Are e-bikes ruining mountain biking?

[joy of essex]

Bobb, as a fellow player, can I ask if you invented "acoustic bike"?  It's brilliant!

As mentioned, it's quite a common term!

Judas!

[joy of essex]

I may need to explain this to any one  not a Dylan fan or under 60.....

[Cudzoziemiec]

I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.

Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?

That's what I thought too, but there were three of them.  Two that overtook me, and one I saw earlier on my way out.  All same design.

Not necessarily. They might just have strong riders. If acoustic Nutty can go up hill at 15mph, then acoustic super-Nutty can go faster. However, there are many unregulated e-bikes in use.  I'm impressed by Nutty's 15mph up hill.

[HTFB]

... the back roads were "horse riding routes" and in the winter they were neigh on impassable by foot or bike ...

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

Considering MTBs have moved to fatter tyres with lower air pressures and this is believed to be less erosive on the ground than skinny mtb tyres and even feet, and that an eMTB can be used to go up steeper stuff that would previously have required said feet.

You could argue eMTBs will cause less erosion.

Shite braking techniques however...

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Bikes of any kind make tyre ruts enabling water to run down the hill. Apparently the stream also takes soil and so the erosion is increased.  Footprints of walkers are bad enough of course. I read that there is a 45 minute queue for the summit of Mount Snowdon

[FifeingEejit]

I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.

Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?

That's what I thought too, but there were three of them.  Two that overtook me, and one I saw earlier on my way out.  All same design.

Not necessarily. They might just have strong riders. If acoustic Nutty can go up hill at 15mph, then acoustic super-Nutty can go faster. However, there are many unregulated e-bikes in use.  I'm impressed by Nutty's 15mph up hill.

The assistance cuts out entirely at 15
When I got a shot of one to play in my then local woods it took me a wee while to figure out how to go manipulate the cranks such that I went everywhere at 14.99mph

That was until the battery ran out and I had to lug it home.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

[Cudzoziemiec]

Assistance cuts out (if to UK/EU spec), but transmission does not.

[nobby]

Not a issue off road 

Indeed, but as Nutty was overtaken by three cyclists and he factored in the speeds the cars were doing I assumed he took his shopping home by a road route rather than the off road shopping home route 

[lissotriton]

I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.

Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?

Not a issue off road 

Also illegal off road, unless you have permission from the landowner.

[nuttycyclist]

Not a issue off road 

Indeed, but as Nutty was overtaken by three cyclists and he factored in the speeds the cars were doing I assumed he took his shopping home by a road route rather than the off road shopping home route 

Go to the top of the class.

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.

Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?

Not a issue off road 

Also illegal off road, unless you have permission from the landowner.

I suppose you can give yourself permission. I am thinking of buying a country estate when the price drops a little.

[rogerzilla]

Bobb, as a fellow player, can I ask if you invented "acoustic bike"?  It's brilliant!

As mentioned, it's quite a common term!

Surely the classical bike came before the acoustic bike.

[rogerzilla]

Assistance cuts out (if to UK/EU spec), but transmission does not.

Faecebook Marketplace is full of e-bikes claiming up to 2,500W and 50mph.

[Kim]

Imagine how easily you could achieve splatty DETH by fitting that kind of power to a fast recumbent...

[Peter]

Bobb, as a fellow player, can I ask if you invented "acoustic bike"?  It's brilliant!

As mentioned, it's quite a common term!

Surely the classical bike came before the acoustic bike.

Yes, but it was very short-lived because of the nylon/gut spokes.

[Lightning Phil]

I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.

Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?

On the road yes, not off road in the woods.  I’ve seen e mtb on forest tracks in Dolomites and definitely not e  pedalec compliant.

[Peter]

Why would your seeing it make it legal - do they have different regulations?

[Adam]

First use I can find is 2014.

https://twitter.com/thebeatcroft/status/421263159673245696

J

Although Luka Bloom wrote "The Acoustic Motorbike" in 1992 about his love of cycling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5TFTbT5eEM&ab_channel=KAYLEPH

[Peter]

Adam, I seem to know that name - is he Christy Moore's son?

[Cudzoziemiec]

According to Wikipedia that's right. (I'd never heard of either of them before Adam's post above.)

[PhilO]

I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.

Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?

On the road yes, not off road in the woods.  I’ve seen e mtb on forest tracks in Dolomites and definitely not e  pedalec compliant.

Off road legality gets complicated. My understanding is that under UK law, anything capable of going faster than 15mph is a mechanically propelled vehicle and so can't be used on Bridleways, period. It could be legal on BOATs and RUPPs, but only if registered and insured as a mechanically propelled vehicle (ie moped or motorcycle, depending on top speed).  Use away from recognised rights of way would not be illegal, but is unlawful unless you have the landowner's permission.  [It could be illegal is you cause damage, but on the basis of criminal damage law, not vehicle use]. Then there are police powers under anti-social vehicle use powers, but I don't know much (anything!) about those, so won't speculate.

So a 'not road-legal' Ebike is also not legal on other RoWs because the laws governing its classification for road use also apply on other rights of way.  Just like an unregistered/untaxed/uninsured MX bike.  Ride one on a byway and you could theoretically get a motoring conviction.  But the chances of enforcement are, of course, negligible. I suspect that the only way users will get the message is if a few people get stung for high-value third party liability claims, leading to constabulary attention for driving without licence and/or insurance.

In theory, de-regulated Ebikes could be permissible at trail centres if the operator is happy. I'm not aware of any that do encourage it. And trail centres tend to be designed around slow-up, fast-down principles so >15mph capability seems pointless to me. That's not to say that an 'Ebike ascent route' couldn't be added, of course.

What's legal or not in the Dolomites is an open question...

[FifeingEejit]

I estimate I was heading uphill at about 15mph and three ebikes overtook me at my estimate of nearly 30mph based on local knowledge of the road and the speed the cars were doing.

Any e bike going uphill at over 15mph surely has an illegal, over 250 watt, motor?

On the road yes, not off road in the woods.  I’ve seen e mtb on forest tracks in Dolomites and definitely not e  pedalec compliant.

Off road legality gets complicated. My understanding is that under English law, anything capable of going faster than 15mph is a mechanically propelled vehicle and so can't be used on Bridleways, period. It could be legal on BOATs and RUPPs, but only if registered and insured as a mechanically propelled vehicle (ie moped or motorcycle, depending on top speed).  Use away from recognised rights of way would not be illegal, but is unlawful unless you have the landowner's permission.  [It could be illegal is you cause damage, but on the basis of criminal damage law, not vehicle use]. Then there are police powers under anti-social vehicle use powers, but I don't know much (anything!) about those, so won't speculate.

So a 'not road-legal' Ebike is also not legal on other RoWs because the laws governing its classification for road use also apply on other rights of way.  Just like an unregistered/untaxed/uninsured MX bike.  Ride one on a byway and you could theoretically get a motoring conviction.  But the chances of enforcement are, of course, negligible. I suspect that the only way users will get the message is if a few people get stung for high-value third party liability claims, leading to constabulary attention for driving without licence and/or insurance.

In theory, de-regulated Ebikes could be permissible at trail centres if the operator is happy. I'm not aware of any that do encourage it. And trail centres tend to be designed around slow-up, fast-down principles so >15mph capability seems pointless to me. That's not to say that an 'Ebike ascent route' couldn't be added, of course.

What's legal or not in the Dolomites is an open question...

Fixed that for you, the one nationists haven't managed to consolidate the 3 legal systems (yet)

What the situation is in Irish law I dunnoh.

Scots Law, basically they aren't legit under right to roam, so need land owners permission otherwise if the Polis catch you you'll see it hauled off to the crusher along with various other illegally used MX and trials bikes.

There's also differences in the definition of Road between Scots and English law for purposes of the RTA and also differences in where the RTA applies that isn't a road, which may trump land owner permission too.

[PhilO]

Off road legality gets complicated. My understanding is that under English law,...

Fixed that for you,

A fair point, and I apologise for lumping Scotland in with the rest. Spare a thought for those of us the right side of Offa's Dyke, though! 

(I speak as an incomer from the flatlands of the East Midlands)

[Peat]

Having been sprayed with gravel and mud from my uncles's electric assist MTB's rear wheel spinning up climbs, I can definitely see the case that they cause more trail damage then pedal powered alone.

However, in terms of leading causes of PROW damage, I think they are still way down the list.
Byways get wrecked with deep triple ruts from 4x4's & MX bikes, making it difficult & unpleasant to walk/ride on all year round.
Bridleways get wrecked by constant hoof traffic. After a decent spell of good weather, you often get a nice smooth line down the edges THANKS to MTB's, but as soon as it rains, the equestrians seem to relish churning that up aswell.

It's good to have awareness and hold others in the community to account, but i fear this is akin to the urban e-scooters debate where many consider them to be an existential threat while ignoring the elephant in the room.

[Paul H]

Rather than the bickering among users, wouldn't the issue of erosion be better tackled by opening up more of the countryside for all?