Author Topic: Toe clips  (Read 2604 times)

Toe clips
« on: 18 September, 2019, 12:24:27 pm »
I've had some knee trouble. I changed from road type pedals to some shimano click r pedals I have on my tourer. Well I actually swapped to my tourer and it was better. Pain after 2 1/2 hours instead of one. Physio said my knee is sore from pulling or strain on ligements and we discussed using pedals I'm not attached to.

I haven't used such pedals for more then a jaunt for about 20 years. If I was to use toe clips and straps do they just keep your foot on the pedal or will I be pulling up on them as well?

Kim

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Re: Toe clips
« Reply #1 on: 18 September, 2019, 12:29:15 pm »
Surely that's the whole point in the clips and straps (and modern relatives like PowerGrips), unless you leave them undone...

How about those half-toeclip things that serve to keep your foot from sliding off the pedal without offering any real retention?

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Toe clips
« Reply #2 on: 18 September, 2019, 12:37:08 pm »
Frog pedals supposedly give the most freedom of movement, which I think has more effect on ligaments than any straight up/down pulling that might be involved.

I used to use toe-hooks on my MTB because I was too scaredy-cat to clip in. They were OK for that, but for the road I'd rather have my SPDs.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #3 on: 18 September, 2019, 01:26:56 pm »
I've had some knee trouble. I changed from road type pedals to some shimano click r pedals I have on my tourer. Well I actually swapped to my tourer and it was better. Pain after 2 1/2 hours instead of one. Physio said my knee is sore from pulling or strain on ligements and we discussed using pedals I'm not attached to.

I haven't used such pedals for more then a jaunt for about 20 years. If I was to use toe clips and straps do they just keep your foot on the pedal or will I be pulling up on them as well?

Hi Johnny.  I think that I can help you out here;on several counts !!

Back in November 2007 I had a total left knee replacement and as a result I resorted to using 140mm (Thorn) cranks with my Marcel Berthet Lyotard Platform Pedals;I tried cleats and all of that but stayed with a regular'ish pedal and Christophe Toe Clips & QR Straps along with Aluminium shoe Plates.
I modified the plates with a Junior Hacksaw by making the groove wider so as to create a little float and as a result I continued riding albeit arthritis in my right shoulder and right elbow have put paid to riding drops so my beloved Steve Goff had to go .
I have retained by Bianchi Via Nirone 7 Alu Carbon Flat-bar Hybrid that I built-up from a naked frame.

I have actually got a pair of said pedals complete with toe clips ans straps on E'bay at - present and an additional pair for when they sell.
Your ears are your rear-end defenders,keep them free of clutter and possibly live longer.

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #4 on: 18 September, 2019, 05:02:19 pm »
is your physio an experienced  cyclist? If not, it might be worth getting a second opinion from one who is.

All too often the easy way out for someone in the medical profession is, when asked what to do 'because it hurts when you do XYZ' is simply to say 'don't do XYZ then'.   The advice about using pedals that don't clip you in might be in that category.

SPD pedals are not perfect but they are pretty good; click'rs have a lower release tension than standard SPDs and have slightly easier float too.   You can make the float even easier/wider angle by modifying the cleat.

FWIW most blokes with average or slightly above average sized feet tend to end up with SPD cleats set too far inboard, unless pedal extenders are used. When the cleats are in the wrong position this tilts the foot bed and leads to strain on parts of the leg that shouldn't be strained.

So anyway correctly set SPD pedals will only strain your leg three ways

1) because you pull up on the pedal
2) because the float has the wrong angle and/or the wrong stiffness
3) because the cleat is wrongly positioned laterally

FWIW if your foot twists during the downwards part of the  pedal movement, quite a lot of flat pedals are worse than clipless with easy float; the foot doesn't twist as easily against a lot of flat pedals as it does in an SPD pedal.

To modify the cleat/binding  differently;

- for more float, grind the nose and heel of the cleat (where the claws bear against the cleat) to a smaller radius or-
- grind a larger radius into the pedal jaws
- for easier float, grind the back of the cleat shorter until it is slightly shorter than the spacing of the pedal jaws (NB this also results in an easier release)
- for easier release, (beyond the range of adjustment of the binding) you can revise the springs in the pedal or modify the cleat. There are two chamfers at the back of the Multirelease cleats which are not present in the standard cleats; if these are made larger than normal then the release is made easier.

If you want to modify the springs in the pedal they are (in order of decreasing retaining force)

-Standard SPD pedal with two springs
-Click'r pedal with two springs
-standard SPD pedal with one spring
- click'r pedal with one spring

It is not at all difficult to get a setup whereby thee is oodles of easy float and/or the pedal releases at a very low force indeed.

If you get hold of some old cleats (or cheapies from e-bay) they are good for experimenting with.  A dremel tool will do for modification, but if you know what you are doing you can do well with an angle grinder.

cheers

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #5 on: 18 September, 2019, 08:54:47 pm »
He is a runner but seemed to know a bit about boles as knew the differences between the pedals and asked if I was using a mountain bike as I referred to the pedals as mountain bike clip less as can never remember which is which.  The using normal pedals was actually my suggestion after he had told me the strain had been caused by pulling force on the tendon/ligaments (can't remember which one sorry) rather then the pushing down on the pedal

Kim

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Re: Toe clips
« Reply #6 on: 18 September, 2019, 09:57:38 pm »
On that basis I'd suggest that you might be able to teach yourself to pedal without pulling up (riding on flats for a while would probably help), at which point you could probably use your existing pedals?

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #7 on: 20 September, 2019, 07:29:03 am »
Why not just use flat pedals?

If you are not racing, clipping in isn't necessary.

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #8 on: 20 September, 2019, 08:02:56 am »
Why not just use flat pedals?

If you are not racing, clipping in isn't necessary.

Or even when racing if you are Alexandera Houchin, using flat pedals and steel capped boots when setting new course records on Tour Divide this year, and winning the women's category.

Eddington: 133 miles    Max square: 43x43

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #9 on: 20 September, 2019, 09:22:22 am »
Why not just use flat pedals?

If you are not racing, clipping in isn't necessary.

Or even when racing if you are Alexandera Houchin, using flat pedals and steel capped boots when setting new course records on Tour Divide this year, and winning the women's category.

She sounds a little like a modern day Beryl Burton but with Health & Safety (Feet/Toes protection) in mind  ;D.
Your ears are your rear-end defenders,keep them free of clutter and possibly live longer.

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #10 on: 20 September, 2019, 09:29:40 am »
As per my previous reply. Even with my feet engaged in the pedals and the straps doing their job I could still get my foot/feet free with sharp upward tug as the leather straps have a measure of give/stretch that would allow the shoe plate to come free of the bar on the pedal.
Your ears are your rear-end defenders,keep them free of clutter and possibly live longer.

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #11 on: 20 September, 2019, 09:30:25 am »
Er dunno why. I've used them for last 20 years probably as came from cross country mountain biking so not slipping off in mud helped. I've never had any problems before though

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #12 on: 20 September, 2019, 10:18:01 am »
Why not just use flat pedals?

If you are not racing, clipping in isn't necessary.

Don't have to be racing to want to go faster. Also to say, I definitely am faster with clipless pedals than flats, despite some research that seems to suggest otherwise.
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #13 on: 20 September, 2019, 10:34:49 am »
Why not just use flat pedals?

If you are not racing, clipping in isn't necessary.

Don't have to be racing to want to go faster. Also to say, I definitely am faster with clipless pedals than flats, despite some research that seems to suggest otherwise.

The Marcel Berthet Lyotard Platform Pedals were the preferred pedal when I did track in the early 50's and when strapped in tight they were so secure that ill fitting cycle shoes would be left behind when eagerly push/pulling on the pedals.

I never had issues with lack of float because there was a little amount of movement in the groove of the shoe plates.

No buggered knees either because of incorrect fitment/settings.
We would ride a few days so as to mark the soles of our shoes so that the bar would allow correct plate positioning.
Your ears are your rear-end defenders,keep them free of clutter and possibly live longer.

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #14 on: 20 September, 2019, 11:08:58 am »
….I never had issues with lack of float because there was a little amount of movement in the groove of the shoe plates.

No buggered knees either because of incorrect fitment/settings.
We would ride a few days so as to mark the soles of our shoes so that the bar would allow correct plate positioning.

If you ride with no cleats you may get a very clear mark. Which is fine. But you may get an indistinct mark, which is not so good. One of the ways you can get an indistinct mark is if the foot wants to twist during the power stroke.  My right foot does this and my left foot doesn't.

Take it from me, if you foot does this, there is no single cleat setting that doesn't cause knee pain. BITD I used Sidi titaniums and I had to file the RH cleat so that the slot was an hourglass shape. Until I figured this out I had various combinations of knee pain and prematurely worn RH cleats/pedals.  With the modified cleat there was a little bit of float and the float was 'easy' if I used steel caged (Nuovo Record) pedals because the cleats were some kind of fairly slippery plastic (Delrin?).

These days I use SPDs; there is enough float to keep me happy and that float is 'easy' enough for me too.  I still wear out the RH cleat/binding first (because of the persistent movement), despite the fact that I unclip on the left side (which also wears the mechanism quite fast) two or three times as often as on the RH side.

cheers

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #15 on: 20 September, 2019, 11:23:45 am »
Hi Brucey. I was not talking about CLEATS at all but was talking about aluminium shoe plates that get fixed to the soles of Traditional Leather Cycling Shoes with tiny nails or in my case with very tiny screws that cannot come out unless purposely backed-off.

Riding the pedals whether they be Platform or Rat Trap they will mark the soles of new/previously used shoes and give a very very accurate location for the shoe plates.
Your ears are your rear-end defenders,keep them free of clutter and possibly live longer.

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #16 on: 20 September, 2019, 11:40:37 am »
Hi Brucey. I was not talking about CLEATS at all but was talking about aluminium shoe plates that get fixed to the soles of Traditional Leather Cycling Shoes with tiny nails or in my case with very tiny screws that cannot come out unless purposely backed-off.

Riding the pedals whether they be Platform or Rat Trap they will mark the soles of new/previously used shoes and give a very very accurate location for the shoe plates.

yeah yeah, that's what I started with. They're called cleats too.  With that setup I used to suffer various combinations of knee pain, wearing out the RH cleat/pedal and wringing the RH cleat off the shoe.

  For the reasons I have described not everyone (in fact relatively few people)  can ride without any float at all.   No modern pedal system has no option that gives some float, and relatively few offer an option that gives no float.

FWIW when LOOK pedals were first introduced the only cleats were the black ones, with no float. I couldn't use them. Nor could most of my chums, as it turned out. Most of them changed to red cleats (which offered some float) as soon as they became available and many of them reported that their knee pains just went away as soon as they did so. So prevalent was this that for a while, you couldn't give black cleats away.

I suspect that nailed on, tight-fitting cleats only worked BITD because typical shoes offered so little support that the foot often moved around inside the shoe; with more supportive modern shoes this isn't a possibility.

cheers

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Toe clips
« Reply #17 on: 20 September, 2019, 03:00:09 pm »
Why not just use flat pedals?

If you are not racing, clipping in isn't necessary.

Don't have to be racing to want to go faster. Also to say, I definitely am faster with clipless pedals than flats, despite some research that seems to suggest otherwise.
In my case it's nothing to do with going faster or pedalling more efficiently. It's because I naturally come to a stop with my right foot down, left foot up, but I start off with my right foot pushing, so toe clips or cleats allow me to reposition my pedals easily without scratching the tops of my shoes on the underside of the pedals. Also, stops my feet sliding off when not pressing hard.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

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Re: Toe clips
« Reply #18 on: 20 September, 2019, 05:57:26 pm »
For me it was originally about keeping my foot straight, to prevent OwMeKnee.

Since then, I've also come to appreciate my feet not slipping off the pedals (especially on recumbents, where it can be an important safety feature), and less faff resetting the pedals to starting position.

I remain unconvinced that they make me go faster, other than by allowing me to ride my bike more (because less knee pain) and to ride at speed on bumpy surfaces without worrying about bashing my shins or breaking my ankles.

The reduced shoe wear is a welcome bonus.  I hate shoe-shopping.

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #19 on: 21 September, 2019, 01:01:02 pm »
Why not just use flat pedals?

If you are not racing, clipping in isn't necessary.

Or even when racing if you are Alexandera Houchin, using flat pedals and steel capped boots when setting new course records on Tour Divide this year, and winning the women's category.

Sure, I meant road racing where you are in a bunch and might need to sprint, the two situations where a pedal slip would be a problem. But for ultra racing, absolutely. I used flat pedals on TCR this year.

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #20 on: 22 September, 2019, 05:10:26 pm »
BITD I had shoe plates (or cleats) and racing shoes that I gave up on very quickly because the soles were just too thin (in spite of having metallic inserts to stiffen them). I used my ordinary shoes (that don't exist now 'cos every one wears trainers - sneakers, baskets etc) which I could strap in sufficiently tight that opening the strap was the only way to get my foot out. No problems aligning plates. Walking on plates for me usually ended up with the damned things bending or the slot scuffing, meaning that getting clipped in was impossible without taking a file to them first. GODs (I don't think). When I came round to SPDs I saw the light, instant conversion. Never had a problem with legs or knees due to the pedals in spite of having enough arthritis to need a knee replacement.

In recent years I have on occasion used bikes (pool tandems) with clips and straps. There is a major disadvantage in that I have size 47 feet and the clips are never long enough. I think finding decent long clips must be a major operation these days. On the tandems my usual answer was to use the strap to pull the clip right up to the pedal so that it didn't get in the way and then use the other face. Otherwise removing the clip or replacing the pedal with an SPD were options but not for a morning's ride. The only bikes that I have with flat pedals don't have clips and I don't miss them. Half clips are the work of Stan, get in the way without doing anything good!

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #21 on: 22 September, 2019, 10:33:26 pm »
I agree with Frank, unless you are racing or want to go fast on the road then modern flat pedals are the way to go; far better than toe clips and straps.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Toe clips
« Reply #22 on: 23 September, 2019, 11:16:42 am »
if i was going on a long tour flat pedals would be my choice. but i've no idea which shoes i'd need to get. i've searched several times and couldn't find a suitable pair (light(ish), stiff(ish), quick drying, durable).

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #23 on: 23 September, 2019, 02:35:34 pm »
I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that pretty much any shoes will do!

Zero, or minimal, heel drop is desirable.  As is a wedge-shaped sole (ie no instep, not contradicting my previous point!).  Then whatever is comfortable. 

Re: Toe clips
« Reply #24 on: 23 September, 2019, 06:35:45 pm »
I looked at this a couple of years ago and eventually found a pair of shoes at Sports Direct that met my criteria - low heel and very stiff sole. Cheap wasn't an absolute requirement, but they were. I /think/ they were indoor soccer shoes.

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