Etiquette of promoting cyclosportives

[Hot Flatus]

Is all this really about a dislike of sportives being promoted on this forum with no other engagement within the forum, or is an attempt (by some) to deny publicity to rivals?

[clarion]

I don't mind the advertising at all.

So long as the person is a genuine member of the forum, and not just a spammer.

[DanialW]

I don't mind the advertising at all.

So long as the person is a genuine member of the forum, and not just a spammer.

Indeed. And a genuine member of the forum would no doubt exercise discretion - group pressure and all that.

I don't there are actually any shades of grey here. The two posters who annoy me are pretty blatant in what they do, crystal clear in their motives, and without doubt do not contribute other than to advertise.

"Profit" is a wriggly concept. (Speaking personally) all being well, LEL will make a decent profit. I don't know is ACP publish accounts, so I don't know how much money the PBP makes. My own audax events usually make enough for me to take out my helpers for a fancypants dinner, but I've also sometimes made a loss. But even if an event makes no money, it's arguable that the profit comes through self- or peer-validation. The motive driving the organiser will not always be clear, so I suspect that a distinction between 'commercial' and 'non-commercial' is a bit of red herring. What it's about is what contributors give and take, and how that affects the nature of the forum.

If you read bikeradar's audax and cyclosportive forum, it's almost a mirror-image of here. They talk mainly about sportives, with the odd thread about an audax. Yet they have had precisely the same debate as us about spamming the board. It's not particular to here, and the nature of our disciplines isn't really the point.

[vorsprung]

I don't mind the advertising at all.

So long as the person is a genuine member of the forum, and not just a spammer.

There is a difference between "spamming" and just putting a message up saying that an event is on

How are we going to decide who is a "genuine" member of the forum? Have a post limit?  Seems a bit much

[ian_oli]

I'd rather Sportives and Audaxes share one thread. After all the similarity is pretty great and any Sportives that gain traction on this board tend to do so because they have something that makes them interesting to audaxers. Also due to work circumstances my freedom to ride at weekends is now more restricted and I might consider a sportive when previously I would not.

The crime of Alistair TR, surely, is that he keeps banging on. Perhaps a small note to organisers as a sticky or in the sign-up T&Cs along the lines of "Only post more than once or twice for any event if it generates questions or a discussion or you need to broadcast a major change to people such as a move of date or venue. Failing to observe this rule may get you banned." As an organiser myself and someone who has posted details of a couple of European rides I have had an email about, I 'd find this entirely reasonable -  better than using post count as a test of suitability to plug a ride, which would ensure some interesting rides never get the attention of the forum, because they're not run by a usual suspect.


PS I have just realised I will be posting this with my bottom comment or whatever you call it plugging out of date events  

[Euan Uzami]

So are there no cases here when people advertise an audax who rarely contribute elsewhere?

If so (as I suspect), and they didn't get criticised (as I also suspect), then that proves it is about profit. I don't know any specific examples so I may be wrong however.

[red marley]

I do mind advertising and would rather see it not appear or confined to clear sub-boards meant for the purpose. Lack of advertising and blatant commercial interest was one of the things that attracted me to ACF and YACF.

I think it is possible to distinguish between posters who end up promoting an event because they have judged the other members would appreciate the knowledge and that it forms part of their other contributions to the forum, from those whose main reason for being here is to promote their events.

We'd be able to do that if we were in a pub together, so why not online?

[Ray 6701]

This reminds me, it must be nearly time for me to promote the Tamworth CC September audax events  

[border-rider]

We'd be able to do that if we were in a pub together, so why not online?

Because it's easier to develop a woolly consensus IRL than using writing, I suspect.    You can see in this thread and previous ones that attempts to define what the problem actually is  - or even if there is one  - and what we could or should do about it don't really seem to attract a single consensus. 

[Exit Stage Left]

I was talking to a fellow rider at the club 10 last night. She had ridden 'The Dragon' in the company of other amputees who had artificial limbs. The size of the event makes it possible for communities of like minded or bodied folk to ride together.
She valued the fact that there was a charity partner, which added an extra bit of 'feel good factor'.
I kid myself that I don't ride Sportives, but the satisfaction I get from riding in big groups at the Semaine Federale and PBP is just the same as Sportives. But I'm spending a lot more to do those events, even though they are volunteer served.

[ian_oli]

PS I have just realised I will be posting this with my bottom comment or whatever you call it plugging out of date events   

   

No more - current blatant plug added.

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[Euan Uzami]

"...an event because they have judged the other members would appreciate the knowledge... "

If we're talking most of the other members, or a sizeable proportion of the other members, then that pretty much restricts it to audaxes only.

But I think sportive promoters feel it ok to advertise here simply because they believe that there will be some people, however much a minority they are, that would appreciate the knowledge.  As far as they're concerned, if their post draws in just one person to ride their event, then since pixels don't cost, and anyone not interested can simply not read it, then it's been worth it. So given that, and because there isn't (currently) a rule saying they shouldn't, we can't really blame them for doing so.

[Manotea]

There is a risk that a 'commercial events' board will turn into a 'sin bin' whilst having a separate sportives board will encourage a 'them and us' mentality.

An alternate solution is to shuffle the sportives into the 'rides' forum where events such as the MacRides, FNRs, DunRun reside. 

Elsewise my preference has already been expressed upthread.

 

[Jaded]

One interesting factor with a number of the posts in question is that there are no replies from the membership indicating that they are riding, or asking (sensible) questions. Surely that must indicate that there isn't a lot of interest for them here, or that people are too scared to post, lest the entire Audaxing community of YACF points at them and laughs.

[Manotea]

One interesting factor with a number of the posts in question is that there are no replies from the membership indicating that they are riding, or asking (sensible) questions. Surely that must indicate that there isn't a lot of interest for them here, or that people are too scared to post, lest the entire Audaxing community of YACF points at them and laughs.

More the former than the latter I'd say, probably because YACF is seen as the realm of the AUK. Anyway, people who sleep in hedgerows and sup on cans of baked beans 'fresh from the tin' are in no position to point and laugh.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Is this an issue unique to audaxes and cyclosportives, or is it the same as any other potentially commercial area? This board does not exist in isolation from the rest of the forum. My take on it is this: If a regular poster uses this forum to sell a bike, that's fine. If an occasional poster does the same, also fine. Same with non-cycling items. But if someone uses the forum only for selling stuff, or is actually a bike dealer on the quiet, that's not really on - it's not in the spirit of YACF. The grey area arises when there is an occasional poster who is also completely upfront about their commercial motives. "Hi, I'm Bill, new on here. I ride time trials and do a bit of summer touring. I also buy and sell bikes on ebay. Right now I've got a... "

[Jaded]

At the moment I cant find any forum rules about 'advertising' things. Have I just not looked hard enough 

[clarion]

There is a risk that a 'commercial events' board will turn into a 'sin bin' whilst having a separate sportives board will encourage a 'them and us' mentality.

Very real risk, and I sense that there is a will to find a balance here

An alternate solution is to shuffle the sportives into the 'rides' forum where events such as the MacRides, FNRs, DunRun reside. 

Absolutely not.  Rides is mainly about more informal stuff that we organise between ourselves.  Sportives would be much more out of place there than here.

[Martin]

Absolutely not.  Rides is mainly about more informal stuff that we organise between ourselves.  Sportives would be much more out of place there than here.
[/quote]

there are a few rides which don't fit on the A/C board even though they are mass participation (IOW, Dun Run, London to- , Manchester to- etc)

[rogerzilla]

This forum is free to register, free to post messages and free to post as many messages as the member chooses to post.

This isn't Usenet, y'know.

[sbseven]

Sportive advertisting of this nature is mildly annoying but it is surely entitled to a place somewhere on this cycling forum? Unfortunately, it's current place is on a board dominated by Audax chat and is mostly irrelevant to that audience.

I'd be in favour of splitting Audax and Sportive into separate boards. I think it might actually help generate more Sportive related traffic and maybe create a new community of Sportive biased YACF members. Maybe nobody posts about Sportives much precisely because the A & CS board is so heavily biased towards Audax? The same in reverse seems to happen on BikeRadar and CycleChat...

[Manotea]

I rather agree with SB7 that any discussion of sportives is being drowned out by audax chat. It doesn't address the issue of  what to do about bland infomertial posts though, assuming anything can/need to be done.

[PizzaMan]

Personally don't mind a single post for information, but find keep bumping it to the top a bit off...

But it's hard to decide exactly where to draw the line. My take on this is it's not a big problem at the moment, while it like this it's manageable by friendly email/pm from a moderate warning the person not to use the forums in the wrong way, people can point out inappropriate posts to the moderates who would them make a judgment call (taking into account if the person it a proper active forum member).

If it becomes a problem or if people ignore the friendly message, then face the problem of exactly what the rules should be.

Also on personal perspective I don't like to many sub forums, don't have the time to go thought them all, in a single forum the most interesting posts tend to float tom the top...

[Alouicious]

This forum is free to register, free to post messages and free to post as many messages as the member chooses to post.

This isn't Usenet, y'know.

No, we don't want it to be 'Usenet'.

But the big BUT is... the ease of joining this forum is an open door to cycle event promoters to get a dozen posts on a new thread posted before anyone notices and interjects.

Alistair was merely doing what he saw possible.
Tarnishes the image of 'Tour rides' mind, which has made the whole plan back-fire on him.

Alistair, try a little less 'pressure selling' and you might get some cheerful replies.
As Pizzaman has just indicated.

[Manotea]

Personally don't mind a single post for information, but find keep bumping it to the top a bit off...

Alistair's problem was that on the one hand nobody was discussing the event(s) and on the other he was promoting a series of events not just one. The net effect was that he was bumping his own posts. Of his posts, ISTM the ones which were most interesting were those in which he was described the route and his own experience in his own words. That's the sort of thing that gets lapped up here. Reproducing the event handout is a real turn-off. Far better to simply provide a link and some entertaining prose will generate interest in finding out more.