Yet Another Cycling Forum

Off Topic => The Pub => Topic started by: Duckfoot1606 on 20 December, 2018, 08:56:14 am

Title: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Duckfoot1606 on 20 December, 2018, 08:56:14 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-46623754

Spare a thought for the thousands of people whose getaway plans have been disrupted by the actions of an idiot or two

Unbelievable

A
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Hot Flatus on 20 December, 2018, 09:09:59 am
Depends.

Maybe it was deliberate. In which case, not stupid at all.
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Wowbagger on 20 December, 2018, 09:12:06 am
I may be assuming too much too quickly about the motives of the drone operators, but I expect that a lot more airport disruption will be on the cards as Extinction Rebellion really takes off (if you'll pardon the pun).

Governments have done nothing to tackle the causes of climate change and people are taking the law into their own hands.

Whilst awaiting further developments, it might be worth considering putting this in POBI.
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Ham on 20 December, 2018, 09:13:02 am
Two drones, flown in sequence suggests more than stupidity and selfishness
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 20 December, 2018, 09:21:56 am
As Flatus says, a simple and cheap way of achieving an aim. One report I heard stated there was a drone up at 7.
I doubt it is for shits and giggles.
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ElyDave on 20 December, 2018, 09:29:05 am
That may be exactly what it's for, just because it seems to be ordered, doesn't make it have a purpose other than some malicious prank or similar.

We know nothing other than that drones have been flown multiple times.  Anything else is just supposition.
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: fuaran on 20 December, 2018, 09:40:37 am
After a couple of reported sightings, any lights in the sky will become suspicious.
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Aunt Maud on 20 December, 2018, 09:44:03 am
After a couple of reported sightings, any lights in the sky will become suspicious.

That means you as well as the bloke with the big sack, E.T.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rogerzilla on 20 December, 2018, 09:58:28 am
I understand why the police can't shoot them down with firearms, but spent air rifle pellets are not particularly dangerous.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 December, 2018, 10:02:57 am
A plummeting dead drone might be dangerous for anyone below though.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 20 December, 2018, 10:14:41 am
I understand why the police can't shoot them down with firearms, but spent air rifle pellets are not particularly dangerous.
That’s not entirely true, which is why you can’t shoot them into the air with impunity. From an risk analysis POV it’s highly unlikely that a shot fired into the air will actually hit someone, but the amount of energy the projectile has if it does hit someone can only be calculated with lots of complex maths1 and a shed load of assumption. Who it hits, and where it hits them will also be a major element in the outcome.

1. Ok, not that complex, but lots of assumptions if it’s to be calculated in advance.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 20 December, 2018, 10:25:28 am
I thought they had nets fired from cannons to trap drones.

Or did I see that on Tomorrow’s World.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Pingu on 20 December, 2018, 10:26:56 am
Or eagles or something.


ETA: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-35750816/eagles-trained-to-take-down-drones
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Ham on 20 December, 2018, 10:28:30 am
Frickin' lasers, it's the only way to go.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Feanor on 20 December, 2018, 10:30:33 am
EMP weapon.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: T42 on 20 December, 2018, 11:03:07 am
Going to be a run on these things then:

(https://www.lecyclo.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/gilet-de-securite-enfant-a-velo-haute-visibilite-vert-wowow_full.jpg)

(that's green, in case your eyes/screen are a wee bit phunny. MrsT would likely see it as blue.)
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rafletcher on 20 December, 2018, 11:22:48 am
I may be assuming too much too quickly about the motives of the drone operators, but I expect that a lot more airport disruption will be on the cards as Extinction Rebellion really takes off (if you'll pardon the pun).

Governments have done nothing to tackle the causes of climate change and people are taking the law into their own hands.

Whilst awaiting further developments, it might be worth considering putting this in POBI.

It seems the Police agree with you..

"Sussex Police said it was not terror-related but a "deliberate act" of disruption."

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 20 December, 2018, 11:52:33 am
I've got two of my fitters flying from Gatwick to Munich at 06:20 tomorrow.
With nearly 15 hours of nothing flying in or out of Gatwick, somehow I cannot see their flight leaving on time - or at all if the drones are still present.
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rogerzilla on 20 December, 2018, 12:08:45 pm
I may be assuming too much too quickly about the motives of the drone operators, but I expect that a lot more airport disruption will be on the cards as Extinction Rebellion really takes off (if you'll pardon the pun).

Governments have done nothing to tackle the causes of climate change and people are taking the law into their own hands.

Whilst awaiting further developments, it might be worth considering putting this in POBI.

It seems the Police agree with you..

"Sussex Police said it was not terror-related but a "deliberate act" of disruption."
It won't help their cause.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rafletcher on 20 December, 2018, 12:22:40 pm
No, I don't think it will, but then neither do I think they care about that, it's all about disruption and publicity - there being no such thing as bad publicity apparently.
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: mattc on 20 December, 2018, 12:26:26 pm
It seems the Police agree with you..

"Sussex Police said it was not terror-related but a "deliberate act" of disruption."

It's an interesting distinction. I suppose terrorism really has to involve violence or the threat of violence to qualify. What about motivations?

But if I were running the Peoples Front of Judea (or similar), I'd say this drone stunt would get me more publicity, and cost UK Plc a lot more money, than say blowing up someone's car when no one is around. And would probably cause UK Plc to expend a lot more cash/manpower to prevent recurrence.

/ramble
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: bludger on 20 December, 2018, 12:28:53 pm
Extinction are holocentric. There is no committee at the top sanctioning 'official' actions. This has its ups and downs; on one hand it doesn't give a bunch of committee bashers a load of bureaucratic power, on the other it is more or less inevitable that something overly risky will be done in the name of the brand.

In any case this would be a really moronic act as not even the darkest of greenies would want to be associated with blowing up a plane of 100 holidaymakers to make a protest.

If it were a group of Extinction activists we'd probably know about it by now. Edit; they have denied involvement. https://mobile.twitter.com/ExtinctionR/status/1075720892838236160

To be fair to Extinction I am on their side. It is completely bonkers that a fuel guzzling and lung-rotting jumbo jet is cheaper to get to the country next door than the train and ferry.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 20 December, 2018, 12:29:43 pm
Can you imagine the disruption caused if you were to do it at three or four major airports?
So you've  reduced the number of places you can divert flights to.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Steph on 20 December, 2018, 12:52:12 pm
Sitting there now. Nothing moving.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: trekker12 on 20 December, 2018, 12:53:41 pm
Or eagles or something.


ETA: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-35750816/eagles-trained-to-take-down-drones

According to those in the know over at the PPRuNe (Professional Pilots Rumour Network) forum, the experiment was terminated and the BBC article is somewhat out of date. I couldn't see a link on PPRuNe to confirm this though
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Chris S on 20 December, 2018, 12:55:55 pm
I'm surprised it's taken this long for the loons to realise just how cheaply and effectively you can totally fuck things up this way. The range on modern drones (easily 5km, maybe even 10km) is such that you're never going to get caught; massive disruption, no need to die, get away scot free - an anarchists dream.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ElyDave on 20 December, 2018, 01:00:38 pm
There are other things one could do, not quite as simple, that would have a far greater impact on the hydrocarbon economy, but not as quickly and without the publicity.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 20 December, 2018, 01:04:22 pm
I'm surprised it's taken this long for the loons to realise just how cheaply and effectively you can totally fuck things up this way. The range on modern drones (easily 5km, maybe even 10km) is such that you're never going to get caught; massive disruption, no need to die, get away scot free - an anarchists dream.

With a decent budget and a bit of fettling you could make the drones completely autonomous and attack multiple airports simultaneously while lying low somewhere with no extradition treaty...

I think the only reason the actual terrorists haven't bothered is because they have a bizarre tradition of avoiding acts that are extremely disruptive and even potentially deadly, but insufficiently terrifying.

I'm guessing this one's either environmental protesters with an inadequate PR department, or oiks doing it for the lols.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 December, 2018, 01:06:37 pm
Has anyone actually brought down a plane with a domestic drone yet, either accidentally or deliberately?
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Wowbagger on 20 December, 2018, 01:10:50 pm

It won't help their cause.

That depends on how you identify their cause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFkQSGyeCWg

This lass is absolutely right. When the stakes are that high (and they are), anything goes.

A longer version of her speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAmmUIEsN9A
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 20 December, 2018, 01:13:22 pm
I may be assuming too much too quickly about the motives of the drone operators, but I expect that a lot more airport disruption will be on the cards as Extinction Rebellion really takes off (if you'll pardon the pun).

Governments have done nothing to tackle the causes of climate change and people are taking the law into their own hands.

Whilst awaiting further developments, it might be worth considering putting this in POBI.

It seems the Police agree with you..

"Sussex Police said it was not terror-related but a "deliberate act" of disruption."
It won't help their cause.

Do Sussex Police have history doing this?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 20 December, 2018, 01:27:02 pm
Has anyone actually brought down a plane with a domestic drone yet, either accidentally or deliberately?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UAV-related_events#Verified_aircraft_collisions

A handful of incidents, none of which brought down the aircraft, and plenty of near-misses.  I'm sure the effects of a drone collision are similar to a single large bird strike, in that in the absence of extremely bad luck the plane is likely to be able to make an emergency landing.

The thing that makes bird strikes really dangerous is when they come in flocks and damage multiple important bits of plane at the same time.  Doing that with drones would be technically challenging and perhaps prohibitively expensive...

Of course, this proves you don't need to have a collision if your intent is merely to cause disruption...
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: T42 on 20 December, 2018, 01:28:43 pm
Extinction are holocentric.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocentric
Quote
Holocentric is a philosophical position which focuses on solutions as the outcome of human agency and on critical thinking.
 
Sounds like engineering.

Quote
...
...
As the community becomes more effective in the process of dialog, it may become more self-aware, and this ‘systemic’ heightening of awareness may lead to additional emergent properties which in turn may further increase the overall level of understanding and quality of the community response.
 
Neural network?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 December, 2018, 01:34:16 pm
Of course, this proves you don't need to have a collision if your intent is merely to cause disruption...
You don't even need a drone, a well trained flock of pigeons would do it! How long till pigeon racing attracts the attention of anti-terror cops?!
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: trekker12 on 20 December, 2018, 01:35:39 pm
Has anyone actually brought down a plane with a domestic drone yet, either accidentally or deliberately?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UAV-related_events#Verified_aircraft_collisions

A handful of incidents, none of which brought down the aircraft, and plenty of near-misses.  I'm sure the effects of a drone collision are similar to a single large bird strike, in that in the absence of extremely bad luck the plane is likely to be able to make an emergency landing.

The thing that makes bird strikes really dangerous is when they come in flocks and damage multiple important bits of plane at the same time.  Doing that with drones would be technically challenging and perhaps prohibitively expensive...

Of course, this proves you don't need to have a collision if your intent is merely to cause disruption...

Most high profile example is the Miracle on the Hudson - if any of you have watched the film Sully
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Wowbagger on 20 December, 2018, 01:47:11 pm
Are the Russians behind these drones? Have they been tested for Novichok?
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: cygnet on 20 December, 2018, 01:49:33 pm
I may be assuming too much too quickly about the motives of the drone operators, but I expect that a lot more airport disruption will be on the cards as Extinction Rebellion really takes off (if you'll pardon the pun).

Governments have done nothing to tackle the causes of climate change and people are taking the law into their own hands.

Whilst awaiting further developments, it might be worth considering putting this in POBI.

It seems the Police agree with you..

"Sussex Police said it was not terror-related but a "deliberate act" of disruption."
It won't help their cause.

Do Sussex Police have history doing this?
;D
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 20 December, 2018, 01:53:28 pm
Of course, this proves you don't need to have a collision if your intent is merely to cause disruption...
You don't even need a drone, a well trained flock of pigeons would do it! How long till pigeon racing attracts the attention of anti-terror cops?!

Who'd then need to establish a crack team of anti-pigeon aviators...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj6-LG5VpGk
https://youtu.be/sj6-LG5VpGk
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Zipperhead on 20 December, 2018, 02:03:12 pm

The thing that makes bird strikes really dangerous is when they come in flocks and damage multiple important bits of plane at the same time.  Doing that with drones would be technically challenging and perhaps prohibitively expensive...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFlwY5h_sD4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFlwY5h_sD4)

I think we're just down to the expensive bit now.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Redlight on 20 December, 2018, 02:06:00 pm
Well, if they catch the person responsible I'd like to personally administer an enema using his bloody drone as lubricant.

I had a good friend arriving at Gatwick today to spend a few days with us before Christmas. Now it looks as though she's not going to make it at all as there are no alternative flights available, due to the planes all being in the wrong places.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 December, 2018, 02:06:48 pm
Of course, this proves you don't need to have a collision if your intent is merely to cause disruption...
You don't even need a drone, a well trained flock of pigeons would do it! How long till pigeon racing attracts the attention of anti-terror cops?!

Who'd then need to establish a crack team of anti-pigeon aviators...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj6-LG5VpGk
https://youtu.be/sj6-LG5VpGk
:thumbsup:  ;D It's a logical extension of the Wacky Races road policing.
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rogerzilla on 20 December, 2018, 02:07:08 pm

It won't help their cause.

That depends on how you identify their cause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFkQSGyeCWg

This lass is absolutely right. When the stakes are that high (and they are), anything goes.

A longer version of her speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAmmUIEsN9A
Pissing off thousands of people at Christmas will get them less sympathy than someone with a "Free Rose West" collecting tin.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 December, 2018, 02:11:49 pm
And as for being "outcome focussed," it doesn't actually do anything to reduce demand for air transport. Though it might not have been eco-activists at all. If it was maybe Putinists, one day's disruption might be their purpose; weakness proved.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 20 December, 2018, 02:14:07 pm
Personally I want to know where they got their batteries from. The most I can get out of my drone is around 25 minutes before I have to return to base to swap out the batt.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 20 December, 2018, 02:23:05 pm
And as for being "outcome focussed," it doesn't actually do anything to reduce demand for air transport.

I reckon that depends on whether it becomes regular enough that people decide that it's better to risk BloodyTrains in order to visit granny in Scotlandshire, or not to book a queuing holiday next year.

Those who have good reason for travelling intercontinental distances are going to do it anyway.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: bludger on 20 December, 2018, 02:32:37 pm
I have a lot of time for Greta. To be frank it's my life on the line as the temperatures rise and if some blocked roads and airports are what it takes to get the powers that be to enact meaningful reform then I'll tolerate that and more.

'Being polite' didn't get the sufragettes, civil rights movement or stop de kindermoord anywhere. They used direct action. It's a fool who thinks The Man™ is going to do the square root of Jack shit unless he absolutely has to.

https://ejatlas.org/conflict/stop-de-kindermoord-stop-the-child-murder-protest-for-children-deaths-caused-by-motor-vehicles

Article related!
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: jiberjaber on 20 December, 2018, 02:37:23 pm
Personally I want to know where they got their batteries from. The most I can get out of my drone is around 25 minutes before I have to return to base to swap out the batt.

Running batteries in parallel and a few cable ties wouldn't be to hard - If I were doing this I'd have a bunch of them in my car (say 20?) and just drive around within a 15 mile to the facility and have them follow a predetermined flightpath - this is easy to do with drones you can make yourself let alone ones bought ready built.  If you had more than one car then the situation could be maintained for quite sometime.

I'm surprised some military technology hasn't been deployed to see if they can spot the launch site(s).... 15 hours of disruption now and an ideal candidate for a copycat to use.  Surely a rivet or awac could have been deployed and something used to track locations?  perhaps they already are up there and don't want to show their hand - this could just be a test for something bigger??  ???

 
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Torslanda on 20 December, 2018, 03:21:01 pm
Anyone claimed responsibility yet?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rogerzilla on 20 December, 2018, 03:59:59 pm
Rachel Riley is stuck there!
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Oscar's dad on 20 December, 2018, 04:55:36 pm
Rachel Riley is stuck there!

Oh no!  What we need is a crack squad of middle aged yacfers with a penchant for Countdown to mount a rescue mission.  Some of us even know about the Gatwick airport goods lift which I fancy could be a useful asset.

Come on chaps and chappesses, Rachel needs us  ;D

* And before someone gets all outrageously offended etc I can assure you I am typing with a tongue firmly wedged in my cheek  :-*
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 20 December, 2018, 05:00:48 pm
To be fair to Extinction I am on their side. It is completely bonkers that a fuel guzzling and lung-rotting jumbo jet is cheaper to get to the country next door than the train and ferry.
While I don't agree with jetting around just for a holiday, some people are trying to get to see family for a once a year (or once in every couple of years) occasion. They aren't travelling to a country 'next door' and train+ferry won't get them there in a time less than days.

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: bludger on 20 December, 2018, 05:23:34 pm
Some are, undoubtedly. But many are not. I think the future prospect of human life being unsupportable on earth is more grave a prospect than supporting a short and long run-harmful system of fuel guzzling jets. The problem is financially cheap but environmentally disastrous jet travel has become a crutch in lieu of sustainable a to b transportation such as continental rail links or electrified coach networks - imagine if we'd sunk billions into curating a network like that across the world instead.

As it happens my Swiss, Dutch and German mates have gotten the coach or train home for Christmas, it's not that long a journey (14-20 hours) and is practically a door to door service unlike going by airplanes. Another used a ride sharing app to snag a lift home in a van covering her share of fuel and probably brought along some snacks.

I am not cold hearted and know people need to see their families at all times of year (not just Christmas) - my own dad worked abroad for two years and he could only make it home every fortnight by plane (though maybe he wouldn't have taken the job if the plane weren't available...) but I question that such a harmful industry is the crutch we should lean on to achieve that.

http://theconversation.com/its-time-to-wake-up-to-the-devastating-impact-flying-has-on-the-environment-70953
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 20 December, 2018, 05:45:23 pm
Fortunately, we flew into Heathrow earlier.

Our inlaws will be driving up for Christmas much as we don't like it (they're too old to be driving that far, we might have to do a round trip to Bristol get them) but there are actually no sensible trains because of engineering. Which is the same insufferable story every year. I'm not clear why it's acceptable but I guess passengers always come last on the railways.

Travel is always going to have a cost. I realise picking on aviation ticks the class activism (though it long since stopped becoming the preserve of rich) – though I suppose of irony is lost given that'll happily buy endless piles of stuff shipped from China and expect to eat avocado and mangos (I'm as guilty as the rest of you, but at least I can admit it). A couple of friends of ours have bought an electric car so big that it won't fit in the garage. Saving the world, one gesture at a time.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: bludger on 20 December, 2018, 05:50:51 pm
I'm sorry but it's a fact that it's massively harmful. Having cycle stuff moved from China by slow boat is nothing compared to a trip on a jet. Playing 'what about' is puerile and the worst 'gesture' I can think of.

Quote
there are actually no sensible trains because of engineering. Which is the same insufferable story every year. I'm not clear why it's acceptable but I guess passengers always come last on the railways.

It's because aside from bank holidays this is the only time of year the contractors get to run a proper blockade and get heavy work done. Such a burden of work is in great part owed to the severe neglect of the rail network 1974-1997.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5jqDgt2yRE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuzxruBlvRQ
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 20 December, 2018, 05:57:03 pm
Considering the vast amount of stuff we move around the world, it's all effectively harmful. The most damaging thing you can do, of course, is to have to children. It's not a game of 'what about' I'm just pointing out that we all live profligate lifestyles.

I realise why they do the work during holidays but it's not my role as a passenger to facilitate their maintenance schedules.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: bludger on 20 December, 2018, 06:02:35 pm
Much of it isn't maintenance - it's capital investment to try to keep pace with the increased demand, which has surged since the 90s. The network isn't up to it in its current configuration.
It doesn't matter whether 'it's all effectively harmful', what signifies is marginal degrees of harm. Eating a slice of pizza that's too hot and stepping on an upturned wooden plank with a nail in it are both harmful, what matters is one's marginal harmfulness is significantly greater than the other.

Quote
The most damaging thing you can do, of course, is to have to children.

Only assuming one's children replicate the carbon-heavy lifestyle of cheap jet airline travel, going about everywhere by oil powered death cage, etc. If anything it seems to me children like Greta have a much more forward thinking and sensible attitude than most 'adults' in understanding western lifetyles are not sustainable in the long run and will actually lead to grave human wellbeing outcomes.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Adam on 20 December, 2018, 06:22:12 pm
When drones first came around years ago, I was always amazed the CAA didn't ban them, as I've been expecting this sort of stunt to happen for a long time as the technology developed.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 December, 2018, 06:24:26 pm
I haven't seen any explanation of why the airport is still closed. Are the drones still flying around? In which case they must have amazing battery life or be very well organized with relays of the things. Also, given it's reported they've brought the army in, how come they haven't just vaporized them?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Chris S on 20 December, 2018, 06:28:06 pm
I haven't seen any explanation of why the airport is still closed. Are the drones still flying around? In which case they must have amazing battery life or be very well organized with relays of the things. Also, given it's reported they've brought the army in, how come they haven't just vaporized them?

Presumably because they haven't caught anyone yet - there's too high a risk of them just coming back when they restart?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: fuaran on 20 December, 2018, 06:31:51 pm
Are there any photos or videos of these "drones" yet?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: JonBuoy on 20 December, 2018, 06:35:18 pm
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6513923/Chaos-Gatwick-drone-spotted-near-airport-SHUTS-runway.html
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ElyDave on 20 December, 2018, 06:35:32 pm
so my job, in part is to help companies understand their environmental and wider sustainability impacts and risks, and help them understand how to reduce them, I have amongst others worked for several UK airports in this.

My time is paid for by the day.  Given that oil companies are still feeding (rather than creating) a global energy demand, albeit that demand is changing shape rapidly; it is still carbon intensive hence a large part of my work is still with energy companies.

How should I get there?  Aberdeen is feasible by train, but adds a day to the bill.  Egypt, Oman, Saudia Arabia? Should I expect the client to pay for the boat and the time?

I'd be interested in your practicable suggestions.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Chris S on 20 December, 2018, 06:42:27 pm
Teleconferencing?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 December, 2018, 06:45:55 pm
I haven't seen any explanation of why the airport is still closed. Are the drones still flying around? In which case they must have amazing battery life or be very well organized with relays of the things. Also, given it's reported they've brought the army in, how come they haven't just vaporized them?

Presumably because they haven't caught anyone yet - there's too high a risk of them just coming back when they restart?
I was thinking along those lines but wondered if there was something else or if the drone/s were still flying. I guess now the principle is proved, it'll happen at various times at various airports by protesters eco and political as well as various other nefarious reasons. Also just for the lolz, until someone accidentally causes a plane crash.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: bludger on 20 December, 2018, 06:49:17 pm
My practicable solution is that the cost of your air travel should internalise (at least in part) the environmental health impact and air travel be minimised and not seen as a staple essential. At the moment it is far far too cheap to fly. It's absurd and it's foisting dire health costs (short and long run) on the rest of the community. My point is not that all airports should close and everyone should use a windcheetah to get around, immediately, but this is a completely unsustainable situation that is killing people right now, and is on course to kill even more in decades to come.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Chris S on 20 December, 2018, 06:51:44 pm
I haven't seen any explanation of why the airport is still closed. Are the drones still flying around? In which case they must have amazing battery life or be very well organized with relays of the things. Also, given it's reported they've brought the army in, how come they haven't just vaporized them?

Presumably because they haven't caught anyone yet - there's too high a risk of them just coming back when they restart?
I was thinking along those lines but wondered if there was something else or if the drone/s were still flying. I guess now the principle is proved, it'll happen at various times at various airports by protesters eco and political as well as various other nefarious reasons. Also just for the lolz, until someone accidentally causes a plane crash.

I seriously question just how much damage a drone could do, to be honest.

I once watched a documentary about aircraft engines. There was someone whose job it was, and I really envied this person, to fire dead chickens into jet engines running at full bore. It was awesome. There was a brief red plume out the back of the engine, and it merrily carried on engineing.

Of course - it would be pretty easy to weaponise a drone; reduce some of its weight, and replace with explosives. Maybe. I dunno - I'm not a terrorist. But I would like the job of firing dead chickens into jet engines.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 20 December, 2018, 06:53:07 pm
Make sure you defrost the bird first...
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/catapoultry/
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Chris S on 20 December, 2018, 06:54:33 pm
https://www.facebook.com/NorthYorkshireWeatherUpdates/photos/a.332763830176487/1968534806599373/?type=3&theater
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 20 December, 2018, 07:04:06 pm
Teleconferencing?

Sadly, as someone who does it a lot, it's mostly a waste of time. Quite honestly, I'd rather not have to travel so much, but doing a job with 'global' in the title makes it pretty impossible.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 December, 2018, 07:11:34 pm
Live your dreams, Chris!

If you haven't a jet engine lying around and a chicken-cannon, you could use a trebuchet and a bike wheel on a turbo.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 20 December, 2018, 07:18:02 pm
https://www.facebook.com/NorthYorkshireWeatherUpdates/photos/a.332763830176487/1968534806599373/?type=3&theater
Most Xlent  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TheLurker on 20 December, 2018, 07:45:30 pm
Teleconferencing?
Ahhh.... but whaddabout all those heeeyuge server farms converting vast quantities of energy from carbon based fuels into heat and CO2?  Not forgetting the enormous amounts of hot air vented by jargon obsessed "management" types desperately trying to justify their place on the payroll.

Ackherlee I disagree with Ian.  Teleconferences are effing marvellous, esp. if you're working from home.  Mute your mic.  and turn down the volume on the headset earphones so it's not too intrusive but you'll be able to hear if someone asks you a question then switch on some pleasant music while leaning back and looking out of the window at the pretty little birdies.  All the while being lulled to dreamland by the barely audible babbling in your earphones.  Marvellous.

Or (and I have been known  to do this) get on with some coding in what would otherwise be completely wasted time.

Either way I come out ahead.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 20 December, 2018, 07:49:22 pm
Teleconferencing?
Ahhh.... but whaddabout all those heeeyuge server farms converting vast quantities of energy from carbon based fuels into heat and CO2?  Not forgetting the enormous amounts of hot air vented by jargon obsessed "management" types desperately trying to justify their place on the payroll.

Ackherlee I disagree with Ian.  Teleconferences are effing marvellous, esp. if you're working from home.  Mute your mic.  and turn down the volume on the headset earphones so it's not too intrusive but you'll be able to hear if someone asks you a question then switch on some pleasant music while leaning back and looking out of the window at the pretty little birdies.  All the while being lulled to dreamland by the barely audible babbling in your earphones.  Marvellous.

Or (and I have been known  to do this) get on with some coding in what would otherwise be completely wasted time.

Either way I come out ahead.
This ^ is my preferred approach to conference calls.
It may, or may not, include deployment of Sauvignon Blanc.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ElyDave on 20 December, 2018, 07:53:31 pm
Teleconferencing?

Practicable, audit of an oil refinery by VC?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ElyDave on 20 December, 2018, 07:55:22 pm
My practicable solution is that the cost of your air travel should internalise (at least in part) the environmental health impact and air travel be minimised and not seen as a staple essential. At the moment it is far far too cheap to fly. It's absurd and it's foisting dire health costs (short and long run) on the rest of the community. My point is not that all airports should close and everyone should use a windcheetah to get around, immediately, but this is a completely unsustainable situation that is killing people right now, and is on course to kill even more in decades to come.

On that we are agreed
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Feanor on 20 December, 2018, 08:17:32 pm
Teleconferencing?

Practicable, audit of an oil refinery by VC?

Ooh, our Software Company was bought out by a rather traditional Ship Surveying and Classifying organisation, based in Fenchurch Street in London, which is trying hard to discard the stovepipe hats and tailcoats.

And in the maritime inspection business, that's *exactly* where we're going.
Remote inspection by drone.

"Super Surveyors". and more "Digital Disruption".
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: bludger on 20 December, 2018, 08:25:54 pm
My former employer has already abandoned the abseilers on the platforms and moved to drones for inspection a while ago.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: alexb on 20 December, 2018, 08:42:09 pm
All this talk of the new laws they plan to bring in reminds me of the chap who said that the government might as well announce that they had announced a new spell for the good it would do.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 December, 2018, 08:44:43 pm
Probably not connected, but 14 German airports on high alert today. Apparently a group of people was observed seeming to inspect the security systems at Stuttgart airport yesterday, one of them is "know in Germany as a dangerous Islamist" and two others previously recorded acting suspiciously at Paris CdG. ARD TV claims Moroccan intelligence informed their German counterparts that suspects had gone to Europe intent on a suicide on an airport in "the Franco-German sphere".
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Ham on 20 December, 2018, 08:47:57 pm
I was reading a short para in the Graun (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/19/gatwick-flights-halted-after-drone-sighting)
Quote
Lady Sugg said: “We absolutely need to make sure that we introduce new laws to ensure that drones are used safely and responsibly. Earlier this year we brought in a law that makes it illegal to fly within a kilometre of an airport and above 400ft.
- that's just madness  ;D
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: aidan.f on 20 December, 2018, 08:49:39 pm
I wonder whether the army considered jamming GPS which the drones use for navigation.. er.. no Sh*t Batman! you cannot do that near an airport!
Local jamming is trivial, GPS is not just SAT NAV it is used for just about everything. Think of the ensuing disruption. I hope no one with devious intent is reading this.
http://www.chronos.co.uk/files/pdfs/cs-an/ThreatOfGPSJamming_V2.0_January2014.pdf (http://www.chronos.co.uk/files/pdfs/cs-an/ThreatOfGPSJamming_V2.0_January2014.pdf)
Quote
Power distribution networks, banking and financial
trading systems, broadcasting and industrialcontrol networks all use GPS timing, making them
equally vulnerable to unintentional or deliberate
interference
Quote
A small jammer (Figure 2) can disrupt the GPS
signal for a mile or more.12
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: spesh on 20 December, 2018, 09:02:27 pm
"I hope no one with devious intent is reading this."

Don't you worry, the sort of people who'd be interested in causing chaos by messing with GPS already know what it's used for.  ;D

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rogerzilla on 20 December, 2018, 09:07:02 pm
It doesn't jam ICBMs.  They thought of that and the missiles use gyroscopes in the atmosphere and optical star-sighting in space...no signal jamming possible.  So we can still blow up Russia.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: hatler on 20 December, 2018, 09:07:39 pm
There's a whole group of people out there into racing drones.

Surely all every airport needs is a bunch of these people permanently on call on a rotational basis. When a disruptive drones shows up, deploy drone racer and give him/her the job of drone kamikaze. Steer their racing drone (they can do over 70mph apparently) straight into the disruptive drone and bring it down.

Failsafe. Surely ?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ElyDave on 20 December, 2018, 09:10:24 pm
My former employer has already abandoned the abseilers on the platforms and moved to drones for inspection a while ago.

I've seen that as well, and I think for inspection of pipes, structures etc, its great, particularly from the point of view of risk to the inspection crew. Allows quick identification of where detailed inspection is required.

However, I'm not doing an inspection, I'm auditing management systems, which needs me to both see what's happening on the ground, and talk to the folks who are doing it there and then.

Most internal meetings I do remotely, I don't think I've been into the office in the last six months.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 20 December, 2018, 09:13:24 pm
I don't understand how they justify shutting down the airport for that long. Drone(s) were spotted at 9pm and 3am. Why is the airport still closed?.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Feanor on 20 December, 2018, 09:16:31 pm
I think tech disruption is possible, but it would lead to a tech arms race.

You could disrupt the RF frequencies used by the drones when under manual control.
But if they are autonomous, than you'd need to disrupt their GPS signal.
That can be done locally, and directionally if required, I think.  GPS signals are very weak.
It would not require the disruption of the entire GPS network and everything that depends on it as suggested in earlier posts.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 20 December, 2018, 09:52:39 pm
The problem is probably to do with not having caught anyone. The perpetrators have demonstrated a capability and an intent to disrupt the airfield operations. Until the security official tasked with the decision is happy to sign off on operations resuming, they won’t. And s/he is probably scared shitless at the potential litigation if anything should subsequently go wrong the s/he wants to know beyond resasonable doubt that there will be no further disruptions. The police et al have probably said that they won’t make such assertions until they’ve got someone helping them with enquires. 
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: matthew on 20 December, 2018, 10:01:13 pm
Drones were reported again at 12pm and again since 9pm. Further a drone may take out an engine or the cockpit windscreen.

Personally if i was in a group that wanted to close the airport i would want 4 or 5 people each with a drone. Take off at 2km with a preprogrammed flight path into the controlled airspace and the out to another location. While it flies drive to the exit point pick up drone for fresh batteries and programme a new route. Travel to new launch point. If each person launches in sequence the you are only flying 2 or 3 times per day. As the launch and retrival locations are not repeated or linked the chances of the police finding you are low.

* dons foil hat* boom imigration is reduced as no planes arrive. *removes foil hat and extracts toungue from cheek*
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 20 December, 2018, 10:03:38 pm
Nah, don't buy it. I think factions inside the CAA sees this as a chance to clamp down hard on drones and the longer this goes on, the easier it is. This is a gross over-reaction that will severely hurt the (legitimate) drone industry in the UK.

Also bear in mind that all the other well publicized incidents in the UK turned out to be not drones. (Last one was a plastic bag).
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 20 December, 2018, 10:10:22 pm
Never underestimate a plastic bag.
Title: Re: What utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Wowbagger on 20 December, 2018, 10:11:03 pm

It won't help their cause.

That depends on how you identify their cause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFkQSGyeCWg

This lass is absolutely right. When the stakes are that high (and they are), anything goes.

A longer version of her speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAmmUIEsN9A
Pissing off thousands of people at Christmas will get them less sympathy than someone with a "Free Rose West" collecting tin.
I think you've missed the point. Greta Thunberg represents millions of kids who are very aware of how we old buggers have freely trashed the planet. She's not after sympathy. She intends to get stuff done.

Which begs the question: how would the "civilised" west cope if tens of thousands of kids suddenly decided that they were going to bring the "adult" world to a halt simply by fucking up every airport, blocking every motorway etc.?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: DaveJ on 20 December, 2018, 10:43:37 pm
We are looking at the need for travel from the wrong perspective.  Just suppose that flying would kill everyone we know.  The bad news is that we don't know whether it will or not.  We do know that flying is currently thought to contribute around 2% of the CO2 we are putting into the atmosphere.  By the time the ice sheets start to move it will be many years to late to do anything about it.  There won't be many people left after a 66m sea level rise, especially not after the wars over the diminishing land area.  Civilisation as we know it would pretty much cease to exist.  We need to make lots of changes to the way we live if we intend to survive the next 100 years.  Flying being one of them.

 
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: mark on 20 December, 2018, 10:55:27 pm
On a lighter note, here's an explanation:

https://newsthump.com/2018/12/20/drones-over-gatwick-found-to-be-new-ryanair-super-economy-flights/?utm_source=NewsThump+Daily+Briefing&utm_campaign=6b063164ef-RSS_EMAIL_DAILYBRIEFING2&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5c4292041a-6b063164ef-435988141
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Gattopardo on 20 December, 2018, 11:03:37 pm
I haven't seen any explanation of why the airport is still closed. Are the drones still flying around? In which case they must have amazing battery life or be very well organized with relays of the things. Also, given it's reported they've brought the army in, how come they haven't just vaporized them?

Presumably because they haven't caught anyone yet - there's too high a risk of them just coming back when they restart?
I was thinking along those lines but wondered if there was something else or if the drone/s were still flying. I guess now the principle is proved, it'll happen at various times at various airports by protesters eco and political as well as various other nefarious reasons. Also just for the lolz, until someone accidentally causes a plane crash.

I seriously question just how much damage a drone could do, to be honest.

I once watched a documentary about aircraft engines. There was someone whose job it was, and I really envied this person, to fire dead chickens into jet engines running at full bore. It was awesome. There was a brief red plume out the back of the engine, and it merrily carried on engineing.

Of course - it would be pretty easy to weaponise a drone; reduce some of its weight, and replace with explosives. Maybe. I dunno - I'm not a terrorist. But I would like the job of firing dead chickens into jet engines.

I have a few versions of real film, filmed at different camera speeds (maybe originals) of various things being sucked and thrown in to jet engines.  These were stolen from skips.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Gattopardo on 20 December, 2018, 11:19:01 pm
Nah, don't buy it. I think factions inside the CAA sees this as a chance to clamp down hard on drones and the longer this goes on, the easier it is. This is a gross over-reaction that will severely hurt the (legitimate) drone industry in the UK.

Also bear in mind that all the other well publicized incidents in the UK turned out to be not drones. (Last one was a plastic bag).

I may agree with you.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 20 December, 2018, 11:50:46 pm
Anyway, the question I'd like to know the answer to is "Why not Heathrow?"

If this is an oik-level thing, then it may simple be convenience, of course.  But otherwise?

Would it be more difficult to pull off such an attack on Heathrow for some reason?
Is there something about Gatwick they're specifically targeting?  (eg. a particular airline?)
If it's an experiment or attempt to trigger a CAA clampdown, why not somewhere smaller where the disruption would be lower and you might expect proportionally less trouble when caught?
Conversely, if resources allow, why not make things really interesting and attack multiple airports simultaneously?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: spesh on 20 December, 2018, 11:54:01 pm
Anyway, the question I'd like to know the answer to is "Why not Heathrow?"

Because Gatwick was the test run?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 21 December, 2018, 12:01:21 am
The other thought that occurs is that there's a less palatable need to shut down Gatwick airport, and drone flights are a plausible reason that avoids mass panic.  But that fails the Occam's razor test...
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 21 December, 2018, 12:03:09 am
A good airport to do stuff at is a fairly rural one with a long perimeter fence and easy road access.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 21 December, 2018, 12:03:39 am
Drones were reported again at 12pm and again since 9pm. Further a drone may take out an engine or the cockpit windscreen.

Personally if i was in a group that wanted to close the airport i would want 4 or 5 people each with a drone. Take off at 2km with a preprogrammed flight path into the controlled airspace and the out to another location. While it flies drive to the exit point pick up drone for fresh batteries and programme a new route. Travel to new launch point. If each person launches in sequence the you are only flying 2 or 3 times per day. As the launch and retrival locations are not repeated or linked the chances of the police finding you are low.

* dons foil hat* boom imigration is reduced as no planes arrive. *removes foil hat and extracts toungue from cheek*

Book him, Danno...  ;D
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: bludger on 21 December, 2018, 12:05:54 am
The other thought that occurs is that there's a less palatable need to shut down Gatwick airport, and drone flights are a plausible reason that avoids mass panic.  But that fails the Occam's razor test...

How about this for paranoia: the perp is sizing up to make a killing from a portfolio invested in drone defence products and is hedging the drone service suppliers.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 21 December, 2018, 12:06:08 am
Just seen this:

"We haven't yet identified the specific make and model of the drone. That will influence our tactical options."

So, basically, there are no tech solutions against these drones just yet... if they cannot identify them, they cannot deal with them.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 21 December, 2018, 12:07:00 am
The other thought that occurs is that there's a less palatable need to shut down Gatwick airport, and drone flights are a plausible reason that avoids mass panic.  But that fails the Occam's razor test...

How about this for paranoia: the perp is sizing up to make a killing from a portfolio invested in drone defence products and is hedging the drone service suppliers.
The perp owns a catering business in Gatwick.  :P
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: bludger on 21 December, 2018, 12:08:27 am
Just seen this:

"We haven't yet identified the specific make and model of the drone. That will influence our tactical options."

So, basically, there are no tech solutions against these drones just yet... if they cannot identify them, they cannot deal with them.
I mean there's one solution that's surely guaranteed to work... Just don't think the government is keen on the PR it would create.

(https://www.defencetalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Starstreak-Missile-SAM-thales.jpg)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 21 December, 2018, 12:09:53 am
Just seen this:

"We haven't yet identified the specific make and model of the drone. That will influence our tactical options."

So, basically, there are no tech solutions against these drones just yet... if they cannot identify them, they cannot deal with them.

I were the authorities and could be reasonably sure that there's a radio signal pointing to the location of the perp, I'd take a very different approach than if I thought there wasn't.

Shooting/jamming/GPS-spoofing/EMPing/lasering/eagleing/Dastardly-&-Muttley-with-a-net-ing down the drone just means you're left waiting around for the next one to pop up.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 21 December, 2018, 12:28:59 am
Gatwick looks to have loads of small, hedged fields around it. Ideal for a hunkered down drone operator.

I guess my previous comment about road access needs further thought - the easiest way of stopping bad stuff from roads is to close them.

I predict a large amount of buy up and plough tiny fields into megafields going on about important airports.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Feline on 21 December, 2018, 12:50:46 am
I reckon a rural airport, like say Bristol, would be very easy to spot anyone within 2km launching or recharging them as there are so few people legitimately lurking out and about in the rain in these parts. I would imagine the population within that radius of Gatwick is larger?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 21 December, 2018, 12:54:38 am
The notion (in the press) that any kind of legislation would have prevented this is silly. The operator is already breaking the law.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 21 December, 2018, 01:08:00 am
I reckon a rural airport, like say Bristol, would be very easy to spot anyone within 2km launching or recharging them as there are so few people legitimately lurking out and about in the rain in these parts. I would imagine the population within that radius of Gatwick is larger?

Good point. At many small airports a helicopter with infrared camera would be pretty useful.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 21 December, 2018, 01:37:39 am
(https://i.imgur.com/mcKe1k5.png)

If they have actual evidence of the drone, they should release it. Given the previous incidents, I'm still skeptical that there actually is a drone involved.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Regulator on 21 December, 2018, 05:27:11 am
We’re supposed to be flying from Gatwick tomorrow.   :(

I did briefly ponder taking one of my rifles with me...
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ElyDave on 21 December, 2018, 06:24:12 am
We are looking at the need for travel from the wrong perspective.  Just suppose that flying would kill everyone we know.  The bad news is that we don't know whether it will or not.  We do know that flying is currently thought to contribute around 2% of the CO2 we are putting into the atmosphere.  By the time the ice sheets start to move it will be many years to late to do anything about it.  There won't be many people left after a 66m sea level rise, especially not after the wars over the diminishing land area.  Civilisation as we know it would pretty much cease to exist.  We need to make lots of changes to the way we live if we intend to survive the next 100 years.  Flying being one of them.

This is the nub of the problem isn't it, both personally and politically.

From the "I quite fancy it a bit warmer" brigade, to the "its not man made so there's nothing to do", the " its all too expensive" and the "yes, its horrible, but not for another hundred years"

Unlike kaboom, fiery DETH, its not immediate and so ends up too abstract or SEP.   None of us for example will be around in 100 years to see the outcome, an I've not seen a single politician in a position of power willing to risk that power for something 100 years away.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 December, 2018, 07:04:28 am
I haven't seen any explanation of why the airport is still closed. Are the drones still flying around? In which case they must have amazing battery life or be very well organized with relays of the things. Also, given it's reported they've brought the army in, how come they haven't just vaporized them?

Presumably because they haven't caught anyone yet - there's too high a risk of them just coming back when they restart?
I was thinking along those lines but wondered if there was something else or if the drone/s were still flying. I guess now the principle is proved, it'll happen at various times at various airports by protesters eco and political as well as various other nefarious reasons. Also just for the lolz, until someone accidentally causes a plane crash.

I seriously question just how much damage a drone could do, to be honest.

I once watched a documentary about aircraft engines. There was someone whose job it was, and I really envied this person, to fire dead chickens into jet engines running at full bore. It was awesome. There was a brief red plume out the back of the engine, and it merrily carried on engineing.

Of course - it would be pretty easy to weaponise a drone; reduce some of its weight, and replace with explosives. Maybe. I dunno - I'm not a terrorist. But I would like the job of firing dead chickens into jet engines.

I have a few versions of real film, filmed at different camera speeds (maybe originals) of various things being sucked and thrown in to jet engines.  These were stolen from skips.
Different from the films you normally find in skips. Those are more of rogerzilla interest.  ;)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 21 December, 2018, 08:13:33 am
A good airport to do stuff at is a fairly rural one with a long perimeter fence and easy road access.
If you believe the marketing then East Midlands Airport is the second busiest freight airport in the UK.
 It is rural, midway between Leicester, Derby & Nottingham, with a huge perimeter, and operates 24 hours a day. The road network is not dense, but the current mud bath that is the construction of a massive freight interchange would seem to give good cover.
 If you wanted to disrupt economic activity then EMA would seem to be an easy target, plus they might well disrupt road traffic on the M1 / M42 as a free bonus.

Sent from my KFDOWI using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ElyDave on 21 December, 2018, 08:27:09 am
https://www.rigzone.com/news/arctic_lng_contract_goes_to_saipem-19-dec-2018-157756-article/ (https://www.rigzone.com/news/arctic_lng_contract_goes_to_saipem-19-dec-2018-157756-article/)

Going OT, but this is the kind of stuff I get in my inbox daily.  The dash to gas is real and not going away soon, this is not being driven by governments in any real way, but by consumers and the industry itself, as an existential threat.

And then there's this https://oilandgasclimateinitiative.com/ (https://oilandgasclimateinitiative.com/), an initiative about nothing other than credibiity and perception - with methane 25x as damaging as CO2, fugitive emissions from gas cannot be seen to be a problem as they will (or at least have the potential to) more than outweigh the efficiency gains as a fuel.  Almost all the majors are now targetting methane emission reductions in a big way.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ElyDave on 21 December, 2018, 08:28:27 am
A good airport to do stuff at is a fairly rural one with a long perimeter fence and easy road access.
If you believe the marketing then East Midlands Airport is the second busiest freight airport in the UK.
 It is rural, midway between Leicester, Derby & Nottingham, with a huge perimeter, and operates 24 hours a day. The road network is not dense, but the current mud bath that is the construction of a massive freight interchange would seem to give good cover.
 If you wanted to disrupt economic activity then EMA would seem to be an easy target, plus they might well disrupt road traffic on the M1 / M42 as a free bonus.

Sent from my KFDOWI using Tapatalk

I'd be heading for a refinery or a fuel dump if I wanted to cause maximum disruption, though the risk to me would undoubtedly be bigger
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rogerzilla on 21 December, 2018, 08:50:34 am
Gatwick only has one working runway, which makes it slightly easier to target, but I don't think Heathrow would be much harder.  Some drones have a 10km control radius, so you could be sat at home in Staines.  The "line of sight" rule is irrelevant if your drone has a decent camera and GPS, and you are going to commit a much more serious offence anyway.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 December, 2018, 09:12:43 am
There's always the possibility it was done specifically to discredit Extinction Rebellion-type causes. You'd want a high profile target for that – a regional airport just wouldn't get you the same exposure – but then you'd probably also issue a (fake, obviously) declaration in the name of the targeted group.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: PaulF on 21 December, 2018, 09:13:48 am
Now that they’ve proved a capacity to disrupt in their shoes (and if I were so motivated) I’d move operations to Stansted today*, Birmingham tomorrow etc.. Whilst with current resources it might just be possible to keep Gatwick open but they’d be stretched keeping all our airports open.

*that would have the collateral benefit of p!ssing off Michael Ryan which probably isn’t a bad thing :-)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: SoreTween on 21 December, 2018, 09:24:26 am
Gatwick is overlooked by a number of hills.  I can think of a few quiet spots on footpaths around Stan Hill, Russ Hill & Norwood Hill from which the whole airfield can be seen.  You're close enough at some to monitor what is going on with a pair of binoculars so no need to carry incriminating receiving equipment.   If you wanted to watch the PoV feed much of the North Downs would have line of sight to something 400' in the air.  I thought the camera feeds were WiFi, can that really reach 10Km?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 21 December, 2018, 09:36:52 am
Why do you need an operator?

Most sophisticated drones can be given a pre-programmed flight path. As pointed out, Gatwick is surrounded by small fields.

Multiple drones. Program in a fairly chaotic flight path. patch on a board that substitutes some of the controller functions (start, load flight path, load different flight path). Use a board that can receive text messages and have a number of pre-set flight paths.

Put several drones in fields.

Now retire to a distance and send your texts. Watch the police|army chase drones. Send texts to change paths as appropriate. Retrieve drones when you can.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: The Family Cyclist on 21 December, 2018, 09:40:32 am
Stansted would be a piece of the proverbial surrounding area is farmland. However it is shooting season and I know a lot of the farmers round that way so think it would be mistaken for a pheasant rather quickly
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: trekker12 on 21 December, 2018, 09:49:26 am
I think we should be realistic about shooting down drones.

Shotguns are short range scatter weapons, you have to be stood in the same field as the pheasant or drone to actually get one of the pellets to hit it. It seems the operator of this drone was smart enough to have it moving around from location to location before anyone got within range of the same field.

Longer range you have the other end of the scale, a marksman with a sniper rifle. Range can exceed two miles but by then you are looking at a small fast moving target through an eyescope on full zoom with variable winter wind conditions. It's possible to hit a human under such conditions like they do in the movies but that is quite large and slow moving in comparison to a drone.

In the middle you have a soldier with an SA80 assault rifle. Very well trained and accurate but only slightly longer range than the shotgun with a standard plain sight and an eyeball. He or she stands absolutely no chance of hitting such a thing other than by filling the sky with lead and hoping the drone flies into it. Hence the police not wanting to consider such an option in open public areas.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 21 December, 2018, 09:51:01 am
We are looking at the need for travel from the wrong perspective.  Just suppose that flying would kill everyone we know.  The bad news is that we don't know whether it will or not.  We do know that flying is currently thought to contribute around 2% of the CO2 we are putting into the atmosphere.  By the time the ice sheets start to move it will be many years to late to do anything about it.  There won't be many people left after a 66m sea level rise, especially not after the wars over the diminishing land area.  Civilisation as we know it would pretty much cease to exist.  We need to make lots of changes to the way we live if we intend to survive the next 100 years.  Flying being one of them.

This is the nub of the problem isn't it, both personally and politically.

From the "I quite fancy it a bit warmer" brigade, to the "its not man made so there's nothing to do", the " its all too expensive" and the "yes, its horrible, but not for another hundred years"

Unlike kaboom, fiery DETH, its not immediate and so ends up too abstract or SEP.   None of us for example will be around in 100 years to see the outcome, an I've not seen a single politician in a position of power willing to risk that power for something 100 years away.

My similar point earlier (which I fear was missed in its subtlety, reminder to use the usual hammer) was that few people will change their lives without direct motivation (and more importantly, they won't vote for it). And we're all like this, tbh. We all have a self-justification. For the school run. For the SUV. For the foreign holiday.*

Which, of course, means individuals will never solve this problem. It requires government. That thing we're eroding away in favour of popularism.

*for the confessional, I grew up in a family who went literally nowhere, so yes, I want to see the world. So I have. On the counter, I live a measured lifestyle (by decadent western lifestyle standards) without the two oversized cars (one little one), don't buy a lot of crap, and don't have any kids. And if that sounds like a self-justification, that's because it's precisely what it is.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rogerzilla on 21 December, 2018, 09:51:21 am
I'd like to see a black Labrador with a drone in its mouth.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 December, 2018, 09:52:31 am
As this is the first such incident, no one would have taken any notice of someone with a couple of drones in a field a few km from an airport. From now on, that's going to be immediately suspect, so the next time (assuming there is some kind of plan and it's not just for shits and giggles) it might be easier from an urban area. Just fly it out of an upper storey window, again on some kind of preprogrammed path?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rogerzilla on 21 December, 2018, 09:57:27 am
The problem with firing a sniper rifle into the sky is that bullets are rather aerodynamic, they don't tumble in the air, and their terminal velocity in free-fall is still high enough to kill.  People living near Iraqi wedding venues know this to their cost.  At close range, a plastic bullet would do the job safely (a spent plastic bullet is not hazardous) but they're also inaccurate.  I assume the drone operators know what they're doing and are keeping at a height invulnerable to air rifles, plastic bullets and netting devices.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 December, 2018, 10:15:51 am
If the aim was to really, really disrupt air travel, or even just one particular airport (disgruntled employees?*), but you didn't want to crash planes and hurt people, I guess while your drones closed the airspace you could sneak a drone with a cratering device to damage the runway. I don't suppose it would make a particularly big hole but every little counts.

*Strange that we haven't heard from Steph on this...  :D
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 21 December, 2018, 10:19:33 am
I’d imagine they have repairing tech that can deal with small holes very quickly.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andrewc on 21 December, 2018, 10:21:57 am
I think it would possibly be career limiting for someone in Steph's position to comment in a public forum.

I took a look at Pprune (Professional Pilots Rumour Network) yesterday , expecting to find a massive thread on this instance.  There was a thread, there were also comments saying that multiple entries had been deleted for no specified  reason.  I can only guess that people were posting what they knew of existing precautions at airports & the site management decided that such information should not be in the public domain.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ElyDave on 21 December, 2018, 10:36:47 am
You know how thick that concrete is?  It would take a massive Kaboom to damage that seriously. 

Much more effective to scatter FOD on the runway, or disrupt the fuel services
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 21 December, 2018, 11:06:24 am
Why do you need an operator?

Most sophisticated drones can be given a pre-programmed flight path. As pointed out, Gatwick is surrounded by small fields.

Multiple drones. Program in a fairly chaotic flight path. patch on a board that substitutes some of the controller functions (start, load flight path, load different flight path). Use a board that can receive text messages and have a number of pre-set flight paths.

Put several drones in fields.

Now retire to a distance and send your texts. Watch the police|army chase drones. Send texts to change paths as appropriate. Retrieve drones when you can.

And if you're really getting fettly, there's no need to tie yourself into the electric n-copter flavour of off-the-shelf UAV.  Combustion engines or helium balloons could be used for greatly prolonged operation.

Cellular comms seems like a no-brainer.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 21 December, 2018, 11:48:33 am
Although cellular comms are easily disrupted if the authorities want to do so, and the tech comes with built in location technology (although this would need approval by the relevant authorities, but that is trivial for the police et al to obtain in a situation such as this)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 21 December, 2018, 11:54:20 am
Although cellular comms are easily disrupted if the authorities want to do so

That just adds to the disruption.   :thumbsup:


Quote
and the tech comes with built in location technology (although this would need approval by the relevant authorities, but that is trivial for the police et al to obtain in a situation such as this)

That's probably more of an issue.  You don't really want to reveal the drone's location at the end of flight if you're intending to service / recover it.

(Before the flight is less of a problem, if you hide it somewhere reasonably populated.  Power the cellular down during the flight, for what it's worth, so there isn't an obvious identifiable phone hovering above the runway.  I'm assuming at this point they've got shiny military radar on site that can track a drone, anyway.)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Steph on 21 December, 2018, 02:21:53 pm
As suggested, staying off commenting here. But...

https://newsthump.com/2018/12/20/drones-over-gatwick-found-to-be-new-ryanair-super-economy-flights/?fbclid=IwAR19VkEdTxug5xvwF3q4QW3qlcv6vvlaVPb4oGrFXtc2C2wDpCBRECxOpg0
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Martin on 21 December, 2018, 03:07:57 pm
According to Wiki the police think the perp is local,

I panicked a  bit last night and paid a "Think about it" £10 for some TAP flights on Boxing Day from LHR as I'm due out of LGW on eJ that day (before they reopened it)

For some odd reason I can book TAP Top Executive fares and they are fully refundable; don't quite understand this and don't want to be £600+ out of pocket for flights I probably won't need, but don't want to be faced with a cancellation on the day again
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 December, 2018, 05:27:51 pm
Apparently they've identified the culprits. Or people who might be the culprits.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 21 December, 2018, 05:35:31 pm
Flights suspended again due to another sighting...
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 December, 2018, 05:52:16 pm
I did notice the story said they'd "identified" them.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: bludger on 21 December, 2018, 06:05:29 pm
I'll take that with a pinch of salt. They might have a good guess at the background of the perps but I reckon they're just trying to spook them into stopping.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 21 December, 2018, 06:24:37 pm
Flights suspended again due to another sighting...

'Unconfirmed sighting'.  I have a pilots license. (I also fly drones). I understand and appreciate how risk adverse the aviation industry is, but this is beyond silly.
I feel sorry for drone operators in the UK.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rafletcher on 22 December, 2018, 08:05:43 am
I'll take that with a pinch of salt. They might have a good guess at the background of the perps but I reckon they're just trying to spook them into stopping.

Arrests have now been made.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Adam on 22 December, 2018, 12:33:13 pm
The daft thing is that the current legislation means unless you apply for an exemption from the CAA, you can't fly a drone above 400 feet, as well as no flying within 1km of an airfield. 

So there's nothing stopping someone popping up some large drones 1.1 km away from Gatwick and setting it all off again.

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ElyDave on 22 December, 2018, 12:37:38 pm
Someone from BALPA was on the news this morning saying that at 1km out, planes are at 200ft anyway, so you could be flying your drone perfectly legally, and set it all off.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 December, 2018, 02:01:45 pm
The perfect date for a repeat has to be 1st April.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Adam on 22 December, 2018, 02:02:34 pm
For anyone who had been stuck at Gatwick, they could always play "Gatwick Invaders" to have a go themselves!

https://codepen.io/MrVincentRyan/full/pqeEYE
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 22 December, 2018, 02:39:51 pm
Is it a coincidence that this has occurred just as Mary Poppins reappears?  Flying umbrellas, etc
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 22 December, 2018, 02:42:20 pm
I'll take that with a pinch of salt. They might have a good guess at the background of the perps but I reckon they're just trying to spook them into stopping.

Arrests have now been made.

I can't help but think that they have paved the way for others.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 22 December, 2018, 02:44:33 pm
For anyone who had been stuck at Gatwick, they could always play "Gatwick Invaders" to have a go themselves!

https://codepen.io/MrVincentRyan/full/pqeEYE

That didn't take long  ;D
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: perpetual dan on 22 December, 2018, 02:50:03 pm
The perfect date for a repeat has to be 1st April.

This felt like a pretty plausible bit of dress rehersal for no-deal Brexit day.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Basil on 22 December, 2018, 03:24:19 pm
I'll take that with a pinch of salt. They might have a good guess at the background of the perps but I reckon they're just trying to spook them into stopping.

Arrests have now been made.

I can't help but think that they have paved the way for others.
My guess is that the original perps stopped, and the second brief occurrence was a copycat job. Not as clever at hiding their location.  Second lot nicked.  Original lot still at large.

Maybe.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 22 December, 2018, 03:35:47 pm
https://road.cc/content/news/253705-gatwick-drone-suspects-hid-plain-sight-riding-bikes-and-wearing-hi-vis
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andrewc on 22 December, 2018, 04:27:44 pm
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/12/22/gatwick-drone-identities-arrested-couple-revealed/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/12/22/gatwick-drone-identities-arrested-couple-revealed/)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: bludger on 22 December, 2018, 04:43:05 pm
(https://i.redd.it/lpxtl1vc0u521.jpg)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 December, 2018, 05:48:29 pm
 :DBldgr. (but weren't there actually two drones?)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Séamas M. on 22 December, 2018, 06:31:23 pm
You know how thick that concrete is?  It would take a massive Kaboom to damage that seriously. 

Much more effective to scatter FOD on the runway, or disrupt the fuel services

Bits of shot down drone could be large enough FOD to cause serious damage. It was a relatively small piece from an earlier aircraft that started the problems for the Air France Concorde.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ElyDave on 22 December, 2018, 06:42:18 pm
You know how thick that concrete is?  It would take a massive Kaboom to damage that seriously. 

Much more effective to scatter FOD on the runway, or disrupt the fuel services

Bits of shot down drone could be large enough FOD to cause serious damage. It was a relatively small piece from an earlier aircraft that started the problems for the Air France Concorde.

kind of makes my point, FOD is the danger, and much more likely than blowing a hole in the runway.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: spesh on 22 December, 2018, 06:43:50 pm
Quote
Drone - Quick sale, cash needed for fake passport or defence lawyer for sale in Bristol on Facebook Marketplace

Slight damage but flys well (as seen on tv). Battery lasts for roughly 16 hours. Slight damage, but works fine. Can deliver in 5years or so.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/367303647179227/?ref=product_details
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Morat on 22 December, 2018, 08:56:30 pm
I think we should be realistic about shooting down drones.

Shotguns are short range scatter weapons, you have to be stood in the same field as the pheasant or drone to actually get one of the pellets to hit it. It seems the operator of this drone was smart enough to have it moving around from location to location before anyone got within range of the same field.

Longer range you have the other end of the scale, a marksman with a sniper rifle. Range can exceed two miles but by then you are looking at a small fast moving target through an eyescope on full zoom with variable winter wind conditions. It's possible to hit a human under such conditions like they do in the movies but that is quite large and slow moving in comparison to a drone.

In the middle you have a soldier with an SA80 assault rifle. Very well trained and accurate but only slightly longer range than the shotgun with a standard plain sight and an eyeball. He or she stands absolutely no chance of hitting such a thing other than by filling the sky with lead and hoping the drone flies into it. Hence the police not wanting to consider such an option in open public areas.

This is all true. If a drone came within 50m of a shotgun it would be toast but it doesn't need to even descend below that height to deny the runway. Rifles are not practical for flying targets and anything with a proximity fuse is going to be very unpopular near an airport.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Morat on 22 December, 2018, 09:01:44 pm
You know how thick that concrete is?  It would take a massive Kaboom to damage that seriously. 

Much more effective to scatter FOD on the runway, or disrupt the fuel services

Bits of shot down drone could be large enough FOD to cause serious damage. It was a relatively small piece from an earlier aircraft that started the problems for the Air France Concorde.

Hmm, that was a titanium strip which was bent into such an unfortunate angle it managed to cut through Concorde's tyre*. I can't see any drone parts being up to that. The greater worry is what a decent sized Li-ION battery could do if it was somehow launched through a plane windscreen.

*this was the original verdict. Later revisions include overweight takeoff, missing shims in the bogie which caused a dramatic swing to the right forcing an early take-off and possibly a fatal CoG shift aft once the fuel tank was punctured. Fascinating, if tragic :(
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Ben T on 22 December, 2018, 09:41:07 pm
Conspiracy theory: wonder if they were selling their house? Fed up of prospective buyers hearing plane noise and losing interest.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TheLurker on 23 December, 2018, 09:53:45 am
The thing that intrigues me are the ages of the alleged offenders.  I was expecting it to be young environmental hot-heads in their twenties.  Instead it seems to be a couple of middle aged types.  ...

"Dammit Muriel! These bally tourists make a rotten din all day every day quite ruining things for decent quiet-living sorts.  It's high time someone did something about it."

"Yes dear. Now;  why don't you finish your breakfast and then write a strongly-worded letter of complaint to the chap who runs the aerodrome?  Oh and you could go out and play with that new flying toy of yours afterwards, that always relaxes you."

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 23 December, 2018, 10:16:35 am
My gut feeling is that its not them, and they'll shortly be released without charge.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andytheflyer on 23 December, 2018, 10:41:53 am
The thing that intrigues me are the ages of the alleged offenders.  I was expecting it to be young environmental hot-heads in their twenties.  Instead it seems to be a couple of middle aged types.  ...

Let's hope that they don't now re-visit the new drone regs in a knee-jerk reaction and throw out the agreed exemptions for genuine model flyers.....  Fingers crossed.....
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 23 December, 2018, 11:22:50 am
Released without charge.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 23 December, 2018, 11:34:34 am
Released without charge.
Bingo! (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=110564.msg2353514#msg2353514)


Perhaps more interestingly, whoever it was, is still out there. Without stating the obvs.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: De Sisti on 23 December, 2018, 11:51:22 am
My immediate thought when I saw a photo of them on a Kent local newspaper website was "Bloody hell! What has Oscar's Dad done to his hair?"
As they have been released without charge perhaps you should delete the photograph.
I feel sorry for them in a way, because there may be vigilanties (who were possibly affected
by the flights delay) thinking, "There's no smoke without fire", wanting to inflict
some sort of retribution on them.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 December, 2018, 11:56:21 am
The thing that intrigues me are the ages of the alleged offenders.  I was expecting it to be young environmental hot-heads in their twenties.  Instead it seems to be a couple of middle aged types.  ...

"Dammit Muriel! These bally tourists make a rotten din all day every day quite ruining things for decent quiet-living sorts.  It's high time someone did something about it."

"Yes dear. Now;  why don't you finish your breakfast and then write a strongly-worded letter of complaint to the chap who runs the aerodrome?  Oh and you could go out and play with that new flying toy of yours afterwards, that always relaxes you."
Environmental hot heads was, I think, the general first assumption, but the lack of any claim makes it seem less likely. OTOH it went on too long to be just for the lolz, I think. And no obvious terrorist link. Perhaps it was just a dress rehearsal for something bigger at multiple airports?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TheLurker on 23 December, 2018, 12:06:37 pm
The thing that intrigues me are the ages of the alleged offenders.  I was expecting it to be young environmental hot-heads in their twenties.  Instead it seems to be a couple of middle aged types.  ...

Let's hope that they don't now re-visit the new drone regs in a knee-jerk reaction and throw out the agreed exemptions for genuine model flyers.....  Fingers crossed.....
Yes. That thought crossed my mind as well.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 23 December, 2018, 12:19:25 pm
I'm not sure how they can say there's no obvious terrorist link, apart from the fact they haven't had an "I dun that!" claim, or a culprit.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 23 December, 2018, 12:21:19 pm
It has been mentioned elsewhere that this could've been a practice run for something much more substantial.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 23 December, 2018, 12:29:19 pm
A set of terrorists at every airport would be a plan. Very low cost and apparently quite low risk to perps.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Wowbagger on 23 December, 2018, 01:31:00 pm
I wouldn't call that terrorism. A massive pain in the arse to those who want to fly, but hardly a risk to life if the airport/airlines keep to their high safety standards.

I'm not 100% sure that they would, though, if Teh Authorities were unable to contain it. ISTR that when the air was full of ash when an unpronounceable volcano erupted that after a while they started flying again anyway.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 23 December, 2018, 02:08:15 pm
ISTR that when the air was full of ash when an unpronounceable volcano erupted that after a while they started flying again anyway.

I think that was more a case of once they could be reasonably confident that the bits of air that weren't full of ash were going to stay clear of ash for long enough that nobody would end up flying through it.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 23 December, 2018, 02:14:08 pm
I wouldn't call that terrorism. A massive pain in the arse to those who want to fly, but hardly a risk to life if the airport/airlines keep to their high safety standards.

Indeed.  Terrorism seems to be about direct and dramatic threat to life.  The usual terror suspects have proven to be averse to mere disruption (even that which would likely result in deaths, such as a coordinated attack on the electricity grid).  Hence the fascination with aeroplanes, rather than easier targets.

Obviously preventing planes from flying in a way that makes future air travel appear less convenient, but doesn't directly harm anyone, would suit those with an environmental agenda.  As an environmental protest I think it's a pretty clever one, though I'm sceptical that that's what this is.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Wowbagger on 23 December, 2018, 02:19:24 pm
Of course, that doesn't mean that our disingenuous government won't move the goalposts regarding the definition of terrorism. See The Stansted 15.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 23 December, 2018, 02:30:04 pm
Of course, that doesn't mean that our disingenuous government won't move the goalposts regarding the definition of terrorism. See The Stansted 15.

Yes, I fully expect a similar level of book-throwing.  Somewhat more legally justifiable in this case.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Wowbagger on 23 December, 2018, 02:30:45 pm
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48390256_2043560715726941_4428507020462653440_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_eui2=AeEcGChOioXHjlK8g60GcPP9dILsR3jgZYEWUOcBF8TBlKK-qnF6_ZD7DuDrcfAssJ3VASy-1YVXAk_SRen-zGcbbhq_-W2LLGYfGlvvaXSB5w&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=9f6f4731c30098b9b1014a62c41b2270&oe=5C9BAB77)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 23 December, 2018, 02:43:31 pm
Of course, that doesn't mean that our disingenuous government won't move the goalposts regarding the definition of terrorism. See The Stansted 15.

If it does turn out to be ISIS or similar, how should it be dealt with. Some community service?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 December, 2018, 02:52:27 pm
Wasn't terrorism recently redefined in legal terms to include threats to property, specifically in order to include things like this? Or was that only in the USA?

Of course, that doesn't mean that our disingenuous government won't move the goalposts regarding the definition of terrorism. See The Stansted 15.

If it does turn out to be ISIS or similar, how should it be dealt with. Some community service?
Depends on what they were doing. So far they haven't endangered anyone. If they wanted to crash a plane with a drone they'd surely make the drone as hard to detect as possible and aim it at something vital like an engine or cockpit window. So, in the absence of an established motive, should shutting down an airport – or any other act – be sentenced differently if the culprits are ISIS or Joe and Jane Blogs out for a shit and a giggle? Of course it might turn out that this was in order to gather intelligence for an attack of some other sort on Gatwick, but so far, that's only speculation.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 23 December, 2018, 03:03:43 pm
If they wanted to crash a plane with a drone they'd surely make the drone as hard to detect as possible and aim it at something vital like an engine or cockpit window.

I reckon that would be extremely hard to do.  I mean, they're reasonably stealthy as it is, but targeting a vulnerable part of a fast-moving aircraft with a slow-moving drone would be difficult to accomplish manually, and if you go to the effort of incorporating a proper targeting system, you might as well throw in an explosive warhead to increase the efficacy.  Then there's a strong argument for ditching the buzzy bits in favour of a rocket motor, at which point you've got a surface-to-air missile and if you've got the resources to develop one of *those*, you can probably buy one that works off the shelf from your local shady arms dealer.

At risk of illuminating the purple light at GCHQ, If I wanted to attack a plane with a drone, I'd use it to deliver an incendiary device while it was on the ground.  Other suitable targets left as an exercise for the reader.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andrewc on 23 December, 2018, 03:14:54 pm
If they wanted to crash a plane with a drone they'd surely make the drone as hard to detect as possible and aim it at something vital like an engine or cockpit window.
At risk of illuminating the purple light at GCHQ, If I wanted to attack a plane with a drone, I'd use it to deliver an incendiary device while it was on the ground.  Other suitable targets left as an exercise for the reader.


https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/news/a27511/russia-drone-thermite-grenade-ukraine-ammo/


Allegedly a drone attack.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: bobb on 23 December, 2018, 03:24:25 pm
At risk of illuminating the purple light at GCHQ, If I wanted to attack a plane with a drone, I'd use it to deliver an incendiary device while it was on the ground.  Other suitable targets left as an exercise for the reader.

I love the fact that you have spent time (no matter how little of it) considering the best way to trash a plane  ;D
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Panoramix on 23 December, 2018, 03:49:07 pm
My former employer has already abandoned the abseilers on the platforms and moved to drones for inspection a while ago.

I've seen that as well, and I think for inspection of pipes, structures etc, its great, particularly from the point of view of risk to the inspection crew. Allows quick identification of where detailed inspection is required.

However, I'm not doing an inspection, I'm auditing management systems, which needs me to both see what's happening on the ground, and talk to the folks who are doing it there and then.

Most internal meetings I do remotely, I don't think I've been into the office in the last six months.
Have a local office with people living in the right country.

Envoyé de mon Action-X3 en utilisant Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 23 December, 2018, 03:50:45 pm
At risk of illuminating the purple light at GCHQ, If I wanted to attack a plane with a drone, I'd use it to deliver an incendiary device while it was on the ground.  Other suitable targets left as an exercise for the reader.

I love the fact that you have spent time (no matter how little of it) considering the best way to trash a plane  ;D

Inspired by Londo Mollari, obviously.  Although that strategy didn't work out so well for him in the end.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Panoramix on 23 December, 2018, 04:12:27 pm
If they wanted to crash a plane with a drone they'd surely make the drone as hard to detect as possible and aim it at something vital like an engine or cockpit window.

I reckon that would be extremely hard to do.  I mean, they're reasonably stealthy as it is, but targeting a vulnerable part of a fast-moving aircraft with a slow-moving drone would be difficult to accomplish manually, and if you go to the effort of incorporating a proper targeting system, you might as well throw in an explosive warhead to increase the efficacy.  Then there's a strong argument for ditching the buzzy bits in favour of a rocket motor, at which point you've got a surface-to-air missile and if you've got the resources to develop one of *those*, you can probably buy one that works off the shelf from your local shady arms dealer.

At risk of illuminating the purple light at GCHQ, If I wanted to attack a plane with a drone, I'd use it to deliver an incendiary device while it was on the ground.  Other suitable targets left as an exercise for the reader.
Anybody with a basic workshop and able to Google pulsejet could make some rockety things fly.

Envoyé de mon Action-X3 en utilisant Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 December, 2018, 04:40:01 pm
I agree, but it wouldn't do them any good for us to delete the photo, as it's still up on dozens of national and local news sites. Nevertheless, we strive for excellence rather than normality.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rogerzilla on 23 December, 2018, 04:46:52 pm
Links deleted.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 23 December, 2018, 04:51:29 pm
It's a reminder that I think people should be granted anonymity till found guilty of a charge, though the legal establishment evidently disagrees with me.

Anyway, my money is on disgruntled nimbys, the sort that buy a house by an airport and are surprised to find that big noisy things are flying overhead.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Vernon on 23 December, 2018, 05:04:15 pm
My money is on the authorities in a ruse to get civilian drone usage banned.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 23 December, 2018, 05:06:59 pm
My money is on the authorities in a ruse to get civilian drone usage banned.
Proper konspiraci. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Clare on 23 December, 2018, 05:22:28 pm
I still reckon it was a bunch of yooves twatting about.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 23 December, 2018, 05:44:31 pm
I see the police were suggesting (in a manner akin to Theresa May first mentioning the possibility of no brexit) that there may not have been a drone at all.

Quote
He said there was no available footage of the drones and police were relying on witness accounts.

He added there was "always a possibility that there may not have been any genuine drone activity in the first place", but they were working on a range of information from members of the public, police officers and staff working at Gatwick who had reported otherwise.

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46665615


Well-aimed hoax, conspiracy or mass hysteria?  Place your bets...
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 23 December, 2018, 05:51:01 pm
I see the police were suggesting (in a manner akin to Theresa May first mentioning the possibility of no brexit) that there may not have been a drone at all.

Quote
He said there was no available footage of the drones and police were relying on witness accounts.

He added there was "always a possibility that there may not have been any genuine drone activity in the first place", but they were working on a range of information from members of the public, police officers and staff working at Gatwick who had reported otherwise.

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46665615


Well-aimed hoax, conspiracy or mass hysteria?  Place your bets...

The headless chicken option is a strong one...........
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 23 December, 2018, 05:52:30 pm
Why did the chicken cross the runway?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 23 December, 2018, 05:57:42 pm
Actually, I'm changing my vote to the 'there was no drone' and it's one of the 'big cat' style things. They never found the Beast of Sydenham either.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 23 December, 2018, 06:01:45 pm
Actually, I'm changing my vote to the 'there was no drone' and it's one of the 'big cat' style things. They never found the Beast of Sydenham either.
The beast of Sydenham is my mate, Simon.
He lives in Byne Road.
Why did the chicken cross the runway?
The answer is 47 and blue.
As you were.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 23 December, 2018, 06:06:04 pm
Actually, I'm changing my vote to the 'there was no drone' and it's one of the 'big cat' style things. They never found the Beast of Sydenham either.

Mine too.  And I'm going to go a step further and suggest that it will still be used as an excuse to install - at great expense - marginally effective anti-drone security theatre.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 23 December, 2018, 06:17:46 pm
Yes, of course, large sums will now be spent on dubious technological solutions. No drone or operator will ever be found (seriously, there must hundreds of crashed drones littering the countryside, I've certainly found a few).
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 23 December, 2018, 06:29:12 pm
So were the drone sightings reported by people with an interest in selling anti drone technology....?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Chris S on 23 December, 2018, 06:34:43 pm
Yes, of course, large sums will now be spent on dubious technological solutions. No drone or operator will ever be found (seriously, there must hundreds of crashed drones littering the countryside, I've certainly found a few).

You're Blodwyn Pig, and ICMFP
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Wowbagger on 23 December, 2018, 06:56:01 pm
At risk of illuminating the purple light at GCHQ, If I wanted to attack a plane with a drone, I'd use it to deliver an incendiary device while it was on the ground.  Other suitable targets left as an exercise for the reader.

I love the fact that you have spent time (no matter how little of it) considering the best way to trash a plane  ;D

As I have posted elsewhere, quite a few years ago some peace activists got into Fairford and did some very expensive damage to one of their warplanes. They were acquitted on the grounds that their action was in order to prevent a greater crime. I think that verdict was just as it should have been, but I can't see it happening these days.

I've been hunting for a source to corroborate this, but the best I can manage are 3 trials, 3 hung juries and 3 retrials. I'm still looking for the results of the retrials.

https://peacenews.info/node/4184/hat-trick-fairford-activists

Found it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairford_Five

I reckon that sums it up.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 23 December, 2018, 07:06:38 pm
So were the drone sightings reported by people with an interest in selling anti drone technology....?

Probably not, but I'm sure they'll take the opportunity that's been presented. If I had some clever-sounding anti-drone tech I'd be knocking on their door.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Vernon on 23 December, 2018, 07:11:15 pm
So were the drone sightings reported by people with an interest in selling anti drone technology....?

Such as BAE Systems, or Lockheed Martin (or some other company largely owned by Philip May's investment group)? Hmmm, <ponders> No, I doubt it.  ::-)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 23 December, 2018, 07:17:02 pm
Or, as we now learn, you can bring one major airport to a standstill with a few mates phoning in reported sightings of drones. Thus, with a few more mates you could simultaneously bring lots of airports to a standstill by phoning in lots of sightings around lots of airports.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andrewc on 23 December, 2018, 07:17:32 pm
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1076917050130554881 (https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1076917050130554881)


A spokesperson for Birmingham Airport says flights have been temporarily suspended due to an "air traffic control fault" and is advising passengers to check with their airlines "regarding flight departures and arrivals"


Anyone seen Kim recently ?  ;)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Tim Hall on 23 December, 2018, 08:11:38 pm
Does anyone else think of Bertie Wooster whenever Drones are mentioned? No? Just me then.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 23 December, 2018, 08:12:46 pm
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1076917050130554881


A spokesperson for Birmingham Airport says flights have been temporarily suspended due to an "air traffic control fault" and is advising passengers to check with their airlines "regarding flight departures and arrivals"

Anyone seen Kim recently ?  ;)

Sorry.  I coughed too hard and they saw a bogey on their radar screen...
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 December, 2018, 08:13:50 pm
Does anyone else think of Bertie Wooster whenever Drones are mentioned? No? Just me then.
Crumpets for tea is it, Tim?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 December, 2018, 08:14:59 pm
There was a vid of what appeared to be a drone flying above a place that looked like an airport terminal on a day that was claimed to be yesterday. I'm sure a link to it was posted here.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 December, 2018, 08:16:04 pm
Or, as we now learn, you can bring one major airport to a standstill with a few mates phoning in reported sightings of drones. Thus, with a few more mates you could simultaneously bring lots of airports to a standstill by phoning in lots of sightings around lots of airports.
But then you could do the same by phoning in sightings of "suspicious packages."
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Peter on 23 December, 2018, 08:18:23 pm
Ah, thanks!
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andrewc on 23 December, 2018, 08:18:49 pm
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1076917050130554881 (https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1076917050130554881)


A spokesperson for Birmingham Airport says flights have been temporarily suspended due to an "air traffic control fault" and is advising passengers to check with their airlines "regarding flight departures and arrivals"

Anyone seen Kim recently ?  ;)

Sorry.  I coughed too hard and they saw a bogey on their radar screen...


 :D
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 24 December, 2018, 02:03:05 am
I guarantee you that they'll still make even more silly anti-drone laws.
This isn't the first time.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Giraffe on 24 December, 2018, 09:03:45 am
Really, that couple shouldn't have been named. The police said that the arrest was 'lawful'. Assuming that those two did nothing wrong and weren't involved in any way, there was no evidence at all against them (an accusation is not evidence, however many people say the same thing), so it was false imprisonment. I hope that they get good compensation.

A far worse case was when that garden designer in Bristol was murdered. Her landlord was charged and named - he didn't do it, but his reputation was ruined.
Yes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but evidence is not proof. In the absence of guilt there is no evidence at all, just incompetence and stupidity.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: De Sisti on 24 December, 2018, 09:10:42 am
Really, that couple shouldn't have been named. The police said that the arrest was 'lawful'. Assuming that those two did nothing wrong and weren't involved in any way, there was no evidence at all against them (an accusation is not evidence, however many people say the same thing), so it was false imprisonment. I hope that they get good compensation.

A far worse case was when that garden designer in Bristol was murdered. Her landlord was charged and named - he didn't do it, but his reputation was ruined.
Yes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but evidence is not proof. In the absence of guilt there is no evidence at all, just incompetence and stupidity.
There were some on this forum who were happy to post photographs of the couple. ::-)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 24 December, 2018, 09:28:09 am
Really, that couple shouldn't have been named. The police said that the arrest was 'lawful'. Assuming that those two did nothing wrong and weren't involved in any way, there was no evidence at all against them (an accusation is not evidence, however many people say the same thing), so it was false imprisonment. I hope that they get good compensation.

A far worse case was when that garden designer in Bristol was murdered. Her landlord was charged and named - he didn't do it, but his reputation was ruined.
Yes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but evidence is not proof. In the absence of guilt there is no evidence at all, just incompetence and stupidity.

But that's how it works, there has to be a compelling (and defined) reason for anonymity. Sometimes you don't even need to be charged, the police will turn up with the media in helicopters above your house. That said, gazing into my crystal ball, I see them receiving a financial donation from the chaps in blue. While the police may lack the resources to address ordinary crime, they do seem to have limitless resources for paying off people (and hanging around football matches). That said, I think our entire legal profession is all a bit dim, some senior barrister was bemoaning the fact that people who look nice and present themselves well in the witness box are more likely to get off. Erm, really.

It does seem a mite peculiar that given the resources of the military, police, and airport, the only footage we have of these drones is a couple of unverified videos on the internet...
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: fuaran on 24 December, 2018, 10:01:39 am
With all of the plane spotters sitting around with their telephoto lenses, plus all of the media, you'd think someone could have got a decent photo/video.
And identified what make/model of drone it actually was. Several reports claimed it was an 'industrial' drone,  I'm not sure how they worked that out.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jaded on 24 December, 2018, 10:44:04 am
It was working very hard?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 24 December, 2018, 10:50:08 am
The 'we found a broken drone' seems increasingly desperate. 'But the rain may have washed away any evidence...'

Yeah, it might have.

I suspect we'll have more genuine footage of Santa this evening than there will ever be of any Gatwick drone.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Ben T on 24 December, 2018, 10:54:05 am
My money is on the authorities in a ruse to get civilian drone usage banned.

Same as bottled water manufactuers being behind whatever caused liquids to be banned.


There was a vid of what appeared to be a drone flying above a place that looked like an airport terminal on a day that was claimed to be yesterday. I'm sure a link to it was posted here.

Thing about the videos is it could have been anywhere - I bet the background was just sky.

With all of the plane spotters sitting around with their telephoto lenses, plus all of the media, you'd think someone could have got a decent photo/video.
And identified what make/model of drone it actually was. Several reports claimed it was an 'industrial' drone,  I'm not sure how they worked that out.

With a telephoto lens I would think you would struggle to get the airport in the background in focus.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: De Sisti on 24 December, 2018, 11:38:27 am
, some senior barrister was bemoaning the fact that people who look nice and present themselves well in the witness box are more likely to get off. Erm, really.
Unconcious bias ("Forget the evidence, you look like me, so I'm going to find you not guilty").
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 24 December, 2018, 12:03:51 pm
, some senior barrister was bemoaning the fact that people who look nice and present themselves well in the witness box are more likely to get off. Erm, really.
Unconcious bias ("Forget the evidence, you look like me, so I'm going to find you not guilty").

It's not really that unconscious tbh, but it is the obvious outcome of an adversarial justice system.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 24 December, 2018, 12:46:57 pm
Actually, I'm changing my vote to the 'there was no drone' and it's one of the 'big cat' style things. They never found the Beast of Sydenham either.

Mine too.  And I'm going to go a step further and suggest that it will still be used as an excuse to install - at great expense - marginally effective anti-drone security theatre.

Nailed it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46670714
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 24 December, 2018, 01:26:50 pm
Actually, I'm changing my vote to the 'there was no drone' and it's one of the 'big cat' style things. They never found the Beast of Sydenham either.

Mine too.  And I'm going to go a step further and suggest that it will still be used as an excuse to install - at great expense - marginally effective anti-drone security theatre.

Nailed it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46670714
Thats a purchase that shouts out ‘due diligence’! “The airport has spent £5 million on technology since Wednesday to prevent copycat attacks.


You can imagine that there’s a chap in a back office somewhere that’s been ranting about Drone attacks forever and has continued to receive the same answer ‘shut up Terry (who is head of aerial attack prevention), that’s obviously not going to happen’, then on Thursday morning, the boss has come down to the department and turned to John (who is head of tunnelling attack prevention) and said ‘John, this can’t happen again, here’s £5 million, get whatever we need’
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 24 December, 2018, 01:36:23 pm
You can imagine that there’s a chap in a back office somewhere that’s been ranting about Drone attacks forever and has continued to receive the same answer ‘shut up Terry (who is head of aerial attack prevention), that’s obviously not going to happen’, then on Thursday morning, the boss has come down to the department and turned to John (who is head of tunnelling attack prevention) and said ‘John, this can’t happen again, here’s £5 million, get whatever we need’

So true...
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: De Sisti on 24 December, 2018, 03:22:37 pm
, some senior barrister was bemoaning the fact that people who look nice and present themselves well in the witness box are more likely to get off. Erm, really.
Unconcious bias ("Forget the evidence, you look like me, so I'm going to find you not guilty").

It's not really that unconscious tbh, but it is the obvious outcome of an adversarial justice system.
OK then, concious bias. It happens. My employer has 'unconsious bias' courses, so that one can
recognise when it's happening. I'd wager it still persists.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: mattc on 24 December, 2018, 03:37:01 pm
From July 2017:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oroWL1cojTg
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: barakta on 24 December, 2018, 04:11:10 pm
, some senior barrister was bemoaning the fact that people who look nice and present themselves well in the witness box are more likely to get off. Erm, really.
Unconcious bias ("Forget the evidence, you look like me, so I'm going to find you not guilty").

It's not really that unconscious tbh, but it is the obvious outcome of an adversarial justice system.
OK then, concious bias. It happens. My employer has 'unconsious bias' courses, so that one can
recognise when it's happening. I'd wager it still persists.

Unconscious bias training may not even be effective beyond an initial awareness raising: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/blogs/unconscious-bias-training-no-such-thing-quick-fix

But yes, it's well known in legal circles that issues such as race, class, accent, presentation, mannerisms massively affect not just juries but legal practitioners' view of someone's innocence or guilt and level of sanction. :(
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andytheflyer on 24 December, 2018, 04:22:35 pm
The 'we found a broken drone' seems increasingly desperate. 'But the rain may have washed away any evidence...'

Yeah, it might have.

I suspect we'll have more genuine footage of Santa this evening than there will ever be of any Gatwick drone.

As an r/c model flyer, but no fan of drones in the wrong hands, I was very sceptical when they were saying that there were 50 drone sightings - now it's 67, I'm even more sceptical.

If people had made 67 drone flights around Gatwick over an 18 hour period, someone, somewhere would have seen something and there would be more reporting of the sightings than there has been.  That's a lot of flights.  OK, maybe some are multiple sightings of the same flight, but even so it beggars my belief that there were a large number of drone incursions.

My model flying club files off an active light aviation airfield, and has done since 1964, with (AFAIAW) no incidents.  Our full-size neighbours are delighted to have us fly on their field, and some of the full size pilots also fly models.  Paradoxically maybe, we get occasional apologies from the full-size about visiting aircraft joining the circuit in the wrong way and overflying us when we are flying - that tends to concentrate our minds for a few seconds.  And don't start me on the RAF helicopters doing their own thing.

We don't however, accept drone flyers as members (and maybe that's a shame), simply because the full-size flyers trust the model flyers (helicopter and fixed wing) to know the rules and stick to them.  With the bad publicity surrounding drones, we simply can't take the risk of alienating our neighbours.

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Adam on 24 December, 2018, 04:29:49 pm
Having cycled a lot around there, both day & night, there's a lot of countryside with woodland tracks and minor roads around large parts of Gatwick.  It would be very easy for someone on a mountain bike to pop a drone up & down a few times within 1 km or far less from the airport.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 24 December, 2018, 04:32:01 pm
Well, now they are claiming that they didn't mean to say there might be 'no drone' while at the same time admitting they have no actual evidence there was a drone. Other than eyewitnesses, of whom there were apparently many, not one of whom managed to get any evidence. Eyewitness evidence is effectively worthless. If you tell people there's drones, UFOs, big cats, kiddy abductors, or whatever, they will report seeing them.

Given the relative inexpensiveness of drones and the majority of them in amateur hands, is finding a crashed one really evidence of anything other than people crash their drones often and probably don't manage to find them?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 24 December, 2018, 04:58:56 pm
The 'we found a broken drone' seems increasingly desperate. 'But the rain may have washed away any evidence...'

Yeah, it might have.

I suspect we'll have more genuine footage of Santa this evening than there will ever be of any Gatwick drone.

As an r/c model flyer, but no fan of drones in the wrong hands, I was very sceptical when they were saying that there were 50 drone sightings - now it's 67, I'm even more sceptical.

If people had made 67 drone flights around Gatwick over an 18 hour period, someone, somewhere would have seen something and there would be more reporting of the sightings than there has been.  That's a lot of flights.  OK, maybe some are multiple sightings of the same flight, but even so it beggars my belief that there were a large number of drone incursions.

A small number of flights leading to 67 sightings sounds about right to me.  I know they're hard to see, but there are some very people-dense areas around Gatwick Airport, so it's entirely reasonable for a single flight to result in dozens of sightings.

Of course it's also reasonable for the sightings to have been well-intentioned but false, or for some of the reports to be hoaxes.  At this point, if you felt like keeping the airport shut down for a bit longer (eg. for the lols, or the benefit of the environment) you could phone in a drone sighting with little expectation of getting in any trouble.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: PaulF on 24 December, 2018, 05:05:52 pm

We don't however, accept drone flyers as members (and maybe that's a shame), simply because the full-size flyers trust the model flyers (helicopter and fixed wing) to know the rules and stick to them.  With the bad publicity surrounding drones, we simply can't take the risk of alienating our neighbours.


Out of interest how do you define the difference between a drone and a model? Is it as simple that a model looks like a proper aircraft albeit sometimes an imagined one? Or is it more subtle?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 24 December, 2018, 05:18:21 pm
Yet not one of the people who were actually there specifically to look for these drones seem to have seen one. None of the fancy equipment seems to have detected one: no pictures, no radar, no radio signals.

On the plus side, made-up technology will likely successfully detect made-up drones.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 24 December, 2018, 05:34:25 pm
None of the fancy equipment seems to have detected one: no pictures, no radar, no radio signals.

They wouldn't tell us if it had.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 24 December, 2018, 05:44:32 pm
Given the level of potential embarrassment, I suspect they would shout out any evidence at this point rather than look at their feet and mutter well, he says he saw one...

They were happy enough to arrest a couple on the grounds they might have once been near Gatwick and feed their details direct to the papers.

Of course, the drone could have been operated by an alien paedobear, recently arrived on a UFO. They won't find evidence, of course, as it was eaten by a mysterious big cat.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 24 December, 2018, 05:48:22 pm
Yeah, but then they'd have to reveal that the technology in question is a set of really powerful binoculars.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andytheflyer on 24 December, 2018, 07:03:55 pm

We don't however, accept drone flyers as members (and maybe that's a shame), simply because the full-size flyers trust the model flyers (helicopter and fixed wing) to know the rules and stick to them.  With the bad publicity surrounding drones, we simply can't take the risk of alienating our neighbours.


Out of interest how do you define the difference between a drone and a model? Is it as simple that a model looks like a proper aircraft albeit sometimes an imagined one? Or is it more subtle?

Well done, you've hit the nail bang on the head.  No-one has been able to come up with a legally-watertight definition - so up until recently we model flyers were staring down the barrel of the end of model flying as we've always known it in the UK - r/c, free flight, nearly everything.  Fortunately, sense was eventually seen and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) was persuaded that legitimate model flying has been a safe pastime for thousands of people for getting on for a century.  It was only the drones that were causing a problem.  Indeed, there are a number of model flying clubs in the UK that occupy the same general space as full-size light aviation clubs, all without difficulty.

EASA has recognised that since legitimate model flying was shown to be historically safe, the national regulators could continue to do what they have always done wrt model flying - in this case the CAA regulates model flying.  It may come as a surprise, but regs that apply to 747s also apply to model flying, where relevant.  In general, model flyers in the UK will belong to a club, or at least be members of the British Model Flying Association (the BMFA).  Generally, clubs are affiliated to the BMFA, who provide insurance and back-up in case of matters concerning the CAA and the law.  There are around 70,000 members of the BMFA. 

EASA recognised that to be able to fly an r/c model, you'll probably have bought the aeroplane from a shop and you will have been given advice as to how to go about learning to fly it.  Believe me, you are very, very unlikely to learn by yourself.  You will be gently pushed towards a club where you will learn how to fly and, more importantly, learn how to fly safely and in accordance with the law.

EASA was persuaded of the value of this historical approach and has exempted model flyers, who are members of the BMFA or recognised clubs, from the drone regs which come into force next November.  Make no mistake, these are draconian.  Hundreds of thousands of drone flyers are going to fall foul of the regs.  It was, however, squeaky bum time for the model flying community for many months until recently.

Model flyers in the USA, for example, may not be so lucky.  Their FAA draft regs are draconian, and AIUI could be a severe restaint on model flying.  I understand that the FAA has had to re-visit the draft regs, but as yet nothing has been decided. 

It all comes back to the difficulty of determining what is a drone in law.  Say you call it a multi-rotor r/c aeroplane.  What do you do then about model Chinook flyers?  (Not that there are that many).  Or an on-board camera? Some model flyers have a camera and fly though a headset - that's covered by the BMFA rules, which require an observer to stand alongside the model pilot whist flying via the headset.  OK, try a weight limit.  EASA require any drone over 250g to be registered and only flown by someone over 18.  There are very few model aeroplanes under that weight, and those that there are are mostly flown indoors in sports hall, in competitions.  Most will be in the 3 to 5kg band.  Over 7kg, additional regs apply to models, and over 20kg the CAA is involved in scrutineering for airworthiness.

Age limit then maybe?  OK, what about the thousands of kids that learn to fly, and then go on to build their own models, learning valuable skills and the ability to make and mend things.

Finally, the 400ft limit gives the model glider flyers a problem. Launch off a cliff, or the top of a hill, and you'll quickly be >400ft above the ground. AFAIK there have been no incidents of model gliders threatening full-size aircraft.

The inability to define a drone in law has been the focus of hundreds of regulators across the EU for a couple of years now.  Fortunately, sense has prevailed and the Regs as drafted recognise that it's not the legitimate model flyers who are causing the problem, but those who can buy a drone over the internet, set it up to fly itself, and then breach the exisiting laws without knowing that there even were laws that they needed to know about.

TheLurker OTP may be along shortly - he flies much smaller models than me (because he's a much more skilled modeller!), but some will be over the 250g limit that would have applied.

So, PaulF, your question was very well put and poses a significant problem in law.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: matthew on 24 December, 2018, 07:05:05 pm
You can imagine that there’s a chap in a back office somewhere that’s been ranting about Drone attacks forever and has continued to receive the same answer ‘shut up Terry (who is head of aerial attack prevention), that’s obviously not going to happen’, then on Thursday morning, the boss has come down to the department and turned to John (who is head of tunnelling attack prevention) and said ‘John, this can’t happen again, here’s £5 million, get whatever we need’

So true...

No need to tunnel under the gatwiick runways, it's already been done and carries the river Mole in two large culverts if my memory serves.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Tim Hall on 24 December, 2018, 07:12:41 pm
You can imagine that there’s a chap in a back office somewhere that’s been ranting about Drone attacks forever and has continued to receive the same answer ‘shut up Terry (who is head of aerial attack prevention), that’s obviously not going to happen’, then on Thursday morning, the boss has come down to the department and turned to John (who is head of tunnelling attack prevention) and said ‘John, this can’t happen again, here’s £5 million, get whatever we need’

So true...

No need to tunnel under the gatwiick runways, it's already been done and carries the river Mole in two large culverts if my memory serves.
There's a cable duct <somewhere> at Gatwick,  where a ferret was employed to drag a line to facilitate cable pulling.

BITD, Gatwick had a futuristic terminal which the aircraft could park round, nose first. This was served by a tunnel from the adjacent railway station.  We sometimes ride past the  old terminal building on the FNRTTC (it's The Beehive), but the station has been relocated a few chains North. The tunnel is still there.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 24 December, 2018, 07:28:52 pm
It all comes back to the difficulty of determining what is a drone in law.

TBH, that doesn't sound like the issue...


Quote
Fortunately, sense has prevailed and the Regs as drafted recognise that it's not the legitimate model flyers who are causing the problem, but those who can buy a drone over the internet, set it up to fly itself, and then breach the exisiting laws without knowing that there even were laws that they needed to know about.

Ie. it's not about any particular technology, but rather that the barrier to entry has become so low that any ignorant or malicious person can (and therefore will) do stupid shit with UAVs, much like they can and do with the Internet[1].

If you could buy a flight-ready combustion-engined R/C aeroplane for £30 in Tescos, we have the same sort of problems (likely minus a few fingers) with those.

You can't put technological progress back in the bottle, so I expect to eventually see regulation on sales, akin to those on lasers or air guns.  "No problem with the batteries, but you can only buy these rotors when you show your commercial drone operator's licence or provide proof of model aircraft club membership." doesn't seem unreasonable.  Won't stop a determined bad actor, but should keep a lid on the stupid oik factor.



[1] Happy 9246th of September, everyone.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: fuaran on 24 December, 2018, 08:01:49 pm
Also a few fixed-wing 'drones' available now. They seem to be getting cheaper, and easier to fly. Some with cameras and FPV.
Compared to quadcopters, they have advantages of battery life/range and speed.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andytheflyer on 24 December, 2018, 08:16:30 pm

Quote
Fortunately, sense has prevailed and the Regs as drafted recognise that it's not the legitimate model flyers who are causing the problem, but those who can buy a drone over the internet, set it up to fly itself, and then breach the exisiting laws without knowing that there even were laws that they needed to know about.

Ie. it's not about any particular technology, but rather that the barrier to entry has become so low that any ignorant or malicious person can (and therefore will) do stupid shit with UAVs

If you could buy a flight-ready combustion-engined R/C aeroplane for £30 in Tescos, we have the same sort of problems (likely minus a few fingers) with those.


Exactly.  You can buy relatively cheap fixed r/c wing models off Fleabay or online and people have learned to fly them largely through practicing with a flight sim.  You could make a nuisance of yourself with one of these - but for some reason those people don't.  Maybe that's because the level of skill required to fly a fixed wing is much higher - even with gyros on the three main controls.  Plus, you need more room to take off and land.  To deliberately fly an r/c model into a full size would take a very high level of skill.  I suspect the attraction of the drone is the camera and the ability to hover, hang around in a small space and capture images, which you generally can't do with a moving platform such as a fixed wing model aeroplane.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 24 December, 2018, 08:27:56 pm
I suppose it's just that multi-rotor helicopters are capable of hovering and naturally (and cheaply) lend themselves to full abstraction of the control system.  There's now a reasonable expectation that you can make one do what you want it to without a high degree of skill.  While you could probably achieve the same with a traditional helicopter and the right control system, it would be much more fiddly and expensive.  Fixed wing aircraft are always going to have to fly like fixed wing aircraft (or at least ballistically), and ornithopters[1] are far too finicky.

I think off-the-shelf drones are, in target market terms, closer to kites than traditional model aircraft[2]:  There are enthusiasts doing clever things with their own builds, but they're generally perceived as something you can simply buy and have fun flying around until you break it; just stay away from overhead cables.  Without the dependence on wind or the limitations of string.  I might be wrong, but I get the impression that affordable camera drones killed off most people's interest in kite photography almost overnight.


[1] I had a cheap R/C bat ornithopter that was a random inappropriate Christmas present.  TBH, I was impressed that it flew as well as it did, but it was the sort of thing that really needed a large indoor space, and the control was limited.  It did a reasonable impression of a startled bat trapped indoors.
[2] This seems related to my curmudgeonly rant about the increasing popularity of ride-on electric vehicles for small children who would traditionally have had a bicycle or tricycle.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 25 December, 2018, 12:36:22 am
I suppose it's just that multi-rotor helicopters are capable of hovering and naturally (and cheaply) lend themselves to full abstraction of the control system.  There's now a reasonable expectation that you can make one do what you want it to without a high degree of skill.  While you could probably achieve the same with a traditional helicopter and the right control system, it would be much more fiddly and expensive.  Fixed wing aircraft are always going to have to fly like fixed wing aircraft (or at least ballistically), and ornithopters[1] are far too finicky.

I think off-the-shelf drones are, in target market terms, closer to kites than traditional model aircraft[2]:  There are enthusiasts doing clever things with their own builds, but they're generally perceived as something you can simply buy and have fun flying around until you break it; just stay away from overhead cables.  Without the dependence on wind or the limitations of string.  I might be wrong, but I get the impression that affordable camera drones killed off most people's interest in kite photography almost overnight.


[1] I had a cheap R/C bat ornithopter that was a random inappropriate Christmas present.  TBH, I was impressed that it flew as well as it did, but it was the sort of thing that really needed a large indoor space, and the control was limited.  It did a reasonable impression of a startled bat trapped indoors.
[2] This seems related to my curmudgeonly rant about the increasing popularity of ride-on electric vehicles for small children who would traditionally have had a bicycle or tricycle.

My bold.
Yup.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 25 December, 2018, 07:59:34 am
While you could probably achieve the same with a traditional helicopter and the right control system, it would be much more fiddly and expensive. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56lVKVMexVs

This is my prototype heli on an autonomous survey mission.  Flybar-less systems are quite simple to setup, although it does require some understanding of how helicopters work.
They are far more efficient than multi-rotors and can handle conditions that VTOL fixed wings can't. Plan to start selling this model early next year. (And already got a larger 2-stroke model in development).

It's also made me realize just how silly the new 'multi-rotor passenger' vehicles are.  They are, as mentioned, very inefficient and if you lose power, you die. With a helicopter, at least you have the chance of auto-rotating.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andytheflyer on 25 December, 2018, 08:17:12 am
That's very impressive Jakob.  I've not seen any autonomous helicopters to date. I suppose it was easier for the drone developers to provide directional control through multi-rotors rather than the conventional rotary wing systems, hence the drones got there first.  It requires a lot of skill and much practice to fly a model helicopter.  And deep pockets!

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TheLurker on 25 December, 2018, 09:01:36 am
This is my prototype heli on an autonomous survey mission.
Dead impressed.  Aerial footage from a camera drone?

Hearking back to Andy's post about the proposed regs for model aeroplanes etc.  The 400' limit may be a problem for gliders other than slope soarers.  Those I muck around with are typically sub 100g and a bungee or hand-tow launch can easily put the 'plane at 100' plus. Some people can also can also get discus launch models to that sort of height.  All you need then is a good thermal (and they're not that difficult to find in a good summer) and 400' is suddenly not that high.  $Deity knows how the model rocketry bods are going to cope.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 25 December, 2018, 11:26:29 am
Yeah, A friend with a Mavic grabbed the footage.

Model rocketry got exemptions from the 400' limit and are limited to specific locations and times. (And NOTAMs are usually issued).
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: mattc on 27 December, 2018, 08:55:37 am
...

It's also made me realize just how silly the new 'multi-rotor passenger' vehicles are.  They are, as mentioned, very inefficient and if you lose power, you die. With a helicopter, at least you have the chance of auto-rotating.
This is off-topic, and purely for my curiosity:

why don't the multi-rotors auto-rotate?  Are they a fundamentally different type of rotor?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: JonBuoy on 27 December, 2018, 09:48:41 am
Auto-rotation and subsequent landing in a helicopter requires variable pitch high inertia rotor blades.  Drone rotors aren't particularly high inertia and, as far as I am aware, do not have variable pitch.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 27 December, 2018, 01:02:39 pm
They are, on the other hand, mechanically simple.  I suppose there's a reasonable safety argument for a multi-rotor system that can cope with the failure of n rotors.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 27 December, 2018, 01:25:59 pm
...

It's also made me realize just how silly the new 'multi-rotor passenger' vehicles are.  They are, as mentioned, very inefficient and if you lose power, you die. With a helicopter, at least you have the chance of auto-rotating.
This is off-topic, and purely for my curiosity:

why don't the multi-rotors auto-rotate?  Are they a fundamentally different type of rotor?

Auto-rotation varies with forward speed. A helicopter that's hovering will descend at a higher rate than one which is gliding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 27 December, 2018, 01:53:03 pm
In the absence of a freewheel, I expect the directly coupled electric motor would present too much mechanical load (either through eddy currents, or dissipating power in some failed-short semiconductor or whatever) to allow the rotor to usefully autorotate, anyway.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 27 December, 2018, 02:10:28 pm
They are, on the other hand, mechanically simple.  I suppose there's a reasonable safety argument for a multi-rotor system that can cope with the failure of n rotors.
That would depend on the configuration and I suspect would require the number of rotors to exceed 4. There would also need to be an over power provision in each rotor.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: mattc on 27 December, 2018, 02:16:28 pm
So I'd be safest in one of these, yeah?

(https://img.newatlas.com/lift-aircraft-manned-multirotor-drone-experience-22.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&ch=Width%2CDPR&fit=crop&h=347&q=60&rect=0%2C99%2C1695%2C953&w=616&s=73f850256cc701a8c923877bda796809)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 27 December, 2018, 02:18:56 pm
So I'd be safest in one of these, yeah?

(https://img.newatlas.com/lift-aircraft-manned-multirotor-drone-experience-22.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&ch=Width%2CDPR&fit=crop&h=347&q=60&rect=0%2C99%2C1695%2C953&w=616&s=73f850256cc701a8c923877bda796809)

Safety is a relative concept when you're referring to helicopters  :P
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Ben T on 27 December, 2018, 04:57:01 pm
We were having a discussion about this at work and I was wondering why planes couldn't just continue anyway despite the possible drone(s) ie why is it any more dangerous than a bird.. One bloke reckoned if a drone hit a plane's wing and it caught it just right so the rotor came into contact with the wing, it could slice through the wing and completely shear it from the body of the plane. True, or bollocks?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 27 December, 2018, 05:14:52 pm
We were having a discussion about this at work and I was wondering why planes couldn't just continue anyway despite the possible drone(s) ie why is it any more dangerous than a bird.. One bloke reckoned if a drone hit a plane's wing and it caught it just right so the rotor came into contact with the wing, it could slice through the wing and completely shear it from the body of the plane. True, or bollocks?
Bollox. But that’s not the whole problem. Commercial Aeroplanes tent to be big complex machines, often with lots of people on board, and drones tend to be many varietied both in complexity and size, and more importantly, capable of carrying a wide selection of payloads. The drones in the equation would also be unidentified and essentially unidentifiable. This means that the risk is essentially unquantifiable in the short term and the only safe thing to do is shutdown operations until you can gather more information and pad out your risk assessments.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 27 December, 2018, 05:43:05 pm
We were having a discussion about this at work and I was wondering why planes couldn't just continue anyway despite the possible drone(s) ie why is it any more dangerous than a bird..

I don't think it is more dangerous than a bird of equivalent mass.  They go to rather a lot of effort to avoid birds flying around airports already.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rogerzilla on 27 December, 2018, 06:04:33 pm
One concern is the battery; most of a drone is plastic and will shatter if hit by a plane at 200mph (as do birds in small numbers), but the battery is tougher and could make a hole in something, maybe a fan blade.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: hatler on 27 December, 2018, 06:09:37 pm
One concern is the battery; most of a drone is plastic and will shatter if hit by a plane at 200mph (as do birds in small numbers), but the battery is tougher and could make a hole in something, maybe a fan blade.
Or indeed the windscreen.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: hatler on 27 December, 2018, 06:10:49 pm
And, for a brief while, I worked in the world of aeroplane canopies, and the testing thereof. Having foreign objects come through the screen and bonk you on the nose is not desirable.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Gattopardo on 27 December, 2018, 06:20:22 pm
Or were there any drones at all?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rogerzilla on 27 December, 2018, 07:07:41 pm
"These aren't the drones you're looking for."
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Gattopardo on 27 December, 2018, 07:16:16 pm
Move along
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: mattc on 27 December, 2018, 07:18:13 pm
We were having a discussion about this at work and I was wondering why planes couldn't just continue anyway despite the possible drone(s) ie why is it any more dangerous than a bird.. One bloke reckoned if a drone hit a plane's wing and it caught it just right so the rotor came into contact with the wing, it could slice through the wing and completely shear it from the body of the plane. True, or bollocks?
Bollox. But that’s not the whole problem. Commercial Aeroplanes tent to be big complex machines, often with lots of people on board, and drones tend to be many varietied both in complexity and size, and more importantly, capable of carrying a wide selection of payloads. The drones in the equation would also be unidentified and essentially unidentifiable. This means that the risk is essentially unquantifiable in the short term and the only safe thing to do is shutdown operations until you can gather more information and pad out your risk assessments.
Doing the risk assessment doesn't make anyone safer.

But yeah, someone will need to *show* that they've assessed the risk, that's the way current HSE legislation works. What IS stupid is not assessing the risk of drones a loooooong time ago. There are many risks that are hard to quantify in the real world. It's impossible to rule out the firing of a SAM somewhere nearby tomorrow - but it's vv unlikely. I'm pretty sure that the Drone Damage Assessment would say:
"collision with small object producing medium damage to plane" - "probablity of impact: very very low"
"collision with small object producing very minor damage to plane" - "probablity of impact: very low"

In which case someone would make the standard gut-based desicion, and unless they were extremely risk-averse - for political, or weird job-security issues - they'd probably say:
"Carry on, but let's keep an eye on things."

[See also: the hundreds of government sites that have had big "Heightened Awareness" signs at the entrance for about 5 years ... ]
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Gattopardo on 27 December, 2018, 08:30:06 pm
They are, on the other hand, mechanically simple.  I suppose there's a reasonable safety argument for a multi-rotor system that can cope with the failure of n rotors.

Chinook seems to fit that bill.

Proof being I am still alive after chinook crashed (unplanned landing with damage to the vehicle) and was saved by the fact the rotors auto rotated.  There was a person who used his whole body weight hold a lever down in the cabin.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 27 December, 2018, 08:34:00 pm
They are, on the other hand, mechanically simple.  I suppose there's a reasonable safety argument for a multi-rotor system that can cope with the failure of n rotors.

Chinook seems to fit that bill.

Fairly sure a the rotors of a Chinook operate as a single point of failure.  Aren't they coupled so they don't end up bashing each other?  And even if that wasn't a problem, with a single rotor operating there'd be nothing to counteract the torque, so it would have to go into autorotation anyway.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: hatler on 27 December, 2018, 08:41:22 pm
With only a single rotor on a Chinook operating surely one end would drop, and then the working rotor wouldn't be much use.

But as Kim says, the rotors are linked.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 27 December, 2018, 11:06:40 pm
Chinook rotors overlap and interleave and I believe are physically interlinked. The chinook also has twin engines. Even so, given their propensity for falling out of the sky, I’d have to be in a pretty bad place to willingly get on board one.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 28 December, 2018, 04:54:30 am
So I'd be safest in one of these, yeah?

(https://img.newatlas.com/lift-aircraft-manned-multirotor-drone-experience-22.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&ch=Width%2CDPR&fit=crop&h=347&q=60&rect=0%2C99%2C1695%2C953&w=616&s=73f850256cc701a8c923877bda796809)

Again, very inefficient compared to a single rotor. Coaxials are slowly making a comeback in the kit/experimental category.  A friend of mine just bought one of these:
http://eng.rd-heli.ru/

As for 'why planes didn't fly', one is that aviation is *extremely* risk adverse. Common saying is "If there's any doubt, there's no doubt'.

Drones can do significant damage to an airliner. How much, is really hard to say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH0V7kp-xg0

Here's a video of a typical 'consumer' drone hitting a Bonanza wing. It got some criticism, as the drone was fired at 200mph, a speed a fair bit above a typical approach speed, but still. Shit can happen and you hit the wrong bits, things can go wrong. The initial reports was that it was a 'pro' level drone, which can be anything from 5kg up (The Phantom is about 1.5kg, I think).
 So, in that light, yeah, stopping operations was reasonable. Stopping it for 2 days, based on spurious reports? Not reasonable at all and I still believe it the decision to stay closed was agenda driven.
I still don't understand why there has not been a single picture of the drone. This is UK, forchrissake, the country with probably the highest level of surveillance in the world.

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andytheflyer on 28 December, 2018, 08:37:49 am
I still don't understand why there has not been a single picture of the drone. This is UK, forchrissake, the country with probably the highest level of surveillance in the world.

'cos there wasn't one...…..
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TheLurker on 28 December, 2018, 08:40:12 am
One concern is the battery; most of a drone is plastic and will shatter if hit by a plane at 200mph (as do birds in small numbers), but the battery is tougher and could make a hole in something, maybe a fan blade.
And with many (most?) modern batteries there is always the unpleasant possibility of it rapidly converting itself into an incendiary device on impact.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: mattc on 28 December, 2018, 09:36:37 am
With current tech, you could probably model quite accurately how easy/hard it is to deliberately hit an airliner with a remote-control 5kg drone, with the pilot outside the security perimeter. (couple of km?)

(that's assuming the worst case i.e. the turrurists aiming to hit one, rather than just create disruption.)


Anyway, it's not even in the news now - what drones??
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 30 December, 2018, 06:59:35 am
So, erhhh
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/gatwick-closure-some-sightings-may-have-been-of-police-drones-2018-12
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Wowbagger on 30 December, 2018, 09:13:07 am
That's straight out of "The Man who was Thursday".
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 30 December, 2018, 05:49:44 pm
I still don't understand why there has not been a single picture of the drone. This is UK, forchrissake, the country with probably the highest level of surveillance in the world.

'cos there wasn't one...…..

This, 100%. Not one picture, not one piece of evidence that there was an actual drone (that didn't belong to the authorities, anyway). Of course, now they can't admit it, so this stupid charade will roll on until everyone forgets about it.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 30 December, 2018, 06:10:47 pm
I still don't understand why there has not been a single picture of the drone. This is UK, forchrissake, the country with probably the highest level of surveillance in the world.

'cos there wasn't one...…..

This, 100%. Not one picture, not one piece of evidence that there was an actual drone (that didn't belong to the authorities, anyway). Of course, now they can't admit it, so this stupid charade will roll on until everyone forgets about it.
Thats the blame culture for you. Hide the facts so we can’t learn from our mistakes.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 03 January, 2019, 09:14:55 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/03/heathrow-and-gatwick-millions-anti-drone-technology

Well, at least someone got something out of this.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 04 January, 2019, 09:21:49 am
Hopefully, they invested some of this cash in devices that can detect a drone actually exists because all the anti-drone technology in the world won't stop a non-existent one.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 04 January, 2019, 12:39:28 pm
But the manufacturer claims it's 100% effective against imaginary drones!   ;D
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 04 January, 2019, 12:55:01 pm
Have we reached the point yet where the last two words of this thread's title can be removed without any loss of context?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: matthew on 04 January, 2019, 08:29:21 pm
Can we wait until my colleagues who were due to fly out the day after have been able to confirm they got home to their families.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 08 January, 2019, 03:10:22 am
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/08/police-handed-new-anti-drone-powers-after-gatwick-disruption

So, rules introduced to deal with non-existing drones?
I'm also sure that these new rules would most definitely prevent any such future attack. ::-)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: PaulF on 08 January, 2019, 06:37:42 am
Only briefly read the BBC version of the article but some of the changes seem sensible. For example currently it legal to fly a drone at 400’ 1km away from an airport which would put you in conflict with aircraft coming into land.  The new rules will remove this inconsistency which was one of BALPA’s concerns.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 08 January, 2019, 06:44:08 am
Only briefly read the BBC version of the article but some of the changes seem sensible. For example currently it legal to fly a drone at 400’ 1km away from an airport which would put you in conflict with aircraft coming into land.  The new rules will remove this inconsistency which was one of BALPA’s concerns.

While I agree that the distance is short, what aircraft is at 400' altitude 1km from the threshold?. I'm also pretty certain that interfering with manned traffic was already illegal, so all it's doing is making something illegal...well, illegal.

They'd be far better of making drone identification mandatory for airline pilots...then the number of incidents would drop dramatically.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: JonBuoy on 08 January, 2019, 07:10:01 am
Only briefly read the BBC version of the article but some of the changes seem sensible. For example currently it legal to fly a drone at 400’ 1km away from an airport which would put you in conflict with aircraft coming into land.  The new rules will remove this inconsistency which was one of BALPA’s concerns.

While I agree that the distance is short, what aircraft is at 400' altitude 1km from the threshold?. I'm also pretty certain that interfering with manned traffic was already illegal, so all it's doing is making something illegal...well, illegal.

They'd be far better of making drone identification mandatory for airline pilots...then the number of incidents would drop dramatically.

A glider.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Greenbank on 08 January, 2019, 08:08:44 am
Only briefly read the BBC version of the article but some of the changes seem sensible. For example currently it legal to fly a drone at 400’ 1km away from an airport which would put you in conflict with aircraft coming into land.  The new rules will remove this inconsistency which was one of BALPA’s concerns.

While I agree that the distance is short, what aircraft is at 400' altitude 1km from the threshold?

Typical approach slope is 3o (from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_approach_(aeronautics) ).

1km * sin( 3 deg ) = 171.7 ft

Touchdown points on the runway aren't much further than 1km from the airport boundary so pretty much every aircraft landing at either, say, Heathrow or Gatwick is going to be well under 400ft 1km out.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: PaulF on 08 January, 2019, 08:13:48 am
Only briefly read the BBC version of the article but some of the changes seem sensible. For example currently it legal to fly a drone at 400’ 1km away from an airport which would put you in conflict with aircraft coming into land.  The new rules will remove this inconsistency which was one of BALPA’s concerns.

While I agree that the distance is short, what aircraft is at 400' altitude 1km from the threshold?. I'm also pretty certain that interfering with manned traffic was already illegal, so all it's doing is making something illegal...well, illegal.

They'd be far better of making drone identification mandatory for airline pilots...then the number of incidents would drop dramatically.

More or less all of them on a standard glidepath. BALPA seem to agree

Quote
“Drones need to be kept well away from other aircraft. BALPA has presented the case for policies which will ensure sensible separation between drones and aircraft, including helicopters, which we don’t yet have.

“A drone at 400ft, 1km away from an airport is still directly in the flight path and that is plainly not safe and yet is allowed under the new legislation.

“Therefore, BALPA will continue to argue for a drone exclusion zone around airports of 5km in the interests of safety.”

https://www.balpa.org/Media-Centre/Press-Releases/Pilots-respond-to-Government-announcement-on-drone (https://www.balpa.org/Media-Centre/Press-Releases/Pilots-respond-to-Government-announcement-on-drone)


EDIT Beaten to it by Greenbank

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 08 January, 2019, 08:13:58 am
As is usual with knee jerk changes to the law it misses two fundemental points. The (in this case alleged) actions causing the change were already illegal under current law and the already overworked police will no more be able to police the new laws than they were able to enforce the old ones.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Mr Larrington on 08 January, 2019, 09:40:34 am
Paging TimC...
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 08 January, 2019, 05:51:24 pm
Predictably, it's now possibly happening or maybe not at Heathrow... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46803713
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 08 January, 2019, 06:31:17 pm
You're right. 400' would be in the glide path of of most aircraft. (Although not on a powered approach).

However, afaik, all 'near misses' reported by BALPAs members have turned out not to be drones.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 08 January, 2019, 06:46:41 pm
New reports of drone sightings at Heathrow currently incoming.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46803713
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andrewc on 08 January, 2019, 06:54:01 pm
Flights resumed (for now)   https://www.flightradar24.com/51.47,-0.47/12
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TheLurker on 08 January, 2019, 07:08:29 pm
As is usual with knee jerk changes...
These changes were in train before the fuss at Gatwick and have been through a fair bit of review.  Having had the very briefest dekko at them they don't seem unreasonable.   

They extend the drone prohibition zone (oooh euphonious) to something that the pilots think safe and the polis get to levy on the spot fines of up to 100 notes and more punitive options are, AIUI, available.  Not so sure about the registration requirements for drone owners, suspect that will turn out to be expensive and unworkable but there you go.

As for laws not stopping illegal activity; if you take that to absurd lengths you'd throw away the entire judicial code because every* law ever written has been broken.  The best you can ever hope for is that thinking types will note that there are rules and obey them.  As for the unthinking and downright wilful? If (big if) they're caught then they get punished, repeatedly if needs be.  Seems to more or less work with most laws.

One overview here  : https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/01/08/new_uk_drone_laws/


*Probably.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 08 January, 2019, 08:35:43 pm
 Registration in the US was $5. (Then a bunch of lawsuits stopped the Gov't from requiring it, but I think it's coming back).
Similar system is coming here in Canada (announced tomorrow actually).
 FWIW, they had, at one point, a 9km (radius) exclusion around any airfield here, which basically made it impossible to fly anywhere. It's been reduced to 5km and will be reduced further to 3.5km.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 January, 2019, 08:39:47 pm
Extending the known none-drone zone.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andytheflyer on 09 January, 2019, 08:20:18 am
Registration in the US was $5. (Then a bunch of lawsuits stopped the Gov't from requiring it, but I think it's coming back).
Similar system is coming here in Canada (announced tomorrow actually).
 FWIW, they had, at one point, a 9km (radius) exclusion around any airfield here, which basically made it impossible to fly anywhere. It's been reduced to 5km and will be reduced further to 3.5km.
Thx for the reminder - I'd forgotten where the FAA were up to on this.

In Canada, does the airfield prohibition include GA airfields?  There are a number of model flying clubs in the UK (mine included) that operate on active GA airfields.  Our club members have to be associate members of the full-size club, annd be insured for 3rd party risk (through the British Model Flying Association) and it all works very well.  We fly models off a disused tarmac/concrete runway and we have rules and procedures for keeping out of the full size aircraft's way.  We've been flying on that site since 1964, with (AFAIK) no incidents.  The full size guys also know that if there's a car parked on that disused runway, there are likely to be models about.

I suppose that in Canada you have a lot more room so maybe it's easier to find flying sites, but they are in very short supply in the UK.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 10 January, 2019, 07:27:26 am
The rules just got updated here today. 5km airfields, 1.5km heliports.  Some MAAC (Canadian RC organisations) fields have had dispensation, but they just lost all of their exemptions, so I'm not what will happen. 
New rules are that everyone (Traditional RC and 'drone' users) has to take basic online exam and register their aircrafts. ($5 each).
The rules for more advanced commercial operations have also been greatly simplified (require advanced licence).
Space wise, it depends on where you live.  If you're like me, in Vancouver, it's very hard to find a spot where you can legally fly, although it's much better than the 9km zone they used to have. (Which made it impossible to fly legally).

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 31 May, 2019, 03:12:43 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48470623
I take it that it almost certainly wasn't XR at Gatwick but they'll almost certainly get blamed for it retrospectively.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 31 May, 2019, 03:33:32 pm
There were no drones at Gatwick, they just won't admit it now. XR should realise they can save money by not having to buy actual drones, just claim to have seen one.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 31 May, 2019, 03:53:22 pm
There were no drones at Gatwick, they just won't admit it now. XR should realise they can save money by not having to buy actual drones, just claim to have seen one.

s/claim to have seen/leak plans to fly/

I think that's exactly what they're doing.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andrewc on 14 June, 2020, 01:09:58 pm
https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2020-06-14/gatwick-drone-arrest-couple-receive-200-000-payout-from-sussex-police/
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ElyDave on 14 June, 2020, 10:46:56 pm
Beeb article had it at 55k damages, and the rest legal costs.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: archy on 15 June, 2020, 08:33:36 am
Quote
police have said that some reported drone sightings may have been Sussex Police's own craft.
..

[The couple] say despite the apology they still have "no explanation" for why they were held "incommunicado" for 36 hours.



Quote
Mr Miller also confirmed the force commissioned a "thorough independent review" of the drone incident.

A secret review?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 15 June, 2020, 09:36:02 am
Good god, they all love pouring money into this. Just admit it: there were no drones.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Adam on 27 June, 2020, 09:52:45 pm
I think there was a police one, but they didn't realise it was one of their own.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Polar Bear on 28 June, 2020, 08:17:46 am
Looking at this cynically the so-called drone incursion allowed the government a convenient excuse to strengthen drone laws in an attempt to further control the masses on the back of a problem that simply didn't exist.

How many people in honest reality have had an issue with a drone being flown near them that can be attributed to a private operator? 
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TheLurker on 28 June, 2020, 10:28:46 am
Quote from: Polar Bear
Looking at this cynically ... on the back of a problem that simply didn't exist.

My (cynical) viewpoint is that it was more about reserving the airspace for commercial exploitation by Amazon & its fellow travellers.  I suspect the Police & Prison Services were also quite keen for it to get the nod because neds had taken to using drones to get contraband of various sorts into prisons and it gives them another stick to beat perpetrators with.  Of course people smuggling stuff into prisons aren't going to be queueing up to take the BMFA/CAA competency tests, but that aspect has already been done to death earlier in the thread.

Quote from: Polar Bear
How many people in honest reality have had an issue with a drone being flown near them that can be attributed to a private operator?
If Amazon et al do go in for drone delivery in a big way I suspect the answer to that question will be, "just about everybody".

Am _so_ glad that I only build and fly sub 250g Free Flight stuff.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Polar Bear on 28 June, 2020, 10:54:36 am
I was intrigued to see dji produce a drone at 249 grams and even more impressed when I saw one in use.  Reading further I see that they even have a version to comply with Japan's sub 200g laws.

It will not be long before more manufacturers such as Parrot? produce similar versions so I guess that our overlords and dictators will then change the rules again.

I was thinking of buying a dji Mavic Mini just to play with.  I always wanted a radio controlled  helicopter as a kid and having a camera too seems like the opportunity for some great fun and interesting photographic memories when visiting lovely remote places.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Redlight on 28 June, 2020, 11:01:47 am
Looking at this cynically the so-called drone incursion allowed the government a convenient excuse to strengthen drone laws in an attempt to further control the masses on the back of a problem that simply didn't exist.

How many people in honest reality have had an issue with a drone being flown near them that can be attributed to a private operator?

I have. A couple of summers ago one flew very low over the back gardens in our street. It wasn't clear where it came from, but we suspect a small block of flats with balconies nearby.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 28 June, 2020, 12:35:18 pm
Looking at this cynically the so-called drone incursion allowed the government a convenient excuse to strengthen drone laws in an attempt to further control the masses on the back of a problem that simply didn't exist.

How many people in honest reality have had an issue with a drone being flown near them that can be attributed to a private operator? 

This ‘problem that doesn’t exist’ came close to colliding with aircraft on 139 occasions in 2018, and 125 in 2019. That may be a risk you are willing to take. As a pilot, I am not.

https://www.airproxboard.org.uk/Reports-and-analysis/Statistics/Airprox-involving-UAS-Drones/
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andytheflyer on 28 June, 2020, 01:04:49 pm
The drone issues were part of the reason I packed in radio control model building and flying over the winter, after 25 years of technical challenge, enjoyment and fulfilment. I sold or gave away almost everything.

The model aircraft hobby has been well organised and largely without adverse incident for decades.  We have our own internal voluntary certification and competency programmes, well taken up.  We also had approval from the CAA to build and fly very, very large models (like >100 kg and > 20 ft wingspans), well capable of being a hazard to full size aircraft if flown irresponsibly.  But they aren't.

Some of us even flew off active general aviation facilities and clubs like mine, were seen as part of the full-size private aviation scene.  We abided by the rules and even trained full-size pilots to fly models (harder, they said).

I did not have to undertake any additional competency tests to comply with the drone regulations, I was already deemed competent by the regulatory authorities. and have been for many years.  Even the additional fee was not a real issue.  The real issue for me was that I didn't want to be part of a hobby now being subsumed into regulation forced into being by idiots, and largely unenforceable anyway.  I exercised my democratic right to opt out.

And no, there were no drones at Heathrow or Gatwick, other than the police ones that it is.  Go ahead, Plod and CAA, prove it.  No you can't, because they didn't exist and you don't have the honesty to say so.

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Polar Bear on 28 June, 2020, 02:17:20 pm
Looking at this cynically the so-called drone incursion allowed the government a convenient excuse to strengthen drone laws in an attempt to further control the masses on the back of a problem that simply didn't exist.

How many people in honest reality have had an issue with a drone being flown near them that can be attributed to a private operator? 

This ‘problem that doesn’t exist’ came close to colliding with aircraft on 139 occasions in 2018, and 125 in 2019. That may be a risk you are willing to take. As a pilot, I am not.

https://www.airproxboard.org.uk/Reports-and-analysis/Statistics/Airprox-involving-UAS-Drones/

What I was referring to Tim was the problem of the apparent drone at Gatwick which fired off all the shenanigans.  I accept that drones can be a hazard to aircraft and a greater level of control may not be a bad thing but sometimes the legislators lift their knee into the groin of reasonableness in order to look like they are effective when they are not simply to placate their red-faced, vein-popping angry indignant supporters.

People with malicious intent or who are totally selfish or ignorant tend not to follow laws and rules regardless of their existence.  Using a mobile phone whilst driving springs to mind.

Out of interest, do you know how many drone strikes there have been?  And no, I am not suggesting that because the total might be low that it is not an issue.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: davelodwig on 28 June, 2020, 04:19:50 pm
Looking at this cynically the so-called drone incursion allowed the government a convenient excuse to strengthen drone laws in an attempt to further control the masses on the back of a problem that simply didn't exist.

How many people in honest reality have had an issue with a drone being flown near them that can be attributed to a private operator?

I have. A couple of summers ago one flew very low over the back gardens in our street. It wasn't clear where it came from, but we suspect a small block of flats with balconies nearby.

Nothing 32 grams of number 6 shot wouldn't sort out.  Most of them round here are toys, though I have seen the farm drone surveying the fields out Miserden way but that thing is huge.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: fuaran on 28 June, 2020, 04:37:53 pm
This ‘problem that doesn’t exist’ came close to colliding with aircraft on 139 occasions in 2018, and 125 in 2019. That may be a risk you are willing to take. As a pilot, I am not.

https://www.airproxboard.org.uk/Reports-and-analysis/Statistics/Airprox-involving-UAS-Drones/
Plenty of reports by pilots. How many of them actually exist? How many of them were drones? How many were actually close the aircraft?
Seems to be a lot of reports of drones several thousand feet up.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 28 June, 2020, 04:52:09 pm
Looking at this cynically the so-called drone incursion allowed the government a convenient excuse to strengthen drone laws in an attempt to further control the masses on the back of a problem that simply didn't exist.

How many people in honest reality have had an issue with a drone being flown near them that can be attributed to a private operator? 

This ‘problem that doesn’t exist’ came close to colliding with aircraft on 139 occasions in 2018, and 125 in 2019. That may be a risk you are willing to take. As a pilot, I am not.

https://www.airproxboard.org.uk/Reports-and-analysis/Statistics/Airprox-involving-UAS-Drones/

What I was referring to Tim was the problem of the apparent drone at Gatwick which fired off all the shenanigans.  I accept that drones can be a hazard to aircraft and a greater level of control may not be a bad thing but sometimes the legislators lift their knee into the groin of reasonableness in order to look like they are effective when they are not simply to placate their red-faced, vein-popping angry indignant supporters.

People with malicious intent or who are totally selfish or ignorant tend not to follow laws and rules regardless of their existence.  Using a mobile phone whilst driving springs to mind.

Out of interest, do you know how many drone strikes there have been?  And no, I am not suggesting that because the total might be low that it is not an issue.

I have no idea what the situation actually was at Gatwick, but I don't doubt that there was at least one large drone spotted over the airfield. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that it was operated by the Police. As for actual drone collisions, this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UAV-related_incidents#Verified_aircraft_collisions) Wiki article relates a few, but I believe there have been more.

Whether legislation will in itself have any effect is moot, but it at least provides specific offences that the Police can use to apprehend potential offenders rather than the more woolly 'hazard to navigation' legislation that previously covered the issue.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 June, 2020, 05:25:54 pm
How many people in honest reality have had an issue with a drone being flown near them that can be attributed to a private operator?

Define issue? I was on the top of A'Dam Lookout, one of the highest public ally accessible places in Amsterdam, a couple of summers back. As I watched the sun set, a small drone came up and flew around the observation deck. A few minutes later we got a close fly by from a much much larger rotary wing craft, with blue flashy lights, and markings suggesting the people inside were polite.

I've also had drones buzz me while riding across the delta works in Zeeland. I'm guessing a cyclist provides them with a nice focal point for their industrial video...

J
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: rogerzilla on 28 June, 2020, 05:29:40 pm
How many people in honest reality have had an issue with a drone being flown near them that can be attributed to a private operator?

Define issue? I was on the top of A'Dam Lookout, one of the highest public ally accessible places in Amsterdam, a couple of summers back. As I watched the sun set, a small drone came up and flew around the observation deck. A few minutes later we got a close fly by from a much much larger rotary wing craft, with blue flashy lights, and markings suggesting the people inside were polite.

I've also had drones buzz me while riding across the delta works in Zeeland. I'm guessing a cyclist provides them with a nice focal point for their industrial video...

J
...which, like all drone videos, will then have indescribably shite background music added before it goes on YouTube.  I am reliably informed that tutorials on Linux shell scripting use equally abhorrent soundtracks.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 28 June, 2020, 05:32:41 pm
A tutorial on shell scripting has no place being a video.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: ian on 29 June, 2020, 10:09:52 am
Looking at this cynically the so-called drone incursion allowed the government a convenient excuse to strengthen drone laws in an attempt to further control the masses on the back of a problem that simply didn't exist.

How many people in honest reality have had an issue with a drone being flown near them that can be attributed to a private operator? 

This ‘problem that doesn’t exist’ came close to colliding with aircraft on 139 occasions in 2018, and 125 in 2019. That may be a risk you are willing to take. As a pilot, I am not.

https://www.airproxboard.org.uk/Reports-and-analysis/Statistics/Airprox-involving-UAS-Drones/

What I was referring to Tim was the problem of the apparent drone at Gatwick which fired off all the shenanigans.  I accept that drones can be a hazard to aircraft and a greater level of control may not be a bad thing but sometimes the legislators lift their knee into the groin of reasonableness in order to look like they are effective when they are not simply to placate their red-faced, vein-popping angry indignant supporters.

People with malicious intent or who are totally selfish or ignorant tend not to follow laws and rules regardless of their existence.  Using a mobile phone whilst driving springs to mind.

Out of interest, do you know how many drone strikes there have been?  And no, I am not suggesting that because the total might be low that it is not an issue.

I have no idea what the situation actually was at Gatwick, but I don't doubt that there was at least one large drone spotted over the airfield. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that it was operated by the Police. As for actual drone collisions, this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UAV-related_incidents#Verified_aircraft_collisions) Wiki article relates a few, but I believe there have been more.

Whether legislation will in itself have any effect is moot, but it at least provides specific offences that the Police can use to apprehend potential offenders rather than the more woolly 'hazard to navigation' legislation that previously covered the issue.

I think there can certainly be problems with drones and the people who fly them, I certainly don't want one to fall on my head, for instance.

There's no evidence that was a particular drone at Gatwick though (I'm sure at some point someone has flown a drone near Gatwick, of course) – despite massive resources thrown at finding it, no one managed even a grainy photograph. It was a textbook example of a 'moral panic' and of course, a sunk cost, they've put so much effort and money into finding something (not to mention arresting and imprisoning people) that wasn't there, they can't acknowledge that it wasn't there.

I doubt it was any kind of anti-drone conspiracy.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Panoramix on 29 June, 2020, 01:40:07 pm
I wouldn't call myself an experienced modeller but I've flown a small model aircraft home built out of foam on the cheap, I found it fun to grok the physics to make it flyable and I've flown it within the law (I think, and this was 8 years ago so before the media realised model aircraft existed and parliaments felt compelled to legislate!). I don't understand why model fliers are vilified like this, sure there are idiots who need to be dealt with but most guys just want to spend some time tinkering. AFAIK no serious accident has happened yet. If the same standard of precaution was applied on the road, cars would be forbidden on roads to protect cyclists, and to follow the logic that the skies belong exclusively to aircraft, birds should also be made extinct!
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Morat on 29 June, 2020, 05:22:10 pm
I get the feeling (and it's nothing more scientific than that) that drones started to be A Menace at the point that they became equipped with cameras. Until then they were a harmless pastime for young geeks and harmless old buffers.

Now they're for Perverts and Invaders of Your Privacy and therefore fair game for the red tops who can proclaim that Drones are used to fly HD cameras over children and Something Must Be Done.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 29 June, 2020, 06:03:37 pm
Nahh, it's because they became cheap enough for oiks to muck about with.  Nobody cared when it was just commercial operators and beardies in their sheds.

(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/lithium_batteries.png) (https://xkcd.com/560/)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andytheflyer on 29 June, 2020, 06:22:24 pm
(..........and this was 8 years ago so before the media realised model aircraft existed and parliaments felt compelled to legislate!). I don't understand why model fliers are vilified like this, sure there are idiots who need to be dealt with but most guys just want to spend some time tinkering. AFAIK no serious accident has happened yet.

Exactly.  The problem was that our legislator 'experts' could not find a way of differentiating multirotor flying machines carrying cameras, from fixed wing or single (or maybe a twin) rotary wing models that do nothing other than challenge the building and flying skills of enthusiasts.  That's what they are paid to do, be creative, find ways of defining offences.

Typical fecking legislators, impact everyone, even the legit guys who've been quietly and safely minding their own business for decades, then you can be sure that you won't get the real villains. 

Bitter, moi?  Nah.  F*ck off HMG, CAA, EASA, etc.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: hatler on 29 June, 2020, 06:26:04 pm
What difference did the regs make to existing RC model flyers ?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TheLurker on 29 June, 2020, 06:40:29 pm
What difference did the regs make to existing RC model flyers ?
In brief:
Further restrictions on max. altitude, weight as well as flight locations.
Additional permits/certificates (which have to be paid for) required.

More (accurate) info. here https://rcc.bmfa.uk  & https://rcc.bmfa.uk/know-the-law

The 400'  max altitude* is a bit of a bugger even for us Free Flight types.  A model without a dethermaliser (DT) can easily go well over 400' if it catches a strong thermal. 

*That's 400' above the head of the remote operator.  Allows for slope soaring.  Subject to AUW of 7Kg and have to be a member of BMFA, SMAE & one or two other model flying orgs.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jurek on 29 June, 2020, 10:46:19 pm
Many years ago, as a yoof,  at a kite festival on Blackheath, I was flying a train of five fairly small (~1m wingspan) delta kites.
The line was marked. I could tell that I had nearly 2km of line in the air. You couldn't see the top kite.
I was approached by a gentleman in a suit.
'How high are you flying those kites?'
I shrugged.
'Im from the CAA and I'm going to have to ask you to bring them down.'
It took a considerable amount of time to reel them in.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TheLurker on 26 January, 2021, 05:20:08 pm
I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Two drone / chopper collisions in under a fortnight. The second pretty bad.

Chile  - https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/

USA -  https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 26 January, 2021, 06:02:25 pm
I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Two drone / chopper collisions in under a fortnight. The second pretty bad.

Chile  - https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/

USA -  https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/

The USA one seems to be utter stupidity. How could you *not* know there was a chopper in the vicinity, unless you were completely deaf (and even then would likely pick up the vibration).

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: jsabine on 26 January, 2021, 06:06:10 pm
I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Two drone / chopper collisions in under a fortnight. The second pretty bad.

Chile  - https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/

USA -  https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/

The USA one seems to be utter stupidity. How could you *not* know there was a chopper in the vicinity, unless you were completely deaf (and even then would likely pick up the vibration).

He appears to have flown the drone *because* there was a police helicopter nearby and he wanted to know what was going on.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 27 January, 2021, 03:17:58 pm
I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Two drone / chopper collisions in under a fortnight. The second pretty bad.

Chile  - https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/

USA -  https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/

The USA one seems to be utter stupidity. How could you *not* know there was a chopper in the vicinity, unless you were completely deaf (and even then would likely pick up the vibration).

He appears to have flown the drone *because* there was a police helicopter nearby and he wanted to know what was going on.

The S-T thread is that way -->
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TheLurker on 21 February, 2021, 08:11:02 am
Astonished that this didn't make the national news at the time.  AAIB report published this week. 

tl;dr 95Kg (yes Kg) drone out of control in class A controlled airspace over Goodwood followed by uncontrolled descent and crash.  No-one hurt.  This time.

News article -   https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/19/airspeeder_alauda_drone_goodwood_investigation/

AAIB Report - https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-alauda-airspeeder-mk-ii-uas-registration-n-slash-a-040719  link to full PDF.

Six months after the "ghost" drone.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: spesh on 21 February, 2021, 01:02:11 pm
Astonished that this didn't make the national news at the time.  AAIB report published this week. 

tl;dr 95Kg (yes Kg) drone out of control in class A controlled airspace over Goodwood followed by uncontrolled descent and crash.  No-one hurt.  This time.

News article -   https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/19/airspeeder_alauda_drone_goodwood_investigation/

AAIB Report - https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-alauda-airspeeder-mk-ii-uas-registration-n-slash-a-040719  link to full PDF.

Six months after the "ghost" drone.

Hoo boy, that's a bit of an omnishambles wrapped up in a fustercluck.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: grams on 21 February, 2021, 01:34:14 pm
The pictures on that report (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/602bb22f8fa8f50388f9f000/Alauda_Airspeeder_Mk_II_UAS_reg_na_03-21.pdf) are mind-blowing. You can operate a 95 kg drone on three Arduinos on prototyping board and the kill switch is a Normally Closed relay with zero monitoring of whether the receiver is reachable until you press the button and nothing happens?

And they were planning to build a human capable drone with the same tech?

I bet Kim has more airworthy stuff powering her doorbell.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 21 February, 2021, 01:45:10 pm
Sadly, an Arduino onna prototyping board is *exactly* what I have powering my doorbell...

(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/alerter/2021_02_21_13_41_25.sized.jpg)

Though it does at least get pinged every 30 seconds to check it's still working, and its flight ceiling is limited by the 5m USB cable.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: andytheflyer on 21 February, 2021, 03:42:56 pm
Astonished that this didn't make the national news at the time.  AAIB report published this week. 

tl;dr 95Kg (yes Kg) drone out of control in class A controlled airspace over Goodwood followed by uncontrolled descent and crash.  No-one hurt.  This time.

News article -   https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/19/airspeeder_alauda_drone_goodwood_investigation/

AAIB Report - https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-alauda-airspeeder-mk-ii-uas-registration-n-slash-a-040719  link to full PDF.

Six months after the "ghost" drone.
I think that if I'd turned up at my model flying club with that, and asked the CFI to check it out before I flew it, I'd have been told to take it home for a re-think. What were they thinking of?  95kg death trap............
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TheLurker on 21 February, 2021, 07:47:14 pm
Quote from: grams
...three Arduinos on prototyping board and the kill switch is a Normally Closed relay with zero monitoring of whether the receiver is reachable...
Leaving aside the atrocious mess they made of the soldering I have no issue with prototyping boards being used in a prototype assuming they've made sure that all the cable runs are set up and components are sufficiently well shielded so that RFI and other cross-talk isn't a problem (aye, right), but an NC relay?  No, I couldn't quite believe that either.  An utterly unforgiveable hanging offence. 
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Panoramix on 21 February, 2021, 09:00:16 pm
I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Two drone / chopper collisions in under a fortnight. The second pretty bad.

Chile  - https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/

USA -  https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/

The helicopter/aircraft always seems to win... Don't ge me wrong I am not condoning reckless flying but I suspect that the press is exaggerating the risk as small hobby drones aren't bigger/heavier than a black gull and there are more gulls flying around!
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 21 February, 2021, 09:03:58 pm
But Gulls tend to be autonomous and have a sense of self preservation. As a hobby dronist I don’t want to see lots of heavy regulation, not least because it doesn’t usually stop the idiots or ne’er do well’s but the idiots do need to be reigned in somehow.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Panoramix on 22 February, 2021, 04:20:42 am
But Gulls tend to be autonomous and have a sense of self preservation. As a hobby dronist I don’t want to see lots of heavy regulation, not least because it doesn’t usually stop the idiots or ne’er do well’s but the idiots do need to be reigned in somehow.

I can't see a Gull reliably coming out of the way of an aircraft flying much faster! As for reigning in the idiots, in theory yes but look at the number of people driving like idiots, can't see how they could eradicate idiocy... and nobody has yet downed an aircraft with a drone out of idiocy AFAIK. The main merit of these drone scares is to sell newspapers IMHO.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 22 February, 2021, 07:31:09 am
But Gulls tend to be autonomous and have a sense of self preservation. As a hobby dronist I don’t want to see lots of heavy regulation, not least because it doesn’t usually stop the idiots or ne’er do well’s but the idiots do need to be reigned in somehow.

I can't see a Gull reliably coming out of the way of an aircraft flying much faster! As for reigning in the idiots, in theory yes but look at the number of people driving like idiots, can't see how they could eradicate idiocy... and nobody has yet downed an aircraft with a drone out of idiocy AFAIK. The main merit of these drone scares is to sell newspapers IMHO.

Did you miss this:

Quote
I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Two drone / chopper collisions in under a fortnight. The second pretty bad.

Chile  - https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/ (https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/)

USA -  https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/ (https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Polar Bear on 22 February, 2021, 09:16:55 am
The thing is politicians with a populist agenda have a tendency to create and pass duff laws to appease their audience.  The laws are almost completely unfit for purpose or simply unenforceable.   Dangerous dogs and mobile phone use whilst driving spring immediately to mind and no doubt I could come up with lots more with very little effort.  The licencing of waste disposal to reduce fly tipping is another piece of useless legislation which achieves nothing but a bit of extra bureaucracy.

Sometimes enforcement of existing laws would actually solve the problem.  Drones are already significantly legislated for but as with many things the laws are simpmy populist headlines and enforcement is considered too expensive or simply unnecessary.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: grams on 22 February, 2021, 09:52:06 am
The drone already failed to meet basic airworthiness standards and wouldn't have flown if it had been inspected. The problem was the CAA approved it without seeing it, even though it was just some random guy on the phone who'd just arrived from Australia.

There's an amazing line in the report about a CAA person arriving the morning of the show to have a look (although it didn't require their sign-off), but somehow allowed themselves to be directed to the hospitality area.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Panoramix on 22 February, 2021, 11:23:58 am
But Gulls tend to be autonomous and have a sense of self preservation. As a hobby dronist I don’t want to see lots of heavy regulation, not least because it doesn’t usually stop the idiots or ne’er do well’s but the idiots do need to be reigned in somehow.

I can't see a Gull reliably coming out of the way of an aircraft flying much faster! As for reigning in the idiots, in theory yes but look at the number of people driving like idiots, can't see how they could eradicate idiocy... and nobody has yet downed an aircraft with a drone out of idiocy AFAIK. The main merit of these drone scares is to sell newspapers IMHO.

Did you miss this:

Quote
I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Two drone / chopper collisions in under a fortnight. The second pretty bad.

Chile  - https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/ (https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/)

USA -  https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/ (https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/)

No I didn't miss it, the drone "lost", TBH I think that the drone scare stories equivalent for cycling would be  "There are idiot cyclists all over the place, let's make a licence scheme to stop them smashing into HGVs". You can impose as many rules as you want, there will always be idiots to undertake between an HGV and railings at a junction, your best bet is to let every cyclist know that this is a very bad move. Yes, preserving lives is a good idea but if they want to actually improve safety there probably are more efficient and less obtrusive ways. They could perfectly impose stringent consumer norms on the drones you can buy over the counter and ask DIYers to self regulate through a few national associations. If you want to take a few aerial shots, you buy a safe tamed down machine that can mostly fly itself, if you are serious about it you join a club were you get tuition and insurance.

Here in France we are specialists of over regulation, I work in construction and there are more accidents (often through sheer stupidity) on construction site despite all the rules that few actually understand and for road fatalities, it is the same thing!
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: davelodwig on 22 February, 2021, 03:23:15 pm
Astonished that this didn't make the national news at the time.  AAIB report published this week. 

tl;dr 95Kg (yes Kg) drone out of control in class A controlled airspace over Goodwood followed by uncontrolled descent and crash.  No-one hurt.  This time.

News article -   https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/19/airspeeder_alauda_drone_goodwood_investigation/

AAIB Report - https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-alauda-airspeeder-mk-ii-uas-registration-n-slash-a-040719  link to full PDF.

Six months after the "ghost" drone.
I think that if I'd turned up at my model flying club with that, and asked the CFI to check it out before I flew it, I'd have been told to take it home for a re-think. What were they thinking of?  95kg death trap............

The kill switch antennas were the default came with the module. The gain on them are woeful probably a range of 10m or something. Even worse in an enclosure.

That whole thing was a mass of prototype breakout boards cable tied together, while I love the amount of stuff I can get now on the internet for prototyping it has drawbacks when idiots build stuff.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TheLurker on 22 February, 2021, 03:49:59 pm
Quote from: Panoramix
No I didn't miss it, the drone "lost",
Ermm, I think you may have missed the fact that in the Chilean incident the passenger in the helicopter was hurt when the drone smashed through the canopy.  As it weighed 0.75kg I assume the passenger was quite badly hurt.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: jiberjaber on 23 February, 2021, 12:28:21 am
Meanwhile in Germany...

https://twitter.com/i/status/1363806958843748358
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Davef on 23 February, 2021, 08:57:39 am
Quote from: Panoramix
No I didn't miss it, the drone "lost",
Ermm, I think you may have missed the fact that in the Chilean incident the passenger in the helicopter was hurt when the drone smashed through the canopy.  As it weighed 0.75kg I assume the passenger was quite badly hurt.
(https://media.biobiochile.cl/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/accidente-aereo-drone-impacta-a-helicoptero-de-la-armada-en-pleno-vuelo-e-hiere-a-piloto.jpeg)
Unlucky to be bopped on the end of the nose.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 February, 2021, 10:50:43 am
The "human capable" drone in the Goodwood incident – would the human in the drone have been a passive passenger, at the mercies of the controller on the ground? That sounds scary. Or would they have been in control of the machine? In which case it surely ceases to be an unmanned aerial vehicle and they would presumably require a private pilot's licence.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Diver300 on 23 February, 2021, 10:55:17 am
The "human capable" drone in the Goodwood incident – would the human in the drone have been a passive passenger, at the mercies of the controller on the ground? That sounds scary. Or would they have been in control of the machine? In which case it surely ceases to be an unmanned aerial vehicle and they would presumably require a private pilot's licence.
It was a scale model of the human capable machine. It was over half size, but smaller and lighter than one that could carry a person.

The designers hadn't properly looked at the failure modes of the model. I hope the crash made them stop or at least take time to work out what could go wrong with a bit more care.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 February, 2021, 11:00:53 am
It reminds me that in Bristol we're getting "flying taxis" in 2023 (yes oh yes that date is absolutely entirely guaranteed cast-iron definite, I read it in the Brizzle Post), which it seems are basically large drones. Presumably with a pilot. (The idea is they will take well-heeled passengers from the city to the airport – about ten miles – and vice versa, rather than general taxi services, so it does make a bit of sense.)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 23 February, 2021, 12:25:07 pm
While the projected in-service date seems wildly optimistic, there's a lot to be said for the quad-rotor concept as a replacement for single-rotor helicopters. Ground footprint is one of the disadvantages, but if the mechanics of control after the loss of a motor or rotor can be resolved, I see a place for it as transportation.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Mr Larrington on 23 February, 2021, 12:28:13 pm
While the projected in-service date seems wildly optimistic, there's a lot to be said for the quad-rotor concept as a replacement for single-rotor helicopters. Ground footprint is one of the disadvantages, but if the mechanics of control after the loss of a motor or rotor can be resolved, I see a place for it as transportation.

Yes, they can be a bit on the large side:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/AeroVelo_Atlas_top_view.jpg/2560px-AeroVelo_Atlas_top_view.jpg)

 ;)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Diver300 on 23 February, 2021, 01:29:32 pm
While the projected in-service date seems wildly optimistic, there's a lot to be said for the quad-rotor concept as a replacement for single-rotor helicopters. Ground footprint is one of the disadvantages, but if the mechanics of control after the loss of a motor or rotor can be resolved, I see a place for it as transportation.
I don't think that a quad rotor craft can be controlled with one rotor inoperative. Control of roll, pitch, yaw and power are all needed.  With three rotors, there are only three control inputs so it can't work.

A helicopter has cyclic (fore-aft and left-right, so two controls) plus collective and tail rotor power. A fixed wing has ailerons, rudder, elevators and power, but they are usually stable in flight so you can get away with fewer. Multi-rotor craft are unstable in all directions so all four are needed.

A 6 rotor machine may be able to control will the loss of one rotor.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 23 February, 2021, 01:36:31 pm
Yes, I know how a helicopter works. I can, at a push, even describe retreating-blade stall and vortex ring (RAF A2 fixed-wing QFI, so my description might be a bit superficial!).

I believe a quad-rotor can be controlled with the loss of a rotor if each rotor is gimballed, which would allow each rotor to give an element of sideways thrust. The loss of a motor is probably more easily resolved with back-ups. The point is that if it looks economically viable, it will be done. If it looks likely that it won't be cheaper than a single-rotor helo, it won't happen.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 23 February, 2021, 01:45:00 pm
Yes, I know how a helicopter works. I can, at a push, even describe retreating-blade stall and vortex ring (RAF A2 fixed-wing QFI, so my description might be a bit superficial!).

I believe a quad-rotor can be controlled with the loss of a rotor if each rotor is gimballed, which would allow each rotor to give an element of sideways thrust. The loss of a motor is probably more easily resolved with back-ups. The point is that if it looks economically viable, it will be done. If it looks likely that it won't be cheaper than a single-rotor helo, it won't happen.
From a purely redundancy pooling of view, helicopters are just about the daftest idea for getting aloft that there is, a position that they haven’t exactly shown to be erroneous over the years. That said, I don’t actually know what their failure rate is in comparison to fixed wing, though their operational capabilities have largely negated any increased risk.
Multi rotor with demonstrable redundancy capabilities may improve the safety shortcoming, real or perceived, and is something that will be required if they are to fly over dense population centres. 
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 23 February, 2021, 01:48:45 pm
Indeed. I hate them with a passion. But that's not an entirely rational response!
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 23 February, 2021, 02:03:15 pm
As a glider pilot I can’t really get any further away from helicopters while remaining in a structured aircraft  ;D I like the idea that there are two ways to fly, with finesse or with an engine, although tour CFI* once opined  that anyone could fly, it was doing it at speed that took the skill.

* Tom Eagles, also a jet pilot instructor in the RAF. How cool is that, a flying instructor called Eagles. Perhaps one for the nominative determination thread  :D
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 23 February, 2021, 02:34:19 pm
I had a student called eagles. Her dad was a Royal Navy test pilot of some renown. She is now a B777 Captain with BA. Sadly, I don't know Tom - it would be funny if he were Anna's son!
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 23 February, 2021, 03:29:21 pm
I had a student called eagles. Her dad was a Royal Navy test pilot of some renown. She is now a B777 Captain with BA. Sadly, I don't know Tom - it would be funny if he were Anna's son!
I think him being her son is unlikely given that I learnt to fly in the 80s and he was club CFI and a senior RAF flight instructor at the time.  8)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Davef on 23 February, 2021, 04:27:23 pm
While the projected in-service date seems wildly optimistic, there's a lot to be said for the quad-rotor concept as a replacement for single-rotor helicopters. Ground footprint is one of the disadvantages, but if the mechanics of control after the loss of a motor or rotor can be resolved, I see a place for it as transportation.
I don't think that a quad rotor craft can be controlled with one rotor inoperative. Control of roll, pitch, yaw and power are all needed.  With three rotors, there are only three control inputs so it can't work.

A helicopter has cyclic (fore-aft and left-right, so two controls) plus collective and tail rotor power. A fixed wing has ailerons, rudder, elevators and power, but they are usually stable in flight so you can get away with fewer. Multi-rotor craft are unstable in all directions so all four are needed.

A 6 rotor machine may be able to control will the loss of one rotor.
https://youtu.be/bsHryqnvyYA
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 24 February, 2021, 02:44:11 am
I had a student called eagles. Her dad was a Royal Navy test pilot of some renown. She is now a B777 Captain with BA. Sadly, I don't know Tom - it would be funny if he were Anna's son!
I think him being her son is unlikely given that I learnt to fly in the 80s and he was club CFI and a senior RAF flight instructor at the time.  8)

Ah, which puts him a good bit older than Anna, who was around 20 in 1987, when I took her on. Oh well.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Ginger Cat on 25 February, 2021, 09:13:47 pm
While the projected in-service date seems wildly optimistic, there's a lot to be said for the quad-rotor concept as a replacement for single-rotor helicopters. Ground footprint is one of the disadvantages, but if the mechanics of control after the loss of a motor or rotor can be resolved, I see a place for it as transportation.
I don't think that a quad rotor craft can be controlled with one rotor inoperative. Control of roll, pitch, yaw and power are all needed.  With three rotors, there are only three control inputs so it can't work.

A helicopter has cyclic (fore-aft and left-right, so two controls) plus collective and tail rotor power. A fixed wing has ailerons, rudder, elevators and power, but they are usually stable in flight so you can get away with fewer. Multi-rotor craft are unstable in all directions so all four are needed.

A 6 rotor machine may be able to control will the loss of one rotor.

Generally true. However the new DJI Matrice 300 (a quadcopter) can land on 3 rotors. It will rotate but retains some ability to control direction as it does emergency landing. It also has better redundancy than most and is IP45 rated. That is where cutting edge commercial inspection type UAVs are.

Geofencing, anticollision sensors, aircraft proximity alert, return-to-home if signal lost are usual capabilities on many drones.

Hexacopters can retain control having lost a rotor.

You get pitch, roll and yaw by speeding up some rotors compared with others. Faster 2 on same side gives pitch/roll, diagonal opposite gives yaw. (Half the rotors spin clockwise, half spin counterclockwise). Usual controller layout puts pitch and roll on right stick and yaw/throttle on left stick. But other modes are available on better controllers. Need a main controller board on drone to manage rotor speeds as human reflexes could never make the constant micro changes to rotor speeds needed for control.

The Goodworth incident has attracted much discussion (and condemnation) in the responsible drone community.

Other info: my company has a Permission for Commercial Operations (for drone use) from CAA and i have completed  the new GVC. I do fly drones commercially on occasion.........)

GC
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Diver300 on 25 February, 2021, 11:06:21 pm
The video of quadcopter landing on 3 rotors showed it spinning a lot, which aligns with what Ginger Cat says.

If diagonally opposite rotors turn in opposite directions, you're starting with a Chinook arrangement, and it's probably stable in roll around a line joining the diagonally opposite rotors.

Control of pitch will lead to spinning. Using the rotor opposite the missing one may correct that spin at the cost of roll, but that might not matter if it's stableish in roll, so I agree that it's possible to land with some control, if spin can be tolerated.

What that does seem to need is the two diagonally opposite rotors to be turning in the opposite directions. If not, I would have thought that the spin would be very fast. My tiny quadcopter has diagonally opposite rotors turning in the same direction, and I thought that was the norm.

So is landing with one rotor missing so difficult that most designs don't bother? Is there some disadvantage of having the clockwise rotors near each other?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 26 February, 2021, 12:03:39 pm
In little photography drones, the asset itself isn't worth enough to put lots of expensive mechanical technology into survivability. To make the leap into human transportation, that will have to come.

Chinooks fly mainly through magick and the Earth rejecting them (as in all hicopleters), but the counter-rotating rotors are essential if no tail rotor is used - and they of course must be fully articulated so that the two rotors can counteract the yaw induced by each rotor's motion. The loss of a rotor on a Chinook is terminal - it cannot fly on one rotor. It can lose a powerplant, as both engines drive the rotor system.

As I mentioned above, if a quad-rotor has gimballed electric motors so that each rotor can apply a degree of sideways force, there's no need for the complicated and expensive articulated rotor heads that helicopters use, and if the gimballing is sufficient then the loss of a motor/rotor could be accommodated. Effectively, the asymmetric rotor becomes a tail-rotor, though with a degree of vertical thrust also. The main advantage of a quad-rotor is its simplicity, and that needs to be maintained if it's to have any advantage over other aerial vehicles.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TheLurker on 05 June, 2021, 07:42:39 am
Oh FFS!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/04/tern-bird-eggs-abandoned-drone

Just when you think people cannot be any *more* stupid, thoughtless or selfish...
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 01 July, 2021, 09:51:32 pm
While the projected in-service date seems wildly optimistic, there's a lot to be said for the quad-rotor concept as a replacement for single-rotor helicopters. Ground footprint is one of the disadvantages, but if the mechanics of control after the loss of a motor or rotor can be resolved, I see a place for it as transportation.

Single rotors are safer and more efficient than quad rotors. Loss of a motor/rotor in quad rotor is instant loss of control. 6 rotors you start to have a chance of not crashing. 8+ is better. More rotors = less efficient.
Helicopters are statistically safer than fixed wing. They crash a little more (And a lot of that can be directly contributed to the environment they fly in, ie wire environment), but survivability in a crash is higher.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2021, 10:26:19 pm
Helicopters are statistically safer than fixed wing. They crash a little more (And a lot of that can be directly contributed to the environment they fly in, ie wire environment), but survivability in a crash is higher.

Spoken like a true darksider.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 02 July, 2021, 08:02:02 am
‘They crash a little more’…!

I think you need to be a little more specific with your stats. Let’s start with public-transport helicopters versus public-transport fixed-wing aircraft. I’m not interested in private aviation; that’s amateur hobbyists playing at it, with all the variability of talent, knowledge and skill that that implies. I’m not saying public transport helicopters are unsafe, but they are far short of public transport fixed wing in any sensible safety analysis.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: pcolbeck on 02 July, 2021, 12:05:20 pm
My cousin was until he retired a few years ago a Colonel in the Army Aircorp. He had a vast experience of flying helicopters including in action in Iraq and Afghanistan, as a trainer and a couple of spells flying black ones for those gents at Hereford. He loved flying choppers. He also has a PPA.
He will not take anyone up for a joy ride in a helicopter. He will take them up in a light aircraft.

That's a professionals opinion of the relative safety of helicopters versus fixed wing.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TheLurker on 02 July, 2021, 02:32:57 pm
That's a professionals opinion of the relative safety of helicopters versus fixed wing.
*cough* *whispers*  I think TimC is a professional too.  :)

Me?  I'm all in favour of nice big aerofoils rivetted, welded, nailed, glued or even tied into place.  The glide angle may not be great on anything other than a sailplane, but I'd trust that sooner than auto-rotate or whatever the last-ditch please-don't-let-me-die manouevre is that they pull with helicopters.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: pcolbeck on 02 July, 2021, 03:23:41 pm
That's a professionals opinion of the relative safety of helicopters versus fixed wing.
*cough* *whispers*  I think TimC is a professional too.  :)

Indeed, on fixed wing and his opinion is in line with that of my cousin who was a rotary wing professional.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 02 July, 2021, 06:55:00 pm
‘They crash a little more’…!

I think you need to be a little more specific with your stats. Let’s start with public-transport helicopters versus public-transport fixed-wing aircraft. I’m not interested in private aviation; that’s amateur hobbyists playing at it, with all the variability of talent, knowledge and skill that that implies. I’m not saying public transport helicopters are unsafe, but they are far short of public transport fixed wing in any sensible safety analysis.

Yeah, sure, if you exclude GA and airliners will be safer...but again, if helicopters flew like airlines, they would be pointless and might as well be..well, airlines.
Now, how would you rate your survivability chances of a forced landing away from any airfields?
Non-GA helicopters crash more due to the type of work they do. They only real fixed equivalent would be fixed wing crop dusting/aerial firefighting.

Me?  I'm all in favour of nice big aerofoils rivetted, welded, nailed, glued or even tied into place.  The glide angle may not be great on anything other than a sailplane, but I'd trust that sooner than auto-rotate or whatever the last-ditch please-don't-let-me-die manouevre is that they pull with helicopters.

The big difference is that unlike a fixed wing that needs a minimum speed in order to not crash and cannot go below that speed until it well, hits the ground, in a helicopter you can virtually eliminate the speed just prior to impact. I have practiced both in airplanes and helicopters and still much prefer helicopters. Even if you to crash into a forest/hillside/etc, at least you have the option of reducing the initial impact to a minimum, something that you can't in an airplane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqy_cWcwI48

Now, helicopters, do though, have many more ways of trying to kill you and can do so in an instant, so you do have to be a lot more vigilant.

He will not take anyone up for a joy ride in a helicopter. He will take them up in a light aircraft.

That's a professionals opinion of the relative safety of helicopters versus fixed wing.

Did he have access to a helicopter that he could take people for joyrides in?. For the same cost as doing it in a light airplane?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: SoreTween on 02 July, 2021, 08:50:52 pm
Just when you think people cannot be any *more* stupid, thoughtless or selfish...
I don't think I've ever thought that.  (See also just there \/)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 02 July, 2021, 11:32:17 pm
Jakob, the point is not to crash in the first place. Helicopters are rather less good at that than aeroplanes. I've flown plenty of helicopters, from a Gazelle to a CH-53. They are great fun to fly, but in the interests of self-preservation I will not passenger in one unless there is absolutely no choice. I have survived an involuntary auto-rotated landing in a Whirlwind (as a passenger); it's not an experience I ever want to repeat. The aircraft did not survive the event in a repairable state... I have also had several engine failures in fixed wing aircraft in a career of 45 years and well north of 20,000 hours, and never needed to land anywhere other than a runway, in full control and with free choice of when and where it happened.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: SoreTween on 03 July, 2021, 08:46:48 am
List of Westland Whirlwind crashes (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist2.php?at=Westland+whirlwind&re=&pc=&op=&fa=&lo=&co=&ph=&na=&page=1)How many :o  Is there one in a museum somewhere with a big shiny plaque under it 'This is the one that didn't crash'?
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: PaulF on 03 July, 2021, 09:21:55 am
List of Westland Whirlwind crashes (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist2.php?at=Westland+whirlwind&re=&pc=&op=&fa=&lo=&co=&ph=&na=&page=1)How many :o  Is there one in a museum somewhere with a big shiny plaque under it 'This is the one that didn't crash'?


Some of those would have been the fixed wing fighter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Whirlwind_(fighter) since the helicopter of the same name was only built from the 50’s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Whirlwind_(helicopter)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 03 July, 2021, 12:55:40 pm
List of Westland Whirlwind crashes (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist2.php?at=Westland+whirlwind&re=&pc=&op=&fa=&lo=&co=&ph=&na=&page=1)How many :o  Is there one in a museum somewhere with a big shiny plaque under it 'This is the one that didn't crash'?

In that list, the Whirlwind helicopter is appended S-55 - its Sikorsky type number. As Paulf says, the earlier ones are the twin-engined fixed-wing fighter.

The one I was in was the later turbine-engined version of the RAF SAR persuasion, belonging to SARTU at RAF Valley. Sometime around 1970.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 03 July, 2021, 07:22:42 pm
List of Westland Whirlwind crashes (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist2.php?at=Westland+whirlwind&re=&pc=&op=&fa=&lo=&co=&ph=&na=&page=1)How many :o  Is there one in a museum somewhere with a big shiny plaque under it 'This is the one that didn't crash'?

Then don't look at Meteors:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist2.php?yr=&at=Gloster+meteor&re=&pc=&op=&lo=&co=&ph=&na=&submit=Submit
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 03 July, 2021, 07:24:43 pm
List of Westland Whirlwind crashes (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist2.php?at=Westland+whirlwind&re=&pc=&op=&fa=&lo=&co=&ph=&na=&page=1)How many :o  Is there one in a museum somewhere with a big shiny plaque under it 'This is the one that didn't crash'?

Then don't look at Meteors:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist2.php?yr=&at=Gloster+meteor&re=&pc=&op=&lo=&co=&ph=&na=&submit=Submit

(Also, on the whirlwhind list, see how many non-fatal accidents compared on the S-55s, vs the fixed wing version).
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: PaulF on 03 July, 2021, 07:32:05 pm
List of Westland Whirlwind crashes (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist2.php?at=Westland+whirlwind&re=&pc=&op=&fa=&lo=&co=&ph=&na=&page=1)How many :o  Is there one in a museum somewhere with a big shiny plaque under it 'This is the one that didn't crash'?

Then don't look at Meteors:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist2.php?yr=&at=Gloster+meteor&re=&pc=&op=&lo=&co=&ph=&na=&submit=Submit

(Also, on the whirlwhind list, see how many non-fatal accidents compared on the S-55s, vs the fixed wing version).

I haven’t gone through the list in detail but I suspect the majority of the fixed wing accidents were due to combat as opposed to the fixed vs. rotary debate.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: SoreTween on 03 July, 2021, 08:50:41 pm
In that list, the Whirlwind helicopter is appended S-55 - its Sikorsky type number. As Paulf says, the earlier ones are the twin-engined fixed-wing fighter.

The one I was in was the later turbine-engined version of the RAF SAR persuasion, belonging to SARTU at RAF Valley. Sometime around 1970.
Thank you, I sit corrected again.  Mind, fixed wing only accounts for 16 of the 189 listed crashes.

Are you sure you want to click open the spoiler and the link within?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 03 July, 2021, 11:41:38 pm
In that list, the Whirlwind helicopter is appended S-55 - its Sikorsky type number. As Paulf says, the earlier ones are the twin-engined fixed-wing fighter.

The one I was in was the later turbine-engined version of the RAF SAR persuasion, belonging to SARTU at RAF Valley. Sometime around 1970.
Thank you, I sit corrected again.  Mind, fixed wing only accounts for 16 of the 189 listed crashes.

Are you sure you want to click open the spoiler and the link within?
(click to show/hide)

It wasn't that one! I was a newly-minted Sgt in the CCF at the time, and my info could well be distorted by the passing of time, but I believe it was summer 1970. The aircraft lost the engine at about 200ft in the final descent to land just outside the cadets' barracks down at the Rhosneiger end of the airfield. The landing was abrupt and fairly violent, but no-one was injured - there were about 8 on board including the two pilots and the winchman. Both main gear legs collapsed, but not catastrophically. The aircraft was upright when we got out, but I think it lost one or more of its rotor blades. At the time they said it was repairable, but the Wessex was rapidly taking over the Whirlwind's jobs and it wouldn't be surprising if they decided it wasn't worth the effort to repair it. I don't have the registration, but we were told before we left that it was a write-off.

A few years later I returned to Valley as a fast-jet student on the Hawk. By then, all the Whirlwinds had gone and the S-58 Wessex was already slated for replacement by the S-61 Sea King. SARTU were definitely cognisant of that accident, and the briefings given to visiting ATC/CCF units were far more comprehensive about what to do in the event of an accident! It was during that tour that I flew the CH-53. As a fast-jet guy, I was supposed to be dismissive of anything that couldn't fly at Mach 2 and unleash holy hell in the process, but that aircraft deeply impressed me - not least because it was so easy to fly. I never got another go, but the experience has stayed with me. 
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Adam on 06 July, 2021, 07:08:14 am
Jakob, the point is not to crash in the first place. Helicopters are rather less good at that than aeroplanes. I've flown plenty of helicopters, from a Gazelle to a CH-53. They are great fun to fly, but in the interests of self-preservation I will not passenger in one unless there is absolutely no choice. I have survived an involuntary auto-rotated landing in a Whirlwind (as a passenger); it's not an experience I ever want to repeat. The aircraft did not survive the event in a repairable state... I have also had several engine failures in fixed wing aircraft in a career of 45 years and well north of 20,000 hours, and never needed to land anywhere other than a runway, in full control and with free choice of when and where it happened.
I tend to agree with that!

I wonder if it's time for the Fairey Rotordyne concept to get updated?  :P

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Rotodyne
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 06 July, 2021, 07:46:16 am
The Rotodyne was very clever, but possibly the noisiest machine man has ever created. The V22 is another answer to the same problem: how do you make a payload-carrying vehicle that can land and take off vertically, and cruise at a useful speed. It works, and it’s nowhere near as noisy, but it took huge amounts of money to get it into service, and its not likely ever to directly spawn a civilian variant, so the problem has not yet been solved. The multi-rotor concept isn’t going to solve it either, but there are some interesting electric tilt-rotor proposals out there for light aircraft.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Mr Larrington on 06 July, 2021, 09:49:05 am
If the Rotodyne was even in the same ballpark as the Republic XF-84H (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_XF-84H_Thunderscreech#Noise) then it’s little wonder it was never going to be a massive hit with the public :D
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 06 July, 2021, 11:36:55 am
That's a new one on me! The pure-jet F-84Fs that used to be based at Wethersfield were apparently very noisy, according to local folklore, though I'm sure the F-100s that replaced them weren't quiet. However, when the Lightnings of the Wattisham wing moved to Wethersfield for a few months in 1971 or 72 while the runway at Wattisham was resurfaced, I'm sure the locals would have welcomed the F-84s back!
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 06 July, 2021, 11:39:47 am
Jet noise. The sound of freedom.  :D
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: archy on 06 July, 2021, 12:46:16 pm
We’d some fighter aircraft practising overhead last week.  Happens now and again round here but this time the clear skies meant they were visible. Very, very loud, earthshaking even. My cousin attributes his deafness to flying such aircraft as Phantoms.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: nuttycyclist on 06 July, 2021, 01:54:08 pm
I had a Boeing C-17A Globemaster III low level over the garden the other day.  Looking on FlightRadar24 and the number times it was buzzing the runway at a local airport but only landing a couple of times, before heading off elsewhere and repeating at other airports, I have to assume it was a jolly good fun training day.

Speaking of which, jumped on that site just now to get the history and I think this chap is a little lost.
https://www.flightradar24.com/BDN02/284e6de2

Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Beardy on 06 July, 2021, 02:22:13 pm
Thanks for that nutty, I’m trying to get on with my chores, and you posting links to FlightRadar really isn’t helping any!
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: TimC on 06 July, 2021, 03:13:41 pm
I had a Boeing C-17A Globemaster III low level over the garden the other day.  Looking on FlightRadar24 and the number times it was buzzing the runway at a local airport but only landing a couple of times, before heading off elsewhere and repeating at other airports, I have to assume it was a jolly good fun training day.

Speaking of which, jumped on that site just now to get the history and I think this chap is a little lost.
https://www.flightradar24.com/BDN02/284e6de

The RAF's Institute of Aviation Medicine Hawk T1 out of Boscombe Down. As well as a number of research tasks, they are tasked with desensitising pilots who develop severe motion sickness due to high-g manoeuvring. Essentially, that means putting them through lots of aerobatics till they stop throwing up.
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: archy on 06 July, 2021, 05:00:39 pm
They told us cadets we'd have to clean it up if we were sick.  It was only Chipmunks but your head can only go as far as the floor anyway.  The pilots weren't really supposed to do aerobatics but if you asked nicely..
Title: Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
Post by: Jakob on 07 July, 2021, 12:11:35 am
The Rotodyne was very clever, but possibly the noisiest machine man has ever created. The V22 is another answer to the same problem: how do you make a payload-carrying vehicle that can land and take off vertically, and cruise at a useful speed. It works, and it’s nowhere near as noisy, but it took huge amounts of money to get it into service, and its not likely ever to directly spawn a civilian variant

Erhh, the AW609 is a thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6O0fe5Uzg4