Yet Another Cycling Forum

Off Topic => The Pub => Topic started by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 October, 2021, 05:53:12 pm

Title: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 October, 2021, 05:53:12 pm
Video about a bloke in Oregon who lives in a small cart pulled by sheep, whose milk provide half his food, moving on every few days and grazing wherever they can. His cart is full of gadgets. Crazy but good.
https://youtu.be/U54HRmglYEA
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: barakta on 12 October, 2021, 08:13:38 pm
Video about a bloke in Oregon who lives in a small cart pulled by sheep, whose milk provide half his food, moving on every few days and grazing wherever they can. His cart is full of gadgets. Crazy but good.
https://youtu.be/U54HRmglYEA

Thanks for sharing, that was an interesting watch.

It made me think about people I've known to want to "live off the land" but don't have the mental stability, social and practical skills to do this effectively. This Aaron guy clearly knows lots of things, so he's willing to get educated on practicalities and has the social skills to build up networks of people to help him and who he can help.

I wouldn't find living like that easy but I have great respect for the people who can and appreciate him sharing his little tips and tricks. 
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 October, 2021, 08:35:23 pm
He struck me as the type of person who would probably have difficulty living in conventional society due to social/mental/psychological reasons but whereas many like that would drop out or more likely fall out into drugs, crime, violence, and many ways of harming themselves and others either deliberately or accidentally, he's managed to do it a way which benefits not only him but those he meets. You probably need to be fairly lucky with the climate though, as well as general health.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 October, 2021, 08:39:50 pm
I wouldn't like to live that way, but youtube's radicalisation algorithm is (today) trying to turn me into an off-grid self-sufficient person. I might quite enjoy living like this guy, who has built his own house, generates all his own electricity and grows a lot of his own food (with wife/partner):
https://youtu.be/lSt96KFFHxA

Thing is though, he emphasises how little all the buildings cost, but he must have had some money to start with to buy the smallholding.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: quixoticgeek on 12 October, 2021, 08:51:38 pm

There's a lot of the whole self sufficient homesteading type things. John Seymour wrote a book about it which inspired a certain popular Sitcom (The good life), as well as kick started a publishing company (Dorling Kingsley) AFAIK.

In recent years it's been picked up a bit by what is oft referred to as cottagecore. Many a person craving for dropping out of society to live on their plot of land in a nice cottage with their partner, to grow their own veg, to have a sheep and a cow, and breed horses. And ya know what. HOLY FUCK is there some shit to unravel in how the message comes across to us all.

https://twitter.com/SarahTaber_bww/status/1443225915073437698

This twitter thread is long, and it's one hell of a ride. I highly recommend it. As someone who owns more than one of John Seymour's books. And as someone who dreams of a cottage with a garden. It's one hell of an eye opener.

The Sheep thing is added to my to watch list.

J
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 October, 2021, 09:05:47 pm
Re: The Good Life, I did think "Tom and Barbara eat your hearts out!" But I seem to remember that in the end Tom went back to the draftsman's office... Anyway, it was a funny show.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: andrewc on 12 October, 2021, 09:16:44 pm
(Goes into other room to check bookshelves).   Yes , I've got Seymour's book as well.    Sounds bloody hard work & definitely not practical in a 4th floor flat.  I tend to kill every plant I buy or grow as well.  Can't even keep stuff like a pot of Basil healthy  :(
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: quixoticgeek on 12 October, 2021, 09:19:07 pm
(Goes into other room to check bookshelves).   Yes , I've got Seymour's book as well.    Sounds bloody hard work & definitely not practical in a 4th floor flat.  I tend to kill every plant I buy or grow as well.  Can't even keep stuff like a pot of Basil healthy  :(

I am self sufficient in salad and I grow that on my window sill... that probably says more about how little salad I eat...

J
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: quixoticgeek on 12 October, 2021, 09:54:16 pm


I've watched it now.

And I'm angry. Not because of what he's doing or anything like that. But because the video is approaching 1M views. With people sharing on social media about how awesome it is etc...

And yet. At the same time. The Gypsy/Roma/Traveller community is being persecuted in almost every nation. Our own government is passing legislation to marginalise them further and to try to make their way of life untenable. If this guy was in the UK he would have been arrested repeatedly, and condemned by our home secretary.

Yeah, it's cute that a guy has a caravan and some sheep and moves from place to place. But we can't enjoy that video and ignore the persecution of the GRT community.

J
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 October, 2021, 10:06:17 pm
I don't think there are such communities in the USA though, at least not as a recognisable ethnic group. But your comment might be all the more relevant because of that. I reckon the biggest targets of the UK's currently proposed legislation are not Traveller communities but people who can't afford the rent. They probably constitute the largest number of vehicle dwellers already, at least in urban areas. We're told this guy became "voluntarily homeless" but I wonder if there weren't similar causes?
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 12 October, 2021, 10:11:46 pm
He struck me as the type of person who would probably have difficulty living in conventional society due to social/mental/psychological reasons but whereas many like that would drop out or more likely fall out into drugs, crime, violence, and many ways of harming themselves and others either deliberately or accidentally,

I can’t see anything that shows he has social, mental or psychological issues that would make it difficult for him to live in conventional society.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 13 October, 2021, 09:32:09 am
Re: The Good Life, I did think "Tom and Barbara eat your hearts out!" But I seem to remember that in the end Tom went back to the draftsman's office... Anyway, it was a funny show.
'the good life' got that bit right. They struggled for money, and Tom had to periodically drop back into 'normal 9-5' to get by.

My pet peeve of 'drop out and travel' people is that many of them utterly ignore that they are making use of the benefits of 'social enterprise' in the form of roads, utilities, etc. They ignore that much of what they depend on is paid by taxation and don't contribute themselves.

(This is not an attack on the Roma or Travelling community, but the 'new age traveller' types). I've had a few NaTs as friends or acquaintances, and only one of them recognised the value of taxation as a contribution to society. The rest were a resentful bunch who did everything they could to avoid contributing to society at large, often decrying the benefits of anarchy (some, ironically, claiming benefits).

We get a veg box from a family over the hill. Mum, daughter and son. He worked as a landscape gardener until he had enough money to buy a croft. Mum bought the house. They get by eating what they grow and selling veg to the community. Basically traditional small scale farming. They work damn hard.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 October, 2021, 09:03:50 am
My pet peeve of 'drop out and travel' people is that many of them utterly ignore that they are making use of the benefits of 'social enterprise' in the form of roads, utilities, etc. They ignore that much of what they depend on is paid by taxation and don't contribute themselves.

(This is not an attack on the Roma or Travelling community, but the 'new age traveller' types).
I thought it was going to be about "year out before (or in the middle of) uni" types!
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Regulator on 14 October, 2021, 09:28:06 am
Re: The Good Life, I did think "Tom and Barbara eat your hearts out!" But I seem to remember that in the end Tom went back to the draftsman's office... Anyway, it was a funny show.
'the good life' got that bit right. They struggled for money, and Tom had to periodically drop back into 'normal 9-5' to get by.

My pet peeve of 'drop out and travel' people is that many of them utterly ignore that they are making use of the benefits of 'social enterprise' in the form of roads, utilities, etc. They ignore that much of what they depend on is paid by taxation and don't contribute themselves.

(This is not an attack on the Roma or Travelling community, but the 'new age traveller' types). I've had a few NaTs as friends or acquaintances, and only one of them recognised the value of taxation as a contribution to society. The rest were a resentful bunch who did everything they could to avoid contributing to society at large, often decrying the benefits of anarchy (some, ironically, claiming benefits).

We get a veg box from a family over the hill. Mum, daughter and son. He worked as a landscape gardener until he had enough money to buy a croft. Mum bought the house. They get by eating what they grow and selling veg to the community. Basically traditional small scale farming. They work damn hard.

Is that actually true?   Whilst they may not pay income tax or council tax, they'll still be paying other taxes (e.g. VAT, which in 2019/20 was 16.2% of all tax receipts in the UK) or - in the case of this chap in the US - local state taxes.  Arguably, they are also likely to be taking up less/fewer of those 'social enterprise' funded services/utilities.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 October, 2021, 09:44:39 am
Is that actually true?   Whilst they may not pay income tax or council tax, they'll still be paying other taxes (e.g. VAT, which in 2019/20 was 16.2% of all tax receipts in the UK) or - in the case of this chap in the US - local state taxes.  Arguably, they are also likely to be taking up less/fewer of those 'social enterprise' funded services/utilities.

Depends what you buy. In the UK many foods that are considered essentials are zero rated for VAT. e.g. Bread, Milk, Butter. So it is possible to do an entire food shop without paying any VAT. Same if you buy a printed book. It is possible to live in the UK without paying any Tax in any form, but to do that you need to have a very low income, eat very specific stuff, and not buy adult clothes. But if you were actively trying to do it, it would take quite a bit of effort to track everything to make sure you don't trip up.

J
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 October, 2021, 10:05:44 am
Re: The Good Life, I did think "Tom and Barbara eat your hearts out!" But I seem to remember that in the end Tom went back to the draftsman's office... Anyway, it was a funny show.
'the good life' got that bit right. They struggled for money, and Tom had to periodically drop back into 'normal 9-5' to get by.

My pet peeve of 'drop out and travel' people is that many of them utterly ignore that they are making use of the benefits of 'social enterprise' in the form of roads, utilities, etc. They ignore that much of what they depend on is paid by taxation and don't contribute themselves.

(This is not an attack on the Roma or Travelling community, but the 'new age traveller' types). I've had a few NaTs as friends or acquaintances, and only one of them recognised the value of taxation as a contribution to society. The rest were a resentful bunch who did everything they could to avoid contributing to society at large, often decrying the benefits of anarchy (some, ironically, claiming benefits).

We get a veg box from a family over the hill. Mum, daughter and son. He worked as a landscape gardener until he had enough money to buy a croft. Mum bought the house. They get by eating what they grow and selling veg to the community. Basically traditional small scale farming. They work damn hard.

Is that actually true?   Whilst they may not pay income tax or council tax, they'll still be paying other taxes (e.g. VAT, which in 2019/20 was 16.2% of all tax receipts in the UK) or - in the case of this chap in the US - local state taxes.  Arguably, they are also likely to be taking up less/fewer of those 'social enterprise' funded services/utilities.

No sales tax in Oregon.  Funny place.  They still have petril pump attendants.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 October, 2021, 10:08:00 am


No sales tax in Oregon.  Funny place.  They still have petril pump attendants.

Not any more. Rules changed a year or so ago.

J
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 October, 2021, 10:14:41 am


No sales tax in Oregon.  Funny place.  They still have petril pump attendants.

Not any more. Rules changed a year or so ago.

J

Self-service has permitted in low-population counties post-2018 but the statewide thing is apparently a “temporary” response to these plague-ridden times.  They were still very much in evidence in 2018 in Klamath Falls, where the attendant was confuzzled by his petril pump's inability to interrogate my credit card.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 14 October, 2021, 11:00:40 am
Re: The Good Life, I did think "Tom and Barbara eat your hearts out!" But I seem to remember that in the end Tom went back to the draftsman's office... Anyway, it was a funny show.
'the good life' got that bit right. They struggled for money, and Tom had to periodically drop back into 'normal 9-5' to get by.

My pet peeve of 'drop out and travel' people is that many of them utterly ignore that they are making use of the benefits of 'social enterprise' in the form of roads, utilities, etc. They ignore that much of what they depend on is paid by taxation and don't contribute themselves.

(This is not an attack on the Roma or Travelling community, but the 'new age traveller' types). I've had a few NaTs as friends or acquaintances, and only one of them recognised the value of taxation as a contribution to society. The rest were a resentful bunch who did everything they could to avoid contributing to society at large, often decrying the benefits of anarchy (some, ironically, claiming benefits).

We get a veg box from a family over the hill. Mum, daughter and son. He worked as a landscape gardener until he had enough money to buy a croft. Mum bought the house. They get by eating what they grow and selling veg to the community. Basically traditional small scale farming. They work damn hard.

Is that actually true?   Whilst they may not pay income tax or council tax, they'll still be paying other taxes (e.g. VAT, which in 2019/20 was 16.2% of all tax receipts in the UK) or - in the case of this chap in the US - local state taxes.  Arguably, they are also likely to be taking up less/fewer of those 'social enterprise' funded services/utilities.

For the ones I knew personally, they went to great lengths to avoid paying:
Council tax
Income tax (including NI)
Water and sewage rates (by getting water from a sympathetic householder)
Licences (many of them were boat-dwellers)
Fuel tax (using red diesel instead for everything)
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 October, 2021, 11:38:06 am
But was that motivated by anarchist opposition to the existence of the state, or possibly just to the current UK state, or simply a desire to spend less money?
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 14 October, 2021, 11:58:12 am
But was that motivated by anarchist opposition to the existence of the state, or possibly just to the current UK state, or simply a desire to spend less money?

I can't say what their personal motivations were, just what I observed.

Many propounded anarchist beliefs (but as stated, they claimed benefits).

My belief on why they behaved like this?
Some didn't like working much and resented other people having things that they personally couldn't afford. They'd rather smoke spliffs and bitch about oppression.
Some had health issues that made it difficult to work and were living on the margins, 'on the pan crack'.
Some harboured a deep-held resentment against 'the man' and pushed back against anything that looked like conformance. There is some crossover between groups.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: JennyB on 14 October, 2021, 02:02:03 pm

There's a lot of the whole self sufficient homesteading type things. John Seymour wrote a book about it which inspired a certain popular Sitcom (The good life), as well as kick started a publishing company (Dorling Kingsley) AFAIK.


Didn't know that about DK and John Seymour. I've always seen Seymour as a sort of old Colonial type, and a bit out of place among his readership. Back in the day my interest leaned more to EF Schumacher and Ivan Illich. DK books all have a similar feel to them: beautifully put together and seemingly comprehensive, but never quite as helpful or inspiring as you hope they would be.
 
Quote
In recent years it's been picked up a bit by what is oft referred to as cottagecore. Many a person craving for dropping out of society to live on their plot of land in a nice cottage with their partner, to grow their own veg, to have a sheep and a cow, and breed horses. And ya know what. HOLY FUCK is there some shit to unravel in how the message comes across to us all.

https://twitter.com/SarahTaber_bww/status/1443225915073437698 (https://twitter.com/SarahTaber_bww/status/1443225915073437698)

This twitter thread is long, and it's one hell of a ride. I highly recommend it. As someone who owns more than one of John Seymour's books. And as someone who dreams of a cottage with a garden. It's one hell of an eye opener.


It is indeed, and it ties in with a lot of what I've been thinking lately. Why are we tempted by such visions of self-reliant ingenuity? What is the difference between working all the hours God sends to provide for ourselves on a smallholding and earning a wage doing something totally unrelated? Why does capital increasingly seek to remove workers control of the means of production? Why does Sheep Guy need so many side hustles? Why is there so little we can do to help our neighbours, and they us?
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 October, 2021, 02:12:08 pm
Had a quick look at that twitter thread and it seems to be about Mormon links to instagram influencers???
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 14 October, 2021, 03:45:54 pm
The area of the twitter thread seems to be settlement of midwest USA. She's expanded that event to all of USA society.

A bit of a reach.

There are areas of USA and canada where the settlement pattern was totally different. Think of all the scots who ended up there because of the clearances. They didn't 'buy land off land barons' and spread out.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: barakta on 14 October, 2021, 05:22:05 pm
I hadn't thought of the Gypsy Traveller Roma comparison with Aaron, but that is a very good point. In the UK we would absolutely treat someone like him with suspicion in many places although I can imagine in more rural areas someone might become well enough known and trusted to get by.

It's not the way I'd want to live but I thought it interesting that he was functional with it. I have more than one family member who has wanted to live a bit like Aaron does, but simply don't have the mental stability, organisation or other skills to make it anything other than a painful disaster.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 October, 2021, 05:54:10 pm
He struck me as the type of person who would probably have difficulty living in conventional society due to social/mental/psychological reasons but whereas many like that would drop out or more likely fall out into drugs, crime, violence, and many ways of harming themselves and others either deliberately or accidentally,

I can’t see anything that shows he has social, mental or psychological issues that would make it difficult for him to live in conventional society.
The fact that he has chosen to opt out of it suggests he was dissatisfied with it.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 October, 2021, 06:26:05 pm
But was that motivated by anarchist opposition to the existence of the state, or possibly just to the current UK state, or simply a desire to spend less money?

Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 October, 2021, 07:12:30 pm

Watching the Guerilla grazing video, made me think of this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zO3xUg157c

When I watched this video it just made me angry. Sure he's got 47 items. Because at that point someone who has more than 47 has let him live in their glamping shelter thingy for free. He's got no bank account, and I'm guessing no health insurance. So wtf will happen when he gets ill/injured?

Something Helen Czerski said comes to mind at this point

"Each of us has three life support systems: We have a body, a planet, and a civilization. Our civilization is keeping us alive now in just the same way that the other two do. We are absolutely dependent on it. "

And given we are dependant upon it. We really should do our part to keep it functioning.

J
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 October, 2021, 07:26:03 pm
He explicitly says he is dependent on other people. He also says that this is an experiment for him. Maybe it won't last very long.

Obviously he's a Gandhian or thinks he is, which in turn reminds me of a line from a Stanley Brinks song: I thought that I was a Bohemian already and had nothing to learn from anybody.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Wowbagger on 14 October, 2021, 08:32:28 pm
Re: The Good Life, I did think "Tom and Barbara eat your hearts out!" But I seem to remember that in the end Tom went back to the draftsman's office... Anyway, it was a funny show.
'the good life' got that bit right. They struggled for money, and Tom had to periodically drop back into 'normal 9-5' to get by.

My pet peeve of 'drop out and travel' people is that many of them utterly ignore that they are making use of the benefits of 'social enterprise' in the form of roads, utilities, etc. They ignore that much of what they depend on is paid by taxation and don't contribute themselves.

(This is not an attack on the Roma or Travelling community, but the 'new age traveller' types). I've had a few NaTs as friends or acquaintances, and only one of them recognised the value of taxation as a contribution to society. The rest were a resentful bunch who did everything they could to avoid contributing to society at large, often decrying the benefits of anarchy (some, ironically, claiming benefits).

We get a veg box from a family over the hill. Mum, daughter and son. He worked as a landscape gardener until he had enough money to buy a croft. Mum bought the house. They get by eating what they grow and selling veg to the community. Basically traditional small scale farming. They work damn hard.

A bit like Amazon, Apple, Starbucks, Vodaphone...
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: nobby on 15 October, 2021, 04:47:21 am
What is the difference between working all the hours God sends to provide for ourselves on a smallholding and earning a wage doing something totally unrelated?
Isn't the difference about six to eight hours leisure time a day for five days a week and a couple of days free of paid work and a pension to support you in your declining years?
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: nobby on 15 October, 2021, 07:47:31 am

Something Helen Czerski said comes to mind at this point
"Each of us has three life support systems: We have a body, a planet, and a civilization. Our civilization is keeping us alive now in just the same way that the other two do. We are absolutely dependent on it. "

And given we are dependant upon it. We really should do our part to keep it functioning.

J
... very true and how do the Roma/Traveller/Gypsy community do that?
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 15 October, 2021, 08:33:54 am
Re: The Good Life, I did think "Tom and Barbara eat your hearts out!" But I seem to remember that in the end Tom went back to the draftsman's office... Anyway, it was a funny show.
'the good life' got that bit right. They struggled for money, and Tom had to periodically drop back into 'normal 9-5' to get by.

My pet peeve of 'drop out and travel' people is that many of them utterly ignore that they are making use of the benefits of 'social enterprise' in the form of roads, utilities, etc. They ignore that much of what they depend on is paid by taxation and don't contribute themselves.

(This is not an attack on the Roma or Travelling community, but the 'new age traveller' types). I've had a few NaTs as friends or acquaintances, and only one of them recognised the value of taxation as a contribution to society. The rest were a resentful bunch who did everything they could to avoid contributing to society at large, often decrying the benefits of anarchy (some, ironically, claiming benefits).

We get a veg box from a family over the hill. Mum, daughter and son. He worked as a landscape gardener until he had enough money to buy a croft. Mum bought the house. They get by eating what they grow and selling veg to the community. Basically traditional small scale farming. They work damn hard.

A bit like Amazon, Apple, Starbucks, Vodaphone...
You missed off google and all the fossil fuel companies.

Yes, absolutely.

I also agree with Quixoticgeek. The 'minimalist' people are very convenient about what they count (he seems to ignore the chair he is sat on, the table, glass, bed, building).
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Regulator on 15 October, 2021, 08:48:26 am

Something Helen Czerski said comes to mind at this point
"Each of us has three life support systems: We have a body, a planet, and a civilization. Our civilization is keeping us alive now in just the same way that the other two do. We are absolutely dependent on it. "

And given we are dependant upon it. We really should do our part to keep it functioning.

J
... very true and how do the Roma/Traveller/Gypsy community do that?


Ah - I knew we'd see the old prejudices rear their head on this thread...
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: quixoticgeek on 15 October, 2021, 09:47:23 am
... very true and how do the Roma/Traveller/Gypsy community do that?

The same way the rest of us do. They pay taxes, and they vote. And if asked, they do Jury Duty.

J
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: barakta on 15 October, 2021, 12:59:27 pm
I am much less bothered by the Aarons of this world "not paying taxes" and living a life outside the traditional economy than I am about mega-corporations which don't pay anywhere near enough tax if any at all, who also rely on infrastructure and in some cases promise to pay for infra to allow projects, then don't pay and the local authority can't afford to sue them, then the council has to build AND maintain infrastructure that is solely for the benefit of BigCO e.g. roads that just go to their megastore or drive-thru...

Aaron may not pay taxes, but it sounds like he does good in his communities as a whole. He clears up areas of public land which might otherwise be neglected (perhaps cos the authority that owns it can't afford or can't be arsed to maintain it). The chances are Aaron contributes to public infra in a more direct way by looking after it...

The idea that everyone should EARN to contribute is very capitalist. We forget the people who may not have traditional jobs and lives, but often do a great deal for the community. I am thinking of a family friend who hasn't worked since the 70s before she had children, and when she became widowed in the mid 80s it wasn't financially sensible for her to work (she'd have lost a range of husband's pensions). She hasn't earned and paid tax bar VAT and car taxes, but she quietly does lots of good things for other people. She often helps elders in her faith community, drives them to hospital appointments, helps keep the local nature reserve tidy and so on... IF she was working she wouldn't be able to do the community stuff she does. She's also very astute, and it was thanks to her my mum got more clue on racism as this friend introduced my mum to Reni Eddo-Lodge's race book by going to a talk by Reni about the book and stuff...

Not everything has a financial price tag on it and that is OK.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 15 October, 2021, 01:17:29 pm
People in Gypsy or other traditional Traveller communities probably interact with Settled communities in different ways from Aarons and Rob Greenfields, in that they (Gypsies etc) have their own cultures/communities, rather than being off-shoots from mainstream ones.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 15 October, 2021, 01:25:31 pm

Watching the Guerilla grazing video, made me think of this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zO3xUg157c

When I watched this video it just made me angry. Sure he's got 47 items. Because at that point someone who has more than 47 has let him live in their glamping shelter thingy for free. He's got no bank account, and I'm guessing no health insurance. So wtf will happen when he gets ill/injured?

Something Helen Czerski said comes to mind at this point

"Each of us has three life support systems: We have a body, a planet, and a civilization. Our civilization is keeping us alive now in just the same way that the other two do. We are absolutely dependent on it. "

And given we are dependant upon it. We really should do our part to keep it functioning.

J
He probably addresses that in this one of his several other videos: https://youtu.be/OvL-Z0gl6ig
...but I couldn't be bothered to watch it, as I'm afraid I find his video manner slightly irritating.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: nobby on 15 October, 2021, 03:48:03 pm
... very true and how do the Roma/Traveller/Gypsy community do that?

The same way the rest of us do. They pay taxes, and they vote. And if asked, they do Jury Duty.

J
Well I never knew that.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: quixoticgeek on 15 October, 2021, 09:57:37 pm
Well I never knew that.

If you're a resident in the UK, you have to pay taxes if you earn enough to do so. As well as the taxes and duties involved in purchasing stuff (fuel, vat, etc...).

If you are a citizen of the UK you can vote.

If you are a citizen of the UK you can be required to do Jury duty.

It doesn't matter if you live in a mansion, or a caravan. You are still a resident and/or citizen.

J
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: ian on 15 October, 2021, 09:58:49 pm
To be fair though, they have to find you first.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 15 October, 2021, 10:03:53 pm
You have to be on the electoral register to be eligible for jury service, which you probably won't be if you don't have a static address. But that's just one part of "keeping society functioning" and a part that many equivalent societies function well without.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 15 October, 2021, 10:10:11 pm
He struck me as the type of person who would probably have difficulty living in conventional society due to social/mental/psychological reasons but whereas many like that would drop out or more likely fall out into drugs, crime, violence, and many ways of harming themselves and others either deliberately or accidentally,

I can’t see anything that shows he has social, mental or psychological issues that would make it difficult for him to live in conventional society.
The fact that he has chosen to opt out of it suggests he was dissatisfied with it.

Yes, but choosing to opt out of it doesn’t mean he has social, mental or psychological issues. He just wants to live in a different way.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 16 October, 2021, 12:00:41 pm
Yeah. I think "wanting to live in a different way" counts as a "social reason", which was the phrase I used, not issue.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: giropaul on 16 October, 2021, 01:17:29 pm
Back to guerilla grazing - back in the late 1970s when I moved to where I am now, there was a woman who had a very small farm, but increased her grazing by putting her small herd on the roadsides around the area. She was at one end, her dog at the other. Traditionally it was called the “ long acre”, and was common in Jersey I believe.
The woman was always cheery, would pass the time of day and was well thought of locally. I don’t believe she had any electricity in her basic farmhouse, and she milked by hand. I think she reared calves on the milk - I don’t think that she would have got a license to sell milk.
I doubt she would have thought of herself as “ alternative “, certainly not guerilla. She just did what her parents had done and ignored most of the “ modern” world.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 November, 2021, 08:15:08 pm
Apparently the Good Life is the model for today's net zero strategy.
Quote
What the government’s net-zero strategy is intended to achieve, it may be argued, is to encourage us to embrace a simpler lifestyle that would have been regarded as standard in the 1970s. Energy resilience and self sufficiency remains an aspiration.

Though there are many obstacles to living like the Goods, especially in urban areas, there’s much we can do to emulate their example. It’s critical we reduce our carbon footprint, cut consumption and engage in activities such as recycling and reuse. And use of fossil fuels – which has almost trebled since 1970 – must be reversed.

The future contemplated by the Goods was one that was better than in their youth. For many Gen Zs, the environmental future looks less optimistic . If those engaged in protest to save the planet could recognise anything from the Good’s story, it’s that those advocating radically different lifestyles are rarely welcomed. As Gen Z now know, environmental challenges they need to confront are much starker.
https://theconversation.com/inspiration-from-the-1970s-for-todays-young-environmentalists-170481
I'm not convinced this is the aim (apart from any practical problems, it would mean not buying stuff, leading to economic problems).
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 November, 2021, 08:30:36 pm
While most of the comments say something along the lines of
Quote
In my recollection it was more to do with being short of cash rather than being eco aware.

one says
Quote
However, what few of us realise is that we live in repair heaven.  My parents generation couldn’t repair stuff,  which is one reason there were so many repair shops.  In the 50s and 60s if something broke you threw it away.  I can remember when the concept of DIY first appeared.  We have now had 50 years when people knew enough and had the tools and the internet to have manage their own repairs.  We can buy spare parts overnight, where they had to rely on an expensive repair shop. 
which seems to run interestingly counter to common perceptions.
Title: Re: Guerilla grazing: nomadic dairy sheep farmer
Post by: Mr Larrington on 02 November, 2021, 01:01:32 am
Especially if you’re a farmer with a John Deere tractor. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Deere#Use_of_the_Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act_to_prevent_user_repairs)