Will Audax as we know it recover from this?

[Hot Flatus]

Latest seems to be that there is "growing evidence" that vaccination cuts transmission.   Some research suggests that two weeks after first dose of Modern/Pfizer people have 80% protection from infection, which presumeably means they cannot transmit.

That's where you are incorrect. You can still carry it around and spread it by talking loudly, heavy breathing etc. It's less likely, but it's still "quite" likely

If you can't get infected, how can you transmit?

You do, the virus sits in your nose and throat for a while, but because you have antibodies, it doesn't progress any further.
It's quite common for vaccinated people to then test positive, upon exposure to the virus. The vast majority of them will never develop any symptom, but the fact that they test positive means they are potentially spreaders

Perhaps you should share this with the CDC.  From what I can make out as a layman, they seem to disagree with you.

[frankly frankie]

When was free route introduced?

In answer to that question, the first season with 'advisory' routes was 2000.  Incidentally that change was instigated by an experienced Scottish randonneur.


For some people, an audax seems to be defined by its cafe stops, and a long event by its sleepover facilities.  Actually cycling doesn't seem to enter into it.

But surely audaxing lends itself as a socially-distanced activity, for solo or loosely-grouped cyclists.  PoP can be by GPS or phone app, TLC controls can be al fresco in suitable lay-bys, village greens, car parks.  (For every cafe or pub that's closed down in my area, 2 or 3 others have 'popped up' as street food enterprises.)  Hanging around for more than half-an-hour actively discouraged.  Starts can (and should) be staggered, and intermediate control timings abandoned.
Repeated loops should no longer be outlawed.  They may not be pretty, but whenever there are restrictions on travel, they are a practical option.
Long events may, regrettably, have to be restructured - a 600 being back-to-back 300s or 400/200 for example, putting the onus on the individual rider to sort out sleep accomodation between the two.

If you can't get infected, how can you transmit?

Is touching surfaces no longer a thing?  AIUI anyone (infected or not) can transmit by thoughtless rummaging among the fruit and veg.


Oh and by the way, this carbon vs steel thing is a total myth - I was randonneuring on a full-carbon bike in 1988, and I wasn't the only one, and there were no snarky comments.

[Hot Flatus]

It isn't a myth. I experienced it, both on audaxes and online on ACF.  That you didn't experience it does not negate the fact that I did. 

Is touching surfaces no longer a thing?  AIUI anyone (infected or not) can transmit by thoughtless rummaging among the fruit and veg.

The whole fomite thing is theatre really. We've gone from "wash your hands" as the only mitigating action to compulsory masks. It's airborne.

[Geriatricdolan]

Perhaps you should share this with the CDC.  From what I can make out as a layman, they seem to disagree with you.

Well, you got your info wrong. There is a press conference today at 5 PM, they might talk about that too, just watch it.

The vaccine is not an invisible barrier as it's often portarayed, it doesn't prevent a virus entering your airways...

[Hot Flatus]

No, I understood that the first time you said that.  But what you seem to not realise is that if a person does not get infected they are only able to shed the virus that went up their nose in the first place (ie not much)

The virus isnt replicating in their body and they aren't shedding huge quantities.

[Geriatricdolan]

No, I understood that the first time you said that.  But what you seem to not realise is that if a person does not get infected they are only able to shed the virus that went up their nose in the first place (ie not much)

The virus isnt replicating in their body and they aren't shedding huge quantities.

read

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00450-z

and if you can't be bothered, I quote some relevant bits:

The UK trial of the vaccine produced by the University of Oxford and AstraZeneca swabbed participants every week, and estimated a 49.3% reduction in asymptomatic infections among a subset of vaccinated participants compared with the unvaccinated group.


During the trial of Moderna's vaccine, produced in Boston, researchers swabbed all participants to see if they had any viral RNA. They saw a two-thirds drop in the number of asymptomatic infections among people who received the first shot of the two-dose vaccine, compared with those who received a placebo. But they tested people only twice, about a month apart, so might have missed infections.

[Hot Flatus]

I have the very distinct impression that you aren't fully understanding this discussion or the evidence you are citing. Either way, that is me out.

[Geriatricdolan]

I have the very distinct impression that you aren't fully understanding this discussion or the evidence you are citing. Either way, that is me out.

typical... 

[Hot Flatus]

Ok, last post to you on this. You were banging on about UNINFECTED people in your previous post. Then you posted a link about INFECTED people.  Get it yet?

[Geriatricdolan]

Ok, last post to you on this. You were banging on about UNINFECTED people in your previous post. Then you posted a link about INFECTED people.  Get it yet?

I never talked about uninfected people...

[Philip Whiteman]

As per usual on YACF, a thread has descended into over opinionated individuals spouting rubbish that is completely irrelevant to the original poster's question.

In answer to the question, I can only offer my personal event organising experience which is not representative of audax as a whole.

Over the past year many organisers understandably cancelled there events due to the Covid restrictions which either; (i) made events illegal, or; (ii) completely unfeasible when sporting events were still permitted.  This created a severe deficit of audaxes available.  My response was launch low-risk x-rated events. Something that I would have never previously contemplated.  It was a pleasure to discover how easy they were to organise, plan and cancel if necessary. 

The response was tremendous with riders booking places very quickly and happy to accept the adjustments required to ensure the x-rated event was AUK and Covid Reg compliant.  So for me x-rated has been a turning point and I will continue to develop and plan events.  Whether riders will remain equally happy to continue with x-rated events post pandemic is of course another question.

Whilst my normal mass hall based events were cancelled, I am planning a return to business as near normal as possible this summer.   The Kidderminster Killer is already three quarters full and it is clear that pent-up demand exists.  Control measures at the HQ such a Covid Officers may of course be necessary and the vaccination passports may also become a condition of entry subject to evolving government guidance.

There have been positives to from the pandemic that will provide a good legacy for audaxing.  AUK have become increasingly acceptant of electronic 'proofs of passage' for calendar events and are busy developing e-brevet phone apps.  When my riders tested the e-brevet last December, it was warmly welcomed even amongst the traditional fraternity.   

[Karla]

Is touching surfaces no longer a thing?  AIUI anyone (infected or not) can transmit by thoughtless rummaging among the fruit and veg.

Surface transmission hasn't been a thing since the end of last summer. The consensus view since then is that the virus isn't hardy enough to pass from an infected person to a surface and then onto an uninfected person, and then cultivate more viruses.

Nature article
Lancet letter

[Hot Flatus]

Is touching surfaces no longer a thing?  AIUI anyone (infected or not) can transmit by thoughtless rummaging among the fruit and veg.

Surface transmission hasn't been a thing since the end of last summer. The consensus view since then is that the virus isn't hardy enough to pass from an infected person to a surface and then onto an uninfected person, and then cultivate more viruses.

Nature article
Lancest letter

^ this

The evolution of the discussion of means of transmission has been fascinating. A really weird collision of science and politics, as well as science and science.

[Hot Flatus]

Ok, last post to you on this. You were banging on about UNINFECTED people in your previous post. Then you posted a link about INFECTED people.  Get it yet?

I never talked about uninfected people...

I'm afraid you did. If a virus has not replicated within you then you are not infected. A virus needs to introduce its genetic material into your cells and hijack the cell's internal machinery to make more virus particles.  This is what infection means, otherwise me having some viral RNA on my fingertip would constitute an 'infection', which clearly it does not.  Inhaling some virus and having it sit in your nose without entering your cells is not infection.

[FifeingEejit]

There have been positives to from the pandemic that will provide a good legacy for audaxing.  AUK have become increasingly acceptant of electronic 'proofs of passage' for calendar events and are busy developing e-brevet phone apps.  When my riders tested the e-brevet last December, it was warmly welcomed even amongst the traditional fraternity.

I think many of these changes would have eventually been forced anyway, the death of outdoor village cash machines and of the paper receipt would have been an existential problem eventually



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[Manotea]

... I can only offer my personal event organising experience which is not representative of audax as a whole.

My experience as an organiser...

I had 'Covid Secure' versions of long-running events scheduled for January and February (this was pre-Jan lockdown) as x-events with limited fields and validation by GPS, all of which was made clear on the event calendar listing.

When the Jan lockdown hit I arranged for them to be suspended rather than canceled, to run as allowable so as to facilitate a smooth pickup of events.

I had also - in November - contacted the eBrevet team with a view to using that as an alternative solution to raw GPS tracks, as reports to date had been very positive. This struck me as being an ideal time to trial the eBrevet outside of Perms (small field, backup to the primary method of validation, tech aware riders, etc.)

The eBrevet team had the events set up on EBrevet within 24 hours or so of first contact but said that permission would be needed from AUK.

I contacted AUK then and have since subsequently. I have had zero response from those responsible for such matters.

What has been put to me is that I am 'bending the rules' by offering validation by GPS in the first place.

NB1: for those that don't know, I am the DIY Regional Organiser for the SE and process 1000+ DIY Brevets with validation by GPS a year, so I have some experience in these matters

NB2: I've posted similar to this through the delegates section of the AUK Forum, which, again, for those that don't know, I personally implemented the AUK Forum whilst AUK General Secretary to provide a communications channel between Board, Delegates and Members, something which was deeply opposed by some other Board members at the time, and again have had no response from anybody with executive responsibility

My feeling is that that the Board's have done a reasonable job in managing the COVID situation overall, however, it has all been in the context of an application for AUK to be recognised as a 'National Governing Body'.

Whilst NGB status would be 'nice to have', I doubt anybody outside the Board cares. What I do feel is that any sense of the Board representing AUK as a 'club' run for its members and supporting Organisers in a progressive sense has rather been lost in a blizzard of unimaginative jobsworthness. There are plenty of examples to support this view.
 
Anyway, the current situation is that the listed events have now been canceled, and it's unlikely any of my other events will run this year.

[Davef]

Is touching surfaces no longer a thing?  AIUI anyone (infected or not) can transmit by thoughtless rummaging among the fruit and veg.

Surface transmission hasn't been a thing since the end of last summer. The consensus view since then is that the virus isn't hardy enough to pass from an infected person to a surface and then onto an uninfected person, and then cultivate more viruses.

Nature article
Lancest letter

^ this

The evolution of the discussion of means of transmission has been fascinating. A really weird collision of science and politics, as well as science and science.

The conclusion of the lancet letter is (my emphasis)...

“Our findings suggest that environmental contamination leading to SARS-CoV-2 transmission is unlikely to occur in real-life conditions, provided that standard cleaning procedures and precautions are enforced.”

[Geriatricdolan]

Ok, last post to you on this. You were banging on about UNINFECTED people in your previous post. Then you posted a link about INFECTED people.  Get it yet?

I never talked about uninfected people...

I'm afraid you did. If a virus has not replicated within you then you are not infected. A virus needs to introduce its genetic material into your cells and hijack the cell's internal machinery to make more virus particles.  This is what infection means, otherwise me having some viral RNA on my fingertip would constitute an 'infection', which clearly it does not.  Inhaling some virus and having it sit in your nose without entering your cells is not infection.

That is your definition of infection, which is rather clumsy and doesn't help anybody. It is generally accepted that you have been infected if you do test positive for the virus genetic material, either by means of PCR or lateral flow test. That's helpful, because there is an unambiguous way of finding out.
This is the only definition that matters, as you do need to test positive in order to be "infective" towards others AND to develop the disease.

[Geriatricdolan]

There have been positives to from the pandemic that will provide a good legacy for audaxing.  AUK have become increasingly acceptant of electronic 'proofs of passage' for calendar events and are busy developing e-brevet phone apps.  When my riders tested the e-brevet last December, it was warmly welcomed even amongst the traditional fraternity.

That is indeed a great legacy and opens up possibilities for more remote routes, where controls are not obvious and gets rid of the tedious info controls

[FifeingEejit]

Oh god this is going to turn into a I fo controls argument now

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[Geriatricdolan]

Oh god this is going to turn into a I fo controls argument now

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Ha ha... no, but would anyone miss them if they're gone?

[FifeingEejit]

Oh god this is going to turn into a I fo controls argument now

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Ha ha... no, but would anyone miss them if they're gone?

Various routes that are impossible without them or an appropriate replacement.

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[Chris S]

Oh god this is going to turn into a I fo controls argument now

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Ha ha... no, but would anyone miss them if they're gone?

Various routes that are impossible without them or an appropriate replacement.

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Blanket acceptance of a gps tracklog for an event, as a means of validation, would help those who don't mind carrying a GPS device and/or simply hate infos.

Even now, I can hear the can of worms being opened...

[postie]

Thats more then one can of worms chris!!!!!!

Here is what i am seeing locally,  riders are very keen to get audaxing again and very happy to go with the flow as regarding a return to normal, be it a new normal or the old one. But then audax club Portsmouth are generally a laid back bunch.
Big events may have to be smaller for a while, riding events in other countries many be  another problem for a bit ,but again it will return in time.

My thoughts for run my events this year is simple.
X-rated with a postal finish and next year bring back the hall start/finish with all the homemade food. Not having to worry about halls etc this year means if i have to cancel for any reason (a real possibility in 2021 )  its going to be straight forward .

[Geriatricdolan]

Fresh data, one dose only

Symptomatic disease -60%
hospitalisation   -80%

So we are not looking at anywhere near 95-99% which is needed to remove all restrictions.

In Chile, where 50% of the population have been vaccinated (pfizer + Sinovac), infections are rising rapidly... so that's not very promising