone with more knowledge than me to produce a report with itemized improvements and guestimate costs. Also who I could ask specific questions of (eg 3 floor house - ground floor always cold, top floor always too hot). How does one go about finding such a person (preferably one who isn't trying to sell stuff)?https://www.gov.uk/buy-sell-your-home/energy-performance-certificates
and the house always seems to run humid, so there have to be a bunch of different technologies that we could use to be more efficient, save carbon/money and reduce the chances of damp.If your house is humid your wife might feel warmer if it's less humid, so a dehumidifier may be a good thing there, made a massive difference to me.
Personally, I'd keep the house about 21 degrees given the choice, but my wife complains of cold when Tado says it's 23 degrees (she has an oil filled electric radiator in her office and so it's 26 degrees in there right now!!!), and my daughter would prefer it to be about 17 degrees. ::-)
What I do love is that they tell you that should should carry out improvements listed on your EPC in the order they are recommended. So for us that would be:
Room-in-roof insulation Cost £1,500 - £2,700 Typical saving/yr £251
Cavity wall insulation Cost £500 - £1500 Typical saving/yr £37
Floor insulation (suspended floor) £800-1200 Typical saving/yr £71
Low energy lighting for all fixed outlets £40 Typical saving/yr £52
Solar water heating £4-8k Typical saving/yr £31
Solar photovoltaic panels, 2.5 kWp £3500-5500 Typical saving/yr £310
Which to me should be done based on bang for buck and least disruption:
1. LED lighting
2. Cavity wall
Room in roof/flat roof makes sense but I'm not planning to get it done until the flat roof actually needs replacing (although I might change my mind once we've actually experienced a winter in this house)
Floor insulation - for the amount of upheaval that will generate you can get stuffed for the sake of £71/yr. Maybe if we ever get new carpets.
Solar water heating - the gas CH boiler was brand new in December so doesn't make sense to me to ditch that already, from an emissions caused by manufacturing POV.
Solar PV - yes it's expensive but it would make up for having a crappy electric hob and shower (despite having a combi boiler)
Solar water heating - the gas CH boiler was brand new in December so doesn't make sense to me to ditch that already, from an emissions caused by manufacturing POV.
Hot Water Circuit?
Combi-Boilers mean the hot water circuit triggers the heating of the water by flow detection (often set far too high... well mine is can be filling a 1l pan in 2seconds before its on), so the towel rad needs to be on the heating circuit.
But if you have a room thermostat controlling when it's on and off, you're only getting warm towels when your chosen room is cold.
Room temp sensing, Boiler controlling TRVs would help I suppose.
I thought if you had a thermostatic radiator valves, you had to have at least one radiator in the house without one, just in case the boiler is fired up, but the radiators are doing nothing. In the central heating systems I've setup we always did this with the bathroom radiator.
J
Modern systems have a bypass valve that opens a bit to let some water through if all the radiators are shut off. https://www.bes.co.uk/heating-ventilation/central-heating/valves/bypass/ (https://www.bes.co.uk/heating-ventilation/central-heating/valves/bypass/)
As long as some water flows through the boiler, all of it will be at close to the same temperature and it will shut off when hot without damage. If no water flows, part of it can boil before the sensor notices that it's got too hot.
What I do love is that they tell you that should should carry out improvements listed on your EPC in the order they are recommended. So for us that would be:
Which to me should be done based on bang for buck and least disruption:
1. LED lighting
2. Cavity wall
Room in roof/flat roof makes sense but I'm not planning to get it done until the flat roof actually needs replacing (although I might change my mind once we've actually experienced a winter in this house)
Floor insulation - for the amount of upheaval that will generate you can get stuffed for the sake of £71/yr. Maybe if we ever get new carpets.
Solar water heating - the gas CH boiler was brand new in December so doesn't make sense to me to ditch that already, from an emissions caused by manufacturing POV.
Solar PV - yes it's expensive but it would make up for having a crappy electric hob and shower (despite having a combi boiler)
The solar water interests me, the black painted garage door was too hot to touch before I shoved a layer of silver bubble wrap on the back, downside is the garage doesn't get so warm in winter, though it loses it anyway. The front rooms are toasty on sunny days and balanced with the back rooms on the north on not so sunny days.
Ha our house is 58/52 currently
I'm planning underfloor insulation as part of living room refurb. PB Any practical tips please?
I wi be interested to hear how you get on with your ASHP. Our boiler works fine for now and we only have the central heating on for 3 hours in the evening (not consecutive) but we'd like to ditch gas for heating if at all possible.I'll be happy to report back after this winter. Our decision to install ASHP is primarily in an effort to further reduce our carbon footprint. Having got rid of the car (which is generally the biggest element in a household CF) the next biggest emitter of CO2 was our gas CH, particularly as we have a very old gas boiler which must be very inefficient. Hopefully this means that we won't notice too much of an increase in our energy bills. We are also taking advantage of the Renewable Heating Incentive to subsidise the cost before it is replaced with the grant being introduced next year, which is less interesting financially despite the big song and dance the chancellor made about it!
I agree on insulation: when I did the loft a few years back the effect was astounding but this was part of works to install DG, replace the roof, etc. I have been doing internal wall insulation on our solid walls and, as we have cavities under our suspended wooden floors downstairs, insulating under floors one room at a time. Each time we do a room the effect is obvious.
I have one downstairs room left to do but the pandemic and availability of sighted assistants as well as building supplies stopped that happening this year. Roll on 2022...
We are also looking at a six panel pv array which is the best we can do on our ne/sw alighned victoriana mid-terrace.
We have a hive system.
Main benefits; I can see the current temperature. We have turned down the heat settings (mornings and evenings) considerably, on finding that we were 'comfortable' when the hallway was at 17. So the evening and morning CH boost is now at 17 - if we want it warmer, we turn it up for an hour or two.
It is very easy to control the CH by turning up the temperature.
This can be done from phone app or from the sensor device. The sensor is battery powered and small, so it is easy to move into another room if we want the temp in that room to drive the heating.
We have a hive system.
Main benefits; I can see the current temperature. We have turned down the heat settings (mornings and evenings) considerably, on finding that we were 'comfortable' when the hallway was at 17. So the evening and morning CH boost is now at 17 - if we want it warmer, we turn it up for an hour or two.
It is very easy to control the CH by turning up the temperature.
This can be done from phone app or from the sensor device. The sensor is battery powered and small, so it is easy to move into another room if we want the temp in that room to drive the heating.
Another vote for Hive - we've had it for about 5 years (3.5 with a Combi boiler and 1.5 with a pressurised boiler + tank system) - excellent controls and boost option etc . . . and we've added light bulbs and plug/sockets for timing various things. Being able to switch stuff on/off from anywhere in the world using the phone is pretty useful - e.g. turning on heating when we're on the way home (ditto the coffee machine :thumbsup:, as I've mentioned before)
I see that robots for applying expanding foam under your floorboards are now a thing. Can't see how that is good from a rot perspective though ..
I see that robots for applying expanding foam under your floorboards are now a thing. Can't see how that is good from a rot perspective though ..
Hot Water Circuit?
Combi-Boilers mean the hot water circuit triggers the heating of the water by flow detection (often set far too high... well mine is can be filling a 1l pan in 2seconds before its on), so the towel rad needs to be on the heating circuit.
But if you have a room thermostat controlling when it's on and off, you're only getting warm towels when your chosen room is cold.
Room temp sensing, Boiler controlling TRVs would help I suppose.
I thought if you had a thermostatic radiator valves, you had to have at least one radiator in the house without one, just in case the boiler is fired up, but the radiators are doing nothing. In the central heating systems I've setup we always did this with the bathroom radiator.
J
That is what I thought too... my one has a TRV, so far no boiler explosion... thankfully.
I've got that TRV cranked right up and the bathrooms lucky to get over 20c, not that I have any idea what max on the TRV equates to in reality.
I've currently got a multimeter, thermocouple, notepad and some dials attached to boiler pipes
Return was 5c below output, but the boiler does have a deliberately inefficient start up mode that gets the internal temperature up to 80Modern systems have a bypass valve that opens a bit to let some water through if all the radiators are shut off. https://www.bes.co.uk/heating-ventilation/central-heating/valves/bypass/ (https://www.bes.co.uk/heating-ventilation/central-heating/valves/bypass/)
As long as some water flows through the boiler, all of it will be at close to the same temperature and it will shut off when hot without damage. If no water flows, part of it can boil before the sensor notices that it's got too hot.
That would explain it.What I do love is that they tell you that should should carry out improvements listed on your EPC in the order they are recommended. So for us that would be:
Which to me should be done based on bang for buck and least disruption:
1. LED lighting
2. Cavity wall
Room in roof/flat roof makes sense but I'm not planning to get it done until the flat roof actually needs replacing (although I might change my mind once we've actually experienced a winter in this house)
Floor insulation - for the amount of upheaval that will generate you can get stuffed for the sake of £71/yr. Maybe if we ever get new carpets.
Solar water heating - the gas CH boiler was brand new in December so doesn't make sense to me to ditch that already, from an emissions caused by manufacturing POV.
Solar PV - yes it's expensive but it would make up for having a crappy electric hob and shower (despite having a combi boiler)
Yeah, I've had a nosey at the neighbours houses in the EPC database that are basically the same, interesting how different they all are.
Some have the obligatory "Wind Turbine" in the list, others don't despite being more efficient and clearly not included by the assessor
So with mine starting on 72/70 and a potential of 87/87
1) Floor insulation, 73/73 saves 45 quid a year
2) Draughtproofing, 74/74 saves 22 quid a year
3) Solar Water Heating, 76/76 - 28 quid
4) 2.5kWp Solar PV, 87/87 - 318 quid
Now... correct me if I'm being deluded here, but the 10 point increase from Solar PV and saving of £318 a year is by far the most obvious one to do first.
I mean if I start at 72/70 that's up to 82/80ish. I'd probably go for something a bit bigger with the aim of adding batteries when affordability is reached, after all half the year I cook when it's dark.
My assumption is due to the only draughts I can find being from the window vents that I did the draught proofing when I swapped the crap folding doors for a uPVC door between kitchen and sunporch.
Then again the sunporch is in the floor space and is unheated for now I'll take the hit of running a 1.5kw electric heater just before tea this winter and work out how to minimize loss from windows later, the wee brother just has to turn up with the stuff he's got sitting in his garage.
I need to lift a carpet to see if I can find a way of seeing under the floor too.
What's also interesting is there's no mention of low power lighting... the house was entirely lit with hallogen and CFLs for an EPC written September last year that's a bit shit so I guess the guides haven't been updated for the assessors to cover that.
The solar water interests me, the black painted garage door was too hot to touch before I shoved a layer of silver bubble wrap on the back, downside is the garage doesn't get so warm in winter, though it loses it anyway. The front rooms are toasty on sunny days and balanced with the back rooms on the north on not so sunny days.
Seems to me the most appropriate approach would be to get PV in first with space left to get Solar Heating added later, that way I could use a tank and immersion heater and use that to heat the water during the day, downside being on days when the sun doesn't bother.
Attic space seems handy, and this house wasn't built with putting a room in the roof in mind. (Hall too narrow for stairs, space between roof trusses to wander around about 2 hall widths)
That or the upheaval of adapting the house such that an ASHP has a chance of doing its job
Oh I found this for TRVs
0 = Off
* = 7°C
1 = 10°C
2 = 15°C
3 = 20°C
4 = 25°C
5 = 30°C
that'll help me
although the rads are still toasty... this is going to be a late night
Something that my brain can't quite comprehend is how TRVs which are (obviously) next to the heated radiator can decide/understand how warm the room is - with the notional numbered settings - the heat from the nearby radiator must affect the sensor? (Physics wasn't my strong suit at school!)
I've been fiddling with trying to balance our radiators for a couple of days and it does seem to be an inexact science - with probably a bit of guesswork and luck thrown in. I'm using a multimeter with a temperture probe and adjusting lockshield valves.
Something that my brain can't quite comprehend is how TRVs which are (obviously) next to the heated radiator can decide/understand how warm the room is - with the notional numbered settings - the heat from the nearby radiator must affect the sensor? (Physics wasn't my strong suit at school!)
I've been fiddling with trying to balance our radiators for a couple of days and it does seem to be an inexact science - with probably a bit of guesswork and luck thrown in. I'm using a multimeter with a temperture probe and adjusting lockshield valves.
I was thinking about this yesterday and decided that they can only give relative rather than absolute adjustments. So they can make a room warmer relative to other rooms, by opening the valve a bit more, or cooler.
What they can't do - which is what I was wanting to think they could - is keep the room I am working in at XX degrees regardless of the rest of the house.
As I see it, they are not thermostats.
Has anyone used the Hive TRVs? We have a Hive thermostat, but I'm curious to see whether the TRVs would make a difference.
Something that my brain can't quite comprehend is how TRVs which are (obviously) next to the heated radiator can decide/understand how warm the room is - with the notional numbered settings - the heat from the nearby radiator must affect the sensor? (Physics wasn't my strong suit at school!)There will be a big effect from the radiator. The TRVs are normally low down, so the hot air rising from the radiator* will mean that the bottom of the radiator and the TRV will be generally in room air, which will reduce the effect somewhat. The physical construction of the TRV will be such the sensitivity to air temperature will be as much as possible, and radiation from the radiator and conduction from the pipe will be minimised.
Well, I just stuck my head down through the hatch under the front door. That was interesting. Plenty crawl space so potentially the ability to insulate the floor from below. And install cat5 cable if needed.
The photo below is of the wall directly under the front door, it's north facing. It appears to be wearing a fur coat of efflorescence. It doesn't exactly make me feel that getting cavity wall insulation would be a good idea, although that's just what I can see from the hatch, I didn't go having a crawl about. Also, IANA cavity wall insulation surveyor.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51659016241_30f9dc4ced.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mGVXKP)IMG_20211106_155422 (https://flic.kr/p/2mGVXKP) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
This photo shows what I assume is a clay demijohn and then on closer inspection it looks like someone's put a bagged up floor cleaning device or something under there. ???
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51659016236_f437e8ef7b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mGVXKJ)IMG_20211106_155031 (https://flic.kr/p/2mGVXKJ) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Further inspection some time...
This deserves a thread all its own, The View Under My Floorboards or something similar, or has there already been one? I have a similar space under mine and I'm contemplating a visit in the near future. Might take a camera next time.
This deserves a thread all its own, The View Under My Floorboards or something similar, or has there already been one? I have a similar space under mine and I'm contemplating a visit in the near future. Might take a camera next time.
If a house has a South facing rear wall and sufficient land (i.e. a garden), and the owner has the funds, a substantial amount of heat can be gained directly through a conservatory, if that conservatory is designed wiith solar gain in mind. That means having a way of stopping the place overheating during summer.
IIRC there's a house Nottinghamshire that was built to passivhaus standard with a two-storey conservatory was the main heat source. It had a concrete floor as heat storage. The conservatory was vented to allow the owners to reduce solar gain in the warm season. The owners were an Australian couple who designed and built the house and documented it in a book (which is how I know about it), but alas I don't remember the title or authors. Others here may know of it. It was built to test what was possible in the UK, and, for me, it demonstrated the potential efficacy of solar gain through a conservatory.
If a house has a South facing rear wall and sufficient land (i.e. a garden), and the owner has the funds, a substantial amount of heat can be gained directly through a conservatory, if that conservatory is designed wiith solar gain in mind. That means having a way of stopping the place overheating during summer.
IIRC there's a house Nottinghamshire that was built to passivhaus standard with a two-storey conservatory was the main heat source. It had a concrete floor as heat storage. The conservatory was vented to allow the owners to reduce solar gain in the warm season. The owners were an Australian couple who designed and built the house and documented it in a book (which is how I know about it), but alas I don't remember the title or authors. Others here may know of it. It was built to test what was possible in the UK, and, for me, it demonstrated the potential efficacy of solar gain through a conservatory.
My heating app has started telling me runtimes.
27hrs 20mins ish last week, Sunday despite being mild was worst at nearly 5h
That for 18 degrees during the day and 14 overnight (I can't sleep if there's constant noise so I want the boiler off)
Tuesday was the day I attempted to balance the radiators so had it going full welly for a bit. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211109/208f3f828fc8f99daf2e25bfa12a2677.jpg)
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DuncanM I was reading about the gadgets on this page last night.Those look great, I will have to investigate. Thanks for the links :) .
https://www.heritage-house.org/damp-and-condensation/solving-damp-problems-in-your-home/controlling-humidity.html
Which made me think of the things I posted about a couple of months back, single room MVHR, like this sort of thing. They sound like a good idea but no idea if they are any good or not...https://www.fastlec.co.uk/blauberg-heat-recovery
I still think that the biggest problem we face in the UK is the expectation that, when it is 0C outside, every room in our house will be over 21C.
My graph informs me that our heating has run for over 3 hours on two days this month, with an average of 95min/day, to maintain an indoor average temperature around 20C. That's higher than usual for the outdoor temperature because barakta is currently living in the (relatively cold) dining room, and we're pissing all the heat out of the downstairs a few times a week by doing the wheelchair ramp dance.This geek appreciates your nice graph. :)
If it were properly cold, it would be a lot higher. But as rental scum we can't insulate anything, and have to make do with intelligent use of heating.
(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/random/Screenshot_at_2021_11_09_12_29_20.png)
Are your internal walls not stuffed with soundproofing/insulation to deaden noise and helping to have rooms at different temps. 🤔
I still think that the biggest problem we face in the UK is the expectation that, when it is 0C outside, every room in our house will be over 21C.
Why?
I am getting so so so so so fucking pissed off with people thinking we shouldn't be warm. It's 2021 and we have both the means and the technology such that we can sit in our homes at 21+°C when it's -20°C outside, and with zero emissions.
It is simply criminal that house builders have not been building better quality housing in the last four decades. We've known about high quality insulation, sealing, and the rest of the Passivhaus standard since as far back as the 80's. With such a building I should be able to be my comfortable 23°C with just the input of a single candle.
It's gross negligence on behalf of the government that more is not being done to make zero emission heating possible for more people. it's gross incompetence that efforts to improve insulation have failed to reach the levels we need through poor design of the bureaucracy behind it.
But, in all this, we should not be shaming people for wanting to be warm and comfortable. If you wanna turn the heating off and wrap up in a blanket, go for it. But don't go trying to shame others.
Yes space heating is approx 17% of emissions. But the only thing stopping this being fixed is capitalism. The technology is there. It's just not evenly distributed. And the only thing stopping that is ideological belief in the scarcity of money. There's no excuse for it.
J
Houses not being insulated decently is a separate issue from people having unrealistic temperature expectations.
Bodies adapt - when I lived in australia my body was used to the heat. every year, summer started, there would be a day when I *felt* the change, and then the heat was less suffocating afterwards.
I've been living up in the Hebrides for a good few months now and my body is used to the generally cooler conditions, partly because we don't heat our house all the time. MrsC has also adapted.
Sure we have better technology. Saying that we should always be keeping houses at 21C 'because we have the technology' isn't much different from saying we should all the time use motorised transport 'because we have the technology'.
Both acts (heating and using cars) have an environmental cost. People (in the west) have become accustomed to using technology to adapt the environment rather than letting bodies do some of the adaption.
I accept that not everyone can adapt. However most can and do.
Houses not being insulated decently is a separate issue from people having unrealistic temperature expectations.
Bodies adapt - when I lived in australia my body was used to the heat. every year, summer started, there would be a day when I *felt* the change, and then the heat was less suffocating afterwards.
I've been living up in the Hebrides for a good few months now and my body is used to the generally cooler conditions, partly because we don't heat our house all the time. MrsC has also adapted.
Sure we have better technology. Saying that we should always be keeping houses at 21C 'because we have the technology' isn't much different from saying we should all the time use motorised transport 'because we have the technology'.
Both acts (heating and using cars) have an environmental cost. People (in the west) have become accustomed to using technology to adapt the environment rather than letting bodies do some of the adaption.
I lived for a number of years in a house that in the middle of winter would be about 12°C inside. You don't adjust. You're just paralysed by cold. You can't function cos of all the clothing and blankets needed to simply exist.
You might be comfortable at temps under 20°C. But that doesn't mean you should impose that on others. We should strive for better quality housing so people can be comfortable without destroying the planet. Esp as the technology already exists, it's just not being used because capitalism.
I now live in a home with good insulation, and where the heating is based on an efficient shared city heat system. It can be done. And it should be done. Simply telling people to be uncomfortable isn't going to work. Making it people's individual responsibility isn't going to work.
J
You don't adjust. You're just paralysed by cold. You can't function cos of all the clothing and blankets needed to simply exist.I accept that was your experience. It isn't mine.
What I do think is irresponsible is to heat a home in winter to the point where you are in a T shirt. We have our thermostat at 16C during the day and turn it up to 18C in the evening when we are less active and tired. I would never think of not wearing warm clothing in winter and am staggered by the temperatures to which many others heat their homes.
https://www.heritage-house.org/damp-and-condensation/solving-damp-problems-in-your-home/controlling-humidity.html
"The bottom line: If timber is dry, it won't rot, and beetle won't eat it."
Perhaps drifting the thread back on topic I just installed a “chimney sheep” a custom lambs wool plug to reduce the drought up the chimney which made a massive improvement.I was pondering one of them as well.
Perhaps drifting the thread back on topic I just installed a “chimney sheep” a custom lambs wool plug to reduce the drought up the chimney which made a massive improvement.I was pondering one of them as well.
Perhaps drifting the thread back on topic I just installed a “chimney sheep” a custom lambs wool plug to reduce the drought up the chimney which made a massive improvement.
Perhaps drifting the thread back on topic I just installed a “chimney sheep” a custom lambs wool plug to reduce the drought up the chimney which made a massive improvement.
To be honest, a drought up the chimney is probably better than the alternative. :P
Utter bollocks - modern washing machines don't last 16 years! Most fail shortly after the warranty expires. They are built to a price and most are now unrepairable anyway if the bearings fail (sealed drum).
Perhaps drifting the thread back on topic I just installed a “chimney sheep” a custom lambs wool plug to reduce the drought up the chimney which made a massive improvement.I was pondering one of them as well.
I’d definitely recommend it. Our problem, albeit a first world one, is balancing the temperature in the rest of the house. As a consequence the hall where the thermostat lives and host to the only non-TRV radiator is a lot warmer which means that the thermostat cuts in sooner making other rooms cooler…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59161949A few years ago I needed to buy a new washing machine and opted to buy a budget model. It came with a 2 year warranty and at just of 2 years it stopped working. I stripped it down to find that the motor brushes were worn out. I managed to bodge them to get the machine going again and went to the major retailer to order a new set of brushes. They took order and said they would call me when they were in. A week later I got a call to say that the brushes weren't available separately but they could supply a new motor at over £100 for a machine which cost less than £200 new. I took another look at the motor, noted the make and model, and did a bit of internet searching to discover that it was a very common motor used on many washing machines from all the major manufacturers, and a bit more searching led me to finding new brushes which cost me £2 inc postage. The moral of all this is that these machines are not marketed with the intention of them being repaired. The notion, regardless of the difference in cost between replacing a pair of brushes at £2 as opposed to replacing a machine at £200, that we should replace rather than repair is totally abhorrent to me. No wonder the planet is going down the tubes.
Utter bollocks - modern washing machines don't last 16 years! Most fail shortly after the warranty expires. They are built to a price and most are now unrepairable anyway if the bearings fail (sealed drum).
Not that it changes the problem of what it costs to pay someone who knows what they're doing to come out and tell you that it'll be a £100 motor, and then come back and fit it.Exactly. Even if they make spares available it will mean, as you say, that replacement a motor is available at £100 when all that is required is a pair of brushes, making repair not economically viable.
So in fact they're already quite likely compliant with the law. It will change very little. And:Not that it changes the problem of what it costs to pay someone who knows what they're doing to come out and tell you that it'll be a £100 motor, and then come back and fit it.Exactly. Even if they make spares available it will mean, as you say, that replacement a motor is available at £100 when all that is required is a pair of brushes, making repair not economically viable.
Only parts for "simple and safe" repairs will be available directly to consumers, including "door hinges on your washing machine or replacement baskets and trays for your fridge-freezers", he said.So it would seem that motor parts might actually become less available.
"Other parts that involve more difficult repairs will only be available to professional repairers, such as the motor or heating element in your washing machine," he said.
So in fact they're already quite likely compliant with the law. It will change very little. And:Not that it changes the problem of what it costs to pay someone who knows what they're doing to come out and tell you that it'll be a £100 motor, and then come back and fit it.Exactly. Even if they make spares available it will mean, as you say, that replacement a motor is available at £100 when all that is required is a pair of brushes, making repair not economically viable.QuoteOnly parts for "simple and safe" repairs will be available directly to consumers, including "door hinges on your washing machine or replacement baskets and trays for your fridge-freezers", he said.So it would seem that motor parts might actually become less available.
"Other parts that involve more difficult repairs will only be available to professional repairers, such as the motor or heating element in your washing machine," he said.
If the new deal is less good than your current deal (I assume, given the current market) I could well believe it.
Does this apply?If the new deal is less good than your current deal (I assume, given the current market) I could well believe it.
That's what worries me - I do have 14 days to decline - I'll try and phone them tomorrow - and then if it isn't consecutive get onto the Ombudsman
Does this apply?If the new deal is less good than your current deal (I assume, given the current market) I could well believe it.
That's what worries me - I do have 14 days to decline - I'll try and phone them tomorrow - and then if it isn't consecutive get onto the Ombudsman
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/10/martin-lewis--don-t-get-pressured-by-your-energy-firm-into-signi/
Some more explanation here
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/10/energy-bill-hikes-hit-millions-as-price-cap-rises-by-p139-yr---b/
I believe felstedrider also said the same a few pages or threads back
The price cap is nothing to do with your consumption, the cap is on the unit price.
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you
The price cap is nothing to do with your consumption, the cap is on the unit price.
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you
Sorry - I was confusing myself - it seems that we are paying rather less than the cap on the current fix to 31 Jan 22 and it looks like the exclusive deal to 30 Apr 23 is below the likely cap - both by some margin.
Only parts for "simple and safe" repairs will be available directly to consumers, including "door hinges on your washing machine or replacement baskets and trays for your fridge-freezers", he said.
Finally got around to contacting HES last week and tonight to contacting 3 of the big insulation installers, so no doubt I will be getting spammed with phone calls tomorrow.Years ago, a friend of mine was after double glazing. He did lots of research and plumped on $DOUBLEGLAZING_CO.
Is your underfloor area vented (It should have airbricks).
A membrane, stapled under the flooring joists, will help prevent drafts. Next step up from that is insulation above the membrane, between each joist.
After my rummage under the floor boards on Saturday I'm not convinced that either CWI or underfloor insulation are necessarily a good idea given the damp solum.
Still haven't heard from 2 of the 3 companies I contacted either.
Is your underfloor area vented (It should have airbricks).
A membrane, stapled under the flooring joists, will help prevent drafts. Next step up from that is insulation above the membrane, between each joist.
Why not just the Kingspan type panel insulation?
Is your underfloor area vented (It should have airbricks).
A membrane, stapled under the flooring joists, will help prevent drafts. Next step up from that is insulation above the membrane, between each joist.
Why not just the Kingspan type panel insulation?
Have a look at Gosforth Handyman on YT - he's doing up an old house did a video on installing insulation under the floorboards a couple of months ago.
Yes, there are air vents.
No, I'm not lifting the floor, or GAMI to lift it, it's too much disruption.
Having been rummaging around in the damp there's no danger I'm putting Kingspan anywhere near it.
Not sure a membrane on it's own to stop draughts will help much as the place is mostly carpeted.
I didn't realise you needed a membrane on top as well as underneath the insulation. I'm rapidly going off the idea. Sigh.
You don't have to have a membrane on top and it can be done from below the floor.I disagree, and so do the experts.
I consulted with the firm that sold the insulation.QuoteYou don't have to have a membrane on top and it can be done from below the floor.I disagree, and so do the experts.
You may not be concerned about reducing the effectiveness of the insulation by allowing air leakage, but you may be concerned if your joists rot. Of course mostly you will get away with it, but why bother with half a job?
Carpets with cats? Insanity. Thus says the man whose first act this morning was cleaning cat sick off the guest room carpet. I wish we'd had wood upstairs too.
Plus wood floor is evil for your neighbours*.Well, I (like the look) and don't care, cos they* always slam their front door (and it makes a
Problem with wooden flooring in a bedroom is low coefficient of friction.
If one were to have, say, a Lazy Sunday Morning, by the time you eventually get up you might find the bedroom furniture has re-arranged itself.
You could consider applying a layer of Wallrock insulation liner or similar for the mould problem, if you cant get anyone to dryline.
This tale is scary - someone who switched from oil and is now finding the ASHP very expensive.
https://myhomefarm.co.uk/potential-air-source-heat-pump-running-cost-issue
There are two things going on here: an ASHP struggles when it's cold outside (which is when you need the heating most) and the price of electricity rising due, ironically, to the cost of gas.
For a family already struggling to pay the cost of running a gas boiler, ASHPs are potentially disastrous.
we were paying £250 a month in oil (at 50p per litre) to heat the house
People who try to treat ASHP like gas or oil heating have problems. Their houses are cold.
2 assistances to the cost of resistance heating water Ali gside an AsHP stsrt "have you got a south facing roof"Most people with a gas boiler and a hot water cylinder crank up the flow temperature, because heating water to the usual 60 deg C using 63 deg C boiler water is asymptotically slow. Heat pumps are even worse. Oh, and you can wave goodbye to combis. Where do you put hot water storage in a newer house without an airing cupboard?
Must get round to that...
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Roof space or eaves for the tank2 assistances to the cost of resistance heating water Ali gside an AsHP stsrt "have you got a south facing roof"Most people with a gas boiler and a hot water cylinder crank up the flow temperature, because heating water to the usual 60 deg C using 63 deg C boiler water is asymptotically slow. Heat pumps are even worse. Oh, and you can wave goodbye to combis. Where do you put hot water storage in a newer house without an airing cupboard?
Must get round to that...
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People who try to treat ASHP like gas or oil heating have problems. Their houses are cold.
More like, their houses are not of the appropriate design and construction to benefit from ASHP.
Having looked at their photos I think their farm house is chuffing huge. Even the bathroom they ripped out looked bigger than my lounge and there seems to be a lot of open plan looking shots else where.
There is a reason why houses used to have small rooms.
Great sprawling spaces look lovely, but are hell to heat unless fantastic insulation.
FFS, what do I have to do? >:(
Today the doorbell rings:
Them: we're doing free boilers and underfloor insulation if your boiler is over 10 years old in your council area, you don't need to be on benefits.
Me: My boiler is only a year old but I've been beating my head off a brick wall trying to get insulation, can you do it?
Them: don't see why not, phone the office.
Me: <closes door, dances vigorously>
...
Phones their office.
No insulation unless you're getting a boiler as well.
FFS, what do I have to do? >:(
I'm hanging on to see if solar panels get subsidised. Plus I suppose it makes sense to get insulated first.
I'm hanging on to see if solar panels get subsidised. Plus I suppose it makes sense to get insulated first.
The only thing in my favour is that I have the use of an eyewateringly expensive FLIR camera, and can carry out my own post-installation thermographic survey.
How about buying shares in a wind farm. I saw this (https://diyinvestoruk.blogspot.com/2022/03/im-hedging-my-future-energy-costs.html) blog post today. I think this blogger is genuine. I know he is interested in ethical investments.
When barakta was a librarian in the early noughties, they were given boxes of (reasonably decent) CFL lamps to hand out to patrons. That was probably an effective measure, as many people were still routinely using tungsten at that point, and the library's demographic tended to the poor and elderly. I suppose there are still some CFL lamps kicking around today that could be replaced with LED, but if they're still going the duty cycle's going to be pretty low. You have to actively make an effort to buy a non-LED lamp these days.
Power strips are always useful[1], but I'm not sure they're going to do much to help people save energy.
Bonus points if the timer uses more energy than the device it switches off would do in standby :)
Draught excluders are always good, if they're the right ones for your draughty things. I've no idea how much benefit there is from sticking foil behind your radiators; presumably not much unless it's on an external wall.
I wonder if the objective here is some sort of green box-ticking exercise?
[1] As those following me on twitter (https://twitter.com/kimble4/status/1503123604296421380) will know.
When barakta was a librarian in the early noughties, they were given boxes of (reasonably decent) CFL lamps to hand out to patrons. That was probably an effective measure, as many people were still routinely using tungsten at that point, and the library's demographic tended to the poor and elderly. I suppose there are still some CFL lamps kicking around today that could be replaced with LED, but if they're still going the duty cycle's going to be pretty low. You have to actively make an effort to buy a non-LED lamp these days.
Power strips are always useful[1], but I'm not sure they're going to do much to help people save energy.
Bonus points if the timer uses more energy than the device it switches off would do in standby :)
Draught excluders are always good, if they're the right ones for your draughty things. I've no idea how much benefit there is from sticking foil behind your radiators; presumably not much unless it's on an external wall.
I wonder if the objective here is some sort of green box-ticking exercise?
[1] As those following me on twitter (https://twitter.com/kimble4/status/1503123604296421380) will know.
Power strips are always useful[1], but I'm not sure they're going to do much to help people save energy.
The main thing that this power strip and the switched outlet offer, are switching. Dutch standard wiring does not include a switch on the power socket, which means that for a lot of modern devices the only way to turn it off standby, and thus save the standby power, is to unplug it. By having a dist board or switched outlet adaptor, you can switch off the stuff without having to pull the plug out. Esp when the sockets that Schuko plugs into are almost all universally awful.
QuoteBonus points if the timer uses more energy than the device it switches off would do in standby :)
There is that. The suggestion was to use it for my phone charger, but I'm pretty certain the Iq of my phone charger is pretty close to, if now lower than the current use of a timer like this. I might use it with my hydroponics tho...
Quote[1] As those following me on twitter (https://twitter.com/kimble4/status/1503123604296421380) will know.I'm just jealous you can use all the sockets in the dist board. I have a number of dist boards where I can't use all the sockets cos the wall warts interfere with each other...
(Phonak themselves will be against the wall for using USB-C to charge the receiver while the transmitter still uses micro-B.)
Still use CFLs in the lounge and dining rooms, as so far I haven't come across led lamps equivalent to 200W tungstens, which will fit bayonet lamp holders.
What in this context is a "power strip"? Is it another name for an extension cord and socket?
Still use CFLs in the lounge and dining rooms, as so far I haven't come across led lamps equivalent to 200W tungstens, which will fit bayonet lamp holders.
Still use CFLs in the lounge and dining rooms, as so far I haven't come across led lamps equivalent to 200W tungstens, which will fit bayonet lamp holders.
200W :jurek: What are you doing in there, running an interrogation centre ;)
Still use CFLs in the lounge and dining rooms, as so far I haven't come across led lamps equivalent to 200W tungstens, which will fit bayonet lamp holders.
200W :jurek: What are you doing in there, running an interrogation centre ;)
Still use CFLs in the lounge and dining rooms, as so far I haven't come across led lamps equivalent to 200W tungstens, which will fit bayonet lamp holders.
In my quest to eliminate flicker I settled on the Sansi 22/27W lamps (which are excellent), with a BC22 to E27 adaptor. It does make for a 'long' bulb (ridiculously so if you then exacerbate matters with an E27 smart socket[1]) - which is fine with the large paper lampshades we've fitted in the interest of diffusion, but might not work with your fixtures.
[1] File under 'toys that turned out to be invaluable when barakta was immobile after her hip surgery'.
Still use CFLs in the lounge and dining rooms, as so far I haven't come across led lamps equivalent to 200W tungstens, which will fit bayonet lamp holders.
In my quest to eliminate flicker I settled on the Sansi 22/27W lamps (which are excellent), with a BC22 to E27 adaptor. It does make for a 'long' bulb (ridiculously so if you then exacerbate matters with an E27 smart socket[1]) - which is fine with the large paper lampshades we've fitted in the interest of diffusion, but might not work with your fixtures.
[1] File under 'toys that turned out to be invaluable when barakta was immobile after her hip surgery'.
Have the converters and large paper lanterns, but at £30 each.... :o
Can't remember if it was someone on here or my brother that pointed out the fairly major safety issue with bayonet-Es adaptors that due to the potential for neutral switching you definitley want to isolate at the consumer unit before fitting
GU10 is a pain in the hoop for alignment.
Yes, they should be treated as potentially live. As should bayonet sockets, tbh, as it's so easy to inadvertently stick your finger in them (DAHIKT). They're all shit, and probably wouldn't be allowed if invented today.
Yes, they should be treated as potentially live. As should bayonet sockets, tbh, as it's so easy to inadvertently stick your finger in them (DAHIKT). They're all shit, and probably wouldn't be allowed if invented today.
Back when I was a PSO, not only didn't we have that new fangled internet in our halls bedrooms (had to go down to the computer centre for that), one of the halls didn't actually have any mains sockets in the rooms. The only power was the pendant light fitting. Therefore everyone in there got BC double adaptors to allow both a light bulb and a BC plug on the end of a long bit of wire that had 13A sockets on the end. Wired to non-engineering student standards, with ancient hall electricity infrastructure that was only intended for light bulbs, what could possibly go wrong?
However, almost one in four (23%) said that they will continue to leave appliances on standby when inactive despite the fact it could save them money. Over two in five (43%) said this was because the effort of switching them off isn’t worth the cost saving and one in four (25%) said they just don’t care.
Items left on standby might be responsible for 23% of your domestic electricity use.
https://www.centrica.com/media-centre/news/2021/vampire-devices-drain-22bn-from-uk-households/
I've now fitted it with a smartplug so I can monitor its energy consumption, and shed the load at specific times
I've now fitted it with a smartplug so I can monitor its energy consumption, and shed the load at specific times
I may have missed this, but which smartplug are you using that gives a load measurement? I've got a couple of different types, but they only let me turn things on and off.
Items left on standby might be responsible for 23% of your domestic electricity use.
https://www.centrica.com/media-centre/news/2021/vampire-devices-drain-22bn-from-uk-households/
I heard someone on the radio complaining about energy prices saying they have to wear a jumper now.
I heard someone on the radio complaining about energy prices saying they have to wear a jumper now.
Items left on standby might be responsible for 23% of your domestic electricity use.UK average household electricity usage is 242 kWh per month. That's 55.66Kwh per month just on standby, assuming 30 days in a Month, that's 77 watts per hour.
https://www.centrica.com/media-centre/news/2021/vampire-devices-drain-22bn-from-uk-households/
(3) using the figures on the page that's 76 W 24 hours a day which would be a large number of TVs, phone chargers, etc.
We should but we'd rather drown/burn/etc.I heard someone on the radio complaining about energy prices saying they have to wear a jumper now.
I have previously ranted about office working colleagues who insisted on having office aircon set to 25C, rather than wear warmer clothes.
People have become accustomed to being able to wear just a T shirt (or equivalent), year-round. We are going to have to change behaviour.
Press and hold the standby button for 5 seconds on your sky HD box and it will turn off, rather than go to standby. The standby light should turn red rather than amber.Oh no, if you hold it for 5 seconds, it invokes the spirit of The Old One, who will proceed to consume your soul. By which I mean Uncle Rupert, not Cthulhu.
Now, for something completely different.....
It looks like the local authority are definitely funding us a (small) solar panel array. Four panels on a west-South-west facing roof.
So good so far (although I'll believe the panels when the electrons start flowing, given the saga thus far).
Is it worth thinking about battery storage in this situation?
Not many panels, we're at home during the day, and fully gas heated.
Now, for something completely different.....
It looks like the local authority are definitely funding us a (small) solar panel array. Four panels on a west-South-west facing roof.
So good so far (although I'll believe the panels when the electrons start flowing, given the saga thus far).
Is it worth thinking about battery storage in this situation?
Not many panels, we're at home during the day, and fully gas heated.
[turns over fag packet, sharpens pencil]
For eg, a deep-cycle AGM lead acid battery holding around 110 Ah will cost around £180. You'd have more than one, but let's calculate per battery.
You shouldn't drain it below 50%, so that gives usable 55 Ah @ 12-13V which is somewhere around 650 Wh (P=IV) which at a guess would cost around 10p from the mains.
Assume you cycle once a day (charge in the day, draw when the sun's gone down) that saves 0.1 x 365 x 5 = £182 over 5 years
I don't know if you'd actually get 5 years out of it cycling as deeply as that, and you'd also have to pay for a controller to make sure you don't kill the batteries early by discharging them too much.
Someone will probably be along in a minute to tell me I've got a decimal point in the wrong place, but I reckon the answer is probably no. If you have access to reliable mains electricity, that is.
When revamping our bathroom about three years ago, an LED light unit was fitted above the bathroom cabinet. It has a two pin charging outlet switchable between 115 and 230 volts. Unlike most of these the outlet is permanently live, rather than switched on with the light; I only use it once a week to charge my shaver.
I noticed that the transformer generates quite a noticeable amount of heat, and I have managed to balance the voltage switch between its two design positions, and thus in an effective off position (there's a green LED indicator). Probably not going to save a great deal, but I feel better. :smug:
When revamping our bathroom about three years ago, an LED light unit was fitted above the bathroom cabinet. It has a two pin charging outlet switchable between 115 and 230 volts. Unlike most of these the outlet is permanently live, rather than switched on with the light; I only use it once a week to charge my shaver.
I noticed that the transformer generates quite a noticeable amount of heat, and I have managed to balance the voltage switch between its two design positions, and thus in an effective off position (there's a green LED indicator). Probably not going to save a great deal, but I feel better. :smug:
Does anyone have any tips regarding my daughter emptying a 210 litre hot water tank to wash and condition her hair?
Some shaver sockets only turn on the transformer when something is plugged in. Some of those say "shavers only" as they can overheat with no load if left turned on for a long time. The transformers are made down to a price, and they scrimp on the iron, resulting in a lot of heating from the reversing magnetic field.When revamping our bathroom about three years ago, an LED light unit was fitted above the bathroom cabinet. It has a two pin charging outlet switchable between 115 and 230 volts. Unlike most of these the outlet is permanently live, rather than switched on with the light; I only use it once a week to charge my shaver.
I noticed that the transformer generates quite a noticeable amount of heat, and I have managed to balance the voltage switch between its two design positions, and thus in an effective off position (there's a green LED indicator). Probably not going to save a great deal, but I feel better. :smug:
I recently came across a USAnian boggling at the BRITISH approach to electrical safety in bathrooms (Leftpondians just fit normal switches and GFCI-protected sockets), to the effect that we go to all these lengths with our isolating transformers and pull-cord switches ...and then stick a 40A 240V water heater right there in the shower cubicle with you. Can't help feeling that they've got a point.
I suspect that if it's generating a noticeable amount of heat, de-energising the transformer will pay for itself in prolonged life of the fitting, even if the energy saved is negligable.
Take a meter reading next Thursday and submit it. Otherwise your provider will estimate usage before and after the cap rise, and you can bet they won't err in your favour.
Take a meter reading next Thursday and submit it. Otherwise your provider will estimate usage before and after the cap rise, and you can bet they won't err in your favour.
Does anyone have any tips regarding my daughter emptying a 210 litre hot water tank to wash and condition her hair?Standard shower should be about 12l a minute so 210l is only a 17.5min shower not excessively long. TJ
That was probably decided by a man thobut.A bald man
That was probably decided by a man thobut.A bald man
That was probably decided by a man thobut.A bald man
Indeed.
I had a quick-ish shower after getting back from a ride earlier. It appears that I spent almost exactly 14 minutes in the bathroom, of which about 1 minute was spent undressing, rinsing my HRM strap and boggling at a mystery bruise on my arm while the water temperature stabilised (combi boiler). I was in the shower for about ten minutes, and the remainder was spent drying off and brushing my hair (which isn't as long as quixoticgeek's).
If it were colder outside, I'd have spent a few more minutes in the shower simply getting warm again.
I don't understand what people do in long showers. But I think this is largely cos I spent many years living in homes with unheated bathrooms, so you got in, did what was needed, and got out as fast as you could before it got too cold.
A hot water bottle costs 6p an hour, apparently.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/06/martin-lewiss-cost-of-living-guide-offers-advice-to-desperate-households
despite being a bald man myself, my wife very definitely isn't (either bald, or a man) and has bum length hair. She takes less than 10 minutes to shower, and wash and condition her hair. In my case, I can set her porridge in the microwave for 4.5 minutes, dive into the bathroom, clean my teeth, wash my face and have a shower and get out, just as the microwave pings, so we can have breakfast together. Just get on with it, don't faff around in there!That was probably decided by a man thobut.A bald man
According to this Octopus are about to buy a heat pump manufacturer.Interesting. Red are very high-end/exclusive at the moment, so I wonder what products they are planning for the mass market.
https://www.businessgreen.com/news/4048180/octopus-energy-swoops-heat-pump-manufacturer-red-multi-million-pound-deal
In other news I *finally* got a quote for underfloor insulation, £710. Shame they didn't also for the CWI I also asked for...
According to this Octopus are about to buy a heat pump manufacturer.Interesting. Red are very high-end/exclusive at the moment, so I wonder what products they are planning for the mass market.
https://www.businessgreen.com/news/4048180/octopus-energy-swoops-heat-pump-manufacturer-red-multi-million-pound-deal
In other news I *finally* got a quote for underfloor insulation, £710. Shame they didn't also for the CWI I also asked for...
I now have one BT disc thingy, but it doesn't seem to improve things by a significant amount, so I'll only power it up if I'm keen to do something serious right up that end of the house, or just outside. I must measure the BT Smart hub 2 itself, but the previous Smart hub 1 claimed less than one watt. I notice that on this one, when I select to dim the blue light ring on it, instead of dimming it, it switches half of it off, so I've got two bright sectors, instead of a dim circle.
The information is there, but mostly in videos. This is what happens when Young People try to market something subtle and unintuitive.
...
The information is there, but mostly in videos. This is what happens when Young People try to market something subtle and unintuitive.
...
The information is there, but mostly in videos. This is what happens when Young People try to market something subtle and unintuitive.
I get loads of these – companies planning to reinvent what I'm going to do, here's an 18-minute video that will explain it (and probably ate up 95% of their borrowed capital to produce). Yeah, I'm going to spend the next several minutes watching a video from randoms in my inbox (that doesn't promise extreme tractor action). Try explaining it in a sentence or two with actual words.
I need to poke Home Energy Scotland as they've never replied to the email I've sent them but...
It's been a mostly nice day today, not boiling but ok. My office (south facing 1st floor) is boiling while the living room (N facing, ground floor) is still baltic (thermometer said 15 this arvo and I'm wearing 2 fleece blankets and a cat).
Seems to me like I'm missing a trick piping the heat from my office (not used at weekends) to the loafing area. Do such things (not whole house ducting or anything like that) exist that don't require a major project?
I've seen the term 'heat shifter' used on Australian website but not so much here...
Blockchain is definitely the best solution to all the problems no one actually has.
Anybody got views or experience of ripple energy which seems to be a co-op for erecting wind farms.
If the Co-op owns the wind farm are they responsible for repairs? Is it like owning a flat where you have to pay for any repairs? How long do wind farms last?
The website looks interesting but lacking substance.
https://rippleenergy.com/ (https://rippleenergy.com/)
Anybody got views or experience of ripple energy which seems to be a co-op for erecting wind farms.
If the Co-op owns the wind farm are they responsible for repairs? Is it like owning a flat where you have to pay for any repairs? How long do wind farms last?
The website looks interesting but lacking substance.
https://rippleenergy.com/ (https://rippleenergy.com/)
Our Mk 1 Victorian Terrace (and others we've lived in before it) has an almost permanent temperature differential between upstairs and downstairs, and I've often wondered about the practicalities of moving the heat from one to the other.We could really do with one of those, but it would have to go 2 floors (townhouse - office on ground floor is freezing in winter and cold in summer, bedrooms at the top are somewhere between warm and roasting). And yes, we have Tado thermostats and the bedroom ones are basically set to off for a big chunk of the year).
The closest I've seen to a commercial product are the reversible split-unit air conditioning systems which support multiple room units. Some of them can heat one room while cooling the other by switching appropriate valves in the refrigerant circuit. When they're doing this, it can effectively pump heat from one room to the other.
(Sings)
Heat won't pass from a cooler to a hotter
You can try it if you like but you far better notter
(Waits for audience applause not a sossidge :()
(Sings)
Heat won't pass from a cooler to a hotter
You can try it if you like but you far better notter
(Waits for audience applause not a sossidge :()
You missed the emoji for that :demon:(Sings)
Heat won't pass from a cooler to a hotter
You can try it if you like but you far better notter
(Waits for audience applause not a sossidge :()
Well it will but only statistically tiny amounts. The average will always go from hotter to colder :)
Heat cannot of itself pass from a cold body to a hotter body. But you don't need to pass heat to make a body hotter, you just need to squeeze it the right way. I have always found.(Sings)
Heat won't pass from a cooler to a hotter
You can try it if you like but you far better notter
(Waits for audience applause not a sossidge :()
You'd better send that ditty to the makers of air source heat pumps, quick.
I signed up for Ripple, because it's one of the few things we can actually do as Generation Rent.
The shares pay for the construction of the wind farm, its expected life is 25 years (but it may last longer, in which case more cheap electricity). It's insured against the unexpected (by which I assume things like freak tornadoes and BEAR attack, rather than shoddy turbines or government policy). At the end of life they'd expect to have to replace the turbines ("re-powering") or retire the wind farm (eg. because technology has moved on, and it's now uneconomical compared to offshore wind or superconducting solar from the Sahara or cold fusion or something).
The information is there, but mostly in videos. This is what happens when Young People try to market something subtle and unintuitive.
Blockchain is definitely the best solution to all the problems no one actually has.
I presume that ones n-Kw is supplied only 'when the wind blows' so a BEV or Flattery storage maximises ROI.
Recently we got the smart meter hooked up to the monitor screen that can tell us how much electricity we are using. It's vaguely illuminating, and I have been going around turning off things. The monitor device runs of 3 AAA batteries, or off a micro usb connector, the lead for which has an adapter for the main socket on it. The Adapter emits a low volume high pitched whine, and sometimes I can hear it when I'm trying to sleep, so I figured I'd just run it off batteries. They last a couple of hours, at which point, the low battery warning alarm sounds and wakes you up! WTF?
And how much juice does it use - have they sent me something that consumes 10W to tell me how to save electricity?
I assume there's no harm in turning the damn thing off all the time that no-one is going to care about what it says?
Our Mk 1 Victorian Terrace (and others we've lived in before it) has an almost permanent temperature differential between upstairs and downstairs, and I've often wondered about the practicalities of moving the heat from one to the other.When you solve that, let us all know.
The closest I've seen to a commercial product are the reversible split-unit air conditioning systems which support multiple room units. Some of them can heat one room while cooling the other by switching appropriate valves in the refrigerant circuit. When they're doing this, it can effectively pump heat from one room to the other.
Had a quick look at ripple (not videos, because); I got stuck on the idea that I would invest 1.7k over 12 months and get 3.2k back over 25 years - with a 3% inflation (which is currently a low-ball estimate) that's a loss of £500 in return for a big short term investment.
EDIT - I guess gas prices will rise with inflation, s maybe I'm being overly harsh - but it is a 14 year payback and 190% back on your investment over 25 years is not financially compettitive.
I had my 11 year-old Worcester Bosch boiler serviced by a British Gas engineer last week.
He had nothing positive to say about heat pumps (but did say hydrogen would be a good
alternative to gas).
I thought about Ripple as well, but decided I would probably be dead within the proposed timescales.
I had my 11 year-old Worcester Bosch boiler serviced by a British Gas engineer last week.
He had nothing positive to say about heat pumps (but did say hydrogen would be a good
alternative to gas).
Which is exactly what you'd expect him to say, given the amount of servicing and safety inspections a heat pump is likely to need.
Sure, in the event of a leak, hydrogen is safer than natural gas.Methane:- As a gas, it is flammable over a range of concentrations (5.4–17%) in air at standard pressure.
So a house is south facing, in the warmer months it gets the full blast of the sun on it from morning to evening. The rooms at the front will be over 30 regardless of day or night even though the day time temp could even be in the low 20s. Especially in a share house or flat where you need to keep the doors closed.Insulation also keeps heat out.
Has this been a problem in the past, maybe you need a drafty house in the summer and an insulated one in the winter?
Sure, in the event of a leak, hydrogen is safer than natural gas.Methane:- As a gas, it is flammable over a range of concentrations (5.4–17%) in air at standard pressure.
Hydrogen:- Hydrogen gas forms explosive mixtures with air in concentrations from 4–74%
and hydrogen flames are invisible.*
That doesn't look safer to me.
*I guess you could mix something with it to makes the flames visible, in the same way that smelly stuff is added to methane for leak detection purposes.
Are there any suppliers that offer spot pricing to domestic users?
Well, I FINALLY applied for a Home Energy Scotland loan for insulation today. Fingers crossed.Approval was supposed to be within 7-10 days but I only got my loan offer today.
Well, I FINALLY applied for a Home Energy Scotland loan for insulation today. Fingers crossed.Approval was supposed to be within 7-10 days but I only got my loan offer today.
Not only that but there's a mountain of paper work to fill in, still, and it's a really bizarre process as they don't actually advance you the money until after you've had the work completed.
Anyway, happily when I phoned the installer they said they were quiet waiting for funding for funded projects so they could come anytime from Monday.
Bit earlier than expected but let's get it over with. Next week will be busy, Tuesday the vinyl fitter is coming to do the kitchen floor, the insulation is Thursday and the smart meters that were supposed to be fitted yesterday will be next Friday.
It's normal for me to take a Navy Shower.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_shower
Sent from my moto g(50) using Tapatalk
It's normal for me to take a Navy Shower.I was always told (when in the RAF) that a squaddie shower was a couple of squirts of deodorant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_shower (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_shower)
Sent from my moto g(50) using Tapatalk
That's a Glasgow shower, usually involving Lynx.It's normal for me to take a Navy Shower.I was always told (when in the RAF) that a squaddie shower was a couple of squirts of deodorant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_shower (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_shower)
Sent from my moto g(50) using Tapatalk
under one's armpits (without showering) :demon:
Energy cap my arse, there is no bloody energy price cap! Until it is fairly applied to ALL fuels, I believe the existing partial cap should be removed. Another Government abandoning those in rural areas off the gas grid. The price of heating oil is over three times what it was.It isn't just a rural issue. Many urban properties are not on the gas network and many of those are rented with the tenants having no option to change. If you think heating your home with oil fired central heating is expensive, try doing so with electric!
The former Mrs Z is moving to a house not dissimilar to mine, but with one extra bedroom, and reckons her bills will be £500/month. Mine are £200/month including the annual spend on firewood, and I'm in all day. I honestly don't know how some people use so much. I am not particularly miserly with energy.
The calculation depends on when they're expecting their bills will be £500.The former Mrs Z is moving to a house not dissimilar to mine, but with one extra bedroom, and reckons her bills will be £500/month.
30 days in a month. That's £16.66 per day. Which at 30p kWh is 55.55 kWh.
The app (ECAS) I was using to record my meter readings has an average daily energy use of 7.3 and 36.8 kwh/day for electric and gas respectively. (It was over 78kwh/day for gas in December, mind).
CWI installation day tomorrow. Allegedly.
Even if we both spent 15m each in the showerIs that 15m per shower? If so, could that time be reduced?
Even if we both spent 15m each in the showerIs that 15m per shower? If so, could that time be reduced?
I do this too. The water is then used to flush the toilet when necessary.
When having a shower…..we place abucketplastic basin under the shower head to catch the water as it warms up,
I do baked potatoes in the combi - 350w microwave plus 200C conventional oven. No idea if this saves power. Definitely saves time though.Can you freeze them? I've no idea, it's never occurred to me to even try. I don't know whether batch baking then individual heating in a microwave would even save energy.
You can't really batch cook baked potatoes in advance - they don't keep well.
Can you freeze them? I've no idea, it's never occurred to me to even try. I don't know whether batch baking then individual heating in a microwave would even save energy.
This also gets me wondering if oven chips are really more cost efficient than heating oil on the hob and frying fresh potatoes.In that situation there's also the oil itself to think about – its manufacture, transportation and so on. Only part of which is a direct cost to the consumer but all counts in the overall seed-to-mouth energy chain.
I'm a convert to our Ninja thingy, relatively recently acquired. I cook chips in it, and use it for meat and fish instead of the oven. I would imagine it saves a considerable amount of electricity, as I'm heating such a small space.
I've found that roasting pork shoulder steaks in it takes far less time than the normal oven and they tend to dry out.
This also gets me wondering if oven chips are really more cost efficient than heating oil on the hob and frying fresh potatoes.
Our new/second hand cooker has two ovens. One is small and perfectly decent for meals for two (but not pizza).
Got to be more efficient heating a small oven than a large one.
Safety of the arteries too, or at least so we're told.
Or at least a reduction in reported chip pan fires, because those that do occur will be dealt with the chef throwing the kitchen boy's soaking apron over the fire, and the fire brigade Will Not Be Called because that might result in closure.
/c
Commercial stuff regulates the oil temperature properly, which surely helps. Same as using a dedicated firer(TBAGO) rather than a chip pan on a (possibly gas, for added source of ignition) hob.
It's still mildly impressive that the likes of KFC have minimum wage oiks deep-frying chicken under pressure without the occasional BLEVE.
Search YouTube for deep fried turkey.
I suspect people are going back/to log burners as an alternative to central heating
Most people don't use log burners properly, and create unnecessary smoke. Apart from using suitable wood, they need to be run on secondary air (no primary air) once they're going. If the wood is reluctant to burn without primary air, it needs further chopping or drying.
An appalling practice is to bulk up the fire, turn the air right down, and let it smoulder overnight. This turns it into a smoke/soot/CO machine. Unfortunately it's also SOP in many homes.
Down here in the subtropics we're still leaving a window open all night to make it cool enough to sleep comfortably!
Serious thought here about how to improve our Victorian semi.
#1 - Replace boiler. Current boiler is ~22 years old, but was class leading at 78% efficiency when we installed. Change to Condensing at 93% efficiency should lead to 20% improvement.
#2 - change our front sashes to slimline double glazed (12mm deep, argon/other gas filled). Units can be bought for about £1,300, not sure about the fitting cost. Uncertain benefit, but 6m2 of single pane glass does a lot to cool a room.
#3 - improve draftproofing on front door, consider if some sort of secondary glazing might be an idea for the stained glass, without making it look too naff.
Serious thought here about how to improve our Victorian semi.
#1 - Replace boiler. Current boiler is ~22 years old, but was class leading at 78% efficiency when we installed. Change to Condensing at 93% efficiency should lead to 20% improvement.
#2 - change our front sashes to slimline double glazed (12mm deep, argon/other gas filled). Units can be bought for about £1,300, not sure about the fitting cost. Uncertain benefit, but 6m2 of single pane glass does a lot to cool a room.
#3 - improve draftproofing on front door, consider if some sort of secondary glazing might be an idea for the stained glass, without making it look too naff.
Ham, I would be doing #2 first in terms of priority, although I guess it's then complicated by relative cost for 1 and 2 versus will the boiler break down forever as soon as you've sprung for new windows...Unfortunately, the boiler circuit board went bang last year (for the third or fourth time - it is the Achilles heel of what is, otherwise, a simple, reliable boiler). While our original plan was to sweat it a bit more, my calculation is that changing boiler would put a minimum of £400 a year back for a £3k-ish outlay, so a no-brainer thanks to current energy costs
I've been working through the same things for my C17th cottage. I'm installing the 12mm DG panels myself; each panel (about 330mm sq) costs around £35. I only have four windows in the old part of the house and one of those is only two panes, so around £490 for all four.
(https://i.imgur.com/ceCjcUu.jpg)
I will also be installing secondary DG on these windows, but that's quite a lot more expensive. The doors are thick oak, and were installed about 30 years ago with quite decent weather and draught sealing. I'm not sure I can do much to improve them, but I'm working on it. My biggest heat loss is the vaulted ceiling in the kitchen, which originally was a Victorian workshop or forge. It has some thin rigid insulation and a layer of 'bubble wrap' under the tiles but I can probably get another 50-60mm Celotex between the (very irregular) joists. But it will be a very messy job!
I don't think electric boilers make financial sense until there is less difference between the cost of electricity and gas.
I don't think electric boilers make financial sense until there is less difference between the cost of electricity and gas.
I might have misunderstood but I thought that gas is a fossil fuel whereas electricity can be generated using fossil fuels or through renewable sources. As such I thought we should be looking to reduce and eliminate our dependency on fossil fuels.
Every household will get €600 in electricity credits in three paymentshttps://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/09/27/budget-2023-main-points-vacant-homes-tax-introduced-excise-reductions-on-fuel-extended-tax-credits-for-renters/
Lump sum of €400 for fuel allowance recipients before Christmas
Double week cost-of-living support payment for social welfare recipients
Yes, that is what I meant. :)
I remembered I had a 500-tablet tub of Pepto-bismol still mostly unused
Serious thought here about how to improve our Victorian semi.
#2 - change our front sashes to slimline double glazed (12mm deep, argon/other gas filled). Units can be bought for about £1,300, not sure about the fitting cost. Uncertain benefit, but 6m2 of single pane glass does a lot to cool a room.
Ham, I would be doing #2 first in terms of priority, although I guess it's then complicated by relative cost for 1 and 2 versus will the boiler break down forever as soon as you've sprung for new windows...Unfortunately, the boiler circuit board went bang last year (for the third or fourth time - it is the Achilles heel of what is, otherwise, a simple, reliable boiler). While our original plan was to sweat it a bit more, my calculation is that changing boiler would put a minimum of £400 a year back for a £3k-ish outlay, so a no-brainer thanks to current energy costs
I've been working through the same things for my C17th cottage. I'm installing the 12mm DG panels myself; each panel (about 330mm sq) costs around £35. I only have four windows in the old part of the house and one of those is only two panes, so around £490 for all four.
I will also be installing secondary DG on these windows, but that's quite a lot more expensive. The doors are thick oak, and were installed about 30 years ago with quite decent weather and draught sealing. I'm not sure I can do much to improve them, but I'm working on it. My biggest heat loss is the vaulted ceiling in the kitchen, which originally was a Victorian workshop or forge. It has some thin rigid insulation and a layer of 'bubble wrap' under the tiles but I can probably get another 50-60mm Celotex between the (very irregular) joists. But it will be a very messy job!
Interesting, I'd be curious how you get on with them "as is" without the secondary glazing. Who did you use for the units?
I remembered I had a 500-tablet tub of Pepto-bismol still mostly unused
You do realise that, in the face of a global Pepto Bismol shortage, you could be sitting on a resource that could pay your winter heating bill?
That could backfire on you, ian.I remembered I had a 500-tablet tub of Pepto-bismol still mostly unused
You do realise that, in the face of a global Pepto Bismol shortage, you could be sitting on a resource that could pay your winter heating bill?
Hmm, it seems there is. The 500 tub is actually a Walmart Pepto knockoff called Soothe, but I also have a smaller tub of the real deal for special occasions.
I love the epic tubs they have in US pharmacies. I always think to myself, what if – after the fall of civilisation – I get a headache or indigestion? It's not like I'll be popping out over the blistered radioactive, plague-festering hellscape to Boots to buy a pack of sixteen tablets. On this basis, I never knowingly have fewer than 1,000 ibuprofen caplets to hand. The last thing I want at the end of the world is a headache.
My fuel direct debit is £69 per month. The £400 government credit for October to March works out about £67 per month. Octopus Energy have told me (via email) that between October and March my direct debit will be £2 per month. Yes, £2 per month.
Yes, I know my credit balance with them will eventually be eroded away due to what I use over
the coming months.
Serious thought here about how to improve our Victorian semi.
#2 - change our front sashes to slimline double glazed (12mm deep, argon/other gas filled). Units can be bought for about £1,300, not sure about the fitting cost. Uncertain benefit, but 6m2 of single pane glass does a lot to cool a room.
I suppose it depends on how big an energy bill you have for that to make financial sense. My annual bill is far less than that amount and thus I’d never get back the money from such a spend.
Slim Glass of Norwich. https://www.slim-glass.co.uk/
My fuel direct debit is £69 per month. The £400 government credit for October to March works out about £67 per month. Octopus Energy have told me (via email) that between October and March my direct debit will be £2 per month. Yes, £2 per month.
Yes, I know my credit balance with them will eventually be eroded away due to what I use over
the coming months.
My supplier has put me on a payment holiday as my expected monthly bill is lower than the gov credit. On the other hand, I don't have mains gas, so could quite do with the cash given that Calor have just hoiked up the price of tinned gas.
PS. Re. cheese on toast - quick decent toasting of the bread - cheese on & mw for few secs works pretty well. ;)
PS. Re. cheese on toast - quick decent toasting of the bread - cheese on & mw for few secs works pretty well. ;)
With cheese at around £10/kg and the price of bread soaring, I would hazard that a couple of minutes under the grill is a tiny proportion of the cost of cheese on toast.
Heating water is a serious use of power.
Whether it is a shower, washing clothes, bath or washing up; we use a lot of hot water.
Turning off the immersion heater and using a kettle really brought this home to me. Three very full kettles of water to get enough to wash up. Yes, we have a largish sink.
That is a real pain to do, so we only wash dishes up at most once a day.
Heating is coming on once a day now, so there is a tank of hot water. Even so, I'm restricting the amount of washing up I do.
Heating water is a serious use of power.
Whether it is a shower, washing clothes, bath or washing up; we use a lot of hot water.
Turning off the immersion heater and using a kettle really brought this home to me. Three very full kettles of water to get enough to wash up. Yes, we have a largish sink.
That is a real pain to do, so we only wash dishes up at most once a day.
Heating is coming on once a day now, so there is a tank of hot water. Even so, I'm restricting the amount of washing up I do.
Dishwashers might be energy efficient but they are extremely inefficient of space. They also take a long time, requiring a second set of everything that you can use while the first is being washed. And they are noisy too.
How about two dishwashers, one for waiting-to-be-washed, one clean stuff. Few cupboards needed.Needs four: one for waiting, one for washing, one for clean, one for best.
How about two dishwashers, one for waiting-to-be-washed, one clean stuff. Few cupboards needed.Needs four: one for waiting, one for washing, one for clean, one for best.
Good point: need a robot.How about two dishwashers, one for waiting-to-be-washed, one clean stuff. Few cupboards needed.Needs four: one for waiting, one for washing, one for clean, one for best.
Surely moving the stuff between them takes loads of time and effort.
Good point: need a robot.How about two dishwashers, one for waiting-to-be-washed, one clean stuff. Few cupboards needed.Needs four: one for waiting, one for washing, one for clean, one for best.
Surely moving the stuff between them takes loads of time and effort.
But then the robot can do the washing up.
The quickest dishwasher cycle may not be the most efficient. Check the specs.
The quickest dishwasher cycle may not be the most efficient. Check the specs.
Unfortunately, our Bosch d/w manual has no power consumption values or cycle times. I manually timed the Eco50 on our machine at 3h15mins!
The quickest dishwasher cycle may not be the most efficient. Check the specs.
Unfortunately, our Bosch d/w manual has no power consumption values or cycle times. I manually timed the Eco50 on our machine at 3h15mins!
This is what plug-in power meters (and fitting the sockets for whitegoods in an easily-accessed adjacent cupboard) are for.
I would not want manky plates and pans sitting around for 3 days, nor do I have enough pans to be able do that.Definitely this!
From the dishwashers I've used in holiday homes they seem to take hours and I've always failed to see how they can use less energy to take hours to wash some stuff I could wash in a a bowl in 10 mins. The only time I leave the tap running is when I'm rinsing glasses.Probably this too.
...
This is what plug-in power meters (and fitting the sockets for whitegoods in an easily-accessed adjacent cupboard) are for.
The quickest dishwasher cycle may not be the most efficient. Check the specs.
Unfortunately, our Bosch d/w manual has no power consumption values or cycle times. I manually timed the Eco50 on our machine at 3h15mins!
This is what plug-in power meters (and fitting the sockets for whitegoods in an easily-accessed adjacent cupboard) are for.
We don’t find old fashioned washing up a chore, 5 minutes at the most.
5 minutes of washing up is fine. More than a draining-board full rapidly becomes a chore, because then you have to waste time drying things to make room for the rest. And by that point your lower back is aching because whoever installed the cupboard under the sink didn't account for knee space for people with unequal leg lengths. Dishwashers make a lot more sense for bigger households.
Since there's just two of us, I see little need for a dishwasher, at least while I'm able-handed and around to do most of it. If barakta were on her own more often it would be a no-brainer (there being countless more fulfilling ways she can over-use her arms).
Dishwasher uses less water. Meaning less power to heat it. Various studies have shown a dishwasher is more efficient than hand washing.
I grew up with no dishwasher, no tumble drier. In my 70s I’ve still never had either. We don’t find old fashioned washing up a chore, 5 minutes at the most. Washing goes outside on the line or in the airing cupboard.The energy needed to run a dishwasher cycle could only heat a small quantity of water. Around 13 litres for a newish machine, maybe 20 for an older one, heated to 60 °C.
Watching the smart meter ( when it worked) illustrated that heating water is probably the most electron greedy thing that normally happens in a house ( unless you have electric heating)
Am I missing something?
I grew up with no dishwasher, no tumble drier. In my 70s I’ve still never had either. We don’t find old fashioned washing up a chore, 5 minutes at the most. Washing goes outside on the line or in the airing cupboard.What you're missing is that you have an airing cupboard! Line drying, in suitable weather, is the best way though.
Watching the smart meter ( when it worked) illustrated that heating water is probably the most electron greedy thing that normally happens in a house ( unless you have electric heating)
Am I missing something?
I know some people who live on a canal boat. They've been on it for 30 years now. They have a filter, four layers of charcoal, which can take a bucketful of canal water and turn it into something drinkable. It takes about one hour to filter one litre and has a capacity of 12 litres, which doesn't sound much, but they say it's enough for drinking water for two.I'm amazed that they'd drink canal water, even filtered.
So on that principle, it should be possible to install a higher capacity but lower quality filter to was clothes in canal water?
True. They don't use it for all their drinking water, only really when they can't get to a mains tap. The filters, judging by their slowness, must be far finer than those commonly used by hikers (Sawyer, Katadyn) but then the water must be dirtier to begin with. Filters sold for tap water in the home claim to remove heavy metals so maybe it's possible, with suitably fine filters, to filter out other liquids?I know some people who live on a canal boat. They've been on it for 30 years now. They have a filter, four layers of charcoal, which can take a bucketful of canal water and turn it into something drinkable. It takes about one hour to filter one litre and has a capacity of 12 litres, which doesn't sound much, but they say it's enough for drinking water for two.I'm amazed that they'd drink canal water, even filtered.
So on that principle, it should be possible to install a higher capacity but lower quality filter to was clothes in canal water?
There tends to be a fair bit of fuel and oil pollution in canal water.
I'm amazed that they'd drink canal water, even filtered.
There tends to be a fair bit of fuel and oil pollution in canal water.
Ah, the old "let's make the dishwasher more space-efficient by externalising the bulk of the solenoid valve" trick. One of Stan's finest works, that one. >:(
Ah, the old "let's make the dishwasher more space-efficient by externalising the bulk of the solenoid valve" trick. One of Stan's finest works, that one. >:(
To be fair that is protecting the flexible pipes,if the safety valve was in the machine a split hose would gush until it was noticed.
There should be a temp sensor on your tank - that will trigger the 'call for hot water'.Apart from the Pingus', it seems!
Having a separate temp setting for the hot water coil and the central heating would be quite a good idea. I don't think that is an option for any current boiler systems though.
Ah right - harder to implement for stored hot water, as you'd need a separate primary circuit from the boiler. They're normally just tapped off the CH run.All modern systems have a valve to turn on and off the primary feed to the hot water. It would be quite easy to increase the boiler temperature when the hot water is being heated. In most houses the hot water is a small fraction of the annual heating requirement.
There should be a temp sensor on your tank - that will trigger the 'call for hot water'.
Having a separate temp setting for the hot water coil and the central heating would be quite a good idea. I don't think that is an option for any current boiler systems though.
Also, £5 for 10kWh? More like £1. I pay 9.98p per kWh for gas.
Ah right - harder to implement for stored hot water, as you'd need a separate primary circuit from the boiler. They're normally just tapped off the CH run.All modern systems have a valve to turn on and off the primary feed to the hot water. It would be quite easy to increase the boiler temperature when the hot water is being heated. In most houses the hot water is a small fraction of the annual heating requirement.
Probably an argument for storing the heat in something other than water (preferably something that isn't prone to leaking, boiling or growing legionella), and regulating the flow through it to control output temperature. Ideally, you'd do a really good job of insulation and heat it to much higher temperatures to store more energy, but that precludes using a gas boiler as the heat source.
Probably an argument for storing the heat in something other than water (preferably something that isn't prone to leaking, boiling or growing legionella), and regulating the flow through it to control output temperature. Ideally, you'd do a really good job of insulation and heat it to much higher temperatures to store more energy, but that precludes using a gas boiler as the heat source.Sand.
Two things to point out in QG's analysis:
1. A typical indirect (which is what we're talking about) hot water cylinder is more like 150-200 litres. Direct cylinders are indeed smaller, presumably because they have to withstand upwards of 100psi. A direct cylinder is not something I'd want in my house.
2. Water is a really poor conductor of heat, and cold water is denser than hot water, so the cold water coming in at the bottom doesn't really affect things.
Also, stupid power shower uses 8kW, so I'm guessing it's heating cold water, rather than already heated water. :(
Also, stupid power shower uses 8kW, so I'm guessing it's heating cold water, rather than already heated water. :(
Our previous iteration had a temperature dial that allowed you to set actual temperature in Celcius. I assume that had some awareness of the concept of temperature. When that broke (after 8 years of service, so no complaints here), we got something a quarter as good for half the price - I'm sure this one just does as you says and is as dumb as it looks. :(Also, stupid power shower uses 8kW, so I'm guessing it's heating cold water, rather than already heated water. :(
Almost all electric showers have no thermal regulation - when you switch them on it just turns the element on at full power and the temperature is determined by the rate of flow. Some have an "ECO" mode that disables half the element.
And yeah, they're invariably connected to the cold water supply.
District heating seems to be the smart solution. For places that aren't BRITAIN, anyway, we'd never do something like that here.There is some district heating already with more being installed in, of all places, Marvinville.
In Thee Olden Days, Battersea Power station provided district heating for some flats across the river. Or so my fading memory branes of an episode of Blue Peter told me.District heating seems to be the smart solution. For places that aren't BRITAIN, anyway, we'd never do something like that here.There is some district heating already with more being installed in, of all places, Marvinville.
Indeed.In Thee Olden Days, Battersea Power station provided district heating for some flats across the river. Or so my fading memory branes of an episode of Blue Peter told me.District heating seems to be the smart solution. For places that aren't BRITAIN, anyway, we'd never do something like that here.There is some district heating already with more being installed in, of all places, Marvinville.
You can get tankless hot water heaters (which are basically electric showers but not designed to live in a shower cubicle) with thermal regulation electronics that might be able to boost a tepid supply. However they're also invariably designed for cold supplies only.
District heating seems to be the smart solution. For places that aren't BRITAIN, anyway, we'd never do something like that here.Not quite district heating but the block of flats where I misspent my teenage years had a central gas boiler that fed all the flats with (supposedly) hot air central heating.
You can get tankless hot water heaters (which are basically electric showers but not designed to live in a shower cubicle) with thermal regulation electronics that might be able to boost a tepid supply. However they're also invariably designed for cold supplies only.
Isn't the need for a cold water supply because there isn't enough pressure in hot water fed from a cylinder?
One of the benefits of a combi is hot water at not far off mains pressure. Our shower isn't quite as powerful as a good power shower, but is considerably more powerful than a Pissy Landlord Electric Shower.
Another benefit is not having to worry about how to store hot water. But yes, will be an issue if we ever convert to heat pump.
Unfortunately, it seems to also mean that come the winter the 3 way valve for the heating/hot water is broken due to lack of use and needs replacing. :(
Would there be any savings if we stopped messing around with the clocks twice a year?
I can't quite get my head around which way might yield any savings, if any.
District heating seems to be the smart solution. For places that aren't BRITAIN, anyway, we'd never do something like that here.Plus you'd get the fun of watching the district heating being turned on in waves across the country. I once got told that in Bulgaria the seasonal obsession was watching the communal heating being turned on in turn as the colder weather spread out across the country. People talked about it like Brits talk about the weather. It's even gets mentioned in the weather forecasts!
Plus you'd get the fun of watching the district heating being turned on in waves across the country. I once got told that in Bulgaria the seasonal obsession was watching the communal heating being turned on in turn as the colder weather spread out across the country. People talked about it like Brits talk about the weather. It's even gets mentioned in the weather forecasts!
Of course it's them out of user control such that buildings have heating set across the building with central control. It often ends up with it being too hot early in the season so often windows are left open with the centrally set heating on full! There's flaws in most things humans do I reckon.
District heating seems to be the smart solution. For places that aren't BRITAIN, anyway, we'd never do something like that here.
Unfortunately, it seems to also mean that come the winter the 3 way valve for the heating/hot water is broken due to lack of use and needs replacing. :(
It takes a lot less than that for a 3 way valve to fail. IME, for example, any of these circumstances seem to be sufficient to strain one utterly to deth:
- A 'y' in the day.
- The sky being above the ground
- Something about the colour of grass, I forget.
It's not out of user control. You still have thermostats on each radiator.District heating seems to be the smart solution. For places that aren't BRITAIN, anyway, we'd never do something like that here.Plus you'd get the fun of watching the district heating being turned on in waves across the country. I once got told that in Bulgaria the seasonal obsession was watching the communal heating being turned on in turn as the colder weather spread out across the country. People talked about it like Brits talk about the weather. It's even gets mentioned in the weather forecasts!
Of course it's them out of user control such that buildings have heating set across the building with central control. It often ends up with it being too hot early in the season so often windows are left open with the centrally set heating on full! There's flaws in most things humans do I reckon.
Unfortunately, it seems to also mean that come the winter the 3 way valve for the heating/hot water is broken due to lack of use and needs replacing. :(
It takes a lot less than that for a 3 way valve to fail. IME, for example, any of these circumstances seem to be sufficient to strain one utterly to deth:
- A 'y' in the day.
- The sky being above the ground
- Something about the colour of grass, I forget.
Odd, that has not been my experience.
I used a Y valve when I installed heating on the big barge. Couple of years of use, in a very damp environment. Then 3 years where the boat was empty, freezing in winter (I forgot to empty pipes one winter, they froze and burst).
Tested the heating about once a year. Y valve worked each time.
Most of them have a lever where you can manually set the valve position. Worth pushing that back and forth before deciding that the valve is knackered, I reckon.
I know I'm the only person left who likes the change of day light savings. But it was brought in during a time of resource scarcity, to reduce resource use...
Fair chance it's just the motor not working, not the physical valve - dead simple to replace and cheap as chips - lots of YT videos - this one does it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT6mq1440zMMicroswitch failure is most frequent, every 2nd winter usually (per switch, there's 2). Motors are good for ~5 years before starting to weaken. I'm currently in year 2 of a complete new head as the previous one had been repaired so many times I gave up with it. Agreed on the valve itself, that's not failed. Yet.
I work 1000-1800. I fall out of bed at 0955. And face the laborious commute to the other end of my flat. To power up the laptop at 1000.
I do tend to then cycle to work sometime before lunch. The 10 mins it takes is a nice screen break to think about what ever issue I've found sitting in my inbox that morning.
It's very civilised. I'm happier. And more productive than when I used to be forced to be at my desk 30 mins away by 090. That extra 2 hours in bed really works well for me. I goto bed at about 2am. My insomnia is also a lot better. I'm no longer trying to force myself to sleep 2 hours earlier than my body wants to sleep, just so I can be up earlier than my body wants to wake up. I've had insomnia for years. And while it's not completely gone now. (I'm writing this at 0240), it's a lot better than its ever been. The amount of doctors appointments, and prescriptions I've had. All of them to fight against what my body and brain finds more natural. I can't be the only one this is true for.
Many years ago when I was on JSA. I got offered an appointment at something stupidly early like 9am. And when I suggested that I'd be happier with something later. I was told somethy along the lines of "well when you have a job you'll have to get up early anyway, so get used to it".
We know we have people who are more night people and we have mutant weirdos who are morning people. That we have allowed the morning people to completely dictate the timezone that society functions upon feels... Misguided at best.
So many night people would be happier, and more productive of the were allowed to work within what they naturally want to do. Rather than be forced to work against who the are.
Bringing this back to DST. For me it's less about the time shift. As it is about the way it marks to me the changing of the seasons. The 1 hour forward in spring when you suddenly come home from work and it's still light. And you can sit in the early evening sun and have a drink and watch the sun set. And know you've survived another winter. Spring is here, and it's gonna be pretty. The 1 hour back in October is the price paid for that experience in march...
J
I work 1000-1800. I fall out of bed at 0955. And face the laborious commute to the other end of my flat. To power up the laptop at 1000.
I do tend to then cycle to work sometime before lunch. The 10 mins it takes is a nice screen break to think about what ever issue I've found sitting in my inbox that morning.
It's very civilised. I'm happier. And more productive than when I used to be forced to be at my desk 30 mins away by 090. That extra 2 hours in bed really works well for me. I goto bed at about 2am. My insomnia is also a lot better. I'm no longer trying to force myself to sleep 2 hours earlier than my body wants to sleep, just so I can be up earlier than my body wants to wake up. I've had insomnia for years. And while it's not completely gone now. (I'm writing this at 0240), it's a lot better than its ever been. The amount of doctors appointments, and prescriptions I've had. All of them to fight against what my body and brain finds more natural. I can't be the only one this is true for.
Many years ago when I was on JSA. I got offered an appointment at something stupidly early like 9am. And when I suggested that I'd be happier with something later. I was told somethy along the lines of "well when you have a job you'll have to get up early anyway, so get used to it".
We know we have people who are more night people and we have mutant weirdos who are morning people. That we have allowed the morning people to completely dictate the timezone that society functions upon feels... Misguided at best.
So many night people would be happier, and more productive of the were allowed to work within what they naturally want to do. Rather than be forced to work against who the are.
Bringing this back to DST. For me it's less about the time shift. As it is about the way it marks to me the changing of the seasons. The 1 hour forward in spring when you suddenly come home from work and it's still light. And you can sit in the early evening sun and have a drink and watch the sun set. And know you've survived another winter. Spring is here, and it's gonna be pretty. The 1 hour back in October is the price paid for that experience in march...
J
I reckon £36/yr for PLES vs £41/yr for one connected to the boiler. A bit more, but that doesn't factor in for less time spent rinsing under a decent volume of water for the latter.
Apropos of nothing, I decided to calculate the difference in cost between having our daily showers with the current Pissy Landlord Electric Shower TM vs when I get a proper one plumbed into the gas boiler. Based on 6 mins a day (total for both of us) I reckon £36/yr for PLES vs £41/yr for one connected to the boiler. A bit more, but that doesn't factor in for less time spent rinsing under a decent volume of water for the latter.
With those hours why do you bother about DST? I’d prefer a lighter evening to a lighter morning. I’m at my desk for 07:30.
Our shower is only 9.5kw so the 10 or more is academic.Not entirely. You know what a 9.5kW shower feels like, guesstimate what flow rate you'd like to have. Your xxkW desired shower will be xxkW wether it is heated on demand electric1, on demand from a combi gas2, pre-heated by a traditional boiler3, heat pump4, solar thermal5 etc, etc.
Our shower is only 9.5kw so the 10 or more is academic. My GCH figure is based on a 24kw boiler, and after significantly overestimating somewhere upthread, I timed my shower and it was 3 mins (and that's in the pissy landlord electric shower).
;D Ok, I admit defeat - don't think they actually exist...I've seen gas (heated) tumble driers before now.
;D Ok, I admit defeat - don't think they actually exist...I've seen gas (heated) tumble driers before now.
;D Ok, I admit defeat - don't think they actually exist...I've seen gas (heated) tumble driers before now.
They are an Americanism I thought...
Mine was in a campsite in the Lake District, where Getting Things Dry is a much sought after requirement.;D Ok, I admit defeat - don't think they actually exist...I've seen gas (heated) tumble driers before now.
They are an Americanism I thought...
Probably that feeble leftpondian anbarism again. In the UK they're mostly an industrial thing, sort of thing you find in laundrettes.
"And the clocks are going back this weekend!"
While we're on the subject of energy, I attended the Ripple Kirk Hill co-op AGM on zoom the other night. I've never seen someone look so tired as when a question was asked about the possible implications of having a new energy minister.
They do seem to be making steady progress on the windmill-construction front.
A friend talks of rewiring his kitchen to put everything on a single switch he can flip as he leaves the room, just to be sure nothing remains on 'standby'. I've thought it might be nice to switch off the entire house when going out. If only it wasn't for that freezer.
I do have the smartplug on the microwave programmed to switch off when we're in bed / the house is empty, which saves a whole 2 watts (1.5W when you factor in the power drawn by the smartplug itself).
I do have the smartplug on the microwave programmed to switch off when we're in bed / the house is empty, which saves a whole 2 watts (1.5W when you factor in the power drawn by the smartplug itself).
I have wondered if it was worth having the telly on a smart plug being as it's off for most of the day but can't be arsed doing the maths.
I have wondered if it was worth having the telly on a smart plug being as it's off for most of the day but can't be arsed doing the maths.
It’s other appliances (including smart plugs) that are worth worrying about.I must get me a plug in monitor to see how much my Chinese smart plugs are wasting. I do wonder if they are using more than I'm saving with some of the devices they control.
If you put rice in a pan and boil for about five minutes, you can then just leave it slowly steam until you need it.
Not potatoes though unless you want watery soup.
I have one of those mechanical plug in timers into which the dehumidifier is plugged. I run the dehumidifier for a couple of hours overnight when the need arises such as for drying laundry at this time of year. The timer itself has no indication on it about how much energy it uses so I simply unplug it when I get up and then set the timer dial and plug it in when I go to bed if it is needed.Doesn't it have a humidistat (not all do)? If it does, better to set that to a level where you don't get mould/asthma/rust and leave it on, letting it take care of when it runs or doesn't. Otherwise it's not doing its job.
Would be nice to know how much juice it burns but we are low use already and the extra load from the timer has been imperceptible against the dehumidifier and more lights at this time of year.
I like the idea of smart sockets but wonder about their consumption being in an always on status.
Still not using the heating but the Met Office forecast suggests that mllePB will be looking to supplement body heat and fleeces soon.
I was given/acquired/stole a tip for rice many years ago. Put rice in pan, cover with water to 1/4" above the grains. Bring to the boil, then simmer until the water level goes below the top of the rice. Turn it off and leave it for around 20 minutes. Result - perfect rice, no water. Doesn't work so well for brown rice, but it's not too far out as it takes longer to absorb the water.
Ham, if you get an OpenTherm and Boiler Plus compatible controller/thermostat then it should come with either or both 'weather compensation' or 'load compensation'. The weather comp can be either by means of an external temp sensor fitted to a N facing wall of your property (think Worcester who aren't OpenTherm do this), or it looks up the weather in location on the internet (how my Wiser system works).to
Boiler Plus gives other interesting options too:
https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/articles/opentherm-heating
An idea, but it would have to be severely hacked to disable the heater (and, to leave it working for emergency use in boiler failure scenario)
The main option would be to build something with an Arduino, which would typically be used for temperature control, but it is fascinating that there is no commercial product for something so widely used with substantial potential energy saving benefit.
In my experimenting to date, I have found that the mechanical thermostat (Honeywell) has a substantial dead zone, tuning up and down. That alone would be reason to go digital, each extra unnecessary degree costs ££.
d
Honeywell make a water temperature sensor that goes into the thermostat well of an immersion heater. I don't know if you could make use of that.
I suspect that the large dead zone is to make the thermostat contacts turn on and off sufficiently quickly.
My Glowworm has a MiGo stat. It does all the predictive stuff for the heating as described above and is controlled from an app on my phone.
Digging into the settings it allows adjustment of hot water temperature from the app although I don't think it can be linked to the timeswitch part. My knowledge of the hot water side is pretty much zilch though, as I use it with a combi boiler, so scheduling etc for hot water doesn't apply.
My Glowworm has a MiGo stat. It does all the predictive stuff for the heating as described above and is controlled from an app on my phone.
Digging into the settings it allows adjustment of hot water temperature from the app although I don't think it can be linked to the timeswitch part. My knowledge of the hot water side is pretty much zilch though, as I use it with a combi boiler, so scheduling etc for hot water doesn't apply.
It's only 'acos it's a Combi you can adjust temperature, it's in the boiler
Well, our new boiler is on place and while it is difficult to make any comparisons, as it coincided with the arrival of a colder spell, it does seem noticeably more efficient. Been playing with flow temperature (WHY does the manual tell you it's most efficient between 55 and 60, but then have no way of establishing that on the controls ??? - thermometer on the flow pipe is the only option)
Also playing with the hot water heating, and while turning down do you don't mix with cold works on some days, it doesn't on the others. So, having an app controlled thermostat makes some sense. Only, they just aren't available as far as I can see. Anyone know better? All the "smart" controllers only have on-off facilities, then relying on a mechanical thermostat to control the heat. Molding something shouldn't be too hard, but it would be much easier to get one off the shelf.
Well, our new boiler is on place and while it is difficult to make any comparisons, as it coincided with the arrival of a colder spell, it does seem noticeably more efficient. Been playing with flow temperature (WHY does the manual tell you it's most efficient between 55 and 60, but then have no way of establishing that on the controls ??? - thermometer on the flow pipe is the only option)
Also playing with the hot water heating, and while turning down do you don't mix with cold works on some days, it doesn't on the others. So, having an app controlled thermostat makes some sense. Only, they just aren't available as far as I can see. Anyone know better? All the "smart" controllers only have on-off facilities, then relying on a mechanical thermostat to control the heat. Molding something shouldn't be too hard, but it would be much easier to get one off the shelf.
I found one !!!!!! Huzzah !!!!! (https://www.heatingcontrolsonline.co.uk/drayton-digistat-plus-crf.html)
Wot ??? ? ? ? £240 ? ? ? :sick: ::-) :facepalm:
Given that you can get a basic digital controller for around a tenner, and it looks to be about a £50 Arduino project (Time is the issue there) I don't think I'll be partaking.
Cripes I don't know how you cope with 16C!
What are 'lifesavers'? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well, there are blankets of course, for the sofa/chair.Like one of these (https://www.dunelm.com/product/aaron-sherpa-throw-1000189792)?
What are 'lifesavers'? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well, there are blankets of course, for the sofa/chair.Like one of these (https://www.dunelm.com/product/aaron-sherpa-throw-1000189792)?
i just keep remembering my parents had no central heating when we grew up, neither did their parents etc.
It's the same reasoning we all face, just means you have no experience of two parts of the trilemma: you can comply with Tory ideology (turn up the heating or be held responsible for black mould etc), be rich enough not to care about it, or fast-forward to an idyllic passivehouse future.i just keep remembering my parents had no central heating when we grew up, neither did their parents etc.
I claim exemption from this reasoning, on the basis that I wouldn't have lived if I'd been born before about 1976, and would therefore have been spared a lifetime of poor circulation in my hands and feet.
Just bought one (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07VMTBV2Q/ref=pe_27063361_485629781_TE_item).
Yep, not quite the same but anything will do. They really are the Bee's patellas
@Chez BP we is economisering. (great new word btw :) ) We lives in a detached, 3 storey, 4 bed Victorian built abode, we does, with all thee probs of single skin walls. A few windows are DG, most are original sash with a secondary perspex sheet. So we has the heating set to 12 at night, up to 15 from 8am to 9am, down to 13.5 all day, up to 14 at 4.30, and up to 15 at 6.30. Sometimes we come in and its c o l d, at about 5pm, so we crank it up to 16, which then automatically chops back to 15 at 6.30. Dinner about 6.45 in time for CH4 news :), and then mug of T, and into the lifesavers.
Whilst watching a Scandi Noir, a while back, where it gets mighty cold, in peoples houses,I kept spotting lifesavers, so this winter we tried them. My goodness gracious me, why we never tried them before I'll never know. Our daily TOTAL of energy at the mo, and it's pretty damp and chilly, is hovering around £7. not too bad, and we are still over £1k in credit with EON.
What are 'lifesavers'? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well, there are blankets of course, for the sofa/chair. If you never have, you REALLY must. Its a core heat thing, room can be 15 deg, but in your sofa snuggerie, you are as warm as, if not too warm, so that when you go and make a T in the cold kitchen, you actually don't notice its cold. ;).
Also we has a de-humidifier, and we puts in the bedroom, and turns it on, about 1/2hr before bedtime, and shuts the door, it dries the room a bit and warms it up a bit, double whammy.
Just bought one (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07VMTBV2Q/ref=pe_27063361_485629781_TE_item).
Yep, not quite the same but anything will do. They really are the Bee's patellas
My house is benefitting (a little) from July's installation of double-glazed windows and last year's
extra 6 inches of loft insulation. But it's a pre-first-world-war house with no cavity wall insulation,
so is not as energy efficient as a modern house.
Anyone using a ceramic heater?
Anyone using a ceramic heater?
Just remember, your own body is THEE most efficient heater that exists.
Whilst watching a Scandi Noir, a while back, where it gets mighty cold, in peoples houses,I kept spotting lifesavers, so this winter we tried them. My goodness gracious me, why we never tried them before I'll never know. Our daily TOTAL of energy at the mo, and it's pretty damp and chilly, is hovering around £7. not too bad, and we are still over £1k in credit with EON.
What are 'lifesavers'? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well, there are blankets of course, for the sofa/chair. If you never have, you REALLY must. Its a core heat thing, room can be 15 deg, but in your sofa snuggerie, you are as warm as, if not too warm, so that when you go and make a T in the cold kitchen, you actually don't notice its cold. ;).
Anyone using a ceramic heater?
Just remember, your own body is THEE most efficient heater that exists.
Unlikely, since even a 3 bar fire is 100% efficient (it's just that 100% efficient at 4x the cost of gas is still expensive).Anyone using a ceramic heater?
Just remember, your own body is THEE most efficient heater that exists.
“”The Idea in Practice
The idea of transforming human body heat into electricity has been an ongoing process for scientists for years. In Sweden, for example, Stockholm Central Station uses heat exchanges to convert commuter body heat into hot water, which is then piped to an office building next door: an approach that can easily be replicated in shopping malls and supermarkets around the world. [4] Researchers have been attempting ways to power small devices, such as cellphones and laptops, when there is no conventional and accessible energy sources. At the University of Wisconsin, research engineers have created a shoe that utilizes reverse electrowetting to produce as much as a kilowatt of energy, just by simply taking a walk. [5]””
At the University of Wisconsin, research engineers have created a shoe that utilizes reverse electrowetting to produce as much as a kilowatt of energy, just by simply taking a walk. [5]
the average adult has as much energy stored in fat as a one-ton battery.
i just keep remembering my parents had no central heating when we grew up, neither did their parents etc.
I claim exemption from this reasoning, on the basis that I wouldn't have lived if I'd been born before about 1976, and would therefore have been spared a lifetime of poor circulation in my hands and feet.
Thank you for that rant, I've been trying to formulate something similar for days.
This. It *REALLY* pisses me off with the whole "but our parents didn't have central heating!"
/snip/
FUCK THAT SHIT. It's 2022. We should all be warm, we should all have full bellies, we should all be happy.
Thank you for that rant, I've been trying to formulate something similar for days.
This. It *REALLY* pisses me off with the whole "but our parents didn't have central heating!"
/snip/
FUCK THAT SHIT. It's 2022. We should all be warm, we should all have full bellies, we should all be happy.
I'm 67 and grew up to the age of 12 in a house - well 3 rooms upstairs in a house - with no heating in the bathroom or bedroom. We shared the bathroom with the family downstairs, and all 4 of my family had the same bedroom.
Coal for the two fires had to lugged through the downstairs kitchen and upstairs. Shit from the fire went to the bins out the front door.
The rooms were never warm between autumn and spring.
The only hot water was from an explosive device - an Ascot boiler - above the kitchen sink. (No, nothing in the bathroom).
It was a shit way of living and I have zero intention of feeling cold for days on end in my own home again.
Anyone who thinks that anything like my childhood experience is in any way appealing can go sodomise themselves sideways with a coal scuttle.
Hmm, quite a few touchy people out there. Remind me to never get stuck on a desert island with any of them……No one said it was appealing, just a fact of life, good job you’re not in Kiev…….rolls eyes.
The reality is that the insulation in British houses is so bad that we are simply burning gas to heat the outside air. If only a government had mandated decent housing standards 40 years ago.
Thank you for that rant, I've been trying to formulate something similar for days.
I'm 67 and grew up to the age of 12 in a house - well 3 rooms upstairs in a house - with no heating in the bathroom or bedroom. We shared the bathroom with the family downstairs, and all 4 of my family had the same bedroom.
Coal for the two fires had to lugged through the downstairs kitchen and upstairs. Shit from the fire went to the bins out the front door.
The rooms were never warm between autumn and spring.
The only hot water was from an explosive device - an Ascot boiler - above the kitchen sink. (No, nothing in the bathroom).
It was a shit way of living and I have zero intention of feeling cold for days on end in my own home again.
Anyone who thinks that anything like my childhood experience is in any way appealing can go sodomise themselves sideways with a coal scuttle.
… good job you’re not in Kiev.
We did get ice on the inside of the window of our unheated student bathroom. It was a cast-iron bath so you filled it with water at scalding temperature and the metal still felt cold on your arse as it sucked the heat away.
It's a fact of history, quite recent history – yes even within your lifetime! – and probably of the near future too.Hmm, quite a few touchy people out there. Remind me to never get stuck on a desert island with any of them……No one said it was appealing, just a fact of life, good job you’re not in Kiev…….rolls eyes.
Why accept it as a fact of life? Why not try to make improvements so it's not so cold? And yes, I'm very grateful I don't live in a warzone.
As for the desert island. If we need heating on a desert island, one would have to question what we did wrong... But hey, I don't have hobbies, I have apocalypse survival skill...
J
The former Mrs Z's parents had a similar monstrosity that ran on nutty slack and probably caused more pollution than Drax. This was in 2003.Sounds very Viz.
We've known about the principles of Passivhaus designs since the 70's, to not have built to those principles in the last 20 years at least is gross negligence of the house builders.
OOOoooooooo :o :o :o :o :o :o :o Hot off the press!!!!!TopTip ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! From 'Economisering 4U'
Just been to the attic and retrieved one of our summer rotary fans, (on a 2ft pole, and rotates side to side) Now our heating went off an hour ago, and it was only on 15 deg anyway, but we have the old 'style' school radiators downstairs, and they are still quite warm, due to the amount of water in them. So, I shuts thee door, then I places thee fan in thee corner of thee living room , I does, next to the corner radiator, then i points it up at about 45 deg, puts it on low schpeed, and on rotate,.............................yipppeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sat here in a T shirt ;D ;D ;D
Well, TBH not quite, but it has made a con Sid er able improvement. , can't wait for t'heatin' to come bak on agin. Schlippers, who needs 'em.
It's a fact of history, quite recent history – yes even within your lifetime! – and probably of the near future too.
A housing companies first responsibility is to it's shareholders, spending more on each house built than the absolute minimum would be gross negligence - welcome to capitalism. Much as I loathe the average council employee I find it hard to point the finger of blame there either as building companies have far better funded lawyers to fight at appeal. Nope, the blame lies with central government. All of them in the last 50 ish years regardless of the colour of tie they wore.
I agree totally soretween. Part of the job of government should be to look forward and to take the hard decisions on behalf of all of us.
Following on from this, we've been out, come home, put heating on, had dinner and pud, now nearly 7.30, (heating been on 2 hrs on and off as set to 15 deg, ) we recently turned it down , so the thermostat is now on 14.5 deg, with this oscillating fan on, and we are in our lifesavers, and i can honestly say, i'm thinking of taking my jumper off, (but staying undercover). Truly wonderful, Oh and we turned our boiler temp down to 62deg, so it is most efficient, but stays on longer. Our smart meter is now just short of £8 combined, BUT we are as warm as.
We should but it's a fact that we're not.It's a fact of history, quite recent history – yes even within your lifetime! – and probably of the near future too.
Yes, same as it's fact that right now children go to bed cold and hungry in the UK. One of the richest countries on the planet.
It's fundamentally wrong.
We should all be warm, we should all be well fed, we should all be comfortable.
In a normal year, 20-25% of Tory donations come from property developers or landlords. There is a lot of pressure to keep building the same old crap for stellar profits.
I've installed a Thing which I think was originally a thick bedspread on the Grand Escalier, in the hope that any stray therms that wander out into the hall don’t immediately flee up the stairwell and cower where can they do no good at all.
With pegs.
It's dark out there!Get out there, man.
“”The Idea in Practice
The idea of transforming human body heat into electricity has been an ongoing process for scientists for years. In Sweden, for example, Stockholm Central Station uses heat exchanges to convert commuter body heat into hot water, which is then piped to an office building next door: an approach that can easily be replicated in shopping malls and supermarkets around the world. [4] Researchers have been attempting ways to power small devices, such as cellphones and laptops, when there is no conventional and accessible energy sources. At the University of Wisconsin, research engineers have created a shoe that utilizes reverse electrowetting to produce as much as a kilowatt of energy, just by simply taking a walk. [5]””
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52545490598_7ab23cae1f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o4gnGs)
…with pegs! (https://flic.kr/p/2o4gnGs) by Mr Larrington (https://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_larrington/), on Flickr
Presumably there's an array of servants kept in waiting, affixed to the washing line thing by further tactical clothes pegs attached to one ear. Stops them wandering too far.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52545490598_7ab23cae1f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o4gnGs)
…with pegs! (https://flic.kr/p/2o4gnGs) by Mr Larrington (https://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_larrington/), on Flickr
Isn't that going to interfere with the operation of the bell when you next summon a servant?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52545490598_7ab23cae1f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o4gnGs)
…with pegs! (https://flic.kr/p/2o4gnGs) by Mr Larrington (https://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_larrington/), on Flickr
Isn't that going to interfere with the operation of the bell when you next summon a servant?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52545490598_7ab23cae1f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o4gnGs)
…with pegs! (https://flic.kr/p/2o4gnGs) by Mr Larrington (https://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_larrington/), on Flickr
Similar to disability accessibility standards in homes. 60% of councils have zero accessibility requirements. 1 in 55 people use a wheelchair full or part time, yet it's almost impossible to find a wheelchair accessible property to buy or rent without massive adaptation costs. ....Well said Barakta. Mrs Scum and I live in a block which has flat access and lifts. There is no flat access to the gardens. I asked management company to open doors to garden and put in ramp. Was fobbed off with "when block was built there were no requirements to have access"
Fucking Tories. We should have been building accessible and eco housing since the 70s and just haven't.
What are 'lifesavers'?It (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07VMTBV2Q/ref=pe_27063361_485629781_TE_item) arrived and it's smothering me. I'm impressed. Mind you, I'm also layered-up and wearing
Crikey!What are 'lifesavers'?It (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07VMTBV2Q/ref=pe_27063361_485629781_TE_item) arrived and I'm wrapped in it. I'm impressed. Mind you, I'm also layered-up and wearing
a fleece jacket, wooly hat and scarf.
Centre for the Cotswolds.Crikey!What are 'lifesavers'?It (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07VMTBV2Q/ref=pe_27063361_485629781_TE_item) arrived and I'm wrapped in it. I'm impressed. Mind you, I'm also layered-up and wearing
a fleece jacket, wooly hat and scarf.
How cold is it where you are? West Country, yes?
One thing it might be worth doing if it's freezing where you are tonight:-
Fill a bottle/Tupperware/whatever with water and stick it outside overnight.
In the morning, if the water has frozen, stick it into the fridge.
As it defrosts (changes phase) it'll take in energy (heat) and cool the fridge down so the compressor has to run less.
Nothing ventured ...
Nothing ventured ...
As they say, look after the pennies... but that's all it will save. Fridges don't use a lot of electricity* in the scheme of things.
What's more the heat coming out the back heats the kitchen. So bringing in some cold from outside reduces the work the fridge does but increases the work your heating needs to do. So taking your kitchen as a whole, you've added some extra cold. As my old physics teacher used to pose as a thought experiment: if you leave your fridge door open, does your kitchen get colder or hotter? Jerry Cornelius could answer that.
Just watched a Youtube clip about cleaning the dust from behind the radiators. Why have I never done this?
Just watched a Youtube clip about cleaning the dust from behind the radiators. Why have I never done this?
Because there are two ways to clean dust from behind radiators: One involves an air compressor and quite a lot of mess. The other is for people with far too much time on their hands.
Just watched a Youtube clip about cleaning the dust from behind the radiators. Why have I never done this?
Because there are two ways to clean dust from behind radiators: One involves an air compressor and quite a lot of mess. The other is for people with far too much time on their hands.
That's what radiator cleaning brushes are for.
My, it's cold out. I have been out since 5 and the indoor temperature has dropped by more than 1oC an hour. At that rate, it will be below 10oC in the morning. Obviously it won't, as the temperature differential narrows, but 13oC is likely.
Do you live in a tent?My, it's cold out. I have been out since 5 and the indoor temperature has dropped by more than 1oC an hour. At that rate, it will be below 10oC in the morning. Obviously it won't, as the temperature differential narrows, but 13oC is likely.
It was 5.6° indoors when I got up this morning, and 2.4° when I got back from work. Only just managed to bring the temp up to something reasonable.
I don't live in a tent, except on holiday, but where I do live there is no heating in the kitchen. At all.* I made the mistake of going in there barefoot about 9 o'clock and the floor was painful. The air temperature must be below 5 and the floor must be close to zero.Do you live in a tent?My, it's cold out. I have been out since 5 and the indoor temperature has dropped by more than 1oC an hour. At that rate, it will be below 10oC in the morning. Obviously it won't, as the temperature differential narrows, but 13oC is likely.
It was 5.6° indoors when I got up this morning, and 2.4° when I got back from work. Only just managed to bring the temp up to something reasonable.
Is there such a thing as a system that:
- Replaces the thermostat with a gadget that
- Communicates via the Devil’s Radio with a temperature sensor located somewhere sensible, and
- Sends on/off instructions to the boiler over the existing Anbaric String, and
- Doesn't require Kimlike Powers to install?
Is there such a thing as a system that:
- Replaces the thermostat with a gadget that
- Communicates via the Devil’s Radio with a temperature sensor located somewhere sensible, and
- Sends on/off instructions to the boiler over the existing Anbaric String, and
- Doesn't require Kimlike Powers to install?
I have discovered that despite the air temperature at head height being a nice comfy 18c, there's a howling gale going around my feet under the desk.
I had a shufty around with a surface thermometer and found the carpet temp is more like 16 under there and the skirting board is similarly cold, however that's not going to find me the source of the gale.
I suspect it's the tiny gap between skirting boards and the chip board slabs that make up the flooring below the carpet, and the tiny gaps between said chip board (it's probably not chip board I'd fall right through that)
Any ideas on how to confirm and seal?
I do know where the gale in the kitchen comes from as I found a massive hole in the plaster board when I was trying to find out why there was mouse shit in with my pans.
Is there such a thing as a system that:
- Replaces the thermostat with a gadget that
- Communicates via the Devil’s Radio with a temperature sensor located somewhere sensible, and
- Sends on/off instructions to the boiler over the existing Anbaric String, and
- Doesn't require Kimlike Powers to install?
Yes, I got a wireless stat fitted in the old Pingu Towers where there had been no stat at all. The receiver was under the boiler and I moved the stat depending on whether we were using the wood stove or not. Twas also a Honeywell.
..this foam https://www.draughtex.co.uk/how-to-fill-skirting-board-gaps (https://www.draughtex.co.uk/how-to-fill-skirting-board-gaps)Highly recommended. I wish I had discovered it to fill the gaps in my downstairs floorboards instead of caulk.
Had a scope around with thermometer at lunch, the ethernet port faceplate is at 12c, the radio aerial outlet next to it is also at 12c, the 2 gang power socket is at 15, the plaster board next to them is at 15, the power socket has been painted in, the other 2 have not, hm.
Plug fuses get warm when they're in use (obviously proportional to the current being drawn), which might have something to do with it?Point of order, m'lud. Temperature rise is proportional to the square of the current drawn.
I like Hive, it's simple and functional, I can change the temperature with my watch or phone (or Alexa, though I don't trust her not to mishear 20 degrees as 200 and cook me). Or you can twist the dial on the portable controller if you want to be old skool.
Is there such a thing as a system that:Yes:
- Replaces the thermostat with a gadget that
- Communicates via the Devil’s Radio with a temperature sensor located somewhere sensible, and
- Sends on/off instructions to the boiler over the existing Anbaric String, and
- Doesn't require Kimlike Powers to install?
Plug fuses get warm when they're in use (obviously proportional to the current being drawn), which might have something to do with it?Point of order, m'lud. Temperature rise is proportional to the square of the current drawn.
I have discovered that despite the air temperature at head height being a nice comfy 18c, there's a howling gale going around my feet under the desk.Today I noticed a very faint gentle draught very close to the carpet on our stairs but not any higher and blowing downwards. It was hardly noticeable but once noticed, it was obvious. Our permanently open radiator is in the hallway near the foot of the stairs and we tend to have the radiators upstairs turned down at the thermostat valve, plus we have a box room (where the PC is and where I'm sitting now) that doesn't have a radiator - so in the winter, upstairs is usually cooler than downstairs but hot air rises so it does get some heat from downstairs.
I had a shufty around with a surface thermometer and found the carpet temp is more like 16 under there and the skirting board is similarly cold, however that's not going to find me the source of the gale.
I suspect it's the tiny gap between skirting boards and the chip board slabs that make up the flooring below the carpet, and the tiny gaps between said chip board (it's probably not chip board I'd fall right through that)
Any ideas on how to confirm and seal?
I do know where the gale in the kitchen comes from as I found a massive hole in the plaster board when I was trying to find out why there was mouse shit in with my pans.
Do you live in a tent?My, it's cold out. I have been out since 5 and the indoor temperature has dropped by more than 1oC an hour. At that rate, it will be below 10oC in the morning. Obviously it won't, as the temperature differential narrows, but 13oC is likely.
It was 5.6° indoors when I got up this morning, and 2.4° when I got back from work. Only just managed to bring the temp up to something reasonable.
Someone upthread mentioned a fan to circulate the warm air that would otherwise collect at the highest point. I have a small fan, and it makes a difference.
I'm thinking of molishing something more efficient, my feet are very cold under the desk but the thermometer (high up) is reading over 23 degrees. Perhaps using a computer fan, run off a USB power bank, fixed into a plastic funnel, attached to a length of PVC pipe running from ceiling to floor. What does the panel reckon?
The flat here is connected to the district heating (via a heat exchanger in the basement) and is plumbed together with all the floors below me. Each radiator has a thermostatic valve, but it's basically a set and forget. In theory I could turn it down when I go out, and turn it back up when I get home, but that is a pain with 3 main radiators to fettle.Honeywell Evohome.
I'm trying to work out if there is some sort of controllable TRV replacement that I could use instead. Would allow for a finer control of the temp.
J
QG, I have questions:No idea how it works for QG, but where I lived in Poland many years ago, the heating charge was based on a sort of column of coloured water thing that was attached to each radiator and gradually evaporated. This figure was then put through a complicated algorithm taking into account what floor you were on, whether you were a corner flat, etc (so corner flats paid less per mm of evaporated water, or whatever it was, because they needed more heating to compensate for the greater external wall area).
A) if the heat is being made anyway what benefit is there to turning it down when you're out?
B) how does charging for district heating work, does everyone connected pay a flat rate per m3 of home or something?
I recall someone molishing an apparatus for a workshop using a large cardboard tube (sort of thing industrial quantities of fabric might be supplied on) and a conveniently sized fan.
I'd suggest that funnels are a bad idea; a larger diameter tube will allow the fan to operate more efficiently.
Computer fans usually run from 12V, so a 5V USB power supply isn't ideal. You probably disposed of a suitable wall-wart three weeks ago when tidying up.
QG, I have questions:No idea how it works for QG, but where I lived in Poland many years ago, the heating charge was based on a sort of column of coloured water thing that was attached to each radiator and gradually evaporated. This figure was then put through a complicated algorithm taking into account what floor you were on, whether you were a corner flat, etc (so corner flats paid less per mm of evaporated water, or whatever it was, because they needed more heating to compensate for the greater external wall area).
A) if the heat is being made anyway what benefit is there to turning it down when you're out?
B) how does charging for district heating work, does everyone connected pay a flat rate per m3 of home or something?
Honeywell Evohome.
Those can replace a TRV without letting the water out.
You can even get a district heating kit https://www.robertdyas.co.uk/trv-district-heating-starter-pack
Also, I noticed that Shelly do Smart TRV's these days if you want to molish your own.
Replacement TRV head actuators are available in everything from "normal TRV head with built-in power resistor" to "internet-of-shit Devil's-Radio-enabled smart things" from the usual suspects. As ever, it depends on how standard the mounting on your valves is, budget, and your enthusiasm for entrusting control to someone else's computer.
I bought a couple of fan things off the internet a few years ago which fitted onto standard radiators with a temperature sensor. When it saw a rise in temp it turned on the fan and sucked or blew air through the radiator gently and quietly. Absolutely brilliant. Sadly they seem to have stopped making them.I've got one of these on one of the living room radiators - in the part of the room with a relatively high ceiling. Possibly bought a following a recommended hereabouts.
They can be use completely stand-alone.
Honeywell Evohome.
Those can replace a TRV without letting the water out.
Do they require a network connection to an external service to operate or can they be used completely stand alone?
Do you live in a tent?My, it's cold out. I have been out since 5 and the indoor temperature has dropped by more than 1oC an hour. At that rate, it will be below 10oC in the morning. Obviously it won't, as the temperature differential narrows, but 13oC is likely.
It was 5.6° indoors when I got up this morning, and 2.4° when I got back from work. Only just managed to bring the temp up to something reasonable.
You got it on the second guess - on a narrowboat. With a good 50mm of snow on top of the solar panels, I don't have the electricity to run the central heating pump, so relying on solid fuel only.
Interesting that you're only just getting the coloured gel replaced with electronic devices, as I know some places were using them way back then – 2006. It all varied from estate to estate. I don't know if the calculation methods also varied.QG, I have questions:No idea how it works for QG, but where I lived in Poland many years ago, the heating charge was based on a sort of column of coloured water thing that was attached to each radiator and gradually evaporated. This figure was then put through a complicated algorithm taking into account what floor you were on, whether you were a corner flat, etc (so corner flats paid less per mm of evaporated water, or whatever it was, because they needed more heating to compensate for the greater external wall area).
A) if the heat is being made anyway what benefit is there to turning it down when you're out?
B) how does charging for district heating work, does everyone connected pay a flat rate per m3 of home or something?
So. Until a year or so ago, we had the column of coloured gel like stuff bolted to the radiator. And once a year they came and took one out, and put another in. Now we have electronic devices in each radiator which I assume tell a central box somewhere.
In terms of billing. The building gets a bill based on volume of hot water that goes into the basement heat exchanger. Then the 48 or so apartments in the building get a bill for their share of the total. Based on the numbers from the radiator measuring device. So if the radiator thingy says I used 100 of what ever the units are, and the total number of units used by the building is 10000, then I get a bill for (100/10000) X total bill for the building.
So I do get a bill based on how much heat I use, and thus having the heating on when I'm at the office seems silly. If I can have better control of it.
J
Bike lights probably give you more lumens for your lsd though (compared to fairy lights).Mine certainly do on account of being "dynamo" - but I don't fancy bringing the rollers into the living room - tbh I don't fancy using the rollers at all. I could top up the powerbanks whilst out in the day though. I think I'd rather sit in a room with fairy lights than a bike lamp (unless I was reading).
Everything on the indoor side of the insulation has to be warmed up, not just the air.
Insulation is an odd one. It works fine when there is a constant temperature difference between indoors and out. However, many people leave the heating off during the working day and only switch it on when, or just before, they return home. You'd be silly not to.We had a similar discussion with our central heating installer in our newbuild. The response was that CH should be left on constantly at a low level and the bigger the house the more important. They deliberately under specced the boiler and piping in order to get the contract and I did not spot it.
Anyway, when trying to raise a house from stone cold, the insulation doesn't speed this up appreciably. Everything on the indoor side of the insulation has to be warmed up, not just the air. To do that quickly and with minimal losses, you need a powerful heat source. My mid-90s new build was only acceptably warm at weekends in winter, because the CH simply couldn't get it to temperature between 4pm and bedtime. That had modern, not much different to current, insulation thicknesses.
I took the moneysavingboilerchallenge.com and failed.
They don't recommend it if you have a hot water cylinder, which is correct as you'd never get properly hot water.
They also say the average boiler creates the same CO2 in a year as SEVEN transatlantic flights. Why are we worrying about flying?!!
I took the moneysavingboilerchallenge.com and failed.
They don't recommend it if you have a hot water cylinder, which is correct as you'd never get properly hot water.
They also say the average boiler creates the same CO2 in a year as SEVEN transatlantic flights. Why are we worrying about flying?!!
I don't know, it beats me. The total emissions from aviation account for 2% of global CO2. That's all aviation, freight, crop spraying, everything, not just pointless business meetings in Singapore or multiple package holidays to Magaloof. If we grounded every plane permanently tomorrow it would make a gnat's crotchet of fuck all difference to climate change.
Most houses need bigger radiators. The problem is that there's nowhere to put them in modern shoeboxes.Or anywhere to put the bikes.
Insulation is an odd one. It works fine when there is a constant temperature difference between indoors and out. However, many people leave the heating off during the working day and only switch it on when, or just before, they return home. You'd be silly not to.Insulation of course slows down the losses from everything inside it, including the walls. So a well-insulated house shouldn't get stone cold before you come back and heat it up again.
Anyway, when trying to raise a house from stone cold, the insulation doesn't speed this up appreciably. Everything on the indoor side of the insulation has to be warmed up, not just the air. To do that quickly and with minimal losses, you need a powerful heat source. My mid-90s new build was only acceptably warm at weekends in winter, because the CH simply couldn't get it to temperature between 4pm and bedtime. That had modern, not much different to current, insulation thicknesses.
Okay, will have to experiment with leaving the heating on and seeing what happens.
This article is quite interesting. Needs legislation though....
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/12/energy-house-20-tests-tech-that-aims-to-make-homes-greener-and-cheaper-to-run
And if we're going to increase multi-occupancy living blocks (flats etc) then we MUST legislate for how communal repairs are handled. Even Scotland which has tenements galore does not handle this well. A friend is the only owner-occupier of one of 6 flats in a tenement and getting the other owners to pay for roof/wall and other repairs or other occupants not to block the back exit with crap is a nightmare.
I'd love to know how places like Finland etc which have civilised looking blocks of accommodation with basement storage AND often nice things like a top floor shared area, keep it all so nice and clean. Is this that an ongoing charge is paid towards upkeep by some kind of manager/staff to clean stuff and deal with rule-breaking or something else? Is it a cultural thing where it's unacceptable to be the skanky twat who dumps their trash in communal spaces?
And if we're going to increase multi-occupancy living blocks (flats etc) then we MUST legislate for how communal repairs are handled. Even Scotland which has tenements galore does not handle this well. A friend is the only owner-occupier of one of 6 flats in a tenement and getting the other owners to pay for roof/wall and other repairs or other occupants not to block the back exit with crap is a nightmare.
There are a huge number of very inefficient buildings in varying states of decay, not helped by inattentive landlords unwilling to invest, because demand far exceeds supply.Landlords won't invest when demand exceeds supply, because they can rent the building out anyway.
I can't talk for Finland either but in Poland, each estate, consisting of several blocks, would be managed as one unit. I'm not sure of the ownership or management details (flats within each block were individually owned but I don't know whether the ownership of the estate as a whole was wholly corporate or partly private) but yes there was a small charge on each flat, used for improvements (I remember our block being insulated, very effectively, circa 2005) and repairs. No tenants' committee to answer silly questions, that I was aware of.And if we're going to increase multi-occupancy living blocks (flats etc) then we MUST legislate for how communal repairs are handled. Even Scotland which has tenements galore does not handle this well. A friend is the only owner-occupier of one of 6 flats in a tenement and getting the other owners to pay for roof/wall and other repairs or other occupants not to block the back exit with crap is a nightmare.
I'd love to know how places like Finland etc which have civilised looking blocks of accommodation with basement storage AND often nice things like a top floor shared area, keep it all so nice and clean. Is this that an ongoing charge is paid towards upkeep by some kind of manager/staff to clean stuff and deal with rule-breaking or something else? Is it a cultural thing where it's unacceptable to be the skanky twat who dumps their trash in communal spaces?
I can't talk for Finland, but here in .NL normally there is a management company for the building, and everyone pays a little to wards it each month.
The building I'm in we have a coop, which we're all members of, with an elected board of members who make every day decisions, as well as approving or denying a lot of requests from residents. They generally get to say yay or nay.
So far they have said nay to:
- Spike trap in the hallway
- Electrifying the front door handle
- Having a pet Penguin
- Having a pet Capybara
They have said yay to:
- Me offering to clear snow from in front of the building.
We have a cleaner that is paid for by the monthly contributions from everyone who comes in once a week and cleans the communal spaces etc...
J
Yes. But often the whole 'ecosystem' is just too big to change in one swoop. If you did that, it would collapse. By changing it one piece at a time, you give everyone time to adjust and accept the new ways.This article is quite interesting. Needs legislation though....
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/12/energy-house-20-tests-tech-that-aims-to-make-homes-greener-and-cheaper-to-run
AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
"Here we are experimenting on how to make the crap we have marginally better, without taking into account the whole system of the built environment around it" - Roughly Paraphrased.
What are they testing? Single family homes, with a car parked out front.
If we are to build sustainable homes, we need to stop thinking in these terms. A month ago to a total absence of any fanfare Scotland announced that it would require new homes to be built to passivhaus standards:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/23197204.government-announces-passivhaus-standards-adopted-scotland/
I posted this on Mastodon and got quite a lot of replies to it. With varying levels of merit. On the face of it my reaction is: THANK FUCKING FINALLY! It's about 30 years too late. We've known about the principles of highly efficient house building since the late 80's, based on research started in the 70's. But my big reservation in all of this is that we still have this fixation on single family homes. Suburban developments that are only accessible by car, and thus reinforcing the toxic car culture we have today. What's the point of having a house that you can heat with a tea light, and uses about half a kilowatt hour of energy per day to run. If you then put a 100kwh car on the drive and use that to get to work 20km away.
We need to be looking at denser developments in walk-able neighbourhoods that are built to the sort of energy efficiency levels that Passivhaus standard offers. This doesn't necessarily mean we need 16 story apartment blocks everywhere (tho there are places where this is exactly the right choice), but maybe 3-4 story buildings with an apartment on each floor. Built such that there's a transit stop within a 5 min walk, that there's a bakers and a pub, and a park also within 5 mins. With secure bike parking in the basement, and some limited parking spaces for those who absolutely have to have a car.
I'm sure I've ranted before about how we have a problem with the way planning departments approach new developments "I'm sorry you can't build this ultra efficient home here, it would be out of place with our Victorian terrace rabbit hutches". It's something we really need to fix, for two reasons. One so we can start building ultra efficient homes (note, homes, not houses), as well as (and maybe most importantly), so we can start retrofitting the existing stock. For many homes that were built with solid walls, the only hope is either stick insulation inside the rooms, thus losing upto 0.3m of each inside dimension of the room, which is rather a lot given how small a lot of places are). Or we have to do something to the envelope outside. The later of course will change the appearance of the home and thus provoke the ire of the planning department who won't let you do anything that might make your quality of life better.
There is also the question of embodied energy in the building already, vs what if we knock it down and make something sensible in it's place?
But of course none of this is going to happen cos landlords have zero incentive to do anything about the energy efficiency of a place they rent out, and home owners won't be able to fund it. So unless the government is willing to fund it, we're stuck with housing stock that is basically fucking useless.
Hmm, I'm ranting again.
Point stands, stop concentrating on single family homes in a toxic car culture, and start looking at dense walkable neighbourhoods with proper public transport.
J
It may be a British thing, but people LIKE single family homes because:
Other people are noisy, messy bastards and you don't want to share so much as a party wall with them
Any communal resource will be abused (vandalised, parked on, or used for fly-tipping)
Companies like FirstPort gouge on service charges, while doing very little.
Yes. But often the whole 'ecosystem' is just too big to change in one swoop. If you did that, it would collapse. By changing it one piece at a time, you give everyone time to adjust and accept the new ways.
It may be a British thing, but people LIKE single family homes because:
Other people are noisy, messy bastards and you don't want to share so much as a party wall with them
Any communal resource will be abused (vandalised, parked on, or used for fly-tipping)
Companies like FirstPort gouge on service charges, while doing very little.
Concierge is important I think. Every large block in Tenerife seems to have one. Usually on the ground floor doing cleaning and minor handyman stuff. Then the block council to run things. Even when there is almost 100% absentee landlords this seems to work.
What is it about the U.K.?
My red lines for buying a house include no service charges or ground rent. The latter is pretty much dead now for new houses, as lenders decreed such properties are unmortgageable unless peppercorn. So the developers load the service charge instead >:(
(In Britain) There's no such thing as society. It's all Thatcher's fault. Plus we are all slackers and cheats who cut corners and try to get something for nothing.
If we are to build sustainable homes, we need to stop thinking in these terms. A month ago to a total absence of any fanfare Scotland announced that it would require new homes to be built to passivhaus standards:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/23197204.government-announces-passivhaus-standards-adopted-scotland/
It may be a British thing, but people LIKE single family homes because:
Other people are noisy, messy bastards and you don't want to share so much as a party wall with them
Any communal resource will be abused (vandalised, parked on, or used for fly-tipping)
Two competing heating systems are being tested inside: an electric-based system utilising infrared panels, some of which are disguised as ceiling coving, as well as a water-based system that uses heated skirting boards combined with an air source heat pump.
Going back to the article, this is one of the most interesting bits IMO:QuoteTwo competing heating systems are being tested inside: an electric-based system utilising infrared panels, some of which are disguised as ceiling coving, as well as a water-based system that uses heated skirting boards combined with an air source heat pump.
Is it more efficient to use electricity to heat the air directly, or to use air to heat water which in turn heats the air? We shall, perhaps, find out.
Or even just my 77 yr old stepdad who has a HUGE 5 bedroom house (he worked from home so had 2-3 office rooms) and seems insistent on still using tungsten lighting - a lot of it - everywhere and sometimes the heating at full blast even when he's got windows open in places. It's like the idea of being even slightly eco conscious doesn't occur or apply to him.
Going back to the article, this is one of the most interesting bits IMO:QuoteTwo competing heating systems are being tested inside: an electric-based system utilising infrared panels, some of which are disguised as ceiling coving, as well as a water-based system that uses heated skirting boards combined with an air source heat pump.
Is it more efficient to use electricity to heat the air directly, or to use air to heat water which in turn heats the air? We shall, perhaps, find out.
The point in those infrared panels is that they heat the humans directly with radiation, rather than through conduction by heating the air. So you feel warm in a colder room, which uses less energy than heating the whole room. I'm sceptical for Stupid Lungs reasons, but I've never spent significant time in a room with that sort of heating.
My thoughts exactly. IME it's mostly encountered in outdoor spaces, such as pub terraces, where it makes sense (if you have to have heating at all). OTOH it surely heats solid objects (rather than specifically humans) so you'll still have warm walls, meaning mould and damp shouldn't be a problem.Going back to the article, this is one of the most interesting bits IMO:QuoteTwo competing heating systems are being tested inside: an electric-based system utilising infrared panels, some of which are disguised as ceiling coving, as well as a water-based system that uses heated skirting boards combined with an air source heat pump.
Is it more efficient to use electricity to heat the air directly, or to use air to heat water which in turn heats the air? We shall, perhaps, find out.
The point in those infrared panels is that they heat the humans directly with radiation, rather than through conduction by heating the air. So you feel warm in a colder room, which uses less energy than heating the whole room. I'm sceptical for Stupid Lungs reasons, but I've never spent significant time in a room with that sort of heating.
I have also been sceptical of IR heating. If you used it as the only source of heat in your home, would it be damp & mouldy?
My thoughts exactly. IME it's mostly encountered in outdoor spaces, such as pub terraces, where it makes sense (if you have to have heating at all). OTOH it surely heats solid objects (rather than specifically humans) so you'll still have warm walls, meaning mould and damp shouldn't be a problem.Evaporating damp from a wall takes enough energy to provide the latent heat of evaporation, and you can't cheat physics.
But is it more efficient to heat the water and the walls, leaving the air cold, or to heat the air? Of course damp walls are only one consideration of domestic heating and probably not at all the main one.My thoughts exactly. IME it's mostly encountered in outdoor spaces, such as pub terraces, where it makes sense (if you have to have heating at all). OTOH it surely heats solid objects (rather than specifically humans) so you'll still have warm walls, meaning mould and damp shouldn't be a problem.Evaporating damp from a wall takes enough energy to provide the latent heat of evaporation, and you can't cheat physics.
The IR heating manufacturers are campaigning to get it recognised in the official category of low-carbon heating. It is not.Surely that's going to depend on the source of the heat?
It's just occurred to me that I have seen ice on the outside of the tent when camping, but never inside. So tents are obviously warmer than houses.It's the same reasoning we all face, just means you have no experience of two parts of the trilemma: you can comply with Tory ideology (turn up the heating or be held responsible for black mould etc), be rich enough not to care about it, or fast-forward to an idyllic passivehouse future.i just keep remembering my parents had no central heating when we grew up, neither did their parents etc.
I claim exemption from this reasoning, on the basis that I wouldn't have lived if I'd been born before about 1976, and would therefore have been spared a lifetime of poor circulation in my hands and feet.
I can't remember precisely when I last saw ice (not frost) on the inside of the bedroom windows in the morning, but it was probably in the early 1980s. Definitely after 1976. By then I was definitely old enough to not find it fun.
Been experimenting with the boiler flow temperature when it's only doing the rads, not the hot water cylinder. To maintain a comfortable temperature when it's -3 outside, it needs to be turned up pretty high. I don't have a clip-on pipe thermometer but I'd guess it's near 80 deg C.I agree about rad sizes.
This is a modern house with insulation to current standards and rads that are bigger than you find in most new houses.
Conclusions: low flow temps only work if you have laughably huge rads - and where can you fit them in small modern houses? - or you are willing to put up with a 17-18 deg living room. If you're sitting at a laptop immobile all day, that's too cold.
WHO recommend 21 deg C for a sitting room, which feels about right. Younger people can tolerate less (and if I were able to potter about, far less would be fine) but I'm chained to the desk by the tyranny of Microsoft Teams.
The World Health Organization in 1987 found that comfortable indoor temperatures between 18–24 °C (64–75 °F) were not associated with health risks for healthy adults with appropriate clothing, humidity, and other factors. For infants, elderly, and those with significant health problems, a minimum 20 °C (68 °F) was recommended. Temperatures lower than 16 °C (61 °F) with humidity above 65% were associated with respiratory hazards including allergies.[9][10]Wikipedia obvs
The WHO's 2018 guidelines give a strong recommendation that a minimum of 18 °C (64 °F) is a "safe and well-balanced indoor temperature to protect the health of general populations during cold seasons", while a higher minimum may be necessary for vulnerable groups including children, the elderly, and people with cardiorespiratory disease and other chronic illnesses. The recommendation regarding risk of exposure to high indoor temperatures is only "conditional". Minimal-risk high temperatures range from about 21–30 °C (70–86 °F) depending on the region, with maximum acceptable temperatures between 25–32 °C (77–90 °F). [11] [12]
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language identifies room temperature as around 20–22 °C (68–72 °F),[1] while the Oxford English Dictionary states that it is "conventionally taken as about 20 °C (68 °F)".[2] The ideal room temperature may vary by place and culture; studies from Nigeria show a comfortable temperature range of 26–28 °C (79–82 °F), comfortably cool 24–26 °C (75–79 °F) and comfortably warm 28–30 °C (82–86 °F).[3] Owing to variations in humidity and (likely) clothing, recommendations for summer and winter may vary; a suggested typical range for summer is 23–25.5 °C (73–78 °F), with that for winter being 20–23.5 °C (68–74 °F).[4] Some studies have suggested that thermal comfort preferences of men and women may differ significantly, with women on average preferring higher ambient temperatures.[5][6][7]which indicates cultural variation
In the recent past it was common for house temperatures to be kept below the comfort level; a 1978 UK study found average indoor home temperatures to be 15.8 °C (60.4 °F) while Japan in 1980 had median home temperatures of 13 °C (55 °F) to 15 °C (59 °F).[8]
I set the thermostat to 18 (6.30am-10.30pm) which seems fine. Previous flat (bigger rooms, higher ceilings, no insulation or double glazing) was generally at 19.5. We're using about £1.50 a day in gas at the moment (heating, hot water and hob), which doesn't seem too bad.
I set the thermostat to 18 (6.30am-10.30pm) which seems fine. Previous flat (bigger rooms, higher ceilings, no insulation or double glazing) was generally at 19.5. We're using about £1.50 a day in gas at the moment (heating, hot water and hob), which doesn't seem too bad.
That is very cheap.
I just checked, and over winter, we are using about £7 worth of oil a day. That is for a 5 bedroom detached house.
My SiL, in Oxfordshire, is shelling out £10 per day; and their house is smaller than ours.
I set the thermostat to 18 (6.30am-10.30pm) which seems fine. Previous flat (bigger rooms, higher ceilings, no insulation or double glazing) was generally at 19.5. We're using about £1.50 a day in gas at the moment (heating, hot water and hob), which doesn't seem too bad.Very cheap. I'm paying about £5 per day for gas and I don't think I'm being extravagant with
And running off red diesel in your home... tsk tsk tskI was under the impression that red Diesel is legal heating. Oil heaters often use kerosene instead of red Diesel but there's not much difference in characteristic or price.
I set the thermostat to 18 (6.30am-10.30pm) which seems fine. Previous flat (bigger rooms, higher ceilings, no insulation or double glazing) was generally at 19.5. We're using about £1.50 a day in gas at the moment (heating, hot water and hob), which doesn't seem too bad.
That is very cheap.
I just checked, and over winter, we are using about £7 worth of oil a day. That is for a 5 bedroom detached house.
My SiL, in Oxfordshire, is shelling out £10 per day; and their house is smaller than ours.
Still on a fix from before the price hikes (this is only a 3 bedroom flat though). I'm not looking forward to this coming December when it ends! I'm torn between making the most of the heating while we can still afford it, and getting used to the cold in preparation...
And running off red diesel in your home... tsk tsk tskI was under the impression that red Diesel is legal heating. Oil heaters often use kerosene instead of red Diesel but there's not much difference in characteristic or price.
My parents' house was heated with red Diesel until they changed to gas. I remember having to clear the wax from the filter several times in the cold winter of 1978.
Meanwhile, most of the windows in the sheltered housing at the back of my house are wide open, presumably because heating is included in their rent. You can't fix stupid.
And then the companies contracted to provide advice go bust...
https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/1619944454319898624?t=zUMGQydFnFEo2Cc_eHcDcg&s=19
FTFY
Why is our government
POTD!FTFY
Why is our government
Serious thought here about how to improve our Victorian semi.
#1 - Replace boiler. Current boiler is ~22 years old, but was class leading at 78% efficiency when we installed. Change to Condensing at 93% efficiency should lead to 20% improvement.
#2 - change our front sashes to slimline double glazed (12mm deep, argon/other gas filled). Units can be bought for about £1,300, not sure about the fitting cost. Uncertain benefit, but 6m2 of single pane glass does a lot to cool a room.
#3 - improve draftproofing on front door, consider if some sort of secondary glazing might be an idea for the stained glass, without making it look too naff.
If you can borrow one of those do, it is enlightening. I thought the new build (1997 is well new in this abode) extension would be reasonably insulated. Is it arse. You can get figures using an infrared thermometer but they are hard to believe. They are accurate but this human at least didn't believe the piss poor surface temperatures I was reading inside on a cold day. Seeing the pictures after I later invested in a Seek Thermal removed all doubt.
I'd post some horrifying thermal & visual shots from this winter but my photo hosting seems to be titsup. By horrifying I mean 7 degrees internal surface temperatures.
(Mrs P, if you have a USB C phone of recent vintage and you can root it to get USB OTG access then you'd be welcome to borrow the Seek)
Our first ever £1000+ energy bill since the time when they muddled the units on the meter. I wouldn’t mind if I had the thermostat set to Caribbean.
I haven't turned my heating on at all this winter - just piled on extra layers of clothes. Hope we're on the home straight now. 15.8C indoors now. Got down to 9C before Christmass.Excellent. I had a couple of heating free days recently. Mrs Snake was away.
Our first ever £1000+ energy bill since the time when they muddled the units on the meter. I wouldn’t mind if I had the thermostat set to Caribbean.
For what period?
I haven't turned my heating on at all this winter - just piled on extra layers of clothes. Hope we're on the home straight now. 15.8C indoors now. Got down to 9C before Christmass.
Open the windows.
You only get damp if you live in sealed box.
;D
Mine's off most of the time and use extra layers, but when I start to feel cold (i.e. when sitting for extended periods) it goes on at 16c. Getting properly cold isn't just bloody miserable - it also carries health risks.
Open the windows.
You only get damp if you live in sealed box.
;D
I'll turn the heating on, life's too short to be uncomfortable.
J
It's this health risk thing that's scaring me. I'm seeing a sort of "I'm better than you" pissing contest about who can use their heating the least, JIt does jump to extremes. It's a shame it's needed the price hikes for some people to look at their consumption and when they have many found ways to reduce it without impacting their comfort or health. While it was cheap enough, lots of people just didn't bother, you're an example of that, so unaware of your usage you've been paying nearly twice the capped price for years without questioning why.
There is a generally held view that energy has never been expensive enough. Not many people have ever really had to think about whether they do or don’t turn the heating on. See also, people happily idling their cars whilst doing other jobs.
Of course we have seen extreme price shocks and market intervention but it makes me wonder if a steady increase in prices over several years would have been noticed in the same way.
I suppose all 8 billion people on earth don't want to be "uncomfortable" either.
I think "wear a jumper" is saying put on appropriate clothes first and only after that put the heating on. When people are complaining of cold but only wearing a t-shirt in December, "wear a jumper" is very sensible.
Of course we have seen extreme price shocks and market intervention but it makes me wonder if a steady increase in prices over several years would have been noticed in the same way.I think for many it would have been easier to absorb, but those struggling to heat their homes would still be in that position however gradual the price increases had been.
Yes, wonderful. Have I told you that the second best thing about living in India was never having to wear many clothes? But as we don't have those houses, putting on a jumper (and even a fleece on top of that) should come before putting the heating on so you can sit in a t-shirt in January.I think "wear a jumper" is saying put on appropriate clothes first and only after that put the heating on. When people are complaining of cold but only wearing a t-shirt in December, "wear a jumper" is very sensible.
What if I was to tell you that we could build homes that use very little energy input and could be warm enough that people could choose not to need to put on a jumper?
A lot of housing stock is awful, and even stuff being built now is being built well below what it should be in terms of energy efficiency.
J
On Call The Midwife they all had thick wooly jumpers, so I think we didn't go about in T-Shirts back then.
On Call The Midwife they all had thick wooly jumpers, so I think we didn't go about in T-Shirts back then.
Of course we have seen extreme price shocks and market intervention but it makes me wonder if a steady increase in prices over several years would have been noticed in the same way.I think for many it would have been easier to absorb, but those struggling to heat their homes would still be in that position however gradual the price increases had been.
I also think subsidising the unit price was the wrong thing to do, some still can't afford the basics whilst others are having their luxuries subsidised. Even if the intention was to subsidise everyone, rather than targeted, the same expense could have provided a more generous subsidy capped at a reasonable level.
I think not means testing the subsidies was a mistake. Both BEIS and the energy suppliers said it couldn’t be delivered in time. As I have mentioned I have been receiving the £400 credit despite the fact that I fixed my energy tariff at the end of 2021 and I can afford to pay my bills. This seems daft. I did think, with 6 months to work on it, a fairer system would be brought in but it seems that’s not going to happen.
Obviously a better approach would be to stop mucking about with people's electricity bills and do it through the tax system instead.
I think not means testing the subsidies was a mistake. Both BEIS and the energy suppliers said it couldn’t be delivered in time. As I have mentioned I have been receiving the £400 credit despite the fact that I fixed my energy tariff at the end of 2021 and I can afford to pay my bills. This seems daft. I did think, with 6 months to work on it, a fairer system would be brought in but it seems that’s not going to happen.
As much as it pains me to say it, I think the non means tested setup is the right approach. Means testing will take too long, and it will create too many edge cases. We've seen how bad many government subsidy schemes are, look at how many people don't get the cycle to work scheme cos they fell through the edge case cracks. Or the difficulty people have had getting home energy improvement funding from the government.
While there are some people like yourself who really don't need it, there's far more people who might have missed out if the payment was means tested. Better to help everyone, rather than mess around trying to make sure only the deserving get it.
J
It doesn't pain me to say that not means-testing for anything is definitely the most equitable way.The point I was making about the poor application of subsidies mainly concerned the Energy Price Guarantee where every unit is subsidised, rather than the £400 discount which most households received. The price guarantee isn't equitable, the more you use the bigger your discount, while in most cases those in greater need were always likely to be lower users. Some are being subsidised to heat their swimming pool, run patio heaters, charge the Tesla... while others still can't afford to heat their homes and cook their meals. A tiered pricing structure, where the first X number of units received a higher subsidy and any usage over that is at full cost, or tapered, would have been equitable and may have discouraged unnecessary consumption. Those with minimal consumption, often the poorest, would have benefited from the same discount in financial terms which would be a higher proportion of their bills.
The low income person gets it for free, the middle income person gets it but pays it back through tax and the high income person pays it back several times over*.Is there an assumption there that everyone stays in the same bracket?
My house self-heats on sunny days but it's a PITA in summer.
Kim, I didn't think I could be more impressed by your technical know-how but you have just upped my esteem of your abilities to somewhere off the scale. Very well done!Agreed. Even with the frank admission about the use of solder blobs.
I don't think I'm particularly good at any of this stuff,
A follow on from this, since I'd included a power monitor, was the ability to switch off automatically if the supply voltage drops too low.
I think we've had the heating on more this winter than last, because with the new (but still minimal) insulation, it actually makes a difference.It seems this is an example of the Jevons paradox:
In economics, the Jevons paradox (/ˈdʒɛvənz/; sometimes Jevons effect) occurs when technological progress or government policy increases the efficiency with which a resource is used (reducing the amount necessary for any one use), but the falling cost of use increases its demand, increasing, rather than reducing, resource use.[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
I don't think I'm particularly good at any of this stuff...
I don't think I'm particularly good at any of this stuff...I think that's interesting. To those of us who can't do this stuff, those who can do it seem very good at this kind of stuff. But then, they would. And to those who can do this stuff, none of it seems difficult, because they can do it.
I don't think I'm particularly good at any of this stuff, my main skill is that I'm a cynic about reliability and stubborn enough to actually finish projects.
I could imagine a chest fridge as a stand alone unit beside a kitchen worktop, or an integrated version with a section of worktop on the lid. And I can just about imagine refrigerated drawers beneath worktops.
Awesome proof of concept though, Kim, not least because it shows how poorly controlled fridges are currently. And so many of them don't stay at the 1 to 5 C range they're meant to, at least not at the top shelf _and_ the bottom shelf. (Frozen cucumber, anyone?)Chest freezers are far better for storing hitchhikers and any other bodies you haven't got around to putting through he woodchipper.
On the subject of fridge design, I've always wondered why they are side loading rather than top loading. We know chest freezers are more efficient. Will I be able to buy a chest fridge in future?
refrigerated drawersHow would you stop the milk jug falling over?
On the subject of fridge design, I've always wondered why they are side loading rather than top loading. We know chest freezers are more efficient. Will I be able to buy a chest fridge in future?
Chest freezers are far better for storing hitchhikers and any other bodies you haven't got around to putting through he woodchipper.I made the mistake of reading that article, and I now want to unread it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Helle_Crafts (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Helle_Crafts)
We got a lot of unmetered electricity in a previous flat -- the very unsmart meter ticked round from time to time, but missed about 90% of our usage. Eventually they replaced the meter, of course, but there was no talk of our paying anything back.
Here’s a tip
1. Have your gas smart meter stop sending those 1/2 hour readings
2. Report this to energy company
3. Attempt to read meter by physically accessing meter and pressing menu buttons but it just says battery door open. Fail to spot any battery door that could be open. Can’t get manual reading. Report to energy company with photos and video. They do nothing.
4. Energy company gets reading at end of month and claims nothing wrong with smart meter. Get told your IHD isn’t working when neither app or website show energy usage either
5, The next month energy company get monthly reading from gas smart meter and it’s exactly same as month ago. As in it’s claiming zero gas usage in winter..
6. For the umpteenth time you contact them but they say meter working.
7. New energy company (Octopus) take over
8. You contact them with a summary of events. They agree meter needs replacing but need to talk to manager.
9. They get back. As it’s not an Emergency (Gas still works) it’ll be 3-4 further weeks before they’ll be able to get any engineer out.
Now has the smart meter been recording anything at all, or has it essentially been unmetered gas?. Find out 3 months after the whole saga started when they eventually come to replace meter. I shall be overlooking them doing it, to see if it has any reliable reading the engineer can drag out if it.
If it has been unmetered it’ll be an interesting discussion.
My boldAwesome proof of concept though, Kim, not least because it shows how poorly controlled fridges are currently. And so many of them don't stay at the 1 to 5 C range they're meant to, at least not at the top shelf _and_ the bottom shelf. (Frozen cucumber, anyone?)
On the subject of fridge design, I've always wondered why they are side loading rather than top loading. We know chest freezers are more efficient. Will I be able to buy a chest fridge in future?
Chest freezers are far better for storing hitchhikers and any other bodies you haven't got around to putting through he woodchipper.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Helle_Crafts
Here’s a tip
1. Have your gas smart meter stop sending those 1/2 hour readings
2. Report this to energy company
3. Attempt to read meter by physically accessing meter and pressing menu buttons but it just says battery door open. Fail to spot any battery door that could be open. Can’t get manual reading. Report to energy company with photos and video. They do nothing.
4. Energy company gets reading at end of month and claims nothing wrong with smart meter. Get told your IHD isn’t working when neither app or website show energy usage either
5, The next month energy company get monthly reading from gas smart meter and it’s exactly same as month ago. As in it’s claiming zero gas usage in winter..
6. For the umpteenth time you contact them but they say meter working.
7. New energy company (Octopus) take over
8. You contact them with a summary of events. They agree meter needs replacing but need to talk to manager.
9. They get back. As it’s not an Emergency (Gas still works) it’ll be 3-4 further weeks before they’ll be able to get any engineer out.
Now has the smart meter been recording anything at all, or has it essentially been unmetered gas?. Find out 3 months after the whole saga started when they eventually come to replace meter. I shall be overlooking them doing it, to see if it has any reliable reading the engineer can drag out if it.
If it has been unmetered it’ll be an interesting discussion.
If you changed supplier, then should have a final bill with the old meter reading on it, so that should give you a confirmed price up to that point. Not quite sure what happens after that.
Isn't "refrigerated drawers" a line from a BBC Radio comedy circa 1958?
Awesome proof of concept though, Kim, not least because it shows how poorly controlled fridges are currently. And so many of them don't stay at the 1 to 5 C range they're meant to, at least not at the top shelf _and_ the bottom shelf. (Frozen cucumber, anyone?)Chest freezers are far better for storing hitchhikers and any other bodies you haven't got around to putting through he woodchipper.
On the subject of fridge design, I've always wondered why they are side loading rather than top loading. We know chest freezers are more efficient. Will I be able to buy a chest fridge in future?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Helle_Crafts
So, I see that Ripple Energy's 3rd project is going to be a solar farm. Given that approximate cost to invest in this (for us) would be just under £2500, and getting our own solar panels would probably be in the region of £7000, based on current consumption (i.e. if we didn't get a heat pump put in) would the Ripple investment make more sense, or am I missing something else here?
I did find a statement somewhere that suggested the Ripple way would pay up to 25% of your bill, which didn't seem like much.
Digging into the Ripple website you have to be an Octopus customer to benefit from the discount. This leads me to assume that Ripple sell the generated energy to Octopus at the site and they then apply the discount to customers that are flagged as Ripple. No chance of that going wrong, then…
I’m currently staying in a family run cyclists hotel in Spain. It’s completely off grid. There’s a load of ground mounted solar and a shed full of batteries which are in the middle of an upgrade. They do also have a diesel fired generator which they try to minimise the use of. The interesting problem in the Summer is that they have to find consumption when the PV is running full whack and the batteries are charged.Hydrogen plant?
I’m currently staying in a family run cyclists hotel in Spain. It’s completely off grid. There’s a load of ground mounted solar and a shed full of batteries which are in the middle of an upgrade. They do also have a diesel fired generator which they try to minimise the use of. The interesting problem in the Summer is that they have to find consumption when the PV is running full whack and the batteries are charged.
I’m currently staying in a family run cyclists hotel in Spain. It’s completely off grid. There’s a load of ground mounted solar and a shed full of batteries which are in the middle of an upgrade. They do also have a diesel fired generator which they try to minimise the use of. The interesting problem in the Summer is that they have to find consumption when the PV is running full whack and the batteries are charged.Pump for irrigated horticulture?
On a general level, as we move to renewables, there may need to be a rethinking of how and when we use electricity to make the best use of it. We can't just expect someone to turn up the gas taps or chuck some more coal in a turbine to cope with any and all demand.Interesting point. Lots of unexpected changes around the corner.
On a general level, as we move to renewables, there may need to be a rethinking of how and when we use electricity to make the best use of it. We can't just expect someone to turn up the gas taps or chuck some more coal in a turbine to cope with any and all demand.Yes. Though a few kWh of battery in every home would help a lot from day to day. The problem is a fortnight of cold dull windless February when you rapidly exhaust domestic users' capacity to shift or reduce demand.
So, I see that Ripple Energy's 3rd project is going to be a solar farm. Given that approximate cost to invest in this (for us) would be just under £2500, and getting our own solar panels would probably be in the region of £7000, based on current consumption (i.e. if we didn't get a heat pump put in) would the Ripple investment make more sense, or am I missing something else here?argh! Yes, I have to look into that in my copious free time.
So, I see that Ripple Energy's 3rd project is going to be a solar farm. Given that approximate cost to invest in this (for us) would be just under £2500, and getting our own solar panels would probably be in the region of £7000, based on current consumption (i.e. if we didn't get a heat pump put in) would the Ripple investment make more sense, or am I missing something else here?argh! Yes, I have to look into that in my copious free time.
I figured I would bung them £X and see what happens and if it's good enough bung them £2X in the next round.
And of course automated demand shifting needs people to wire their home up to the Internet of Shit, as what no right-thinking individual would do.
Public Accounts Committee demands timetable for replacements, because things have run so smoothly so far...
How many people actually use less energy because of a smart meter? It usually goes:
1. Ooh, shiny energy monitor!
2. Oh, it won't show my actual tariff.
3. It takes up a plug socket in the kitchen.
4. It looks a bit shit.
5. Better unplug it and put it in the back of a cupboard.
How many people actually use less energy because of a smart meter? It usually goes::thumbsup:
1. Ooh, shiny energy monitor!
2. Oh, it won't show my actual tariff.
3. It takes up a plug socket in the kitchen.
4. It looks a bit shit.
5. Better unplug it and put it in the back of a cupboard.
We are on a BG fixed tariff (lower than the cap rate) for gas and electric - we're also signed up for "PeakSave Sundays" where electricity is half-price between 1100-1600 - savings so far total about a fiver . . but every little helps.
Just had an email with the text below - unless I'm missing something I can't see what the actual saving (or rate) is/might be - or how they measure the "saving" which seems to be based on "normal consumption". The Smart meter will apparently tell them the saving??
=
snipped details
Solar power predicted to be cheapest energy source in almost entire world by 2030:
(https://images.theconversation.com/files/556067/original/file-20231026-27-4ztmyh.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=342&fit=crop&dpr=1)
https://theconversation.com/solar-power-expected-to-dominate-electricity-generation-by-2050-even-without-more-ambitious-climate-policies-215367
A couple of interesting points about siting in the comments – eg over irrigation canals, reducing evaporation.
We are on a BG fixed tariff (lower than the cap rate) for gas and electric - we're also signed up for "PeakSave Sundays" where electricity is half-price between 1100-1600 - savings so far total about a fiver . . but every little helps.
Just had an email with the text below - unless I'm missing something I can't see what the actual saving (or rate) is/might be - or how they measure the "saving" which seems to be based on "normal consumption". The Smart meter will apparently tell them the saving??
=
snipped details
It's a bonus scheme. Several other energy companies trialled it last year. If you hit the target reduction you get paid a bonus. The bigger percentage drop you have, the more bonus you get paid. It's based on *your* normal consumption for that time period. That bit of it annoyed me - I've got low energy usage generally, including at the peak times; the point of the scheme isn't to get you to use less energy overall, it's to get you to use the same amount but off peak.
Having bored this thread extensively with my Opinions on domestic decarbonisation, from the point of view of an analytical drudge (third class) for the government, I am delighted to share that I've moved on to electricity systems modelling and am rapidly developing Opinions about charts like the above. Largely because the cost of one technology depends so heavily on the others available: obviously solar becomes much more valuable if there is long-term storage available (Greenland!). And because the cost to consumers doesn't depend on the cheapest source, but on the most expensive one you can't avoid paying for.
We are on a BG fixed tariff (lower than the cap rate) for gas and electric - we're also signed up for "PeakSave Sundays" where electricity is half-price between 1100-1600 - savings so far total about a fiver . . but every little helps.
Just had an email with the text below - unless I'm missing something I can't see what the actual saving (or rate) is/might be - or how they measure the "saving" which seems to be based on "normal consumption". The Smart meter will apparently tell them the saving??
=
snipped details
It's a bonus scheme. Several other energy companies trialled it last year. If you hit the target reduction you get paid a bonus. The bigger percentage drop you have, the more bonus you get paid. It's based on *your* normal consumption for that time period. That bit of it annoyed me - I've got low energy usage generally, including at the peak times; the point of the scheme isn't to get you to use less energy overall, it's to get you to use the same amount but off peak.
I've avoided participating in this scheme with Octopus for this reason. I'm in on the power-ups, where you get any electricity for free at peak solar / wind hours. But the saving sessions seem to rely on a comparison to normal use. Since I try to avoid "extras" running during peak hours already, the only way I can win from these will be to start running stuff during peak hours normally and then stop it during saving sessions. I don't really want to play that game.
Seems like a very poorly thought through idea, to give bonuses based on comparison to "normal" use.
Probably by country, so Greenland is probably included as part of Denmark. I doubt they have any separate data. Does Greenland have any sort of interconnectors to other power grids?Having bored this thread extensively with my Opinions on domestic decarbonisation, from the point of view of an analytical drudge (third class) for the government, I am delighted to share that I've moved on to electricity systems modelling and am rapidly developing Opinions about charts like the above. Largely because the cost of one technology depends so heavily on the others available: obviously solar becomes much more valuable if there is long-term storage available (Greenland!). And because the cost to consumers doesn't depend on the cheapest source, but on the most expensive one you can't avoid paying for.
Greenland and Finland are interesting ones in that map. Given they are dark for several months of the year.
I'd like to know how that would work out. Likewise Scotland...
Greenland and Finland are interesting ones in that map. Given they are dark for several months of the year.
Greenland and Finland are interesting ones in that map. Given they are dark for several months of the year.
Southern Finland does ok on this map, about the same as southern England and better than Ireland.
https://globalsolaratlas.info/map
Less cloudy if I'm understanding the cryptic numbers below correctly.
Having bored this thread extensively with my Opinions on domestic decarbonisation, from the point of view of an analytical drudge (third class) for the government, I am delighted to share that I've moved on to electricity systems modelling and am rapidly developing Opinions about charts like the above. Largely because the cost of one technology depends so heavily on the others available: obviously solar becomes much more valuable if there is long-term storage available (Greenland!). And because the cost to consumers doesn't depend on the cheapest source, but on the most expensive one you can't avoid paying for.
Greenland and Finland are interesting ones in that map. Given they are dark for several months of the year.
I'd like to know how that would work out. Likewise Scotland...
J
Cruachan
Glen Doe
Other projects in the pipleline, including Cruachan Mk2
Hunterston B is decommissioning and Torness has 5 years left so their original source of power is going.
Top 3 are hydro dams.Cruachan
Glen Doe
Other projects in the pipleline, including Cruachan Mk2
Hunterston B is decommissioning and Torness has 5 years left so their original source of power is going.
I think I've missed something here. Can you provide some context please?
J
On map c, it looks like Greenland is dark blue (offshore wind) and Denmark is light blue (onshore). Though it's hard to tell cos Denmark's small.Probably by country, so Greenland is probably included as part of Denmark. I doubt they have any separate data. Does Greenland have any sort of interconnectors to other power grids?Having bored this thread extensively with my Opinions on domestic decarbonisation, from the point of view of an analytical drudge (third class) for the government, I am delighted to share that I've moved on to electricity systems modelling and am rapidly developing Opinions about charts like the above. Largely because the cost of one technology depends so heavily on the others available: obviously solar becomes much more valuable if there is long-term storage available (Greenland!). And because the cost to consumers doesn't depend on the cheapest source, but on the most expensive one you can't avoid paying for.
Greenland and Finland are interesting ones in that map. Given they are dark for several months of the year.
I'd like to know how that would work out. Likewise Scotland...
I presume that map includes solar imported from elsewhere.
not burning fossil fuels indoors
Firing up a combi boiler and waiting a short eternity for hot water to come through is effing ridiculous if you're just looking to wash your hands or rinse a mug or whatever, from both a wasted energy and a convenience POV.
I'm not sure I'd agree on the low up-front cost. Sure it's a lot cheaper than a boiler, either gas or electric, but it doesn't replace one, since it's only one tap; even if you use them for every tap, you still need some form of room heating. And it's a very expensive tap.
Yes, I suppose it is. (So why are we told to put a CO monitor next to it? Presumably just in case of something going very wrong?)Quotenot burning fossil fuels indoors
the combustion chamber in a gas boiler is topologically outdoors unless something is very wrong
See my second paragraph!I'm not sure I'd agree on the low up-front cost. Sure it's a lot cheaper than a boiler, either gas or electric, but it doesn't replace one, since it's only one tap; even if you use them for every tap, you still need some form of room heating. And it's a very expensive tap.
Not all taps are in homes, or even heated buildings, thobut.
Yes, I suppose it is. (So why are we told to put a CO monitor next to it? Presumably just in case of something going very wrong?)Quotenot burning fossil fuels indoors
the combustion chamber in a gas boiler is topologically outdoors unless something is very wrong
Those instant hot water taps are brilliant, no waiting for kettle or urn to hear up what is almost certainly too much water, whether they're more efficient or not I have no idea.There seem to be two different things. The electrically heated taps, as in my link, which I don't think I've ever encountered in the metal. And the things like plumbed-in tea urns, often encountered in eg village halls, which do indeed often dispense water that's not quite hot enough for the intended purpose. I presume, from the gurgling they make, this sort actually heat up a tank-let full of water all the time, which they dispense as required; so more like a standard boiler.
The one at work seems to be permanently broken though and so is the chilled water side.
Those wall mounted mildly warm water things are the work of the devil, particularly since all the sinks have hot water taps and piping but seemingly someone disconnected some of them in the building,l at some point, the touch free ones broke in weeks, the ones with handles... Well I just end up with a cold hand wash in the bigs that have them
Sent from my IV2201 using Tapatalk
And the things like plumbed-in tea urns, often encountered in eg village halls, which do indeed often dispense water that's not quite hot enough for the intended purpose. I presume, from the gurgling they make, this sort actually heat up a tank-let full of water all the time, which they dispense as required; so more like a standard boiler.
Your link showed me taps that dispense water at 98c hence thinking you meant them, which may have been a result of my low sampling rate (2 click through)Those instant hot water taps are brilliant, no waiting for kettle or urn to hear up what is almost certainly too much water, whether they're more efficient or not I have no idea.There seem to be two different things. The electrically heated taps, as in my link, which I don't think I've ever encountered in the metal. And the things like plumbed-in tea urns, often encountered in eg village halls, which do indeed often dispense water that's not quite hot enough for the intended purpose. I presume, from the gurgling they make, this sort actually heat up a tank-let full of water all the time, which they dispense as required; so more like a standard boiler.
The one at work seems to be permanently broken though and so is the chilled water side.
Those wall mounted mildly warm water things are the work of the devil, particularly since all the sinks have hot water taps and piping but seemingly someone disconnected some of them in the building,l at some point, the touch free ones broke in weeks, the ones with handles... Well I just end up with a cold hand wash in the bigs that have them
Sent from my IV2201 using Tapatalk
It was the taps. TBH I didn't realize till looking them up that they delivered boiling water; the way they described it was just hot water. But I've found the very same model and it's boiling, or nearly boiling, water, from a tap, heated at the tap.Your link showed me taps that dispense water at 98c hence thinking you meant them, which may have been a result of my low sampling rate (2 click through)Those instant hot water taps are brilliant, no waiting for kettle or urn to hear up what is almost certainly too much water, whether they're more efficient or not I have no idea.There seem to be two different things. The electrically heated taps, as in my link, which I don't think I've ever encountered in the metal. And the things like plumbed-in tea urns, often encountered in eg village halls, which do indeed often dispense water that's not quite hot enough for the intended purpose. I presume, from the gurgling they make, this sort actually heat up a tank-let full of water all the time, which they dispense as required; so more like a standard boiler.
The one at work seems to be permanently broken though and so is the chilled water side.
Those wall mounted mildly warm water things are the work of the devil, particularly since all the sinks have hot water taps and piping but seemingly someone disconnected some of them in the building,l at some point, the touch free ones broke in weeks, the ones with handles... Well I just end up with a cold hand wash in the bigs that have them
Sent from my IV2201 using Tapatalk
Sent from my IV2201 using Tapatalk
I'm not sure I'd agree on the low up-front cost. Sure it's a lot cheaper than a boiler, either gas or electric, but it doesn't replace one, since it's only one tap; even if you use them for every tap, you still need some form of room heating. And it's a very expensive tap.
Not all taps are in homes, or even heated buildings, thobut. And if the room heating's electric (storage heaters, heat pump, whatever), a couple of expensive taps might be a reasonable alternative to an electrically heated hot water tank, if only on space grounds.
The taps in the link are boiling and/or chilled and/or sparkling (!) water dispensersSparkling water? Pah! I want a tap for champagne!
The taps in the link are boiling and/or chilled and/or sparkling (!) water dispensers that would be fitted in addition to a normal tap. A few of them are in mixer tap format for warm water.We stayed in a B&B in Belgium earlier this year which had such a device in the communal kitchen - I was tempted to rush home and refit the entire kitchen around such an installation. Magic!
Finally bitten the wossname and ordered a new wireless thermostat & receiver gadget so as to replace the ancient, paint-sodden and stupidly-placed one. Expect pleas of the “HELP! Which wire connects to what terminal?” variety in due course..
Finally bitten the wossname and ordered a new wireless thermostat & receiver gadget so as to replace the ancient, paint-sodden and stupidly-placed one. Expect pleas of the “HELP! Which wire connects to what terminal?” variety in due course..
Thats what’s put me off. If I could put the receiver on the wall in place of the (2 wire) thermostat and have a wandering head unit, all good. Having to wire the receiver into the boiler less so. Plus they all seem to need the internet, and I’ve no interest in remotely accessing the heating. It can wait until the next boiler replacement, and I’ll make do with a more flexibly programmable one on the wall - after all we only have a room and kitchen downstairs!
I'm fairly sure the Hive thermostat doesn't use the internet to do its day-to-day thing of keeping a steady temperature. It has its own wireless protocol. Obviously it needs the internet for overriding the programme when you're not physically there, pressing the buttons on it.
That's an excellent point. Got me wondering where all the "cloud" servers are too.
That's an excellent point. Got me wondering where all the "cloud" servers are too.My experience of cloud-based applications is that they're all slow and shit, so my guess is that the servers are on Mars.
How much of that is the collapse / outsourcing of BRITISH industry, thobut? It's not really an efficiency win if you're having the widgets made in China with coal power.Chart 5.1 in DUKES (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64c23a300c8b960013d1b05e/DUKES_2023_Chapter_5.pdf) refers but I'm not persuading the magical cloud service to share a screen shot embeddably. UK Electricity consumption is down 19% since 2010 for both industrial and domestic sectors, and only 17% in the commercial sector. So there's some evidence of deindustrialisation but it's not the biggest thing going on.
There are also legal considerations (eg. data protection, copyright, etc), to say nothing of tax breaks, which will affect where international organisations choose to put their infrastructure. I believe Ireland is disproportionately popular on this basis, to the point where electricity supply is becoming an issue.Yes, we absolutely cannot even consider data being hosted outwith the UK, Ireland was previously allowed but so was Belgium etc. Cos Breshit.
That's an excellent point. Got me wondering where all the "cloud" servers are too.
There are 517 datacentres in the UK. People get grumpy if a page doesn't load within a fraction of a second, so locating a DC further away is suboptimal. Thus DC's need to be close to people.
This represents about 10% of all the world's DC's
Estimated global data centre electricity consumption in 2022 was 240-340 TWh1, or around 1-1.3% of global final electricity demand. This excludes energy used for cryptocurrency mining, which was estimated to be around 110 TWh in 2022, accounting for 0.4% of annual global electricity demand.Linky https://www.iea.org/energy-system/buildings/data-centres-and-data-transmission-networks (https://www.iea.org/energy-system/buildings/data-centres-and-data-transmission-networks)
The upshot of the article is if we have
- 32A car charger (7.3kW)
- running 4.5 hours a day 5 days a week
- 10m installed cable length
- 35p per kWh electricity cost
Then for these cable sizes the cost per year in energy lost in the cable is:
- 4mm² - £37.18
- 6mm² - £24.84
- 10mm² - £14.76
Our oil tank is nearly empty.
Came back from christmas to a low oil tank. MrsC is in charge of ordering, but put it off for a few days. Ordered - they normally deliver within 2-3 days, this time they said within a fortnight . . .
So we are on week 2 of trying to keep oil use down. Thermostat at 10C overnight, 14 mornings and up to 15.5 evening.
Making good use of the peat stove in the evening, so we have a toasty warm room to sit in.
I'm finding fairly rapid adaption, quite comfortable working in a 15-16C room with a T shirt and jumper. MrsC making use of a fan heater in whatever room she is sat.
Honestly, if it were just me, I'd probably stick to these temperature settings.
How much would the insulation have saved if you'd kept a gas boiler, though? And what is the payback period after subtracting the insulation benefits?
My guess is (a) most of the savings and therefore (b) it never pays back.
Of course, there are other excellent reasons to fit a heat pump, but economics aren't one of them. Unless gas gets a lot more expensive relative to anbaric fluid.
How much would the insulation have saved if you'd kept a gas boiler, though? And what is the payback period after subtracting the insulation benefits?We haven't attempted to break it out. The entire heating system had to be replaced anyway -- the whole house had to be gutted -- so the counterfactual of installing a new boiler into the otherwise heat-pump ready building would be absurd.
My guess is (a) most of the savings and therefore (b) it never pays back.
Of course, there are other excellent reasons to fit a heat pump, but economics aren't one of them. Unless gas gets a lot more expensive relative to anbaric fluid.
Just to report, before winter ends, that after our first six weeks living with a heat pump we are wonderfully warm and snug, the hot water is hot, and our all-in COP is above 4.5. So we are saving money daily relative to a gas boiler, even before covering a third of the electricity with solar PV.
Admittedly the house is now so well insulated and draughtproofed that we stay entirely ignorant of the temperature outside until we open a door -- the windows never need to open because of the MVHR -- so it's not a very hard test of the ASHP.
We started the project in the brief window between Putin and Truss when energy was expensive enough, and mortgages cheap enough, that it would cover its costs. Alas that didn't last, though in the long run we are happy to bet on gas getting pricier. Still, we're saving a huge amount of energy.
We had a chap come to look at our boiler a couple of weeks ago. I had a natter to him as he worked and he reckoned that under current rules & regs we couldn't have an air-source heat pump fitted because we are within 3 miles of the sea and they are very susceptible to damage from salty air.
Our ASHP certainly haven't stood up to the weather in the N. Pennines.
Factor in huge maintenance costs when they go wrong, and nobody wants to service them because they are making too much money with new installations.
Also factor in the replacement costs in 10 years time, on which there will not be a subsidy.
Expensive lesson - we will not be early adopters for any future technology.
We had a chap come to look at our boiler a couple of weeks ago. I had a natter to him as he worked and he reckoned that under current rules & regs we couldn't have an air-source heat pump fitted because we are within 3 miles of the sea and they are very susceptible to damage from salty air.
I haven't bothered to check that but it sounds to be like a load of bolleaux.
Do you know what it is that's caused the problems?
QuoteDo you know what it is that's caused the problems?
But new units are not backward compatible with our plumbing and control systems, so the whole lot will need ripping out and replacing.
Of course, no subsidy for replacements....
We had a chap come to look at our boiler a couple of weeks ago. I had a natter to him as he worked and he reckoned that under current rules & regs we couldn't have an air-source heat pump fitted because we are within 3 miles of the sea and they are very susceptible to damage from salty air.
I haven't bothered to check that but it sounds to be like a load of bolleaux.
Unfortunately imho Mitsubishi have sold all their early adopters right down the river
QuoteUnfortunately imho Mitsubishi have sold all their early adopters right down the river
Sadly I have to agree.
No-one mentioned the life span of the units -we assumed it would be a lot more than 10 years.
It was a costly mistake that has caused us grief for ten years of what should have been a comfortable retirement.
I have no confidence that all the ASHP now being installed will not have similar problems in the future.
QuoteUnfortunately imho Mitsubishi have sold all their early adopters right down the river
Sadly I have to agree.
No-one mentioned the life span of the units -we assumed it would be a lot more than 10 years.
It was a costly mistake that has caused us grief for ten years of what should have been a comfortable retirement.
I have no confidence that all the ASHP now being installed will not have similar problems in the future.
In comparison, a quick search of "domestic gas boiler lifespan" suggests modern domestic gas boilers are at best 10-15 year lifespan. Given the significant electronics on board, mean time to first failure is usually significantly lower. Notwithstanding the above, I agree that an ASHP is potentially a more complex beast, although other geographic markets seem to manage issues better - due largely I suspect to a far more skilled workforce.
I installed a wood pellet boiler with support from the RHI in 2013. It's still going strong(ish) after 10 years, and likely to last another 10. However, the annual maintenance costs are horrific, just for the regular service without any breakdowns. And the flue is rotting out, so that's not a decent alternative to gas either! At the time, heat pumps just weren't sophisticated enough, but if I was replacing it tomorrow I'd almost certainly go for a heat pump rather than revert to fossil fuels.
new units are not backward compatible with our plumbing and control systems, so the whole lot will need ripping out and replacing.
The control units - why the heck aren't these ASHP just working off a 'call for heat/call for hot water'?It's not like a gas burner where either the flame is lit or it isn't, though: as its efficiency is so closely tied to the temperature difference it creates, the control needs to modulate the system output to match heat demand without cycling on and off, rather than just throwing heat into the pipes. New installations use weather compensation, so the output is set by an outdoor thermometer which estimates the requirement from a preprogrammed heat curve. And the unit has at least two pumps to coordinate, for the refrigerant and the primary water circuit. The whole setup is unavoidably fiddly.
The control units - why the heck aren't these ASHP just working off a 'call for heat/call for hot water'?It's not like a gas burner where either the flame is lit or it isn't, though: as its efficiency is so closely tied to the temperature difference it creates, the control needs to modulate the system output to match heat demand without cycling on and off, rather than just throwing heat into the pipes. New installations use weather compensation, so the output is set by an outdoor thermometer which estimates the requirement from a preprogrammed heat curve. And the unit has at least two pumps to coordinate, for the refrigerant and the primary water circuit. The whole setup is unavoidably fiddly.
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My point is that Flite shouldn't need the house rewiring to replace the ASHP part. Maybe Mitsubishi decided to not use standard
Ten years from a ASHP doesn't feel totally unreasonable if it's 7k, that's 58 quid a month. Stick that in a savings account each month, and after ten years you have the money anyway.