Emergency telephone calls and the end of copper wired telephony?

[slope]

Apologies in advance from Slope and his less than useful twp (Welsh) tech brain

Was due to be switched to BT's Digital Voice service tomorrow, even though they agreed to delay due to alerting them that in the event of a power cut (frequent-ish here in the windy mountains), there'd be a problem, but they forgot it seems?

Any road up, THE ISSUE is:

There's no mobile phone coverage here unless one walks up Yr Wyddfa (Snowdon) or walk/cycl/drive 3.5 miles to the village (hardly possible during a heart attack or a broken leg cos a tree has crashed through Snowdon Towers)

So without a corded phone and copper wires, it would be impossible to contact emergency services during a powercut.

BT's website has a solution but they've been out of stock and have no idea when that will be resolved.

Having contacted them again today (all the usual faff of waiting on the phone whilst being tortured by frequently interupted musak to make you wanna scream/kill), BT have credited my account with £80 so I can purchase my own USP thingy.

Is this what is meant and is it the right kinda thing?

I suppose I need to power not only the FTTP white box thingy, but also the router?

Am I right in thinking it's ok for providing power to make an emergency call, as long as it's no longer than 9 minutes (usable battery storage?) and not used for anything else?

As ever, the generosity of YACF wisdom would be much appreciated

ps what confuses me is the unavailable* BT solution only seems to power the FTTP white box thingy, so why were they offering that, when the BT router is powered separately!?


*reasons variously given by BT call centre staffs - Brexit, shortage of lithium, global shipping shenanigans and Covid19

[Syd]

You will need to have backup power to all devices that need to be switched on to allow calls to be made.

I have FTTP through a company called Hyperoptic so my setup is likely to be a bit different.  I have a network port into which my router connects via an ethernet cable and my phone plugs into the rear of the router. I only need to provide backup power to that as the rest of the system is located elsewhere in the building and the responsibility of the ISP.

If you have more than one powered element in your home you will need to supply both via the UPS. If you are also using a cordless phone the base of that will need powered too.

The one you linked to will work and is probably a bit excessive in capacity for your needs. Not that that is a bad thing.

[lissotriton]

ps what confuses me is the unavailable* BT solution only seems to power the FTTP white box thingy, so why were they offering that, when the BT router is powered separately!?

Perhaps the fibre ONT is able to pass through power to the router? It could do this using Power Over Ethernet. Though doesn't seem to mention this in the specifications.
Note it seems there are 2 different versions of the Smart Hub 2 - one for non-FTTP (with 4 yellow ethernet ports) and one for FTTP (3 yellow ports plus one red WAN port). And it seems you need a matching battery backup. Maybe only the FTTP version supports PoE?

Could test it by unplugging it and see what happens.

[giropaul]

A satellite phone should work.Emergency ones are about £250 or so.

[slowfen]

There is another issue with the digital voice service, the current phone help systems (lifelines) don’t work with them.  Also, supposedly BT cannot make you change, not that they make this option easy.

[mrcharly-YHT]

ps what confuses me is the unavailable* BT solution only seems to power the FTTP white box thingy, so why were they offering that, when the BT router is powered separately!?

Perhaps the fibre ONT is able to pass through power to the router? It could do this using Power Over Ethernet. Though doesn't seem to mention this in the specifications.
Note it seems there are 2 different versions of the Smart Hub 2 - one for non-FTTP (with 4 yellow ethernet ports) and one for FTTP (3 yellow ports plus one red WAN port). And it seems you need a matching battery backup. Maybe only the FTTP version supports PoE?

Could test it by unplugging it and see what happens.

I'm pretty sure PoE only works for copper-cabled ethernet.

[Wombat]

Slope, does your white box on the wall thingy, not contain a battery backup unit internally?  I'm sure someone here said very recent ones didn't.  Mine (FTTP 2018 vintage) has what appears to be a backup power unit, with a charge light, the unit is currently warm.  I'm assuming mine (not that far from you, but in North Powys, in an area with a so-so variable phone signal) is similar to yours.  My smart hub thingy does have the one red port and 3 yellow ones, and they were clear I was supposed to use the supplied red lead to the red port from the modem box.  The modem box does appear to still be alive with the power off, but obviously with no power to the router, I'd still be stuffed re: internet.  The modem does have a "Tel1" socket, which has my ten year old phone plugged into it.  I have no idea what I'm supposed to do when the end of traditional phone services comes, BT certainly wouldn't do anything as helpful as tell their customers anything useful.  I do not have a spare ethernet port on the router, to connect a new fangled VOIP phone, I reckon giving it only 3 output ports is stingy as hell.  One goes to the PC a meter or so away, one goes off to the living room for TV and other connected devices, and onwards to the workshop, and t'other is for the NAS drive.

The router is definitely not powered by its ethernet, it has a mains unit, and is dead if switched off.

[Wombat]

link to photo of mine.  I'm hoping that method still works!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/94wHFyU2zFWysDxs6

[Jurek]

No worky for me.

[Wombat]

Arse...

 https://photos.app.goo.gl/94wHFyU2zFWysDxs6

I'm rubbish at this, its years since I last had need of doing it.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Both work for me on iPhone. I am logged into Google's plan for world domination though.

[Jurek]

No worky on my Mac.
Both work on my Windows machine.

ETA - It's the ancient and clunky version of Firefox on my Mac that's the culprit  - it works fine in Safari.

[aidan.f]

These solutions, good as they are would have been useless during storm Arwen when power was off for days.
What everyone in Northumberland needed was rather more than the POTS (phone) as to achieve anything these days, such as contacting power utilities and getting restoration updates requires a web browser...
Even if you power your own kit the fttc upstream street cabinets green boxes have by design only 3 hours battery autonomy. Assume 30 mins with a fully loaded cabinet and 5yo battery.
I am sure that those who can access the resources of yacf will be able to manage, the rest of the population can get out the candles and playing cards .

[aidan.f]

Slope to give some practical advice rather than a rant.

Am I right in thinking it's ok for providing power to make an emergency call, as long as it's no longer than 9 minutes (usable battery storage?) and not used for anything else?

your UPS linky has a specification of '9 minutes at full load' *
The BT kit your routers and stuff will be a fraction of that so expect a few hours.
that 'few hours' starts counting down with the power cut,  the UPS only defers the inevitable, unless you turn everything off and back on again to make that emergency call (I wouldn't)

*The BR700 can apparently supply 420W resistive for nine minutes when brand new in a lab*
it has a 9 Ah battery ~ 108 Wh. My conservative guesstimate to take account of a lot of unknown inefficiencies
20 watts worth of wall warts for ~ 2 hours  (40 Wh) hours

Another consideration is getting the 'wall wart' power supplies to fit the six closely spaced sockets IMO you will at the most fit three
better to have fewer sockets on the UPS and some extension leads

If the UPS fails [they do] then your household needs to know how to bypass all the anabaric string
this is where one extension lead - 'unplug here' - 'plug in here' is useful
If anything else fails e.g. your router you have no emergency contact plus no internet access to order a replacement

The UPS battery will have a life of ~5 years It's a standard replaceable item. You can of course plan for regular replacement

I don't forsee open reach doing this for others

As my first post is this a reliable system plan?

[mrcharly-YHT]

As my first post is this a reliable system plan?

No

The assumption is that everyone will have a mobile phone and signal. Flawed for three reasons:

Not everyone has or wants a mobile phone.
Not everyone lives in signal.
Conditions that cause power cuts also take out mobile phone masts. In one of our recent power cuts, the mobile signal rapidly degraded from 4G to nothing.
It also relies on mobiles being charged.

[slope]

Slope to give some practical advice rather than a rant.

  Many thanks aidan.f for the precise info.

As there is no reliable system plan but BT have given me £80 I shall order a BR700 UPS brick thingy and be mindful of the limitations.

(or should I spend the £80 on candles and booze?)

[hellymedic]

Call me Cassandra but I can't see how this is going to end well. I know power WILL go out for multiple reasons, almost anywhere, occasionally.

Separately hard-wired back-up landlines seem a fairly solid backstop and I think we need them, even though they are pricy to maintain.

My WATER failed yesterday, as it did for much of north-west London, because there'd been a power cut to the waterworks in Bushey.

Climatic conditions here in Outer London were not extreme…

Excessive reliance on a continuous electricity supply is bound to cause trouble (and quite possibly tragedy).

[mrcharly-YHT]

Call me Cassandra but I can't see how this is going to end well. I know power WILL go out for multiple reasons, almost anywhere, occasionally.

Separately hard-wired back-up landlines seem a fairly solid backstop and I think we need them, even though they are pricy to maintain.

My WATER failed yesterday, as it did for much of north-west London, because there'd been a power cut to the waterworks in Bushey.

Climatic conditions here in Outer London were not extreme…

Excessive reliance on a continuous electricity supply is bound to cause trouble (and quite possibly tragedy).

I agree on all points.

We were very pleased to have backup (one room) heating and cooking that wasn't dependent on electricity. Nearly all other forms of heating need electricity.

[hellymedic]

Our gas cooker can be lit with matches, so we can cook & keep the kitchen warm.
We have bottled water and a rainwater butt.
I'm not safe with candles so will sit in the dark or use the odd torch.
I still prefer to have a landline to dial 105...

[Wombat]

If we have a power cut, we also have a water cut, as our water is pumped by mains electricity from a borehole in our garden.  We do actually have a bit of leeway, as we'll have gravity feed from the roof tank until that runs out.  We also have 2000 litres stored (definitely not potable) rainwater in tanks outside, normally used for garden and car washing purposes, but we could use that for flushing loos etc.  We do have a wood burning stove, and portable camping gas cooker, as any sane person who lives out in the sticks should.

Its a bit frustrating that our solar PV system is required to shut off during a mains failure, as that should be capable of keeping us going indefinitely during daylight hours, otherwise.  As we have a shutoff switch to disconnect our system from the mains, to be powered from an external generator, I wonder if I could fool it by attaching a small generator?  At least with a major failure the elec supplier can give us a generator as we have an input point for it, they will do so for an extended cut, due to our water system.  When we reported a cut a while back, and they said it would be hours, they asked if we needed a generator, but we said we'd manage for the rest of the day.

[Flite]

Conditions that cause power cuts also take out mobile phone masts. In one of our recent power cuts, the mobile signal rapidly degraded from 4G to nothing.
It also relies on mobiles being charged.

So true. Six days with no electric, and the only mobile phone mast for miles also without electric.
We still have a landline, so some neighbours could check on one another.
But Powergrid were boasting that they were "keeping customers informed"  - yeah, via website, e-mails and texts.   They live in a different world. People with landlines gave up on dialling 105 having been on hold for over an hour. People who did get through were told to go on-line. We couldn't report the electic was off, so they disputed when the cuts started so they didn't have to pay out compensation.
People here did need to contact emergency services, and couldn't.
Relatives were frantic with worry when they could not contact elderly relatives who "weren't answering their phone"

The infrastructure in too many areas of Britain would shame a third world country.  It needs bringing up to a decent standard for 100% of the populatiion instead of coming up with ever more fanciful and profit making schemes.
A while ago, I asked a local tech type about DAB radio - "Not in your lifetime, pet"

[Cudzoziemiec]

On that last point, the electricity supply in India is notoriously unreliable. Power cuts in a big city every day for an hour or so, in rural areas they can last literally days. Yet the mobile phone network was reliable. I presume each cell was connected to a DG, presumably inline. Probably solar too. That last one, of course, is somewhat less reliable in higher latitudes. But if each mast in UK, or just each mast in isolated parts of UK, had DG, I expect the power cuts would be too rare to be sure of the gens coming on (or even having fuel!).

[Kim]

This is all heavily leaning in the direction of satellite (either a phone, or something like Starlink) as a backup connectivity option - bypassing the local infrastructure entirely.

There's a solid argument for people living in the sticks to have a ham radio licence to go with that wood-burner, I reckon.

And yes, solar inverters capable of island mode with appropriate transfer switch.

[Kim]

Relatives were frantic with worry when they could not contact elderly relatives who "weren't answering their phone"

A surprising number of people are unaware that a telephone line with nothing connected to it (which includes one with a break between customer and exchange, and one where the customer's phone-that-requires-external-power is without power) just rings, rather than giving some sort of error tone.

[Wombat]

After yesterday's shenanigans weather-wise, I can report that my landline phone, which is directly off the fibre modem box thingy, was totally dead when I tried to call it within minutes of the power cut starting.  I got a message saying words to the effect that this call cannot be connected, yet other mobile calls worked OK, and I was receiving emails stood outside so I assume it was at the home end.  I assume this is because both my own battery unit in the modem had died within minutes, and the backup in the fibre box along the road had died too.  I was about 7.5 miles from home when I called it, in another village also affected by the same power cut.

After the power was reconnected two and a bit hours later at 1736 (devious remote switching round it, they were still fighting the killer tree) it took quite a few minutes before we had anything out of the modem equating to usability. The battery box said "fault"and this went out after 20 mins or so, and the "on charge" light only went out about 10 mins ago.

This gives me the impression that BT/Openreach haven't got a fucking clue how to run a communications system.  So, VOIP only phone systems over internet, just don't work, absolutely useless.

SP energy networks 10/10, Vodafone 9/10, BT 0/10.  We got a series of texts from SP at home telling us about progress with the power cut (we're on the priority services register because of our electrically pumped water supply) which of course also highlighted that the mobile system was OK, actually getting a signal indoors, which is not always the case.