Front ‘Dazzling’ light discussion – University project.

[AdamMotlock]

Hi guys,
Thanks to you guys for responding to my earlier posts,

I was hoping that we could have an open discussion on this thread about experiences you have had with 'dazzling' front lights from other cyclist’s lights coming towards you.

It has come to my attention from my research that although the new amazing really bright 2,000+ lumen lights are really, really good for cyclists who are travelling on dark roads and tracks etc... it can cause quite a dazzle to people approaching in the other direction and the full output is not always needed on a ride.

I know there are lights that are dimmable and have different settings (that you may press manually, during or at the beginning of the ride), but I think there may scope to improve on this system in a wide multitude of ways to make lights cleverer and automatic in response to the surrounding environment.

Any thoughts/ experiences and other information you wouldn't mind sharing I would be really appreciative if you would discuss this with me as I want to make sure I understand how you guys as potential users for such a product, feel about this!

(Can I just say please only contribute if you have something constructive to say (positive negative. Don’t just come on here to have a personal feud with me.)

Thanks guys, and I look forward to talking with you all on this topic.

Adam. (BA Product Design student)
 

[matthew]

Adam

Now there is a sensible question, either requireing a dip beam / main beam type switch or a better lens on the lamp to focus the light in the useful places with limitted spil into other areas for visibility.

Somewhere in the Knowledge section will be a comparative test is controled and replicated conditions of a number of lights undertaken ~18 months or 2 years ago. This showed that the dazzling issue can be resolved by careful design without needing the extra switching.

Personally I have three differenct lights on my three bikes, two are hub dynamo driven and have one setting, they are good enough for dark roads and far better than the 10+ year old technology pre LEDs however I do not worry about them being dazzling.

The third is a hope vision 2, normally used on flash during dusk until I can persieve the flashing on the road when it gets switched to constant. The hope has multiple level settings and only foes onto 3 or 4 on unlit country roads when I then need to shade it from oncoming drivers.

[marcusjb]

You can put all the clever buttons or whatever you want on lights - half the battle is always going to be the installation of them.  The amount of riders you see you think that a light pointing up at 45 degrees is the right thing to do!

These super-bright lights with beam shapes that are not suitable for the road are an issue - I mostly don't notice when in London, but now it's dark earlier and I am doing laps in (very unlit) Richmond Park several evenings a week, some of them are unbelievable.  I am sure some of it is down to poor setup from the user (pointing them right and up), but much of it is to do with beam shape.

[clarion]

Beam shape and lens design (i.e. diffusion where necessary).

A sensible and focussed (sorry!) question, which should garner some knowledgeable responses.  As mentioned, members of ths forum did some independent testing of various lighting set ups.

[Biggsy]

I know there are lights that are dimmable and have different settings (that you may press manually, during or at the beginning of the ride), but I think there may scope to improve on this system in a wide multitude of ways to make lights cleverer and automatic in response to the surrounding environment.

Automatic brightness adjustment could be something for you to work on.  (Note. It would need to incorporate a delay to cope with momentary changes).  Beam shape is the main factor, though, when it comes to dazzling others.  There is certainly room in the market for many more front cycle lights with a "dipped" beam shape.  But the cut off should not be as harsh as the Ixon IQ's, especially if the light is to be mounted at handlebar height.

Once again, I believe evolution rather than revolution is the best way to proceed.  That may be unexciting to design students, but it's best for cyclists to have lights that are improved in all the important ways rather than having more whacky gimmicks come and go.

The ergonomics of switches is one thing where there could be a lot of improvement at the moment.  Try inventing and incorporating switches that are easy and comfortable to use deliberately, hard to use accidentally, waterproof, and yet not terribly costly.  There's a genuine challenge for you that would be really useful for us.  I bet you think that's boring, though. 

[Guy]

To this:

The ergonomics of switches is one thing where there could be a lot of improvement at the moment.  Try inventing and incorporating switches that are easy and comfortable to use deliberately, hard to use accidentally, waterproof, and yet not terribly costly.  There's a genuine challenge for you that would be really useful for us.

I would like to add:

Please also make the switches easy to use while wearing gloves. The switch on my new front light (RSP Nebula) requires glove removal to occur before it can be switched on/off or from constant to flashing mode.

[vorsprung]

You can put all the clever buttons or whatever you want on lights - half the battle is always going to be the installation of them.  The amount of riders you see you think that a light pointing up at 45 degrees is the right thing to do!

These super-bright lights with beam shapes that are not suitable for the road are an issue - I mostly don't notice when in London, but now it's dark earlier and I am doing laps in (very unlit) Richmond Park several evenings a week, some of them are unbelievable.  I am sure some of it is down to poor setup from the user (pointing them right and up), but much of it is to do with beam shape.

Marcus is dead right

The B&M generator lights ( such as the Cyo ) have a long, flat, square beam pattern which puts most of the light on the road
A typical offroad light has a circular beam

When riding with these two types of light down a country road the first difference you notice is that you can see the trees with the offroad light
This is because a lot of the light is going up and away from the road
This will also go more in the eyes of other road users

With a road light beam pattern all of the light goes on the road.  Although the B&M lights aren't quite as bright in terms of Lumens they are better at lighting up the road as there is more light energy directed there

As Marcus implies, the unsuitable offroad lights can be used on the road by angling them downwards quite aggressively

There is quite a long discussion of blinding by bike lights here http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests/verlichting/stvzo/index_en.html apparently it is illegal in the Netherlands

ps. no personal feud but again this is a problem that is already understood and solved!  I hope your project does not have to be novel!

[clarion]

Fitting is one of the keys to successful lighting.  Better - stronger yet more adaptable - bracket design would help, as would some way of 'levelling' the unit (which of course doesn't always mean having it level), such as an indicator line on the side integrated into the design, which should be horizontal when correctly installed.

[Woofage]

Fitting is one of the keys to successful lighting.  Better - stronger yet more adaptable - bracket design would help, as would some way of 'levelling' the unit (which of course doesn't always mean having it level), such as an indicator line on the side integrated into the design, which should be horizontal when correctly installed.

Small spirit level in the top? Cheap and reliable.

[Regulator]

I find teh dazzling lights of cars (particularly larger cars and 4x4s) far more of an issue that misaligned cycle lights - and that's both as a cyclist and a driver.

[Ian H]

An asymmetric beam is best achieved by means of a shaped reflector. The LED points back at the reflector, not forwards.

[Ian H]

Like this.

[Woofage]

I find teh dazzling lights of cars (particularly larger cars and 4x4s) far more of an issue that misaligned cycle lights - and that's both as a cyclist and a driver.

I would agree with you there. A couple of years ago I recall flashing my main beam at an oncoming car thinking the driver had his full beam on. He did nothing so I repeated. He then put his main beam on to show me - zOMG I thought my retinas were being melted away . Completely unnecessary, dangerous and antisocial lighting scheme. FTR, it was an Audi

[red marley]

You may wish to look at the design of the Busch and Muller Luxos IQ2 (see this thread for some details, opinions and reviews). German law on bicycle lighting might also provide some useful context.

Being a dynamo powered light, it can vary its performance according to speed. It has two sets of LEDs, one indirectly reflected as described by Ian H above, the other a bank of direct LEDs. The angles of these two sets effectively give a dipped and undipped version. At low speeds, a brighter but more strongly dipped light is activated. As speed increases the undipped lights gradually increase their output. This gives a continuous change between the two beam patterns (although there is a separate button activation to manually override this too).

You can see both light sources here:



It doesn't completely solve the dazzling light problem (although both beam patterns are asymmetric and much more friendly than off-road lights), but it does provide an interesting solution to optimising light performance for different conditions.

[Polar Bear]

As outlined above, I think B&M have largely solved the anti-dazzle question with well-designed optics and reflectors.   One big factor though in any light is the actual mounting.   The headlights in cars are supposed to be adjusted not to dazzle but even modern and quite new cars seem to have badly adjusted lights.   

I reckon to solve this you need a universal mounting fitted at the factory in a way that it cannot be moved and then for the lights to have the universal mounting so that when attached they are perfectly positioned.   Add to this a system with a built in dynamo and lights that 'click' and 'lock' into place connecting as they click into place, and you have good lighting, properly positioned and always with power*.

Having a universal mounting system does not prevent competition if the mount is adopted universally in the same way for instance usb is a standard on computers and phones, and the 3 pin plug is a standard on domestic appliances.   The system has to be quick and easy to use but also allow for the lights to be 'locked' in place to avoid casual theft.   This locking process must be very easy and quick for the rightful owner to use for absolute convenience.

Oh, the final hurdle is for this lighting to become legally mandated and thus supplied with all new bicycles and bicycle frames.   

*dynamo, wiring and connector failures not withstanding   

[mattc]

It's only been solved for dynamo lights (I think). Battery versions seem to cost more and/or be much crappier. I know, I know ... everyone should have dyno-hubs! But not everyone does.

And I'd rather have a 'main beam' option, with a well-designed switch (see several earlier posts). This works perfectly in cars, it's been tested for decades and everyone seems happy with it - and most drivers seem to understand when/how to use it!

I tend to use 2 lights instead - but this is crap for commuting or trips where security is an issue.

[Exit Stage Left]

An excellent case study is provided by the Mersey Roads 24 Hour. Powerful lights are used, frequently attached upside down to keep the tops of the bars clear. I've got footage of lights completely overpowering the lens of a camcorder. There are over 90 bikes available in all stages of the day and night, with varying background lighting.

[De Sisti]

Adam,


Are we to expect a new anti-dazzle cycle lamp from you?

[Polar Bear]

Optics and reflectors are not limited to dynamo setups though.   It is also feasible to have a twin head unit with a dip and a main beam.   On dynamo setups you'd probably want one or the other but on battery systems you could choose both with the power available, albeit limited by battery life.

The key though is the positioning of the lights - right every time, easy on / easy off.   A universal mounting system need not limit the bike to a dynamo system if battery light manufacturers adopted the same mounting system.

[mattc]

An excellent case study is provided by the Mersey Roads 24 Hour. Powerful lights are used, frequently attached upside down to keep the tops of the bars clear. I've got footage of lights completely overpowering the lens of a camcorder. There are over 90 bikes available in all stages of the day and night, with varying background lighting.

Are you suggesting that some of the riders are less than considerate of other road users (and competitors)? 

[AdamMotlock]

Hi guys!!

Thanks for all the constructive comments so far!

I have read all of them and gathered some really interesting points from them which will define tally be taken into account,

what I gather so far (from you guys and other research) is that actually lights at the minute are only 'good' for one type of cycling as different types of cycling have different lighting requirements.. for example mountain biking needs a circular wide spread beam/lens to light up areas and road cycling/ commuting needs a flatter/ squarer beam/lens to focus more on the road. Lights for cyclists who need both of these options on their ride doesn't not exist and they often need to buy two lights, one for each OR make do... and define tally do not exist where they automatically take surroundings into consideration to automatically adjust for on-coming vehicles/pedestrians to reduce 'dazzle' to either you (off signs) or the oncoming traffic.

Looking forward to hearing more guys! Thanks,

Adam

(maybe DeSisti, although will improve on existing products)

[Exit Stage Left]

An excellent case study is provided by the Mersey Roads 24 Hour. Powerful lights are used, frequently attached upside down to keep the tops of the bars clear. I've got footage of lights completely overpowering the lens of a camcorder. There are over 90 bikes available in all stages of the day and night, with varying background lighting.

Are you suggesting that some of the riders are less than considerate of other road users (and competitors)? 

It's just a very good sample, some of the lighting is dismal, some searingly bright.

If you station yourself at Espley you can get subjective impressions from the helpers, they can probably give you a scale from 1 to 5, which is good for projects. You can easily find the make of light and type of fitment.

[Biggsy]

Different bikes need different angles, and in the case of see-by front lights, faster (or slower-reacting) cyclists like the spot to be further ahead than slower ones.  I certainly would not buy any cycle light that I couldn't set the angle of myself.

[Basil]

Different bikes need different angles, and in the case of see-by front lights, faster (or slower-reacting) cyclists like the spot to be further ahead than slower ones.  I certainly would not buy any cycle light that I couldn't set the angle of myself.

+1

[Plug1n]

Well, the UK Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations say that all road users MUST NOT dazzle other road users.  Hence cars should not drive with full beam in the face of oncoming traffic.  But also cyclists should not project powerful lights towards others.  That is the law but it is not well enforced.

I believe that the German standard (STVZO?) requires that bicycle lights must not put out light above the horizontal.  So any lights designed for the German market should not dazzle.  Good examples are any B&M (by lenses) and the Philips LED bicycle lights by reflectors.