Author Topic: Something of a rant about plumbing  (Read 1003 times)

Something of a rant about plumbing
« on: 10 January, 2022, 10:40:29 am »
So, we have this archaic oil boiler/stove system, a bit like a rayburn.

The stove itself is pretty and nice to cook on, especially oven cooking.

The heating system . . .

Traditional hot water tank upstairs, plus two header tanks.

Problem number one: The hot water tank heating coil is on the central heating circuit. No Y valve switching between two; there is only the option to heat water and radiators (in the 'heat' of summer we switch the system off and use immersion heater).

Problem number two: The system is filling with air from somewhere. I've bled, filled (from external drain pipe with a hose); within a couple of days it is full of air again.

Problem number three: bleeding radiators means hooking up the hose to the external drain. Which brings us to Problem number four.

Problem number four:  The heating circuit doesn't use the header tanks. It is just a circuit of copper with a goose-neck overflow into one of the header tanks. Two problems with that; one is that there is no pressure in the system. Just a 'head' of a metre. If I bleed a load of air from radiators, the level drops so low that the whole system is sucking air from the top.

Problem number five: The radiators are on a mixed serial/parallel connection. None of them have thermostatic valves (even the ones plumbed to the out and return), few even have a control/shut off valve.


I know how it should be changed (install Y valve, parallel plumb rads, header tank on heating circuit).
Just a big job, particularly tracing all of the rats nest of copper. The radiators are old, so I don't want to risk undoing them to add valves (plus the pipework isn't lined up for valves).
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Something of a rant about plumbing
« Reply #1 on: 10 January, 2022, 11:49:24 pm »
First observation. The gas build up in the radiators is air, hydrogen or possibly hydrogen sufide. Identifying which will go a long way towards diagnosis.

Re: Something of a rant about plumbing
« Reply #2 on: 11 January, 2022, 08:28:22 am »
First observation. The gas build up in the radiators is air, hydrogen or possibly hydrogen sufide. Identifying which will go a long way towards diagnosis.
Hydrogen sulfide from corrosion in the rads?

My big worry is that it is combustion gasses, that the stove we put in might have pinholes in the water jacket.

If it were a sealed system, or had a dedicated header I could put chemicals in the system.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Something of a rant about plumbing
« Reply #3 on: 11 January, 2022, 09:29:16 am »
First observation. The gas build up in the radiators is air, hydrogen or possibly hydrogen sufide. Identifying which will go a long way towards diagnosis.
I would go back one further; what is the water source? Municipal / private, surface water / ground water?

Some waters (more often ground sourced) naturally contain elevated levels of CO2, H2S or just air. When heated the saturation pressures of these gasses change which may lead to the gas coming out of solution.

Alternatively the simple mechanical issue of perforated plumbing is most likely.

Re: Something of a rant about plumbing
« Reply #4 on: 11 January, 2022, 10:20:52 am »
The issue with air in the system started after I had a replacement stove put in.

I'm now wondering if some of the joints for the new system are not water-tight.

There is no sign of leakage, so I'd discounted that.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Something of a rant about plumbing
« Reply #5 on: 11 January, 2022, 11:56:02 am »
The issue with air in the system started after I had a replacement stove put in.

I'm now wondering if some of the joints for the new system are not water-tight.

There is no sign of leakage, so I'd discounted that.

They can be water-tight, but not air-tight.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Something of a rant about plumbing
« Reply #6 on: 11 January, 2022, 12:03:01 pm »
The issue with air in the system started after I had a replacement stove put in.

I'm now wondering if some of the joints for the new system are not water-tight.

There is no sign of leakage, so I'd discounted that.

They can be water-tight, but not air-tight.

But the question then becomes why is air going into the system rather than water going out? Given the low pressure identified in problem four, it is even possible that the flow of water past the branch to the tank could act as an ejector and suck air into the pipework.

Re: Something of a rant about plumbing
« Reply #7 on: 11 January, 2022, 12:52:22 pm »
The issue with air in the system started after I had a replacement stove put in.

I'm now wondering if some of the joints for the new system are not water-tight.

There is no sign of leakage, so I'd discounted that.

They can be water-tight, but not air-tight.

But the question then becomes why is air going into the system rather than water going out? Given the low pressure identified in problem four, it is even possible that the flow of water past the branch to the tank could act as an ejector and suck air into the pipework.

That confuses me as well.
The other possibility is that hot water flowing past a non-air-tight joint could be dissolving air. I'm spitballing here.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Something of a rant about plumbing
« Reply #8 on: 11 January, 2022, 01:17:46 pm »
Hot water dissolves less air than cold water1, at the same altitude (pressure) 40oC water dissolves 60% of the air that water at 10oC does (Mol/m3)

Fortunately in the DAF water treatment technique the improved efficiency of aeration counteracts the increased viscosity of the water at lower temperatures so the system still works overall.


1. Dissolved Air Floatation by J Edzwald and J Haarhoff, Published by the American Water Works Association.