Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)

[Kim]

That's far too sensible to be allowed!

Virgin started doing it at some point...

[quixoticgeek]

I took part in them.  There's a thread.  I've probably linked to it from this one already.

We were presented with the cupboard as a fait accompli.  We spent some time trying to fit different combinations of bikes into it.  We told them it was rubbish, and needed to be horizontal at floor level.  They told us there was structural train in the way and it couldn't be re-designed now, but promised to raise the false ceiling and change the design of the hooks.

FWIW, my Streetmachine fitted, and I think we even managed to wedge a road bike in next to it, just barely.  Anything with flat bars was in trouble.  We got a full-sized tandem in diagonally with both wheels removed and a lot of wedging.

As I say, there's what you can do when you take your time in an industrial shed with friendly staff and no other passengers or time pressure, and what's practical in the real world...

But how on earth did it get as far as Kim pointing out how shit it was?

Surely the requirements analysis when the design was put out was "space for bikes", which should have then said "To meat EU standard EN xxx" where EN XXX is the best practice standard for bikes on trains. Cos there's gotta be be one. By now? surely ?

How did they even get as far as a mock up to test? surely the cad diagram with a MTB in it would go "nope!"

The only way they could have got it this shit if the idea of bikes was added once the design had not only been sent for manufacture, but actually built.

It's a complete cluster fuck, and any engineers involved should be ashamed of themselves.

J

[Kim]

It's because someone had the bright idea of a modular space that could take a toilet module (no doubt meticulously worked up in CAD) or a catering module (probably likewise) or 'luggage and stuff' (how hard can it be?), as specified by the TOC.

Of course it doesn't help that the DFT's requirement for carriage of cycles on trains amounts to little more than greenwash.

[Lightning Phil]

With the lowering of the hooks, what is the longest distance between front of front wheel rim and rear mudguard before it gets fouled on the floor?

[Lightning Phil]

 for longer bikes, such as recumbents and cargo bikes? But I expect most of those are too heavy to lift anyway!

My recumbent is same weight as my road bike, give or take 0.5kg and roughly same length. It would be easier to lift rear up to hook as that’s the lighter end once seat bag and water bottles removed. But it’s easier to tilt and rotate on rear wheel before lifting. Recumbents come in a wide range of configurations and weights. The short wheel base more upright ones aren’t as long as you think.

[yorkie]

One of the suggestions we made at the trial of the prototype was that a cycle reservation should automatically reserve you the seat closest to the bike spaces.  So in principle, the other cyclist would always be on hand to play Sokoban.

That definitely hasn't percolated as far as the part of the reservation system that Trans Pennine Express inhabits!


A recent** journey I made on one of Trans Pennine Express's "Nova 1" trains (Class 802/3 - effectively the same as Class 800 inside) gave me a bike reservation in coach D and a seat reservation in coach B on both outward and return journeys. So, I sent them a polite message through their customer contact web page asking why, and - more to the point - what they were intending to do to solve this. Most surprisingly, I got a reply!


** 9th May 2022

Dear yorkie,
...
I appreciate you are unhappy with the seat reservation given when a bike reservation has been booked, however, this is an automated process and the system generates seat reservations randomly. I will forward a suggestion on your behalf regarding seats being allocated in Coach D when a bike reservation is booked.
You are able to amend seat reservations via your online account once you have booked. To do this, once you sign into your online account and on the Dashboard page, you can select 'View Bookings' under the Bookings section. This will open a new screen where you will be able to amend a seat reservation. If this does not work, it means there are no seat reservations available for that journey
Your suggestion will be fed back to the relevant manager.

"Seat reservations are generated randomly" is an understatement!
Although it's not as bad as a set of reservations I got on the east coast once: Bike in coach P (Mark 4 Driving Van Trailer), seat at the north end of coach B - the other end of the train, approximately 10 x 23 metre long coaches away! 

[toontra]

One of the suggestions we made at the trial of the prototype was that a cycle reservation should automatically reserve you the seat closest to the bike spaces.  So in principle, the other cyclist would always be on hand to play Sokoban.

Yeah - that isn't working.  Certainly on GWR and LNER you are often allocated seats and bike spaces at opposite ends of the train. Your best bet is to look down the aisles and hope you spot a cycle helmet!

In practice people get on with bikes without booking.  Even if they have booked, I've rarely seen people display the ticket clearly on the bike (supposedly a requirement).  That would help so you can see where they're getting off.  For that reason alone I always do.

My bloody luck is the two lines I use regularly are GWR and LNER so I've had a lot of experience over the last couple of years, mainly unpleasant.  The whole sorry business is a massive clusterfuck of gross incompetence.

[Lightning Phil]

On the old (is it pendolinos?)  with the guards van for your bikes. The nearest non first class seats were always reserved for cyclists regardless of your seat reservation on LNER.

[Cudzoziemiec]

The original source for news of this redesign seems to be one person's experience as reported on the CTC forum (which has then been reported in a variety of elsewheres). There don't seem to be any official announcements anywhere. So I'm wondering if it's anything more than random or at most experimental. Anyways, I've nicked some photos out of that thread:




https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=151016

[Kim]

What an absolute triumph of BRITISH engineering(!)

[Cudzoziemiec]

The addition of the ramp at the bottom does look as if it might be of some help. Maybe.

But anyway, is it BRITISH engineering or Japanese?

[Lightning Phil]

It is neither, it’s metal made out of cheese that someone bent when trying to bodge it into the space 

[Cudzoziemiec]

Meanwhile, this is a photo described as "a DB TfW train" that someone shared on WhatsApp. The difference is... almost entire.

[quixoticgeek]

back in the distant part of this thread, I posted this twitter thread:

https://twitter.com/quixoticgeek/status/1181184296398274561

It covers bikes on trains from Bulgaria to Norway, and most of the countries in between.

J

[Wowbagger]

@Yorkie:

Some years ago, Jane (F)OTP and I were (I think) the only Southern Softies heading north for a night ride to the Tan Hill Inn. I can't recall whether we started riding at York or Northallerton.

We booked onto the same train independently of each other. To our complete delight, when we boarded at King's Cross, we found our reservations were facing one another across the same table. Then that train was cancelled and we managed to sit together in any case.

[Jaded]

How many bikes should a train take?

[quixoticgeek]

How many bikes should a train take?

Minimum of 8.

J

[Jaded]

Bikes on trains is an interesting thing.

Is it green, if a passenger takes up another passenger's space with a bike?
Is there a difference between a commuter and a bike tourist?
Should you be able to pay to ensure you have enough space for your bike?

Oh, and if a minimum of 8 bikes, is that per train, so that one per carriage?

[bhoot]

Meanwhile, this is a photo described as "a DB TfW train" that someone shared on WhatsApp. The difference is... almost entire.

Looks like a DVT as we used to enjoy on East Coast

[chrisbainbridge]

One incredibly wet day on the Rhine route we took the train. The centre of the carriage, probably 20% was without sets and had racks for bicycles.

[Jaded]

Any comparison with other countries would benefit from information about the way trains are used in those countries. Pre-pandemic rush hour trains were very full in the UK: do other countries trains have similar usage levels?

[Lightning Phil]

Is it green, if a passenger takes up another passenger's space with a bike?

The alternative is a car journey, and it’s only zero sum if the train is at 100% capacity. For the person without a bike they have the option of a bus to remain green if train full. But unless advance or with bike you never book a specific train and therefore no one displaces you from a train.

I have yet to see a UK train at 100% capacity since the pandemic kicked off. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the motorways.

[Cudzoziemiec]

The TfW train pictured above looks like it's designed to take 6, but apparently the conductor on that one said he'd previously had 25 in there, from a club ride.

What I'm really wondering about is all the other stuff in the picture. For instance the orange tubing coiled up on the left. Is it a passenger's luggage, a parcel being sent Red Star style(!), or some piece of train equipment? And all the stuff on the desk – in fact the desk itself. That's clearly conductor's stuff, but what on earth is it all for?

[orienteer]

Bikes can be taken on trains and buses in Japan, by packing the bike into a "rinko". Means removing front wheel and saddle and turning the handlebars before putting in the bag, thus it just becomes a piece of luggage.

There is theoretically a nominal charge for carriage but not usually in practice.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDnL7kPh0Ug

This solves the problem of accommodating most bikes. (Tandems are not road legal in Japan)

[quixoticgeek]

Bikes can be taken on trains and buses in Japan, by packing the bike into a "rinko". Means removing front wheel and saddle and turning the handlebars before putting in the bag, thus it just becomes a piece of luggage.

There is theoretically a nominal charge for carriage but not usually in practice.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDnL7kPh0Ug

This solves the problem of accommodating most bikes. (Tandems are not road legal in Japan)

Yep, and you can take a bike on an ICE or a TGV if you box it up. Which, is quite frankly. A fucking stupid policy.

It may be fine for some roadie with a carbon bike. But what about grandma with an ebike?

Having to package the bike to take it on a train is a stupid idea.

J