Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 834804 times)

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #975 on: 06 September, 2010, 09:38:44 am »
And still in a similar vein, the plural of media is not medias.

d.
I thought it was meeja.

(runs & hides)
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #976 on: 06 September, 2010, 10:53:06 am »
There is a singular form of 'consortia'! >:(

Indeed, in a similar vein there is also a singular form of 'criteria'.

Edit.  I have just remembered that the gits do it with 'phenomena' as well.

Yes, I think that criteria was also misused in the same letter.  But the damn thing was about consortia, and how we would all be obliged to join 'a consortia' >:(
Getting there...

red marley

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #977 on: 06 September, 2010, 11:07:22 am »
How many of the pluralists here use

medium
datum
agendum
graffito

when referring to one item from their more familiar plurals?

Or how many of you use

concerti
bimbi

in place of their more familiar singular versions?

Surely at some point, many of these words have become sufficiently Anglicised that an English plural is acceptable.

Having said all that, I will remain in what feels like a lone struggle to maintain 'data are' in everyday usage. I also refer to 'datums' when talking about more than one baseline upon which to measure relative height on a map.

border-rider

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #978 on: 06 September, 2010, 11:12:46 am »

Surely at some point, many of these words have become sufficiently Anglicised that an English plural is acceptable.

Insects have antennae; radio transmitters have antennas - by convention.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #979 on: 06 September, 2010, 11:13:09 am »
Panino, scampo.

You're not alone saying 'the data are'.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #980 on: 06 September, 2010, 12:55:34 pm »
How many of the pluralists here use

medium
datum
agendum
graffito

when referring to one item from their more familiar plurals?

Or how many of you use

concerti
bimbi

in place of their more familiar singular versions?
All except agendum (sorry  :( ) & bimbi - but I will now correct the latter omission. I like bimbi. Ta.  :thumbsup:

And data are, of course.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #981 on: 06 September, 2010, 01:10:47 pm »
How many of the pluralists here use

medium
datum
agendum
graffito

when referring to one item from their more familiar plurals?

Er, I don't even know of an alternative singular form for any of these words, never mind use one.  ???

Like "trousers", they're not words you'd commonly use in the singular form anyway - the only time I would use the singular of media (for this sense of the word) is when quoting Marshall McLuhan.

Quote
Surely at some point, many of these words have become sufficiently Anglicised that an English plural is acceptable.

That's not the point. "Media" is already a plural, it doesn't need to be pluralised. The complaint is more about using plural forms with a singular sense.

I'm wholly in favour of anglicised plurals of adopted words (stadiums, forums etc), especially when the English meaning of the word is somewhat distanced from its native meaning - eg bimbo.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #982 on: 06 September, 2010, 01:16:16 pm »
How many of the pluralists here use

medium
datum
agendum
graffito

when referring to one item from their more familiar plurals?

Er, I don't even know of an alternative singular form for any of these words, never mind use one.  ???

Like "trousers", they're not words you'd commonly use in the singular form anyway -
Oh no! I've often found occasion to use medium (in the sense of a single medium of communication, e.g. radio), datum, & graffito. How else would you refer to a single picture or tag on a wall than 'a graffito'?
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #983 on: 06 September, 2010, 01:22:44 pm »
Oh no! I've often found occasion to use medium (in the sense of a single medium of communication, e.g. radio), datum, & graffito.

I would use "medium" in an artistic context, eg "What medium did the artist use for this work?" but data and graffiti aren't common enough subjects of conversation for me that I can recall ever needing to use their singular forms.

"Panini" is a truly irritating word (what's wrong with calling it a bread roll, ffs?), but for me, it passes the adoption test, in that its specific English meaning is sufficiently different to the original for the native singular/plural forms to be irrelevant.

Quote
How else would you refer to a single picture or tag on a wall than 'a graffito'?

"The latest Banksy."

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #984 on: 06 September, 2010, 01:32:01 pm »
Oh no! I've often found occasion to use medium (in the sense of a single medium of communication, e.g. radio), datum, & graffito.

I would use "medium" in an artistic context, eg "What medium did the artist use for this work?"
+1 to that

I know that "data is" is incorrect, but it just fits so well with other related terms e.g.
"The data you supplied is incomplete, and so is the information from our other sources."
I suppose it's because I think of data encompassing a variety of forms other than simply a set of numbers e.g. "the data on a hard disk" may well include pictures, words etc.
That data is corrupt.


Sorry ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #985 on: 06 September, 2010, 01:41:42 pm »
I know that "data is" is incorrect, but it just fits so well with other related terms e.g.
"The data you supplied is incomplete, and so is the information from our other sources."
I suppose it's because I think of data encompassing a variety of forms other than simply a set of numbers e.g. "the data on a hard disk" may well include pictures, words etc.

In that context, "data" has a singular sense - you're talking about a "complete set" of data, which is, grammatically speaking, like a bag of sand - you would talk about the sand in that bag in the singular, even though it comprises many individual grains.

So I would argue your example isn't grammatically incorrect.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #986 on: 06 September, 2010, 02:01:59 pm »

That's not the point. "Media" is already a plural, it doesn't need to be pluralised. The complaint is more about using plural forms with a singular sense.

I'm wholly in favour of anglicised plurals of adopted words (stadiums, forums etc), especially when the English meaning of the word is somewhat distanced from its native meaning - eg bimbo.

d.


But jo's point (I think), carrying on from Clarion's and Gandalf's examples, is that some people who criticize the use of the the plural form when the singular should be used do not do so consistently, and he quotes some examples of very infrequently used singular forms.  And then he adds the 'common sense' proviso:

Surely at some point, many of these words have become sufficiently Anglicised that an English plural is acceptable.

I looked up "agenda" in my Fowlers because I realized that I didn't know if an agendum would refer to a single list of items, or an single item on such a list:

"Although agenda is a plural word, it is pedantry to object to the common and convenient practice of treating it thus [referring to an introductory quotation] as a singular one.  If a singular is needed for one item of the agenda there seems no escape from that rather cumbrous phrase; agendum is pedantic and agend obsolete".

I think I'll start using "agend" just to show off.  Can we move on to the next agend please?


citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #987 on: 06 September, 2010, 02:23:40 pm »
But jo's point (I think), carrying on from Clarion's and Gandalf's examples, is that some people who criticize the use of the the plural form when the singular should be used do not do so consistently

Yes, I'm sure some people do that. ;)

Quote
I looked up "agenda" in my Fowlers because I realized that I didn't know if an agendum would refer to a single list of items, or an single item on such a list:

Agenda has a singular sense in the same way as data in mattc's example. I entirely agree with Fowler on this matter. This isn't an inconsistency. Linguistically, it's an irregularity but not an inconsistency.

On the other hand, consortia, to pick on Clarion's example, can't be treated as a singular in the same way. It makes no sense.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #988 on: 06 September, 2010, 05:51:17 pm »
Interesting that these words are problematic in other languages too. The Polish words stadion, datum, medium, konsorcjum, are strictly speaking neutral because that is their Latin gender and form plurals stadia, data, media, konsorcja, but in practice they are often treated as masculine, in line with the general rule that words ending in consonants are masculine, which gives them problematic plurals stadiumy, datumy, etc. These just sound wrong and produce some strange declensions.

So, you're in international society with this one.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #989 on: 06 September, 2010, 09:52:08 pm »
That wonderfully fine yet vague line between correctness and pedantry.

rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #990 on: 06 September, 2010, 09:59:56 pm »
Another plural that gets used as a singular:

"He contracted a bacteria".
(Possibly not as blatant as that, but similar usage has appeared here and there.)
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #991 on: 07 September, 2010, 08:55:07 am »

All except agendum (sorry  :( ) & bimbi - but I will now correct the latter omission. I like bimbi. Ta.  :thumbsup:


I went to school with a Bimbi.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #992 on: 07 September, 2010, 09:45:47 am »
Not quite cringe-making, but the local, under-new-management, wine shop had a sign outside: We sell "ice".

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #993 on: 07 September, 2010, 09:56:05 am »
I think that must mean that they sell methamphetamine.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #994 on: 07 September, 2010, 10:15:07 am »
Not quite cringe-making, but the local, under-new-management, wine shop had a sign outside: We sell "ice".

You'll like "this":
The “Blog” of “Unnecessary” Quotation Marks

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

red marley

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #995 on: 07 September, 2010, 11:11:35 am »
My favourite for superfluous quotation marks is the old design of Seabrook Crisps* (known for their Please Strong Avoid Light design). Many an hour could be spent in a northern England  pub counting up the number of unnecessary inverted commas. From memory they included

"More" - than a "Snack"  [what is that hyphen doing?]
"Value" 31 grammes "e"  [What?! What possible sense are you trying to add to "e" there?]
"Crinkle" cut  [or was it Crinkle "Cut", or just "Crinkle Cut"]
Sea Salt original "Flavour"  [I love reading these as 'scare quotes' which turns the message on its head]

In what can only be described as a barbarous culling, almost all of these quotes were removed in a redesign sometime in the last decade.

I realise it really is quite sad that I can remember the wording and layout of a packet of crisps I probably last saw in the 1990s, but I feel compelled to share my problem with the group.


* I think only available north of Derbyshire. Our North of England Correspondent, Exit Stage Left, may be able to enlighten us on this matter.


Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #996 on: 07 September, 2010, 11:14:28 am »
"Value" 31 grammes "e"  [What?! What possible sense are you trying to add to "e" there?]

Quote from: http://www.reading.ac.uk/foodlaw/label/i-1.htm
With regard to labelling, products packed according the average weight system may use the 'e' mark when the nominal quantity is in the range 5g - 10kg (or 5ml - 10l). The mark shall be at least 3mm high, placed in the same field of vision as the weight/volume statement, and indelible, clearly legible and visible under normal conditions of purchase. The mark is not obligatory but when used is a guarantee, recognised throughout the EEC, that the goods to which it is applied have been packed in accordance with the relevant EEC Directive.

It's present on the pack of Hula Hoops that lies on my desk.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #997 on: 07 September, 2010, 11:23:28 am »
Seabrooks crisps are the best.

Their packaging designers are rubbish.
Getting there...

border-rider

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #998 on: 07 September, 2010, 11:35:50 am »
Quote
Fry slams BBC 'culture of fear'

might be quite hard for the BBC to report without the quotation marks.

In some cases I think it's a deliberate distancing of the BBC from the suggestion being made by whoever it is quoting.  

But things like

Quote
Red Planet 'may not be lifeless'

does look a bit silly, agreed.

edit: maybe they've decided to be consistent and always use them when re-reporting stuff other people have claimed. Else, I suppose, it might be perceived as an indicator of what the BBC does or doesn't believe to be true.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #999 on: 07 September, 2010, 11:43:47 am »
edit: maybe they've decided to be consistent and always use them when re-reporting stuff other people have claimed. Else, I suppose, it might be perceived as an indicator of what the BBC does or doesn't believe to be true.

Except that they're paraphrasing the claims. In most cases the phrase within quotes doesn't appear anywhere in the article.

ME 'virus link' found in children - The word 'link' does not appear anywhere in the article.

Political void 'threatens Iraq' - The word 'threat' (or any variant) does not appear anywhere.

etc...

They're trying to distance themselves from their own opinion which just makes them look silly.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."