Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)

[rogerzilla]

In the 80s, even crappy 2-car DMUs had a parcels area.  They started to disappear when BR managed to jettison its common carrier status.

[bhoot]

.... coat the hook with some rubber-type padding so it doesn't scratch my expensive rims to **** with 6 hours of metal vibrating against metal (there isn't room on the existing hooks to use your own padding)

I usually (when I remember) carry a short section of old inner tube for putting over the hooks. It's not super effective but better than no padding at all. Has been deployed on sleeper trains in the before days.

[toontra]

.... coat the hook with some rubber-type padding so it doesn't scratch my expensive rims to **** with 6 hours of metal vibrating against metal (there isn't room on the existing hooks to use your own padding)

I usually (when I remember) carry a short section of old inner tube for putting over the hooks. It's not super effective but better than no padding at all. Has been deployed on sleeper trains in the before days.

I used to do that on the older trains with hooks, but on these, believe me, there isn't a spare millimetre if you have fat MTB tyres.  Even with road tyres it would be a real struggle due to the hook shape and location.

[neilrj]

.... coat the hook with some rubber-type padding so it doesn't scratch my expensive rims to **** with 6 hours of metal vibrating against metal (there isn't room on the existing hooks to use your own padding)

I usually (when I remember) carry a short section of old inner tube for putting over the hooks. It's not super effective but better than no padding at all. Has been deployed on sleeper trains in the before days.

I used to do that on the older trains with hooks, but on these, believe me, there isn't a spare millimetre if you have fat MTB tyres.  Even with road tyres it would be a real struggle due to the hook shape and location.

Can't you just deflate the tyre to get the inner tube cushion in place, I mean you'll be carrying a pump for emergencies in any case surely?

[toontra]

.... coat the hook with some rubber-type padding so it doesn't scratch my expensive rims to **** with 6 hours of metal vibrating against metal (there isn't room on the existing hooks to use your own padding)

I usually (when I remember) carry a short section of old inner tube for putting over the hooks. It's not super effective but better than no padding at all. Has been deployed on sleeper trains in the before days.

I used to do that on the older trains with hooks, but on these, believe me, there isn't a spare millimetre if you have fat MTB tyres.  Even with road tyres it would be a real struggle due to the hook shape and location.

Can't you just deflate the tyre to get the inner tube cushion in place, I mean you'll be carrying a pump for emergencies in any case surely?

Possibly, just - that doesn't really excuse the terrible design though.  In any case, as I said, even with slimmer tyres it's a real PITA to get the wheel in place and so would trying to fit an inner tube sleeve be.  Difficult to explain how difficult unless you've experienced it.

Yes - personally I carry a pump at all times, but I'm sure there are many that don't.  In any case why the hell should I have to deflate/reflate my tyre every time I get on a train.

I mean, really, it's not as if we're dealing with a legacy product the isn't suitable for today's requirements.  These carriages were designed recently and with a design brief to accommodate bicycles.  Something has gone very badly wrong*

* Unless of course the brief was to make it a difficult as possible to get a bike on the train, in which case they have succeeded.

[Lightning Phil]

Deflating a tyre to a fit bike in bike space? A step too far in a poor setup.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've been told that LNER are making slight modifications to the bike cupboards in their Azumas (which are the same basic train as the 800s). They're going to remove the divider between the two spaces and lower the hooks slightly.

While lower hooks will obviously be a help to most people and most bikes, I wonder if it will be a problem for longer bikes, such as recumbents and cargo bikes? But I expect most of those are too heavy to lift anyway!

And on the subject of weight, the Manual Handling Operations Regulations 1992 give 16kg as a guideline for the maximum an average woman should be expected to lift at work to waist height. It's only a guideline, but then again it's assuming a building not a swaying train, and only to waist height. 16kg is a heavy bike but many are that weight, especially with the popularity of e-bikes now.

[JonBuoy]

I've been told that LNER are making slight modifications to the bike cupboards in their Azumas (which are the same basic train as the 800s). They're going to remove the divider between the two spaces and lower the hooks slightly.

While lower hooks will obviously be a help to most people and most bikes, I wonder if it will be a problem for longer bikes, such as recumbents and cargo bikes? But I expect most of those are too heavy to lift anyway!

And on the subject of weight, the Manual Handling Operations Regulations 1992 give 16kg as a guideline for the maximum an average woman should be expected to lift at work to waist height. It's only a guideline, but then again it's assuming a building not a swaying train, and only to waist height. 16kg is a heavy bike but many are that weight, especially with the popularity of e-bikes now.

The 16kg also assumes that you are doing this lift repeatedly every two minutes.

[rogerzilla]

A touring bike's rear mudguard already scrapes the ground when it's hung by its front wheel, so a lower hook won't help.  There isn't enough headroom.

I maintain that the bike used to design these spaces was a hipster track iron with SWB and those tiny straight bars for nipping between buses.

[Lightning Phil]

Fit a cargo bike in a cupboard with or without the divider? Ha ha ha ha, good luck.

[psyclist]

Fit a cargo bike in a cupboard with or without the divider? Ha ha ha ha, good luck.

Mine would, it splits in two. It would take up both sides of the space though, so booking would be an issue given the 1 bike per person restriction.

Mind you, I have no plans for long distance train travel with it, but will travel up or down my line to Cambridge or London when a suitable cargo bike event happens. That'll be somewhat easier with 2 halves of a cargo bike.

[Kim]

Fit a cargo bike in a cupboard with or without the divider? Ha ha ha ha, good luck.

A surprising number of things fit in the cupboard when it's a mock-up in an industrial unit at Warwick parkway with no other passengers or time constraints.  We got a full-size tandem in there with a bit of wheel removal and diagonal wedging.  You'd never rely on that in the real world.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've been told that LNER are making slight modifications to the bike cupboards in their Azumas (which are the same basic train as the 800s). They're going to remove the divider between the two spaces and lower the hooks slightly.

While lower hooks will obviously be a help to most people and most bikes, I wonder if it will be a problem for longer bikes, such as recumbents and cargo bikes? But I expect most of those are too heavy to lift anyway!

And on the subject of weight, the Manual Handling Operations Regulations 1992 give 16kg as a guideline for the maximum an average woman should be expected to lift at work to waist height. It's only a guideline, but then again it's assuming a building not a swaying train, and only to waist height. 16kg is a heavy bike but many are that weight, especially with the popularity of e-bikes now.

The 16kg also assumes that you are doing this lift repeatedly every two minutes.

True, it's about long term musculoskeletal injuries, whereas the risks in the train are dropping the bike on yourself or/and somebody else, and tripping.

[Lightning Phil]

Fit a cargo bike in a cupboard with or without the divider? Ha ha ha ha, good luck.

Mine would, it splits in two. It would take up both sides of the space though, so booking would be an issue given the 1 bike per person restriction.

Mind you, I have no plans for long distance train travel with it, but will travel up or down my line to Cambridge or London when a suitable cargo bike event happens. That'll be somewhat easier with 2 halves of a cargo bike.

I made my comment on the basis they retain their idiotic two skinny bikes per cupboard setup.  My recumbent would fit if only bike in there. But not sure if mesh seat frame would get tangled / fit with another bike.

Anyone know the maximum dimensions width wise of each bike assuming two in a cupboard?

[toontra]

Anyone know the maximum dimensions width wise of each bike assuming two in a cupboard?

2 road bikes with 44cm handlebars just fit if hung by the front wheels.  Anything wider, including most straight bars on a hybrid or MTB, will foul each other.

Which begs the question - what bikes were used in the trials prior to commissioning?

[Lightning Phil]

That’s useful.

My recumbent seat is 38cm wide and since it sits next to my road bike (in utility room) the seat frame doesn’t interfere with the road bike cranks and pedals depending on orientation of cranks.  The bars however are 52cm wide (bar end shifter to bar end shifter), which might clash with other bars, unless due to where they are, they are not at same height as road bars when bike is vertical.

I’m going to have to take my road bike  and recumbent out on the patio and line them up as if hanging from their front wheels and see how that looks.

But my recumbent might fit in the cupboards with another bike in there. Which is great news if true. I’ve avoided intercity with the recumbent since the cupboards came in. Didn’t want to take risk it wouldn’t fit.

[Kim]

Which begs the question - what bikes were used in the trials prior to commissioning?

You're implying the trials took place *before* commissioning...

[quixoticgeek]

Which begs the question - what bikes were used in the trials prior to commissioning?

You're implying the trials took place *before* commissioning...

I see little evidence to suggest any trials happened...

J

[toontra]

Which begs the question - what bikes were used in the trials prior to commissioning?

You're implying the trials took place *before* commissioning...

OK - put it another way.  What bikes were used in trials during/after commissioning?

This is important because it goes to the heart of the f**kup.  What bikes were used and were the doors fully open (they never are in practice so you have to approach at a angle, making it much more difficult).

Did they try a MTB with anything over a 2" tyre?

I find it incredible that if these factors were taken into consideration during the trials (before/during/even after) it wasn't immediately and glaringly obvious how dreadful they were.

EDIT:  Actually even with the doors fully open you still have to try and hang at an awkward angle - there's a fixed panel in the way of getting behind the hook.

[Cudzoziemiec]

That’s useful.

My recumbent seat is 38cm wide and since it sits next to my road bike (in utility room) the seat frame doesn’t interfere with the road bike cranks and pedals depending on orientation of cranks.  The bars however are 52cm wide (bar end shifter to bar end shifter), which might clash with other bars, unless due to where they are, they are not at same height as road bars when bike is vertical.

I’m going to have to take my road bike  and recumbent out on the patio and line them up as if hanging from their front wheels and see how that looks.

But my recumbent might fit in the cupboards with another bike in there. Which is great news if true. I’ve avoided intercity with the recumbent since the cupboards came in. Didn’t want to take risk it wouldn’t fit.

Bear in mind that the two hooks are not at the same height. I don't know what the offset is.

[Kim]

Which begs the question - what bikes were used in the trials prior to commissioning?

You're implying the trials took place *before* commissioning...

I see little evidence to suggest any trials happened...

I took part in them.  There's a thread.  I've probably linked to it from this one already.

We were presented with the cupboard as a fait accompli.  We spent some time trying to fit different combinations of bikes into it.  We told them it was rubbish, and needed to be horizontal at floor level.  They told us there was structural train in the way and it couldn't be re-designed now, but promised to raise the false ceiling and change the design of the hooks.

FWIW, my Streetmachine fitted, and I think we even managed to wedge a road bike in next to it, just barely.  Anything with flat bars was in trouble.  We got a full-sized tandem in diagonally with both wheels removed and a lot of wedging.

As I say, there's what you can do when you take your time in an industrial shed with friendly staff and no other passengers or time pressure, and what's practical in the real world...

[toontra]

One of the biggest problems is - you get on and put your bike on the inside hook.  Your station approaches and someone has wedged their bike, plus panniers and other luggage, on the outer hook.  You have to remove their bike/panniers/luggage and try and find somewhere to rest them while you retrieve your bike - difficult on a moving train (you have to do it well in advance or you won't get off the train in time when it does stop).

Then you take your bike down - where do you rest it?  All the vestibule stage is taken up with the other bike and their stuff, and maybe other people's random suitcases.  So you then have two un-secured bikes propped up and prone to violent movement of the train.

Finally you have to re-hang the other bike (invariably a gas-tube monster!).

In reality I get up 10 minutes before my stop to assess how tricky the process is going to be.  Hardly makes for a relaxing journey.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Which begs the question - what bikes were used in the trials prior to commissioning?

You're implying the trials took place *before* commissioning...

I see little evidence to suggest any trials happened...

I took part in them.  There's a thread.  I've probably linked to it from this one already.

We were presented with the cupboard as a fait accompli.  We spent some time trying to fit different combinations of bikes into it.  We told them it was rubbish, and needed to be horizontal at floor level.  They told us there was structural train in the way and it couldn't be re-designed now, but promised to raise the false ceiling and change the design of the hooks.

FWIW, my Streetmachine fitted, and I think we even managed to wedge a road bike in next to it, just barely.  Anything with flat bars was in trouble.  We got a full-sized tandem in diagonally with both wheels removed and a lot of wedging.

As I say, there's what you can do when you take your time in an industrial shed with friendly staff and no other passengers or time pressure, and what's practical in the real world...

Which might be kinda irrelevant now they (or at least LNER) are lowering those same hooks. Plus ca change, plus tout le monde est loser baby.

[Kim]

One of the biggest problems is - you get on and put your bike on the inside hook.  Your station approaches and someone has wedged their bike, plus panniers and other luggage, on the outer hook.  You have to remove their bike/panniers/luggage and try and find somewhere to rest them while you retrieve your bike - difficult on a moving train (you have to do it well in advance or you won't get off the train in time when it does stop).

Then you take your bike down - where do you rest it?  All the vestibule stage is taken up with the other bike and their stuff, and maybe other people's random suitcases.  So you then have two un-secured bikes propped up and prone to violent movement of the train.

Finally you have to re-hang the other bike (invariably a gas-tube monster!).

In reality I get up 10 minutes before my stop to assess how tricky the process is going to be.  Hardly makes for a relaxing journey.

One of the suggestions we made at the trial of the prototype was that a cycle reservation should automatically reserve you the seat closest to the bike spaces.  So in principle, the other cyclist would always be on hand to play Sokoban.

[Ashaman42]

That's far too sensible to be allowed!