e-scooter trial

[rogerzilla]

Halfords are reporting soaring sales of e-scooters.  I didn't know so many people had enormous gardens with tarmac roads.

[DuncanM]

You need a driving licence to ride a scooter? WTAF.

They are a powered 2 wheeler - without the current "trial" hire schemes, to ride one on the public road you would need it to have an MOT, tax, insurance, and you would need the relevant motorbike/scooter licence and a motorbike helmet. I think that the car license thing is a way of ensuring some element of road knowledge, ruling out little kids using them, and tying the scooter to a human (so consequences are available). The whole bumf about how the "trial" schemes work in is the first few pages of this thread.

[ian]

You need a driving licence to ride a scooter? WTAF.

They are a powered 2 wheeler - without the current "trial" hire schemes, to ride one on the public road you would need it to have an MOT, tax, insurance, and you would need the relevant motorbike/scooter licence and a motorbike helmet. I think that the car license thing is a way of ensuring some element of road knowledge, ruling out little kids using them, and tying the scooter to a human (so consequences are available). The whole bumf about how the "trial" schemes work in is the first few pages of this thread.

Maybe I misunderstand, the picture was of a scooter, one of those little things you stand on and, erm, scoot. Obviously with an electric assist, but still a scooter. As I don't hold a British driving licence I can't even operate a scooter, a skill most four-year-old can be gifted with.

I'm not sure how they became more of a potential menace than oversized motor vehicles that must be regulated into unusability, but I suspect that's the point. Will someone protect me from this scooter menace!

[grams]

You only need a provisional license, so no actual driving qualifications required. Is solely for ID.

[nuttycyclist]

I'm not overly interested in e-scooters or the arguments re new technology.  Part of me says "let's just do what we want" and the other part of me says "what a frikken annoyance".

I ventured out of lockdown earlier this month, and hated it as so many people were crammed together in a public park.  It was just like pre-plague times when nobody respected personal space. 

A few children were buzzing around on e-scooters, two up at times, and they were clearly under a driving test age.  I was jealous as I wanted a go, they looked like fun.  Yes it was annoying that I had to watch myself and my children in case they got knocked over, but realistically the scooter riders were keeping clear and having more fun.  It reminded me of my childhood days of strapping roller skates to my shoes, or cycling, and getting on with life instead of worrying about legislation.

If there wasn't so much fuss about this, and I didn't need to lose weight, I'd be first in the queue to buy one for ease of getting about.


Question:  I saw somebody the other week nipping in to town to shop on an e-scooter.  He has no legs due to an IED in a relatively recent warzone.  Should he be allowed his freedom or should he be stuck at home?

[ian]

You only need a provisional license, so no actual driving qualifications required. Is solely for ID.

I don't have a provisional either (unless they want to accept a very expired US license and I don't think they do, for that matter neither does my wife, who is curiously resistant to me driving our car, though she says she's unlikely to revise that view if I do get around to learning to drive UK style which I keep claiming I'm going to).

I'm just too cool to scoot.

[jsabine]

Question:  I saw somebody the other week nipping in to town to shop on an e-scooter.  He has no legs due to an IED in a relatively recent warzone.  Should he be allowed his freedom or should he be stuck at home?

False dichotomy, as I'm sure you well know. Chap down the road from us has half the usual complement of limbs for similar if not identical reasons, and seems to find that some combination of artificial legs, wheelchair, and shagged VW Golf enables him to avoid being stuck at home fairly effectively, with no sign of any scooter, e- or otherwise.

[nuttycyclist]

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't suggesting that e-scooter was his only option (and I feel bad discussing 3rd party person without permission).  He has other vehicles available, has other hobbies, is definitely able to go out walking/running, so this isn't a comment from me that e-scooter is essential for some people.  I've been in his house and he has a very good sense of humour and it was a pleasure to meet him.

[DuncanM]

You need a driving licence to ride a scooter? WTAF.

They are a powered 2 wheeler - without the current "trial" hire schemes, to ride one on the public road you would need it to have an MOT, tax, insurance, and you would need the relevant motorbike/scooter licence and a motorbike helmet. I think that the car license thing is a way of ensuring some element of road knowledge, ruling out little kids using them, and tying the scooter to a human (so consequences are available). The whole bumf about how the "trial" schemes work in is the first few pages of this thread.

Maybe I misunderstand, the picture was of a scooter, one of those little things you stand on and, erm, scoot. Obviously with an electric assist, but still a scooter. As I don't hold a British driving licence I can't even operate a scooter, a skill most four-year-old can be gifted with.

UK road law is basically built around powered things like cars and motorbikes, and unpowered things like bicycles and horses. Legal e-assist bikes are a recent special case, and are limited in terms of power and speed, and only provide power when you are turning the cranks (hence the assist bit).
Electric scooters are not e-assist (just twist a throttle and go), so they ended up having to create new rules and apply restrictions on how they can be used legally. Without the restrictions (licensing, insurance etc), they probably wouldn't have been able to get them through parliament, which is presumably why privately owned ones are still illegal to use on the road. That doesn't stop people doing 30mph on their privately owned e-scooters (or indeed e-skateboards), but...

[nuttycyclist]

So to summarise, way way back in the 1800s somebody invented a way to add two wheels to a beam of wood and thus create a velocipede.
This caused much upset.

200+ years later many people enjoy riding their velocipede, and are upset that a different form of transport is hitting the headlines.

[ian]

Jesus people, will none of you protect me against this menace. At least 10 people have already been killed by e-scooters today, and I didn't even make up that fact at all.

[delthebike]

Jesus people, will none of you protect me against this menace. At least 10 people have already been killed by e-scooters today, and I didn't even make up that fact at all.

I'm not surprised at the death rate if they ride like this Mum and Dad, two up with the toddlers! 
https://youtu.be/wXwmY2JRefo

[ian]

Really? That looks like good fun and a great way to get around with the kids.

[Kim]

You only need a provisional license, so no actual driving qualifications required. Is solely for ID.

Voi require a Category Q licence.  That's the 25cc moped thing that they give away with provisional car licences.

[Kim]

UK road law is basically built around powered things like cars and motorbikes, and unpowered things like bicycles and horses. Legal e-assist bikes are a recent special case, and are limited in terms of power and speed, and only provide power when you are turning the cranks (hence the assist bit).

The needing to turn the cranks thing is a relatively recent modification to the original BRITISH EAPC regulations, which permitted hand-throttle-only control, in order to harmonise the pedalec standard across the EU.  E-cycles built to the older standard remain legal to operate by hand control, at least in the UK.

This is a IMHO a stupid idea.  If it's limited to $speed and $power, it doesn't matter to other road users what the pedals are doing.  Denying hand-only^[1] control severely reduces their utility to disabled people, for the minimal safety benefit of a cycle that won't leap out of your hand^[2] if you touch the wrong thing while wheeling it.  I know at least one disabled rider who dreads the failure of his ageing electric-assist system, as he relies on throttle-only operation to be able to get home when his legs let him down without warning.


_{[1] You can have a hand throttle to control the power output a modern e-bike, but it needs to be interlocked with some form of pedal sensing to comply.
[2] Especially as the rules do allow for a 'wheeling mode' where the bike can be propelled electrically at less than about 4mph by hand control.}

[DuncanM]

So to summarise, way way back in the 1800s somebody invented a way to add two wheels to a beam of wood and thus create a velocipede.
This caused much upset.

200+ years later many people enjoy riding their velocipede, and are upset that a different form of transport is hitting the headlines.

I don't recall anyone in this thread being upset about e-scooters (except the odd bit of inconsiderate parking/riding, which are a consequence of humans, not transport device)?

UK road law is basically built around powered things like cars and motorbikes, and unpowered things like bicycles and horses. Legal e-assist bikes are a recent special case, and are limited in terms of power and speed, and only provide power when you are turning the cranks (hence the assist bit).

The needing to turn the cranks thing is a relatively recent modification to the original BRITISH EAPC regulations, which permitted hand-throttle-only control, in order to harmonise the pedalec standard across the EU.  E-cycles built to the older standard remain legal to operate by hand control, at least in the UK.

This is a IMHO a stupid idea.  If it's limited to $speed and $power, it doesn't matter to other road users what the pedals are doing.  Denying hand-only^[1] control severely reduces their utility to disabled people, for the minimal safety benefit of a cycle that won't leap out of your hand^[2] if you touch the wrong thing while wheeling it.  I know at least one disabled rider who dreads the failure of his ageing electric-assist system, as he relies on throttle-only operation to be able to get home when his legs let him down without warning.

Yes, it is a stupid idea.  The person you know is probably OK, in that most of the Chinese supplied aftermarket kits seem to default to hand throttle operation.

[Kim]

Yes, were I in that position I'd have no qualms about using a non-compliant throttle system (preferably one where the difference between compliance and non-compliance was software configurable), while keeping to the approved power and speed limits and generally Not Failing The Attitude Test.

[Ashaman42]

UK road law is basically built around powered things like cars and motorbikes, and unpowered things like bicycles and horses. Legal e-assist bikes are a recent special case, and are limited in terms of power and speed, and only provide power when you are turning the cranks (hence the assist bit).

The needing to turn the cranks thing is a relatively recent modification to the original BRITISH EAPC regulations, which permitted hand-throttle-only control, in order to harmonise the pedalec standard across the EU.  E-cycles built to the older standard remain legal to operate by hand control, at least in the UK.

This is a IMHO a stupid idea.  If it's limited to $speed and $power, it doesn't matter to other road users what the pedals are doing.  Denying hand-only^[1] control severely reduces their utility to disabled people, for the minimal safety benefit of a cycle that won't leap out of your hand^[2] if you touch the wrong thing while wheeling it.  I know at least one disabled rider who dreads the failure of his ageing electric-assist system, as he relies on throttle-only operation to be able to get home when his legs let him down without warning.


_{[1] You can have a hand throttle to control the power output a modern e-bike, but it needs to be interlocked with some form of pedal sensing to comply.
[2] Especially as the rules do allow for a 'wheeling mode' where the bike can be propelled electrically at less than about 4mph by hand control.}

And if you've got a bike with a hub gear (or possibly just my bike )and forget to keep a brake lever slightly pulled to trigger the cutout you'll find there's just enough stiction in the hub to turn the pedals which then engages the motor and then the bike tries to fuck off thataway at whatever power level the bike was last set to...

Which is fun.

[DuncanM]

I knew that riding an electric scooter on public roads was an offense.  I didn't know you could get points on your license:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-72Hc75mMU

Though I have relatively little sympathy with running a business just selling electric scooters as personal transport, when they know full well that anyone who does that is breaking the law.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Jesus people, will none of you protect me against this menace. At least 10 people have already been killed by e-scooters today, and I didn't even make up that fact at all.

I'm not surprised at the death rate if they ride like this Mum and Dad, two up with the toddlers! 
https://youtu.be/wXwmY2JRefo

Even worse, I've seen parents do this just *pushing* their kids by *hand* in a flimsy so-called "buggy" in front of them. I mean, what chance have they got if an SUV hits them? Surely these death-traps should at least have air bags!

Still, at least they're not just holding the little ones by the hand and making them *walk* on their own *feet* like we had to do when we were small.

[Kim]

I noticed the other day that Voi are using some sort of cargo trike for servicing the scooters in central Brum.  Makes more sense than the van, if they're just swapping batteries.   

Meanhwile, someone's parked one perpendicularly blocking the pavement outside our house...   

[andrewc]

https://twitter.com/LdnOntBikeCafe/status/1406983546313576448?s=20


A little video from China, showing different forms of non car personal transport.  Loving the one that folds itself up.

[Diver300]

I saw one of these today, parked outside a shop as I walked past. The motorbike fat tyres caught my eye and then the two seats. A few minutes later it whizzed past me at a rate of knots. That is why I looked it up (here, on Amazon) when I got home, noticing it can do 50kph (a bit over 30mph).

It is called both an e-scooter and an e-bike but it resembles a Vespa scooter more than a child's stand on, push along scooter. I would call it an e-motorbike. I wonder what governments will classify these as.

By the way, the description on Amazon made me laugh. It is described as light weight, easy to take upstairs, yet the net weight is 58kg. Have you ever tried carrying 58kg upstairs?

They would be mopeds. Perfectly legal, once you have a numberplate, insurance, VED (zero, or close to) and a motorcycle helmet.

<sarcasm>As they can do 30 mph, they won't slow down any cars in town, so anyone driving them won't be hooted at for annoying drivers, or close passed, or told that they need insurance, tax and to stop jumping red lights.</sarcasm>

[philip]

They would be mopeds. Perfectly legal, once you have a numberplate, insurance, VED (zero, or close to) and a motorcycle helmet.

Before you can get a numberplate you would need to get motorcycle single vehicle approval from the DVSA, unless the manufacturer has already had the vehicle type approved (unlikely). In addition, 50kph might be too much to be a moped so it may have to be a motorcycle.

[MikeFromLFE]

<sarcasm>As they can do 30 mph, they won't slow down any cars in town, so anyone driving them won't be hooted at for annoying drivers, or close passed, or told that they need insurance, tax and to stop jumping red lights.</sarcasm>

Your <sarcasm> is completely justified. Some years ago I had the misfortune to own a Tomos 50cc moped (complete with pedals) and it was the most terrifying vehicle, powered or otherwise, I've ever used. It wasn't the thing itself, but that it could only just do 30mph, and had bugger all acceleration. Close passes? Beeps? Tailgating? Yep, all of them.
This would likely be similar. (Except the exhaust wouldn't self-destruct)