Author Topic: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness  (Read 45029 times)

Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #225 on: 24 December, 2018, 01:26:50 pm »
Actually, I'm changing my vote to the 'there was no drone' and it's one of the 'big cat' style things. They never found the Beast of Sydenham either.

Mine too.  And I'm going to go a step further and suggest that it will still be used as an excuse to install - at great expense - marginally effective anti-drone security theatre.

Nailed it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46670714
Thats a purchase that shouts out ‘due diligence’! “The airport has spent £5 million on technology since Wednesday to prevent copycat attacks.


You can imagine that there’s a chap in a back office somewhere that’s been ranting about Drone attacks forever and has continued to receive the same answer ‘shut up Terry (who is head of aerial attack prevention), that’s obviously not going to happen’, then on Thursday morning, the boss has come down to the department and turned to John (who is head of tunnelling attack prevention) and said ‘John, this can’t happen again, here’s £5 million, get whatever we need’
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

Kim

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Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #226 on: 24 December, 2018, 01:36:23 pm »
You can imagine that there’s a chap in a back office somewhere that’s been ranting about Drone attacks forever and has continued to receive the same answer ‘shut up Terry (who is head of aerial attack prevention), that’s obviously not going to happen’, then on Thursday morning, the boss has come down to the department and turned to John (who is head of tunnelling attack prevention) and said ‘John, this can’t happen again, here’s £5 million, get whatever we need’

So true...

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #227 on: 24 December, 2018, 03:22:37 pm »
, some senior barrister was bemoaning the fact that people who look nice and present themselves well in the witness box are more likely to get off. Erm, really.
Unconcious bias ("Forget the evidence, you look like me, so I'm going to find you not guilty").

It's not really that unconscious tbh, but it is the obvious outcome of an adversarial justice system.
OK then, concious bias. It happens. My employer has 'unconsious bias' courses, so that one can
recognise when it's happening. I'd wager it still persists.

mattc

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Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #228 on: 24 December, 2018, 03:37:01 pm »
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #229 on: 24 December, 2018, 04:11:10 pm »
, some senior barrister was bemoaning the fact that people who look nice and present themselves well in the witness box are more likely to get off. Erm, really.
Unconcious bias ("Forget the evidence, you look like me, so I'm going to find you not guilty").

It's not really that unconscious tbh, but it is the obvious outcome of an adversarial justice system.
OK then, concious bias. It happens. My employer has 'unconsious bias' courses, so that one can
recognise when it's happening. I'd wager it still persists.

Unconscious bias training may not even be effective beyond an initial awareness raising: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/blogs/unconscious-bias-training-no-such-thing-quick-fix

But yes, it's well known in legal circles that issues such as race, class, accent, presentation, mannerisms massively affect not just juries but legal practitioners' view of someone's innocence or guilt and level of sanction. :(

andytheflyer

  • Andytheex-flyer.....
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #230 on: 24 December, 2018, 04:22:35 pm »
The 'we found a broken drone' seems increasingly desperate. 'But the rain may have washed away any evidence...'

Yeah, it might have.

I suspect we'll have more genuine footage of Santa this evening than there will ever be of any Gatwick drone.

As an r/c model flyer, but no fan of drones in the wrong hands, I was very sceptical when they were saying that there were 50 drone sightings - now it's 67, I'm even more sceptical.

If people had made 67 drone flights around Gatwick over an 18 hour period, someone, somewhere would have seen something and there would be more reporting of the sightings than there has been.  That's a lot of flights.  OK, maybe some are multiple sightings of the same flight, but even so it beggars my belief that there were a large number of drone incursions.

My model flying club files off an active light aviation airfield, and has done since 1964, with (AFAIAW) no incidents.  Our full-size neighbours are delighted to have us fly on their field, and some of the full size pilots also fly models.  Paradoxically maybe, we get occasional apologies from the full-size about visiting aircraft joining the circuit in the wrong way and overflying us when we are flying - that tends to concentrate our minds for a few seconds.  And don't start me on the RAF helicopters doing their own thing.

We don't however, accept drone flyers as members (and maybe that's a shame), simply because the full-size flyers trust the model flyers (helicopter and fixed wing) to know the rules and stick to them.  With the bad publicity surrounding drones, we simply can't take the risk of alienating our neighbours.


Adam

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Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #231 on: 24 December, 2018, 04:29:49 pm »
Having cycled a lot around there, both day & night, there's a lot of countryside with woodland tracks and minor roads around large parts of Gatwick.  It would be very easy for someone on a mountain bike to pop a drone up & down a few times within 1 km or far less from the airport.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

ian

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #232 on: 24 December, 2018, 04:32:01 pm »
Well, now they are claiming that they didn't mean to say there might be 'no drone' while at the same time admitting they have no actual evidence there was a drone. Other than eyewitnesses, of whom there were apparently many, not one of whom managed to get any evidence. Eyewitness evidence is effectively worthless. If you tell people there's drones, UFOs, big cats, kiddy abductors, or whatever, they will report seeing them.

Given the relative inexpensiveness of drones and the majority of them in amateur hands, is finding a crashed one really evidence of anything other than people crash their drones often and probably don't manage to find them?

Kim

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Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #233 on: 24 December, 2018, 04:58:56 pm »
The 'we found a broken drone' seems increasingly desperate. 'But the rain may have washed away any evidence...'

Yeah, it might have.

I suspect we'll have more genuine footage of Santa this evening than there will ever be of any Gatwick drone.

As an r/c model flyer, but no fan of drones in the wrong hands, I was very sceptical when they were saying that there were 50 drone sightings - now it's 67, I'm even more sceptical.

If people had made 67 drone flights around Gatwick over an 18 hour period, someone, somewhere would have seen something and there would be more reporting of the sightings than there has been.  That's a lot of flights.  OK, maybe some are multiple sightings of the same flight, but even so it beggars my belief that there were a large number of drone incursions.

A small number of flights leading to 67 sightings sounds about right to me.  I know they're hard to see, but there are some very people-dense areas around Gatwick Airport, so it's entirely reasonable for a single flight to result in dozens of sightings.

Of course it's also reasonable for the sightings to have been well-intentioned but false, or for some of the reports to be hoaxes.  At this point, if you felt like keeping the airport shut down for a bit longer (eg. for the lols, or the benefit of the environment) you could phone in a drone sighting with little expectation of getting in any trouble.

PaulF

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Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #234 on: 24 December, 2018, 05:05:52 pm »

We don't however, accept drone flyers as members (and maybe that's a shame), simply because the full-size flyers trust the model flyers (helicopter and fixed wing) to know the rules and stick to them.  With the bad publicity surrounding drones, we simply can't take the risk of alienating our neighbours.


Out of interest how do you define the difference between a drone and a model? Is it as simple that a model looks like a proper aircraft albeit sometimes an imagined one? Or is it more subtle?

ian

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #235 on: 24 December, 2018, 05:18:21 pm »
Yet not one of the people who were actually there specifically to look for these drones seem to have seen one. None of the fancy equipment seems to have detected one: no pictures, no radar, no radio signals.

On the plus side, made-up technology will likely successfully detect made-up drones.

Kim

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Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #236 on: 24 December, 2018, 05:34:25 pm »
None of the fancy equipment seems to have detected one: no pictures, no radar, no radio signals.

They wouldn't tell us if it had.

ian

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #237 on: 24 December, 2018, 05:44:32 pm »
Given the level of potential embarrassment, I suspect they would shout out any evidence at this point rather than look at their feet and mutter well, he says he saw one...

They were happy enough to arrest a couple on the grounds they might have once been near Gatwick and feed their details direct to the papers.

Of course, the drone could have been operated by an alien paedobear, recently arrived on a UFO. They won't find evidence, of course, as it was eaten by a mysterious big cat.

Kim

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Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #238 on: 24 December, 2018, 05:48:22 pm »
Yeah, but then they'd have to reveal that the technology in question is a set of really powerful binoculars.

andytheflyer

  • Andytheex-flyer.....
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #239 on: 24 December, 2018, 07:03:55 pm »

We don't however, accept drone flyers as members (and maybe that's a shame), simply because the full-size flyers trust the model flyers (helicopter and fixed wing) to know the rules and stick to them.  With the bad publicity surrounding drones, we simply can't take the risk of alienating our neighbours.


Out of interest how do you define the difference between a drone and a model? Is it as simple that a model looks like a proper aircraft albeit sometimes an imagined one? Or is it more subtle?

Well done, you've hit the nail bang on the head.  No-one has been able to come up with a legally-watertight definition - so up until recently we model flyers were staring down the barrel of the end of model flying as we've always known it in the UK - r/c, free flight, nearly everything.  Fortunately, sense was eventually seen and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) was persuaded that legitimate model flying has been a safe pastime for thousands of people for getting on for a century.  It was only the drones that were causing a problem.  Indeed, there are a number of model flying clubs in the UK that occupy the same general space as full-size light aviation clubs, all without difficulty.

EASA has recognised that since legitimate model flying was shown to be historically safe, the national regulators could continue to do what they have always done wrt model flying - in this case the CAA regulates model flying.  It may come as a surprise, but regs that apply to 747s also apply to model flying, where relevant.  In general, model flyers in the UK will belong to a club, or at least be members of the British Model Flying Association (the BMFA).  Generally, clubs are affiliated to the BMFA, who provide insurance and back-up in case of matters concerning the CAA and the law.  There are around 70,000 members of the BMFA. 

EASA recognised that to be able to fly an r/c model, you'll probably have bought the aeroplane from a shop and you will have been given advice as to how to go about learning to fly it.  Believe me, you are very, very unlikely to learn by yourself.  You will be gently pushed towards a club where you will learn how to fly and, more importantly, learn how to fly safely and in accordance with the law.

EASA was persuaded of the value of this historical approach and has exempted model flyers, who are members of the BMFA or recognised clubs, from the drone regs which come into force next November.  Make no mistake, these are draconian.  Hundreds of thousands of drone flyers are going to fall foul of the regs.  It was, however, squeaky bum time for the model flying community for many months until recently.

Model flyers in the USA, for example, may not be so lucky.  Their FAA draft regs are draconian, and AIUI could be a severe restaint on model flying.  I understand that the FAA has had to re-visit the draft regs, but as yet nothing has been decided. 

It all comes back to the difficulty of determining what is a drone in law.  Say you call it a multi-rotor r/c aeroplane.  What do you do then about model Chinook flyers?  (Not that there are that many).  Or an on-board camera? Some model flyers have a camera and fly though a headset - that's covered by the BMFA rules, which require an observer to stand alongside the model pilot whist flying via the headset.  OK, try a weight limit.  EASA require any drone over 250g to be registered and only flown by someone over 18.  There are very few model aeroplanes under that weight, and those that there are are mostly flown indoors in sports hall, in competitions.  Most will be in the 3 to 5kg band.  Over 7kg, additional regs apply to models, and over 20kg the CAA is involved in scrutineering for airworthiness.

Age limit then maybe?  OK, what about the thousands of kids that learn to fly, and then go on to build their own models, learning valuable skills and the ability to make and mend things.

Finally, the 400ft limit gives the model glider flyers a problem. Launch off a cliff, or the top of a hill, and you'll quickly be >400ft above the ground. AFAIK there have been no incidents of model gliders threatening full-size aircraft.

The inability to define a drone in law has been the focus of hundreds of regulators across the EU for a couple of years now.  Fortunately, sense has prevailed and the Regs as drafted recognise that it's not the legitimate model flyers who are causing the problem, but those who can buy a drone over the internet, set it up to fly itself, and then breach the exisiting laws without knowing that there even were laws that they needed to know about.

TheLurker OTP may be along shortly - he flies much smaller models than me (because he's a much more skilled modeller!), but some will be over the 250g limit that would have applied.

So, PaulF, your question was very well put and poses a significant problem in law.

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #240 on: 24 December, 2018, 07:05:05 pm »
You can imagine that there’s a chap in a back office somewhere that’s been ranting about Drone attacks forever and has continued to receive the same answer ‘shut up Terry (who is head of aerial attack prevention), that’s obviously not going to happen’, then on Thursday morning, the boss has come down to the department and turned to John (who is head of tunnelling attack prevention) and said ‘John, this can’t happen again, here’s £5 million, get whatever we need’

So true...

No need to tunnel under the gatwiick runways, it's already been done and carries the river Mole in two large culverts if my memory serves.

Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #241 on: 24 December, 2018, 07:12:41 pm »
You can imagine that there’s a chap in a back office somewhere that’s been ranting about Drone attacks forever and has continued to receive the same answer ‘shut up Terry (who is head of aerial attack prevention), that’s obviously not going to happen’, then on Thursday morning, the boss has come down to the department and turned to John (who is head of tunnelling attack prevention) and said ‘John, this can’t happen again, here’s £5 million, get whatever we need’

So true...

No need to tunnel under the gatwiick runways, it's already been done and carries the river Mole in two large culverts if my memory serves.
There's a cable duct <somewhere> at Gatwick,  where a ferret was employed to drag a line to facilitate cable pulling.

BITD, Gatwick had a futuristic terminal which the aircraft could park round, nose first. This was served by a tunnel from the adjacent railway station.  We sometimes ride past the  old terminal building on the FNRTTC (it's The Beehive), but the station has been relocated a few chains North. The tunnel is still there.
There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

Kim

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Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #242 on: 24 December, 2018, 07:28:52 pm »
It all comes back to the difficulty of determining what is a drone in law.

TBH, that doesn't sound like the issue...


Quote
Fortunately, sense has prevailed and the Regs as drafted recognise that it's not the legitimate model flyers who are causing the problem, but those who can buy a drone over the internet, set it up to fly itself, and then breach the exisiting laws without knowing that there even were laws that they needed to know about.

Ie. it's not about any particular technology, but rather that the barrier to entry has become so low that any ignorant or malicious person can (and therefore will) do stupid shit with UAVs, much like they can and do with the Internet[1].

If you could buy a flight-ready combustion-engined R/C aeroplane for £30 in Tescos, we have the same sort of problems (likely minus a few fingers) with those.

You can't put technological progress back in the bottle, so I expect to eventually see regulation on sales, akin to those on lasers or air guns.  "No problem with the batteries, but you can only buy these rotors when you show your commercial drone operator's licence or provide proof of model aircraft club membership." doesn't seem unreasonable.  Won't stop a determined bad actor, but should keep a lid on the stupid oik factor.



[1] Happy 9246th of September, everyone.

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #243 on: 24 December, 2018, 08:01:49 pm »
Also a few fixed-wing 'drones' available now. They seem to be getting cheaper, and easier to fly. Some with cameras and FPV.
Compared to quadcopters, they have advantages of battery life/range and speed.

andytheflyer

  • Andytheex-flyer.....
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #244 on: 24 December, 2018, 08:16:30 pm »

Quote
Fortunately, sense has prevailed and the Regs as drafted recognise that it's not the legitimate model flyers who are causing the problem, but those who can buy a drone over the internet, set it up to fly itself, and then breach the exisiting laws without knowing that there even were laws that they needed to know about.

Ie. it's not about any particular technology, but rather that the barrier to entry has become so low that any ignorant or malicious person can (and therefore will) do stupid shit with UAVs

If you could buy a flight-ready combustion-engined R/C aeroplane for £30 in Tescos, we have the same sort of problems (likely minus a few fingers) with those.


Exactly.  You can buy relatively cheap fixed r/c wing models off Fleabay or online and people have learned to fly them largely through practicing with a flight sim.  You could make a nuisance of yourself with one of these - but for some reason those people don't.  Maybe that's because the level of skill required to fly a fixed wing is much higher - even with gyros on the three main controls.  Plus, you need more room to take off and land.  To deliberately fly an r/c model into a full size would take a very high level of skill.  I suspect the attraction of the drone is the camera and the ability to hover, hang around in a small space and capture images, which you generally can't do with a moving platform such as a fixed wing model aeroplane.

Kim

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Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #245 on: 24 December, 2018, 08:27:56 pm »
I suppose it's just that multi-rotor helicopters are capable of hovering and naturally (and cheaply) lend themselves to full abstraction of the control system.  There's now a reasonable expectation that you can make one do what you want it to without a high degree of skill.  While you could probably achieve the same with a traditional helicopter and the right control system, it would be much more fiddly and expensive.  Fixed wing aircraft are always going to have to fly like fixed wing aircraft (or at least ballistically), and ornithopters[1] are far too finicky.

I think off-the-shelf drones are, in target market terms, closer to kites than traditional model aircraft[2]:  There are enthusiasts doing clever things with their own builds, but they're generally perceived as something you can simply buy and have fun flying around until you break it; just stay away from overhead cables.  Without the dependence on wind or the limitations of string.  I might be wrong, but I get the impression that affordable camera drones killed off most people's interest in kite photography almost overnight.


[1] I had a cheap R/C bat ornithopter that was a random inappropriate Christmas present.  TBH, I was impressed that it flew as well as it did, but it was the sort of thing that really needed a large indoor space, and the control was limited.  It did a reasonable impression of a startled bat trapped indoors.
[2] This seems related to my curmudgeonly rant about the increasing popularity of ride-on electric vehicles for small children who would traditionally have had a bicycle or tricycle.

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #246 on: 25 December, 2018, 12:36:22 am »
I suppose it's just that multi-rotor helicopters are capable of hovering and naturally (and cheaply) lend themselves to full abstraction of the control system.  There's now a reasonable expectation that you can make one do what you want it to without a high degree of skill.  While you could probably achieve the same with a traditional helicopter and the right control system, it would be much more fiddly and expensive.  Fixed wing aircraft are always going to have to fly like fixed wing aircraft (or at least ballistically), and ornithopters[1] are far too finicky.

I think off-the-shelf drones are, in target market terms, closer to kites than traditional model aircraft[2]:  There are enthusiasts doing clever things with their own builds, but they're generally perceived as something you can simply buy and have fun flying around until you break it; just stay away from overhead cables.  Without the dependence on wind or the limitations of string.  I might be wrong, but I get the impression that affordable camera drones killed off most people's interest in kite photography almost overnight.


[1] I had a cheap R/C bat ornithopter that was a random inappropriate Christmas present.  TBH, I was impressed that it flew as well as it did, but it was the sort of thing that really needed a large indoor space, and the control was limited.  It did a reasonable impression of a startled bat trapped indoors.
[2] This seems related to my curmudgeonly rant about the increasing popularity of ride-on electric vehicles for small children who would traditionally have had a bicycle or tricycle.

My bold.
Yup.

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #247 on: 25 December, 2018, 07:59:34 am »
While you could probably achieve the same with a traditional helicopter and the right control system, it would be much more fiddly and expensive. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56lVKVMexVs

This is my prototype heli on an autonomous survey mission.  Flybar-less systems are quite simple to setup, although it does require some understanding of how helicopters work.
They are far more efficient than multi-rotors and can handle conditions that VTOL fixed wings can't. Plan to start selling this model early next year. (And already got a larger 2-stroke model in development).

It's also made me realize just how silly the new 'multi-rotor passenger' vehicles are.  They are, as mentioned, very inefficient and if you lose power, you die. With a helicopter, at least you have the chance of auto-rotating.

andytheflyer

  • Andytheex-flyer.....
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #248 on: 25 December, 2018, 08:17:12 am »
That's very impressive Jakob.  I've not seen any autonomous helicopters to date. I suppose it was easier for the drone developers to provide directional control through multi-rotors rather than the conventional rotary wing systems, hence the drones got there first.  It requires a lot of skill and much practice to fly a model helicopter.  And deep pockets!


TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #249 on: 25 December, 2018, 09:01:36 am »
This is my prototype heli on an autonomous survey mission.
Dead impressed.  Aerial footage from a camera drone?

Hearking back to Andy's post about the proposed regs for model aeroplanes etc.  The 400' limit may be a problem for gliders other than slope soarers.  Those I muck around with are typically sub 100g and a bungee or hand-tow launch can easily put the 'plane at 100' plus. Some people can also can also get discus launch models to that sort of height.  All you need then is a good thermal (and they're not that difficult to find in a good summer) and 400' is suddenly not that high.  $Deity knows how the model rocketry bods are going to cope.
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