Emergency telephone calls and the end of copper wired telephony?

[davelodwig]

After yesterday's shenanigans weather-wise, I can report that my landline phone, which is directly off the fibre modem box thingy, was totally dead when I tried to call it within minutes of the power cut starting.  I got a message saying words to the effect that this call cannot be connected, yet other mobile calls worked OK, and I was receiving emails stood outside so I assume it was at the home end.  I assume this is because both my own battery unit in the modem had died within minutes, and the backup in the fibre box along the road had died too.  I was about 7.5 miles from home when I called it, in another village also affected by the same power cut.

After the power was reconnected two and a bit hours later at 1736 (devious remote switching round it, they were still fighting the killer tree) it took quite a few minutes before we had anything out of the modem equating to usability. The battery box said "fault"and this went out after 20 mins or so, and the "on charge" light only went out about 10 mins ago.

This gives me the impression that BT/Openreach haven't got a fucking clue how to run a communications system.  So, VOIP only phone systems over internet, just don't work, absolutely useless.

SP energy networks 10/10, Vodafone 9/10, BT 0/10.  We got a series of texts from SP at home telling us about progress with the power cut (we're on the priority services register because of our electrically pumped water supply) which of course also highlighted that the mobile system was OK, actually getting a signal indoors, which is not always the case.

I think that's unfair on openreach.  I know quite a few chaps that work for them and they do know how to run a communications network.  Customers just don't want to pay what it costs is the problem.

When you get internet for the lowest possible price, despite bandwidth costs rising and expect unlimited usage where is it people think the difference is made up?

[lissotriton]

For FTTP, Openreach no longer take responsibility for the phone line. They just supply a fibre connection.
It's up to your ISP as to whether they provide an analogue phone adapter, or some sort of VOIP etc. And the ISP is responsible for any battery backup as required.

[robgul]

This is all heavily leaning in the direction of satellite (either a phone, or something like Starlink) as a backup connectivity option - bypassing the local infrastructure entirely.

There's a solid argument for people living in the sticks to have a ham radio licence to go with that wood-burner, I reckon.

And yes, solar inverters capable of island mode with appropriate transfer switch.

Having lived outside a fairly remote village we had contingency with Camping Gaz lamps a stove - and a small Honda generator that connected to the house wiring with a pretty crude method - a cable with a 13A plug on both ends - you just connected to the generator and a socket outlet (having flipped the fuse breaker to off for that ring main) - looking back it probably wasn't wise, but it did work to power lights.

[Wombat]

After yesterday's shenanigans weather-wise, I can report that my landline phone, which is directly off the fibre modem box thingy, was totally dead when I tried to call it within minutes of the power cut starting.  I got a message saying words to the effect that this call cannot be connected, yet other mobile calls worked OK, and I was receiving emails stood outside so I assume it was at the home end.  I assume this is because both my own battery unit in the modem had died within minutes, and the backup in the fibre box along the road had died too.  I was about 7.5 miles from home when I called it, in another village also affected by the same power cut.

After the power was reconnected two and a bit hours later at 1736 (devious remote switching round it, they were still fighting the killer tree) it took quite a few minutes before we had anything out of the modem equating to usability. The battery box said "fault"and this went out after 20 mins or so, and the "on charge" light only went out about 10 mins ago.

This gives me the impression that BT/Openreach haven't got a fucking clue how to run a communications system.  So, VOIP only phone systems over internet, just don't work, absolutely useless.

SP energy networks 10/10, Vodafone 9/10, BT 0/10.  We got a series of texts from SP at home telling us about progress with the power cut (we're on the priority services register because of our electrically pumped water supply) which of course also highlighted that the mobile system was OK, actually getting a signal indoors, which is not always the case.

I think that's unfair on openreach.  I know quite a few chaps that work for them and they do know how to run a communications network.  Customers just don't want to pay what it costs is the problem.

When you get internet for the lowest possible price, despite bandwidth costs rising and expect unlimited usage where is it people think the difference is made up?

Not remotely unfair on Openreach.  I did not choose cheapest broadband, I had to get the only broadband because BT refuse to release the infrastructure paid for by the EU and Welsh Government to other providers.  It cost substantially more than in my previous home, for a slower service which was provided 6 weeks late, after many missed appointments with no apology.  They are utter bastards who couldn't give a toss for their customers.  Maybe they have engineers who do know how to run a service, but the bean counters don't let them.  And please no-one trot out the utter falsehood that Openreach are independent from BT, they are a wholly owned subsidiary according to the last communication I had from them (which was to tell me my special deal had run out, and there was no special deal to replace it) special deal being their word for a contract, which isn't a valid contract because they don't stick to the prices in the contract, so when they develop some respect for their customers, I'll develop some respect for them.

[Wombat]

For FTTP, Openreach no longer take responsibility for the phone line. They just supply a fibre connection.
It's up to your ISP as to whether they provide an analogue phone adapter, or some sort of VOIP etc. And the ISP is responsible for any battery backup as required.

The ISP is BT, I have no choice of provider.  I have a fibre only connection.

[lissotriton]

Openreach FTTP is available from some other ISPs.
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/fttp-providers
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/05/comparison-of-uk-isps-on-openreachs-fttp-broadband-network.html

[Wombat]

Hmm, unless things have changed drastically in recent months, that is definitely not true.  I'll go through the painful process of checking again, as BT have announced yet another price rise.  They even put the price up during my initial "guaranteed fixed price" honeymoon period.  Guaranteed fixed for 18 months, but it went up after less than 6 months.  I now pay far more for 52Mb than I did for 100 with Virgin, but BT were the only provider in 2018, and possibly still are.

The only 2 ISPs I tried directly (rather than by doing a "who can serve my area" search, said that Openreach refuse to release their FTTP networks to outside providers, citing their investment in the infrastructure.  Not even true, as it was funded by the EU and the Welsh Govt, because Openreach had failed to honour the agreement to provide the service.

[Wombat]

Nope, they don't seem to have changed.  All the broadband checkers claim there is fibre broadband, but the 3 I actually followed through to see what they could offer, all said they couldn't.  Uswitch were actually about to swap me to Vodafone, but as I was doubtful, I checked directly with Vodafone (I'd be happy with them, as our mobiles are with them, and one data provider would be convenient) and quelle surprise, no service!  All the alleged offers, were at about half the price I'm currently paying, for at least double the speed.  I don't actually need more than the 52Mb I'm currently on, but the ever increasing cost is an issue (and they are utterly uncaring, lying bastards).

[Wombat]

And the switch off of the old system has started.  I've just got a letter telling me that it'll be switched off in 4 weeks.  They actually now admit that when there is a power cut, there is no phone system, which is progress of a perverse sort.  The letter did say I had the option of dumping the landline to save money, and I'd like to do that, as if there's a power cut, it doesn't work, so its not worth paying for.  They tell me I can go onto the website to do this.  Unfortunately, they are lying yet again, there is no option for this!

Mrs W endured an hour long phone call with them yesterday, to get them to correct the non-existent address on said letter.  The account was set up with the correct address, yet somehow they send me some communications with the correct address, and some with this non-existent one, which seems to cause them even more confusion.  They (Openreach in this case) spent the last few months completely missing the point of an enquiry I made to them, to ask if there were other providers using their infrastructure, as I'd like to change from BT.  They have sent me 5 pointless emails saying they are struggling to assess what capacity there is in our local box, completely missing the point that I am already connected to that fibre box, I just want to change provider.

The notice letter also didn't seem to grasp that some people already don't have copper wire connections, and are on fibre already.  They will be sending me a home hub 2, apparently, which will be amusing as I've already got an "ultrafast" smart hub 2. I'm supposed to plug my phone into one of the sockets on said hub.  So what am I supposed to do with the data cable that was already plugged into that socket?  There are only 3 outputs on the measly thing as it is.

I have no idea what will happen to my 95 year old mum, with just an olde worlde phone line, and a careline alarm box.  They seem to think that she needs to do this, and that to avoid losing service.  Er, no, BT are changing it, BT can do the bloody legwork, they're contracted to provide a service!

[rogerzilla]

My mother now has a digital landline.  There is a terrible echo on calls.

[rogerzilla]

This is all heavily leaning in the direction of satellite (either a phone, or something like Starlink) as a backup connectivity option - bypassing the local infrastructure entirely.

There's a solid argument for people living in the sticks to have a ham radio licence to go with that wood-burner, I reckon.

And yes, solar inverters capable of island mode with appropriate transfer switch.

Having lived outside a fairly remote village we had contingency with Camping Gaz lamps a stove - and a small Honda generator that connected to the house wiring with a pretty crude method - a cable with a 13A plug on both ends - you just connected to the generator and a socket outlet (having flipped the fuse breaker to off for that ring main) - looking back it probably wasn't wise, but it did work to power lights.

Where my parents used to live, a lot of the neighbours had generators.  I was there during a long powercut after a thunderstorm, and both the noise and the fumes were atrocious.  The houses were hundreds of yards apart but small generators are filthy things.

[Kim]

My mother now has a digital landline.  There is a terrible echo on calls.

Echo cancelling is hard and lots of systems seem to be terrible at it.

[pcolbeck]

ps what confuses me is the unavailable* BT solution only seems to power the FTTP white box thingy, so why were they offering that, when the BT router is powered separately!?

Perhaps the fibre ONT is able to pass through power to the router? It could do this using Power Over Ethernet. Though doesn't seem to mention this in the specifications.
Note it seems there are 2 different versions of the Smart Hub 2 - one for non-FTTP (with 4 yellow ethernet ports) and one for FTTP (3 yellow ports plus one red WAN port). And it seems you need a matching battery backup. Maybe only the FTTP version supports PoE?

Could test it by unplugging it and see what happens.

I'm pretty sure PoE only works for copper-cabled ethernet.

Correct. There is no such thing as power over fibre. PoE is a daft name really as its power over copper Ethernet cable not power over the Ethernet link layer protocol.

[lissotriton]

ps what confuses me is the unavailable* BT solution only seems to power the FTTP white box thingy, so why were they offering that, when the BT router is powered separately!?

Perhaps the fibre ONT is able to pass through power to the router? It could do this using Power Over Ethernet. Though doesn't seem to mention this in the specifications.
Note it seems there are 2 different versions of the Smart Hub 2 - one for non-FTTP (with 4 yellow ethernet ports) and one for FTTP (3 yellow ports plus one red WAN port). And it seems you need a matching battery backup. Maybe only the FTTP version supports PoE?

Could test it by unplugging it and see what happens.

I'm pretty sure PoE only works for copper-cabled ethernet.

Correct. There is no such thing as power over fibre. PoE is a daft name really as its power over copper Ethernet cable not power over the Ethernet link layer protocol.

And there is an ethernet cable from the ONT to the router.

[Kim]

I thought the ONT has a port for a telephone, so you should be able to make calls on that without the router?

In the real world it's prudent to have a decent UPS powering both (and whatever else you'd like to stay alive during a power cut), but BT don't care about that, only that you can make telephone calls for whatever period they think you should be able to make telephone calls for.

I seriously doubt the ONT has PoE support, and if it did, it would be more likely to be able to act as a PoE-powered device (which is generally more useful), rather than as a PoE source.

[rafletcher]

Where my parents used to live, a lot of the neighbours had generators.  I was there during a long powercut after a thunderstorm, and both the noise and the fumes were atrocious.  The houses were hundreds of yards apart but small generators are filthy things.

Not all are, certainly the one (Honda I think) that powers the local market cheese wagon is quite and unobtrusive.

[rogerzilla]

I suspect some of these were made by Herr Otto himself and kept the lights on during two world wars.

[lissotriton]

I thought the ONT has a port for a telephone, so you should be able to make calls on that without the router?

They used to, but seems the newer models don't. So you need a BT Smart Hub (or some other router) to plug in a phone.

I seriously doubt the ONT has PoE support, and if it did, it would be more likely to be able to act as a PoE-powered device (which is generally more useful), rather than as a PoE source.

Yes, PoE does seem unlikely. But BT claim a phone plugged into the Smart Hub will still work, so must be getting power somehow.

[Kim]

Let's not overlook the "our-favourite-telco are talking bollocks" option...

[Wombat]

Sadly even having a UPS won't sort the "no calls when there is a power cut" issue, as the little green box up the road dies anyway, so the whole system doesn't work.  My own modem thingy (ONT?) does have the backup power supply, and the system still died immediately.  Its not the mains powered phones (I have a reserve standard phone I can plug in) as if they are dead, the phone just appears to ring, from a caller's perspective, but this time when I phoned home I got a "cannot connect" message.

I think our least favourite telco is indeed talking bollocks, but that's par for the course...  Mrs W will engage them on the phone on Tuesday, to attempt to ditch the landline.  I struggle with talking to them, as my hearing is poor, and BT seem to use very poor quality equipment in their callcentres, and people whose English is poor and heavily accented, making the struggle worse for me.  I notice they claim to have their callcentres in UK and Ireland, this change (if its true) must be very recent.  My attempts to resolve issues with them via their online chat have not always worked, because they tend to say "Oh, I can't deal with that, we'll get an advisor to phone you".

[Kim]

It's exactly this sort of reason that I use AAISP.  You can get through to someone who is  a) in Bracknell  b) wise to the ways of Openreach  and c) knows at least two programming languages  using civilised communication methods like IRC, email and SMS (this used to be a game-changer if you were profoundly deaf with a broken phone line).  Or phone, if you like, but they won't insist.

[grams]

My mother now has a digital landline.  There is a terrible echo on calls.

Every landline has been digital for several decades now. It's just the box that converts to analog was previously in the local exchange rather than your house.

[Kim]

My mother now has a digital landline.  There is a terrible echo on calls.

Every landline has been digital for several decades now. It's just the box that converts to analog was previously in the local exchange rather than your house.

And did echo cancellation properly.

[fruitcake]

In the OP's situation, I would be looking at sat phones. They're expensive kit, but they're so useful that they may hold their value as an investment. Sat phones work anywhere. This is the technology aid workers carry when they're visiting war zones and earthquake zones, since they require no local infrastructure. The big brand when I worked in the international aid field some 15 years ago was Thuraya. I believe other satellite systems are available.

[mark]

In the OP's situation, I would be looking at sat phones. They're expensive kit, but they're so useful that they may hold their value as an investment. Sat phones work anywhere. This is the technology aid workers carry when they're visiting war zones and earthquake zones, since they require no local infrastructure. The big brand when I worked in the international aid field some 15 years ago was Thuraya. I believe other satellite systems are available.

A lot of personal locator beacons (Garmin inReach, SPOT, etc.) offer satellite text messaging as well as contacting emergency services when needed. Texting isn't nearly as convenient as talking but I'm going to guess that the locator device and a subscription cost less than a satellite phone and monthly service. They work almost anywhere, which I suspect is the case with satellite phones. Terrain and tree cover can have an effect on any transmitter in the frequency range used by small personal communication devices. The nice thing about the locator beacons is that they're small enough that you can stick one in your pocket any time you're working or playing in an area without phone coverage and want to be reachable or able to call for help.