How is your microbiome?

[Wowbagger]

I get quite a bit of this. My older daughter has been pursuing a course in ayurvedic medicine and practice and she quite often confuses me with a load of stuff she has learned, and finds absolutely fascinating.

Right on cue, here's a Graun article about the very topic: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/11/unlocking-the-gut-microbiome-and-its-massive-significance-to-our-health

I rather like this paragraph:

Spector’s 30-year-long study of 15,000 twins, TwinsUK, and his PREDICT studies have shown that even genetically identical people respond to the same foods very differently (our microbiomes are so variable that twins share only 30% of the same gut microbes). By feeding participants the same meals on different days, he was able to show that responses to the same meals also vary hugely between individuals, influenced by both the microbiome and genetics. This matters, says the ZOE team, because our response to food is linked to our risk of heart disease, type 2 diabetes and obesity, but also because it blows apart the tired and useless mantra “calories in, calories out”, which doesn’t make sense in a world where two people’s blood glucose levels can be hugely different after eating the same slice of cake.

[citoyen]

The client I work for is a peddler of health foods and supplements, so this kind of thing has been part of my daily life since I started the current job in October 2018.

The science is fascinating, especially the stuff about the gut-brain axis, but I’m sceptical about a lot of the “probiotic” products that are sold on the back of it. Still, it keeps me in a job, so I’m happy for people to keep buying them.

If an Ayurvedic diet has any health benefits, that’s largely fortuitous. As with any restrictive diet, you also have to be careful not to miss out any essential nutrients (B vitamins, iron and choline, for example).

The simplest way to support gut health is to eat lots of fibre (which is more or less what it says in the piece).

[Jaded]

she quite often confuses me with a load of stuff she has learned

It took me a while to work that one out 

[Wowbagger]

If an Ayurvedic diet has any health benefits, that’s largely fortuitous. As with any restrictive diet, you also have to be careful not to miss out any essential nutrients (B vitamins, iron and choline, for example).

Is there a difference between an ayurvedic diet (whole life approach) and what the media perceives to be an ayurvedic diet? It's been around a very long time. I don't claim any expertise, but if someone can make money out of bastardising something, they will.

One of the senior bods running the course my daughter's on is a GP in western medicine as well as being an ayurvedic practitioner. As I understand it, his approach is that both arms of medicine reach similar conclusions but via different routes.

Edit: I think I intended to put this thread in "Health & Fitness" and I think it would be more appropriate there. I blame my Sunday Morning brain. Mods - please move?

[citoyen]

Is there a difference between an ayurvedic diet (whole life approach) and what the media perceives to be an ayurvedic diet? It's been around a very long time. I don't claim any expertise, but if someone can make money out of bastardising something, they will.

I don’t think it’s the media that are the problem. It’s the third-rate hippies who set themselves up as Ayurvedic practitioners who are responsible for popular perceptions of Ayurveda. (Ayurvedic medicine is not regulated in the UK.)

One of the senior bods running the course my daughter's on is a GP in western medicine as well as being an ayurvedic practitioner. As I understand it, his approach is that both arms of medicine reach similar conclusions but via different routes.

Like you say, Ayurveda has been around a long time, and no doubt many of its principles are based on sound observations, so it’s “scientific” in that respect.

And there’s nothing unusual about mainstream medicine adopting practices from traditional medicine. I’ve had acupuncture at my local GP’s surgery, for example. There may be much in Ayurveda that is worth incorporating into a “western” lifestyle.

However, there’s also a lot in Ayurveda that is pure myth and folklore.

The gut health supplement business tends to piggyback on the modern science rather than traditional practices like Ayurveda.

[Gattopardo]

Acupuncture is based on you believing it will work.

The gut biome thing is quite interesting and being looked it to.  Hence why eating fermented foods such as saurkraut and kimchi can improve you gut biome and your overall health.  There is also the idea/current theory that 90% of seratonin is made in the gut - https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/microbes-help-produce-serotonin-gut-46495 but then serotonin does seem to control a great deal of things in the human body.

[citoyen]

Acupuncture is based on you believing it will work.

Kind of.

But whether it works or not, the reason I mentioned it is that it's an example of a traditional therapy that is offered on the NHS. And the point is that you have to be careful about reading too much into that - it certainly doesn't necessarily mean the treatment is proven beneficial by science.

Hence why eating fermented foods such as saurkraut and kimchi can improve you gut biome and your overall health.

Again, kind of... it's not necessarily as simple as eating foods that contain 'good' microbes - not least because most of those microbes won't reach your gut as they are destroyed in the stomach.

Also, as with any diet, it's how fermented foods fit in with the rest of what you eat that matters. If you live off McDonald's but wash it down with a glass of kefir, you aren't going to have a healthy gut.

Eating food that is high in fibre is probably more beneficial because it creates the right environment in your gut for the 'good' microbes to thrive.

[Mr Larrington]

Hush now, citoyen, lest Gwyneth Paltrow sets her legal eagles on you

[citoyen]

She can sod off, with her exploding fanny candles.

[spesh]

Hush now, citoyen, lest Gwyneth Paltrow sets her legal eagles on you

Wait, what.. are Goop now peddling poop enemas?*


* Joking apart, "faecal microbiota transplantation" is a thing, eg: https://www.nice.org.uk/advice/mib247/chapter/The-procedure

[Regulator]

Acupuncture is based on you believing it will work.

Given that dry needling is now fairly widely accepted in mainstream clinical practice (e.g. physiotherapy and pain management) that's a bit of a false claim.  The simple fact is no-one is quite sure why acupuncture/dry needling works but the evidence is, on balance, that it does for quite a few clinical conditions.

[ian]

I'd say the evidence is sketchy at best, with small gains above placebo in most studies, and some not at all. There's lots of crud around physiotherapy and associated fields, and how much of it actually really works.

[Gattopardo]

Acupuncture is based on you believing it will work.

Given that dry needling is now fairly widely accepted in mainstream clinical practice (e.g. physiotherapy and pain management) that's a bit of a false claim.  The simple fact is no-one is quite sure why acupuncture/dry needling works but the evidence is, on balance, that it does for quite a few clinical conditions.

Am not arguing, honest.  But the infamous saline pain relief after wisdom teeth removal experiments show that.

But even homeopathy works in some...

[Regulator]

Hush now, citoyen, lest Gwyneth Paltrow sets her legal eagles on you

Wait, what.. are Goop now peddling poop enemas?*


* Joking apart, "faecal microbiota transplantation" is a thing, eg: https://www.nice.org.uk/advice/mib247/chapter/The-procedure

Yep.  My gastroenterologist at the Royal London was involved in using it for treating IBD... and was something of a pioneer of helminthic therapy in Crohn's disease.

[Gattopardo]

Hush now, citoyen, lest Gwyneth Paltrow sets her legal eagles on you

Wait, what.. are Goop now peddling poop enemas?*


* Joking apart, "faecal microbiota transplantation" is a thing, eg: https://www.nice.org.uk/advice/mib247/chapter/The-procedure

Yep.  My gastroenterologist at the Royal London was involved in using it for treating IBD... and was something of a pioneer of helminthic therapy in Crohn's disease.

Did you see the bbc tv program on it? Facinating.