Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: KidJambo on 04 March, 2010, 12:40:09 pm
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I have posted similar topics before in the past but am starting a new version of this to see if anything has changed since we last discussed things.
For those of you who don't know me, I work for Michelin Tyres and am responsible for all cycle product related activity in the UK and Scandinavia. Periodically we are asked to complete a report on "product needs"; basically products we think are missing from our range - this could be areas where we don't have a current offer, existing products that require tweaking or current products in different dimensions or colours etc. In the past I have relied on information from our wholesale distribution partners and key retailers for their suggestions but I thought that who better to ask than the dedicated cycling population at large and the people who will actually (hopefully) buy and use the products. Basically this is your opportunity to tell a major manufacturer where you think we are missing out and dictate our direction for the future. I promise that all serious suggestions will be included in my report to the central management team. I can't promise that anything will come of this - as I have said on other posts, what we produce is largely dictated by the size of the potential market, what percentage of this market we could hope to gain and thus what return we could expect versus any investment that we would have to make - but you might just see something you have suggested in our catalogues in years to come!
So, over to you guys! :D
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As you know I am a big fan of your ProXX Grip. Fast and very, very grippy. I rode LEJOG on them (lightweight[1] touring) and had three punctures - two snakebite and one where the casing tore.
Only downside is the cost and the longevity - they cut up really easily but I suppose that is the consequence of having grippy rubber.
A wider size (25/28) woould be good for winter training on the dodgy Scottish roads.
..d
[1] the bike, not me :-\
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Reasonably wide tyres - 28 or 32 mm - with very low rolling resistance and low weight.
Most of the wider ones are heavy & slow; Panaracers are one of the few that are not, so maybe something (even) lighter than a Panaracer but with better puncture resistance and tougher sidewalls.
edit: cross post with David.
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A ProRace3 Grip in a 25 and a 28 with a vectran or equivalent layer.
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A ProRace3 Grip in a 25 and a 28 with a vectran or equivalent layer.
Would a Krylion Carbon with a softer rubber compound work do you think?
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Possibly.
I know it is probably asking for the impossible: a tyre with the ride quality of the Pro3 but with an effective protective barrier.
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Basically this is your opportunity to tell a major manufacturer where you think we are missing out and dictate our direction for the future.
Oh, and before anyone says that they want a tyre that lasts forever, never punctures, has zero rolling resistance, weighs less than a feather and costs 10p, I should point out that we are tyre manufacturers and not miracle workers! LMAO
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Possibly.
I know it is probably asking for the impossible: a tyre with the ride quality of the Pro3 but with an effective protective barrier.
It is possible but as soon as you start putting puncture-protection layers into the construction then you start adding weight and compromising the feel of the tyre. This is one reason why we use a simple and lightweight HDPP layer in the Pro range and use more substantial reinforcing in the Krylion Carbon
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On the subject of width, comfort and rolling resistance.
I think that the critical aspect isn't the width, but the tyre volume. Higher volumes=less pressure required for the same tyre behaviour. Lower pressures=more comfort on coarse surfaces and less energy lost to vertical movement of the wheel (and rider). I believe in cars they have the concept of 'suspended' and 'unsuspended' weight. For performance, road holding and efficiency, they try to reduce the unsuspended weight.
For a bike with rigid tyres, the unsuspended weight would effectively be the whole bike plus rider and similar for very high-pressure tyres.
Reduce the pressure, and there is less vertical movement of the bike, more 'suspension' provided by the tyre.
So, here are some figures for volumes.
width(diameter) Area (mm) %difference (from tyre above)
19 284.107
23 416.323 47
25 491.875 18 73 (% difference between 19mm and 25mm)
28 617.008 25 48 (% difference between 23mm and 28mm)
32 805.888 31
Massive difference between 19 and 23.
Similar difference between the racer's favourite, 23, and the old touring standard of 28.
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On the subject of width, comfort and rolling resistance.
I think that the critical aspect isn't the width, but the tyre volume. Higher volumes=less pressure required for the same tyre behaviour. Lower pressures=more comfort on coarse surfaces and less energy lost to vertical movement of the wheel (and rider). I believe in cars they have the concept of 'suspended' and 'unsuspended' weight. For performance, road holding and efficiency, they try to reduce the unsuspended weight.
For a bike with rigid tyres, the unsuspended weight would effectively be the whole bike plus rider and similar for very high-pressure tyres.
Reduce the pressure, and there is less vertical movement of the bike, more 'suspension' provided by the tyre.
So, here are some figures for volumes.
width(diameter) Area (mm) %difference (from tyre above)
19 284.107
23 416.323 47
25 491.875 18
28 617.008 25 48 (% difference between 23mm and 28mm)
32 805.888 31
Massive difference between 19 and 23.
Similar difference between the racer's favourite, 23, and the old touring standard of 28.
A very perceptive post!
From what I remember from our internal tests, the difference in rolling resistance between 23mm and 20mm was not so great but you can obviously see the added benefit from the larger volume of air in your figures! One reason why I tend to ride 25C rather than 23C also! :D
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28s and 32s (at lower pressures) get you more grip too
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Possibly.
I know it is probably asking for the impossible: a tyre with the ride quality of the Pro3 but with an effective protective barrier.
It is possible but as soon as you start putting puncture-protection layers into the construction then you start adding weight and compromising the feel of the tyre. This is one reason why we use a simple and lightweight HDPP layer in the Pro range and use more substantial reinforcing in the Krylion Carbon
Possibly stupid question but do you have a tyre which is somewhere between the Pro3 and the Krylion Carbon?
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On a personal observation, yesterday I topped up my tyres - the front was at 80. I wanged it up to just over 95, rear the same.
What a mistake. When I hit the really bad broken road I struggled to maintain 25kph. The bike bucked and hammered underneath me.
Before going home, I dropped it to 85psi, rear just under 90. Flew over the same bit of road at 30kph. On the smoother bits later on I averaged well over 32kph.
Most of us realise you can't have supple, light tyres and wonderful puncture resistance. We'll settle for a compromise.
There are many choices for heavy puncture-resistant tyres. There are good well-known fast tyres.
The middle ground is a bit meh. The best of the bunch all suffer from weak sidewalls. I think Panaracer are trying to grab it with the RibMo.
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Possibly.
I know it is probably asking for the impossible: a tyre with the ride quality of the Pro3 but with an effective protective barrier.
It is possible but as soon as you start putting puncture-protection layers into the construction then you start adding weight and compromising the feel of the tyre. This is one reason why we use a simple and lightweight HDPP layer in the Pro range and use more substantial reinforcing in the Krylion Carbon
Possibly stupid question but do you have a tyre which is somewhere between the Pro3 and the Krylion Carbon?
In terms of performance the new Pro Optimum is kinda between the two although only available in 25C at present
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On a personal observation, yesterday I topped up my tyres - the front was at 80. I wanged it up to just over 95, rear the same.
What a mistake. When I hit the really bad broken road I struggled to maintain 25kph. The bike bucked and hammered underneath me.
Before going home, I dropped it to 85psi, rear just under 90. Flew over the same bit of road at 30kph. On the smoother bits later on I averaged well over 32kph.
agreed
I remember on the Kidderminster Killer a few years ago really struggling on the bumpy, skoggy lanes. 10 psi out of the tyres and the bike was flying :)
On a billiard-table-smooth road (yeah, right) of course, hard tyres usually roll better...
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Krylin Carbon in 25-559 or 28-559 would be nice. Any fast-ish road tyre in 559 size would be nice.
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28s and 32s (at lower pressures) get you more grip too
I know we've discussed this before, but why is that? For the same rubber, frictional force:
F = [mu] x Weight
where mu is constant (but higher for grippier rubber)
Lowering the pressure may increase contact patch, but doesn't change the above equation.
There's probably more to this - I remember some discussion about the contact patch being a different shape ... ?
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Krylin Carbon in 25-559 or 28-559 would be nice. Any fast-ish road tyre in 559 size would be nice.
In the new WILD range of MTB tyres there is a pure slick - Wild Run'R - replaces the old XCR Road
Additionally, the Pilot Sport - lightweight cut-slick commuter tyre for lightweight hybrids - will be available in 26" later in the year!
:D
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28s and 32s (at lower pressures) get you more grip too
I know we've discussed this before, but why is that? For the same rubber, frictional force:
F = [mu] x Weight
where mu is constant (but higher for grippier rubber)
Lowering the pressure may increase contact patch, but doesn't change the above equation.
There's probably more to this - I remember some discussion about the contact patch being a different shape ... ?
I think its all to do with the shape of the contact patch and subsequent changes in performance of the tyre...blimey this is getting a bit heavy for a bit of lunchtime banter....am I going to have to get a coffee or something stronger?
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28s and 32s (at lower pressures) get you more grip too
I know we've discussed this before, but why is that? For the same rubber, frictional force:
F = [mu] x Weight
where mu is constant (but higher for grippier rubber)
Lowering the pressure may increase contact patch, but doesn't change the above equation.
There's probably more to this - I remember some discussion about the contact patch being a different shape ... ?
Better contact shape, for sure (less rolling resistence) but what I meant (and i can see why it was a bit confusing) was that as Mr C said you can get away with running 28s and 32s at lower pressures and therefor you get a bigger contact area, and one more conformal to a non-flat road surface. That coupled with the extra suspension effect makes the bike less likely to part company with the road surface.
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I'd like a fast road tyre in 26x1 3/8 size, so something like 25-590 in the ERTO size.
I think I might be a market of one, though! :) (So, I'll carry on buying World Tours as they are the best of the 26x1 3/8 tyres I've used).
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I'd like a fast road tyre in 26x1 3/8 size, so something like 25-590 in the ERTO size.
I think I might be a market of one, though! :) (So, I'll carry on buying World Tours as they are the best of the 26x1 3/8 tyres I've used).
I think my previous note about potential market and thus return versus investment applies here....I know we are trying to ensure we make a tyre for everyone but I don't think that implies we will meet each individuals request! LOL
Stick to World Tour...they'll be around for a while yet! :D
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28s and 32s (at lower pressures) get you more grip too
I know we've discussed this before, but why is that? For the same rubber, frictional force:
F = [mu] x Weight
where mu is constant (but higher for grippier rubber)
Lowering the pressure may increase contact patch, but doesn't change the above equation.
There's probably more to this - I remember some discussion about the contact patch being a different shape ... ?
I guess part of the difference is down to how much time the tyre is in contact with the surface (or is weighted with the full weight of rider plus bike). On less than perfectly smooth surfaces, received wisdom holds that harder tyres bounce more and softer tyres absorb more of the imperfections, thus staying in contact. Whilst bouncing (whether fully off the ground, or just partially unweighting the wheel), the "weight" in the friction formula would therefore spend some time at less than the normal weight for the tyre (down to 0 if the tyre actually leaves the ground).
[Of course, to accelerate the bike plus rider upwards off the ground, there will be a time before the bike leaves the ground when the effective weight is higher too --- I have no feeling for how those effects may average/cancel out]
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Krylin Carbon in 25-559 or 28-559 would be nice. Any fast-ish road tyre in 559 size would be nice.
In the new WILD range of MTB tyres there is a pure slick - Wild Run'R - replaces the old XCR Road
Additionally, the Pilot Sport - lightweight cut-slick commuter tyre for lightweight hybrids - will be available in 26" later in the year!
:D
Sounds good.
Could not find the Wild range in Michelin in the UK & Ireland: Tyres, Maps, Guides and Atlases (http://www.michelin.co.uk)
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I know we've discussed this before, but why is that? For the same rubber, frictional force:
F = [mu] x Weight
where mu is constant (but higher for grippier rubber)
Lowering the pressure may increase contact patch, but doesn't change the above equation.
You've got to remember that's just a model of what happens, and like most models it doesn't necessarily hold in all circumstances. Rubber is a non standard material, and a bigger contact area gives more grip even though the contact pressure is reduced.
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I'd like Schwalbe to make the Marathon Plus in 26x1.5" for use on my every day machine. The 1.35" is a bit too small. The 1.75" is a bit too big. There is no pleasing some people.... ::-)
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Krylin Carbon in 25-559 or 28-559 would be nice. Any fast-ish road tyre in 559 size would be nice.
In the new WILD range of MTB tyres there is a pure slick - Wild Run'R - replaces the old XCR Road
Additionally, the Pilot Sport - lightweight cut-slick commuter tyre for lightweight hybrids - will be available in 26" later in the year!
:D
Sounds good.
Could not find the Wild range in Michelin in the UK & Ireland: Tyres, Maps, Guides and Atlases (http://www.michelin.co.uk)
The normal website would be Bike tyres, Bike tyre range, mtb tyres- Michelin (http://www.michelin.co.uk/bicycle) but we are building a new site. There is a new MTB tyre selector - visit Michelin Wild Bike (http://www.michelinwildbike.com) to see more! :D
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I'd like a decent light training tyre in sizes up to 35c, possibly based on the Kyrilion Carbon. Something to give the Pasela a bit of competition.
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I'd like a decent light training tyre in sizes up to 35c, possibly based on the Kyrilion Carbon. Something to give the Pasela a bit of competition.
Are you talking full slick or treaded?
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I'd like a decent light training tyre in sizes up to 35c, possibly based on the Kyrilion Carbon. Something to give the Pasela a bit of competition.
Are you talking full slick or treaded?
We'd like the line from Lord of the Rings engraved on the outside.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, etc"
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These are my favourite tyres at the moment (for three different bikes):
* Vittoria Open Corsa CX (previous version, 290 TPI) 700x23
* Vittoria Rubino Pro 700x25
* Schwalbe Marathon Plus 700x28
It would be good if you can beat each of those in terms of price, weight or grip without compromising on puncture/cut/rip resistance and speed. I wouldn't mind if they were a bit less hard wearing if grip was significantly higher.
I'd like the tyres to be as easy to fit as Vittoria's as well.
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I'd say something in 700x32, fast yet reasonable puncture protection, comfy but without fragile sidewalls, very light tread. Something a bit like a Panaracer Pasela, but without fragile sidewalls that crack / split.
Currently running Conti City Contacts on my touring / commuting bike, although they are comfy, they are somewhat heavy. I'll probably look for something lighter for the summer time!
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I'd like the tyres to be as easy to fit as Vittoria's as well.
can I ask what rims you use as I have always found Vittoria a bugger to fit! :s
See - you say you don't mind if durability is compromised for increased grip whereas I have just had a message on another forum saying that the durability is the key and maybe we should make our tyres harder as grip is less of a factor! :s
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I think it depends on the roads and weather.
Daytime rides on dry bitumen - most tyres are grippy enough.
Riding day and night, frequently in wet weather and heavy traffic - grip matters.
Durability is about two things, IME:
Wear
Resistance to cuts.
Some tyres are noted for wearing away. I've found Conti's to wear quickly, leaving a flat patch on the centreline.
Some tyres cut easily - so glass and small sharp stones destroy them. Recently had to bin a tyre for this, even tho' I tried booting it.
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MrC is right. I really don't mind wearing tyres out - even if it is within a frighteningly short period of time. At least they will have usually been lovely and fast and grippy in their short life.
What really annoys me (and makes me unlikely to want to buy that type of tyre again) is a tyre that's not worn away, but which is rendered unreliable through being heavily cut. Fair enough, taking a summer race tyre for a long winter auxdax down flinty lanes will do for most lightweight, skinny tyres, but I don't expect it on anything branded "puncture resistant".
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A tyre that is easy to put on and take off but then again if it is puncture proof then I do not need to take it off so often :)
Thanks KidJambo for this a great idea and I which any manufacture would do this more often.
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can I ask what rims you use as I have always found Vittoria a bugger to fit! :s
Mavic Open Pro. Once used a bit, I can even remove Open Corsas from them without levers. Rubino Pros are a bit tighter but still no problem. I know you say Michelin tyres are closer to what they're supposed to be in size than Vittoria's, but nevertheless my vote goes to making them easier (slightly larger).
See - you say you don't mind if durability is compromised for increased grip whereas I have just had a message on another forum saying that the durability is the key and maybe we should make our tyres harder as grip is less of a factor! :s
You could (and I suppose do) have some soft models and some hard models.
Re cut resistance: that can come from the layer beneath the rubber, or the casing, if soft rubber is more prone to cutting. It doesn't actually matter if the rubber gets severely cut up as long as the casing remains intact.
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I'd like a decent light training tyre in sizes up to 35c, possibly based on the Kyrilion Carbon. Something to give the Pasela a bit of competition.
Are you talking full slick or treaded?
I agree with Andrew in terms of some competition for the Pasela.
The Pro Race Optimum sounds excellent and I would would probably try a pair in 28 if available, although I'll proably equally try them in 25c.
A stickier Krylion Carbon would fit the bill too.
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I would be keen to see a MTB tyre the same width and waffle tread pattern as a cyclo cross tyre.
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I would be keen to see a MTB tyre the same width and waffle tread pattern as a cyclo cross tyre.
Seen the XCR dry?
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I agree with having some more competition for the Pasela as well. Sidewalls should be stronger, but only slightly because I don't want much less flexibility (increased rolling resistance). The sidewalls should be black, too!
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Having read in 3 places that the Michelin 25mm is the same width as the Conti 4S 28mm, I've taken a punt and ordered a k carbon in 25mm (I had ordered a RiBMo, but they don't seem to be available).
Will be reporting back. Maybe Michelin are already matching the conti and pasela offerings and we just don't know it.
Have measured my tyres (Open pro rim).
Pasela - 28mm
GP4s - 27mm
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I would be keen to see a MTB tyre the same width and waffle tread pattern as a cyclo cross tyre.
Seen the XCR dry?
I had an XCR road - it lasted 50miles :(
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I'm with Biggsy on this. I currently use Marathon Plus 25s, but I'm going back to 28s next time they wear out. The protection is second to none, but there is a slight rolling resistance problem, and the sidewalls are ridiculously thick. Yes, something like a Pasela, with protection comparable to an M+ (fit & forget), but less fragile sidewalls (albeit black, as Biggsy suggests) would be a great tyre. Sizes from 23 to 35 would probably cover the market.
I ask a lot of the rubber I ride. It has to cope with the potholes of London, for a start, and occasional touring, as well as the occasional bit of roughstuff. M+ is the only one on the market that actually fits the bill.
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More tyres that actually fit on Campag rims. I'm running Vredstein Fortezza Tricomps on my Neutrons because I managed to get them on. I did fit Michelins, but it took me an hour to get them on and that was sitting in the house. I took them off again immediately because I realised that I'd never manage it with cold wet hands at the side of the road.
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While not as important as wear and grip, this question of ease of fitting is still important. One of the reasons I like Pasalas is that I can fit them and take them off my Open-Pros without levers (the latter naturally a bit harder).
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Paselas may be easy to fit, but I have witnessed one blow off the rim on a descent, possibly due to brake heating pushing the pressure up.
It wasn't a particulary big descent, and the rider isn't given to excessive braking. The tyre started to lift off a couple of times when trying to get the new tube in too.
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Hmmm. Wish list.
- Relatively easy to get off and on rims (Continentals are an object lesson in how not to do this).
- Puncture proof. Yeah I know.
- Moderate range of widths; say 23 - 32
- Fairly hard wearing1
- Cheap2
- No stupid names
- No fancy colours3
1For me this means a design life of at least 5,000 miles of puncture free riding4.
2For me this means about GBP15 per tyre at LBS prices.
3Although if you were to introduce a range with buff/cream side walls I could be tempted. :)
4*edit* Given ordinary luck and no more than averagely poor road conditions.
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Paselas may be easy to fit, but I have witnessed one blow off the rim on a descent, possibly due to brake heating pushing the pressure up.
And perhaps making the bead more slippery.
It wasn't a particulary big descent, and the rider isn't given to excessive braking. The tyre started to lift off a couple of times when trying to get the new tube in too.
I've had that happen with one Pasela and two Open Corsas, but I put that down to manufacturing defects. Other tyres of the same models have behaved themselves on my wheels.
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Paselas may be easy to fit, but I have witnessed one blow off the rim on a descent, possibly due to brake heating pushing the pressure up.
It wasn't a particulary big descent, and the rider isn't given to excessive braking. The tyre started to lift off a couple of times when trying to get the new tube in too.
I have that problem with OP ceramic rims and Paselas. Blow them up above about 75 psi and they lift off, sooner or later.
The very same tyres are absolutely fine on standard OPs, and on very other rim I've used them with.
It's less of a problem with folding Paselas, but it still happens with ceramic rims if I inflate them to above 85.
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Not very high pressures, are they? Worrying.
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Not very high pressures, are they? Worrying.
well, only if you use 32 mm Paselas with OP ceramic rims, I think. It's a pretty unlikely combination.
I suspect that 25s are absolutely fine. I intend to move to 28s, and see what they're like.
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I had trouble seating 28mm Marathons on OpenPros. got one done but could not be arsed to persevere with the other so fitted a Pasella instead. Snow cancelled the ride anyhoo.
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I'd like to see tyres that are
puncture proof
cheap
have low rolling resistance
lightweight
last for ever
If Michelin can produce these then I'll buy some. You did ask. That is your challenge. I can be more specific if you want. But those are my requirements and I am surprised if other cyclists want to compromise. I don't want to compromise but realise I have to. But my requirements are above.
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I'd like to see tyres that are
puncture proof
cheap
have low rolling resistance
lightweight
last for ever
If Michelin can produce these then I'll buy some. You did ask. That is your challenge. I can be more specific if you want. But those are my requirements and I am surprised if other cyclists want to compromise. I don't want to compromise but realise I have to. But my requirements are above.
who is to say we haven't got the ability to make this tyre but, as I've said before, we would sell you a pair and never see you again and we would be outta business - and me out of a job - before the year was out and I have a lifestyle to maintain so we'll continue to make excellent tyres that actually wear out and need replacing periodically to keep me happy! :D
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I'd like to see tyres that are
puncture proof
cheap
have low rolling resistance
lightweight
last for ever
Pretty much everything in Michelin and Continental's range meet this:
*puncture proof - yup, you can generally ride hundreds of miles without a puncture
*cheap - some tyres cost £40+ => almost all tyres are cheap
*have low rolling resistance - unless you buy solid tyres, all tyres have low rolling resistance
*lightweight - see above
*last for ever - don't be silly
Happy? :P
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Possibly.
I know it is probably asking for the impossible: a tyre with the ride quality of the Pro3 but with an effective protective barrier.
It is possible but as soon as you start putting puncture-protection layers into the construction then you start adding weight and compromising the feel of the tyre. This is one reason why we use a simple and lightweight HDPP layer in the Pro range and use more substantial reinforcing in the Krylion Carbon
It seems to work. Got back from the club run today to discover that my back tyre (pro3 grip) is down to the canvas. The canvas being black I hadn't notived without a detailed inspection through the skog on it. Trying to track down a new pair now, or should I go for race instead? I have a pro Race (original) sitting in the bits box so that may go on in the first instance.
No punctures though, and about 3-4k miles (including my E2E).
..d
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In terms of performance the new Pro Optimum is kinda between the two although only available in 25C at present
** Googles **
Look very interesting. How do they perform in the cold and wet compared to the Grip (there is still snow and ice around up here)?
..d
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who is to say we haven't got the ability to make this tyre but, as I've said before, we would sell you a pair and never see you again and we would be outta business - and me out of a job - before the year was out and I have a lifestyle to maintain so we'll continue to make excellent tyres that actually wear out and need replacing periodically to keep me happy! :D
And there you have the problems with today's society encapsulated. All me and no consideration of the greater good.
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Michelin the Merciless?
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28s and 32s (at lower pressures) get you more grip too
I know we've discussed this before, but why is that? For the same rubber, frictional force:
F = [mu] x Weight
where mu is constant (but higher for grippier rubber)
Lowering the pressure may increase contact patch, but doesn't change the above equation.
There's probably more to this - I remember some discussion about the contact patch being a different shape ... ?
Surely µ, the coefficent of friction, depends on the properties of the two materials in contact (the tyre and the road), and the area that is in contact? So µ=[contact area]*[grippiness of tyre]*[grippiness of road], so the grip/ rolling resistance changes between different width tyres, or when changing the profile of a tyre by inflating it a different amount.
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Got back from the club run today to discover that my back tyre (pro3 grip) is down to the canvas. The canvas being black I hadn't notived without a detailed inspection through the skog on it.
That's one thing that would be handy - a thin layer of different coloured rubber between the tread and the canvas, just to act as a more obvious "buy a new tyre now" indicator.
If it's all the same colour there isn't any easy way of checking remaining tread life without taking the tyre off, and it's a bit of a nuisance if your front tyre goes fluffy half way through a long ride.
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Not very high pressures, are they? Worrying.
well, only if you use 32 mm Paselas with OP ceramic rims, I think. It's a pretty unlikely combination.
I suspect that 25s are absolutely fine. I intend to move to 28s, and see what they're like.
I'm using 28mm Paselas with OpenPro Ceramic, and have never yet had a problem at 100 - 110psi (I'm a little heavier than you, and find I need to be up there with the pressure)
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Got back from the club run today to discover that my back tyre (pro3 grip) is down to the canvas. The canvas being black I hadn't notived without a detailed inspection through the skog on it.
That's one thing that would be handy - a thin layer of different coloured rubber between the tread and the canvas, just to act as a more obvious "buy a new tyre now" indicator.
If it's all the same colour there isn't any easy way of checking remaining tread life without taking the tyre off, and it's a bit of a nuisance if your front tyre goes fluffy half way through a long ride.
Instead of a layer of different colored rubber, a wear indicator like they do on some rims would do just as well. A little scoop taken out of the tread in one or two spots, and when those spots wear smooth the tire is worn out.
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I am using Pro3 on my race bike and Kyrlion on my Audax bike. Both 25mm versions. When the new versions were released they were smaller that the previous versions. I would like to see a tyre the same size as the old 25mm versions. Which I guess would new be a 28mm with the new smaller sizes.
I have not found the new Kyrlion as puncture resistant as the previous version and had to replace the front because the cuts in the tyre were rubbing the tube and causing punctures. Did the casing change when the new tyres were released?
On the whole I find it hard to fault the tyres for what I use them for. All I would say is that I have found Bontrager hard case to be almost puncture proof and has been the only tyre that I wore though to the casing. But did not have the same road feel as Krylion.
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Instead of a layer of different colored rubber, a wear indicator like they do on some rims would do just as well. A little scoop taken out of the tread in one or two spots, and when those spots wear smooth the tire is worn out.
Something that is there is a lot more easily noticed than something that isn't there.
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In terms of performance the new Pro Optimum is kinda between the two although only available in 25C at present
** Googles **
Look very interesting. How do they perform in the cold and wet compared to the Grip (there is still snow and ice around up here)?
..d
They aren't as soft as the Pro3 Grip so probably not as grippy in the cold/wet but more durable
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Got back from the club run today to discover that my back tyre (pro3 grip) is down to the canvas. The canvas being black I hadn't notived without a detailed inspection through the skog on it.
That's one thing that would be handy - a thin layer of different coloured rubber between the tread and the canvas, just to act as a more obvious "buy a new tyre now" indicator.
If it's all the same colour there isn't any easy way of checking remaining tread life without taking the tyre off, and it's a bit of a nuisance if your front tyre goes fluffy half way through a long ride.
Have you never noticed the small Bibendum's around the tyre at regular intervals?
Instead of a layer of different colored rubber, a wear indicator like they do on some rims would do just as well. A little scoop taken out of the tread in one or two spots, and when those spots wear smooth the tire is worn out.
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I am using Pro3 on my race bike and Kyrlion on my Audax bike. Both 25mm versions. When the new versions were released they were smaller that the previous versions. I would like to see a tyre the same size as the old 25mm versions. Which I guess would new be a 28mm with the new smaller sizes.
I have not found the new Kyrlion as puncture resistant as the previous version and had to replace the front because the cuts in the tyre were rubbing the tube and causing punctures. Did the casing change when the new tyres were released?
On the whole I find it hard to fault the tyres for what I use them for. All I would say is that I have found Bontrager hard case to be almost puncture proof and has been the only tyre that I wore though to the casing. But did not have the same road feel as Krylion.
As far as I am aware, the casing construction of the Krylion Carbon has remained the same following its reintroduction
I like your point on the Bontrager - increasing punctures resistance and the durability of the tyre often compromises the "feel". Why do you thin k that solid tyres have ever really taken off? LOL
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Not very high pressures, are they? Worrying.
well, only if you use 32 mm Paselas with OP ceramic rims, I think. It's a pretty unlikely combination.
I suspect that 25s are absolutely fine. I intend to move to 28s, and see what they're like.
I'm using 28mm Paselas with OpenPro Ceramic, and have never yet had a problem at 100 - 110psi (I'm a little heavier than you, and find I need to be up there with the pressure)
That's reassuring - thanks
To be fair to the Paselas, 32 is a bit beyond what gives a sensible tyre profile with OPs anyway.
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Isn't it about time you introduced tubeless tyres with superior ride and puncture resistance instead of just producing yet another silly named tyre with fancy colours which don't actually provide any real advantage to us "little guys" who buy and use your products The HD comp was probably the best bike tyre made at that time by far but you seem to have lost your way since then. The Pro 3 is great for grip but I am down to the ( rear) casing in 3000kms and is that grip level really needed all year round a bit more rubber would be nice.
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What's the benefit of tubeless (never used them myself so I'm in complete ignorance) ?
Is it just as easy to fix a puncture as just throwing in a new tube is with ordinary tyres ?
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Isn't it about time you
Seems a bit harsh, inc. Count how many representatives from tyre firms we get on here. Lets see . . . . um, one.
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Isn't it about time you introduced tubeless tyres with superior ride and puncture resistance instead of just producing yet another silly named tyre with fancy colours which don't actually provide any real advantage to us "little guys" who buy and use your products The HD comp was probably the best bike tyre made at that time by far but you seem to have lost your way since then. The Pro 3 is great for grip but I am down to the ( rear) casing in 3000kms and is that grip level really needed all year round a bit more rubber would be nice.
I wondered when the tubeless argument would rear its head! LOL
The bottom line is that there are advantages in tubeless but these are not as prominent as they are in the world of MTB where we do have a vast tubeless offer. This comes down to finances again and, at this time at least, we don't think that the investment in this area would ensure great rewards....why is it that only really Hutchinson have an offer currently? I think it'll help that a lot of rim manufacturers are now offering dual-marked "tubeless/tube-type" rims...although I am sure that this has been done to reduce their portfolio and costs rather than anything else!
I think you are referring to the old Supercomp HD...which used a High Density layer in it which you might be surprised to hear is very similar to that in the Pro3 Race!
Again we come back to the problem of trying to make a tyre thats all things to all men; you want a tyre that grips like a Pro3 but lasts longer - but that would mean changing the rubber compounds, construction and design and you would end up with a more durable tyre but would almost certainly compromise the grip and feel of the tyre and would ceratinly increase the weight. As I have said before, when we design products we have certain criteria that are most important - in the case of the Pro3 Race it was to reduce the weight and improve the wet weather grip over its predecessor whilst maintaining everything else. This tyre is deigned as almost a competition spec product where perfoemance/weight/rolling resistance are everything and durability and longevity are secondery. Maybe looking down our range - Krylion Carbon or Lithion2 - would prove fruitful?
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who is to say we haven't got the ability to make this tyre but, as I've said before, we would sell you a pair and never see you again and we would be outta business - and me out of a job - before the year was out and I have a lifestyle to maintain so we'll continue to make excellent tyres that actually wear out and need replacing periodically to keep me happy! :D
And there you have the problems with today's society encapsulated. All me and no consideration of the greater good.
You are of course correct and I am currently hanging my head in shame. An ever-lasting tyre would keep every consumer happy and make a massive differnce to the enviroment and economy too....I'm writing a letter to our central management team as we speak....whilst smashing my head against the desk at the same time! :s
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Isn't it about time you
Seems a bit harsh, inc. Count how many representatives from tyre firms we get on here. Lets see . . . . um, one.
Are you saying that I'm unique? LMAO
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who is to say we haven't got the ability to make this tyre but, as I've said before, we would sell you a pair and never see you again and we would be outta business - and me out of a job - before the year was out and I have a lifestyle to maintain so we'll continue to make excellent tyres that actually wear out and need replacing periodically to keep me happy! :D
And there you have the problems with today's society encapsulated. All me and no consideration of the greater good.
You are of course correct and I am currently hanging my head in shame. An ever-lasting tyre would keep every consumer happy and make a massive differnce to the enviroment and economy too....I'm writing a letter to our central management team as we speak....whilst smashing my head against the desk at the same time! :s
It's the old 'Mutually Assured Destruction' problem. You could release the tyre and go out of business, or one of your competitors could and you'd still go out of business but without the extra cash of selling that new magic tyre to everyone yourself.
Step away from the big red button.
The Man In The White Suit (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044876/) is a 1951 film about a very similar problem.
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who is to say we haven't got the ability to make this tyre but, as I've said before, we would sell you a pair and never see you again and we would be outta business - and me out of a job - before the year was out and I have a lifestyle to maintain so we'll continue to make excellent tyres that actually wear out and need replacing periodically to keep me happy! :D
And there you have the problems with today's society encapsulated. All me and no consideration of the greater good.
You are of course correct and I am currently hanging my head in shame. An ever-lasting tyre would keep every consumer happy and make a massive differnce to the enviroment and economy too....I'm writing a letter to our central management team as we speak....whilst smashing my head against the desk at the same time! :s
It's the old 'Mutually Assured Destruction' problem. You could release the tyre and go out of business, or one of your competitors could and you'd still go out of business but without the extra cash of selling that new magic tyre to everyone yourself.
Step away from the big red button.
The Man In The White Suit (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044876/) is a 1951 film about a very similar problem.
Ah, but you are forgetting that there are global tyre manufacturers forums (bit like this only in a underground bunker away from prying eyes) where I am sure they discuss this kinda thing and have a gentleman's agreement that nobody will launch the every-lasting tyre! :D...probably
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I agree with having some more competition for the Pasela as well. Sidewalls should be stronger, but only slightly because I don't want much less flexibility (increased rolling resistance). The sidewalls should be black, too!
I was with you all the way until you wanted black sidewalls. Every other damn tyre on the market is black or kiddy kolours, some of us want proper-looking tyres.
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I agree with having some more competition for the Pasela as well. Sidewalls should be stronger, but only slightly because I don't want much less flexibility (increased rolling resistance). The sidewalls should be black, too!
I was with you all the way until you wanted black sidewalls. Every other damn tyre on the market is black or kiddy kolours, some of us want proper-looking tyres.
I think you'll be pleased to hear that alot of the new stuff already in the pipeline for 2011+ is with retro brown sidewalls! :D
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Free ones, coming by courier, direct from the manufacturer. They'd get a warm welcome.
Damon.
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Got back from the club run today to discover that my back tyre (pro3 grip) is down to the canvas. The canvas being black I hadn't notived without a detailed inspection through the skog on it.
That's one thing that would be handy - a thin layer of different coloured rubber between the tread and the canvas, just to act as a more obvious "buy a new tyre now" indicator.
If it's all the same colour there isn't any easy way of checking remaining tread life without taking the tyre off, and it's a bit of a nuisance if your front tyre goes fluffy half way through a long ride.
Have you never noticed the small Bibendum's around the tyre at regular intervals?
Can't say I have - on a pro3 grip?
If they are on the side then they are no use - it is on teh crown where they have worn through.
I have an old pro race to swap in for now.
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I was with you all the way until you wanted black sidewalls. Every other damn tyre on the market is black or kiddy kolours, some of us want proper-looking tyres.
"Proper-looking" tyres become crappy-looking after they've been used a bit and the sidewalls are stained with dirt and rim sludge. It doesn't clean off without chemicals and I don't want to have to keep cleaning it anyway . This stuff doesn't show up on black, so your tyres (and therefore whole bike) looks cleaner.
I won't be buying tyres without black sidewalls unless there's no good alternative.
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What's the benefit of tubeless (never used them myself so I'm in complete ignorance) ?
No pinch-flats, so you can use low pressure. An advantage for MTBing.
Is it just as easy to fix a puncture as just throwing in a new tube is with ordinary tyres ?
I think you can fit an ordinary tube if sealant doesn't work or whatever.
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Free ones, coming by courier, direct from the manufacturer. They'd get a warm welcome.
Damon.
People would moan about the courier not using the bell, depot too far away, won't redeliver at specific times ...
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Free ones, coming by courier, direct from the manufacturer. They'd get a warm welcome.
Damon.
People would moan about the courier not using the bell, depot too far away, won't redeliver at specific times ...
So don't use Sh!ttyL!nk.
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I won't be buying tyres without black sidewalls unless there's no good alternative.
Good for you, I'll stick with my choice.
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What's the benefit of tubeless (never used them myself so I'm in complete ignorance) ?
Is it just as easy to fix a puncture as just throwing in a new tube is with ordinary tyres ?
Better ride and with a light sealant like Stan's you get instant puncture repair, have a look here, there are road tyres at the end of the video. NoTubes.com - Movies (http://www.notubes.com/support_movies.php). You can just fit a tube if needed. Michelin developed the technology with Mavic but choose not to release a model onto the market. Hutchison have a road version but the tyres are not so good. I have been using converted ordinary mtb tyres and rims off road for over two years without a puncture. Before the conversion I had two punctures a ride sometimes with the dog thorns in the grass. Because of the much higher pressures in road tyres retaining the tyres on the rims is the challenge but Campag, shimano, Mavic and others now have tubeless rims but Michelin say there is no demand.
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What's the benefit of tubeless (never used them myself so I'm in complete ignorance) ?
Is it just as easy to fix a puncture as just throwing in a new tube is with ordinary tyres ?
Better ride and with a light sealant like Stan's you get instant puncture repair, have a look here, there are road tyres at the end of the video. NoTubes.com - Movies (http://www.notubes.com/support_movies.php). You can just fit a tube if needed. Michelin developed the technology with Mavic but choose not to release a model onto the market. Hutchison have a road version but the tyres are not so good. I have been using converted ordinary mtb tyres and rims off road for over two years without a puncture. Before the conversion I had two punctures a ride sometimes with the dog thorns in the grass. Because of the much higher pressures in road tyres retaining the tyres on the rims is the challenge but Campag, shimano, Mavic and others now have tubeless rims but Michelin say there is no demand.
Thats actually accurate - we were the first manufacturer to develop a tubeless road tyre in conjunction with Mavic - but chose not to commercialise it at the time and then Hutchinson stole our thunder and got the first tyre out into the market...although you are right in saying that they are not a good tyre and do not really sell even in France where their brand is strongest.
I think the reason we have not been interested until now is the cost of switching to tubless rims but now the manufacturers appear to dual-mark their rims maybe it will be more accessible for riders and demand will increase! :D
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In terms of performance the new Pro Optimum is kinda between the two although only available in 25C at present
** Googles **
Look very interesting. How do they perform in the cold and wet compared to the Grip (there is still snow and ice around up here)?
..d
They aren't as soft as the Pro3 Grip so probably not as grippy in the cold/wet but more durable
I may well be tempted to give them a whirl. The Grip were/are fantastic tyres to ride but my wallet is kind of complaining at the durability. Not sure whether that is the effect of road riding or the intermittent use on the rollers (not a turbo).
£70 for a pair of optimum seems quite pricey - at the top end of my limit (I'd normally be paying 25-30 per tyre for Pro3). However, if they last >20% longer with reasonably good grip (a concept which the Pro series redefined) then they will be worth it
..d
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In terms of performance the new Pro Optimum is kinda between the two although only available in 25C at present
** Googles **
Look very interesting. How do they perform in the cold and wet compared to the Grip (there is still snow and ice around up here)?
..d
They aren't as soft as the Pro3 Grip so probably not as grippy in the cold/wet but more durable
I may well be tempted to give them a whirl. The Grip were/are fantastic tyres to ride but my wallet is kind of complaining at the durability. Not sure whether that is the effect of road riding or the intermittent use on the rollers (not a turbo).
£70 for a pair of optimum seems quite pricey - at the top end of my limit (I'd normally be paying 25-30 per tyre for Pro3). However, if they last >20% longer with reasonably good grip (a concept which the Pro series redefined) then they will be worth it
..d
I'll be 100% straight with you here - I don't have an awful lot of performance feedback on them as yet - would hate for you to "blow your wad" on these and not have them live up to expectations. They were designed in conjunction with Giant as a spotive tyre to sit between the Pro and Krylion ranges but have not ridden them myself as yet to fully ascertain how the differing compounds front/rear work in harmony.
I have said it before and I'll say it again.....for me, the best tyre we make is the Krylion Carbon; I struggle to get to the limit of the grip and the durability and puncture resilience is excellent given the weight and rolling resistance.
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I have said it before and I'll say it again.....for me, the best tyre we make is the Krylion Carbon; I struggle to get to the limit of the grip and the durability and puncture resilience is excellent given the weight and rolling resistance.
OK, I'll look at those. The press blurb on the optimum makes it look like the front is just a slightly wider (25 v 23) Pro3 Grip, the rear is more durable. I'll pick up a Kyrillion and see what it is like.
..d
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OK, I'll look at those. The press blurb on the optimum makes it look like the front is just a slightly wider (25 v 23) Pro3 Grip, the rear is more durable. I'll pick up a Kyrillion and see what it is like.
The internal communication I have is very similar - front is akin to a Grip and the rear is more durable but unsure (and this is me being brutally honest here...totally removed my corporate cap for once!) how much of it is a marketing gimic and so the tyres work out as a pair and how much is a genuine technological advancement of a pair designed as separate front/rear fitments for each to fully meet the demands of the position of fitment!
You wont go far wrong with the Krylion Carbons - plenty been written on here about them in the past - and they are substantially cheaper too! :D
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What's the benefit of tubeless (never used them myself so I'm in complete ignorance) ?
No pinch-flats, so you can use low pressure. An advantage for MTBing.
Is it just as easy to fix a puncture as just throwing in a new tube is with ordinary tyres ?
I think you can fit an ordinary tube if sealant doesn't work or whatever.
If you don't fit a new tube, you've got the interesting problem of trying to get a seal with a mini-pump. You can use CO2 - one cartridge to get the tyre seated, and one to get the pressure, or CO2 to seat and a pump to top up.
If you do fit a tube, why not use an ordinary tyre?
You can use a sealant in those if you want.
So you end up with more complicated puncture repair, in return for which you can run at low pressures that would otherwise put you at risk of pinch flats. Nobody uses pressures that low on the road (deliberately), so tubeless have no advantages.
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Plus what do you do about tyre cuts?
Most of my tyres end up with dozens of tiny cuts, many of which just make it through the tyre (but not the tube). With tubeless, these would leak. Maybe the slime would seal the cut, but I'd still have to stop and top up the pressure etc.
Nope, don't see any need for tubeless on the road.
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Plus what do you do about tyre cuts?
Most of my tyres end up with dozens of tiny cuts, many of which just make it through the tyre (but not the tube). With tubeless, these would leak. Maybe the slime would seal the cut, but I'd still have to stop and top up the pressure etc.
Nope, don't see any need for tubeless on the road.
The one thing I should point out too about tubeless is that if you get a hole then the sealant is designed to fill it which it does effectively in most cases....butit also means the internal construction of the tyre is exposed to whatever chemicals etc are in the sealant and we have not fully tested what effect this may have. On products where we do make tubeless options - and I'm not just talking cycle tyres here but also car, truck, motorcycle etc - a sealant is seen almost as a temporary solution and a proper mushroom repair should be undertaken at the earliest opportunity!
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Most of my tyres end up with dozens of tiny cuts, many of which just make it through the tyre (but not the tube). With tubeless, these would leak. Maybe the slime would seal the cut, but I'd still have to stop and top up the pressure etc.
Nope, don't see any need for tubeless on the road.
Have you looked at the video link I posted, it is well worth a look. In my experience most punctures are with horns or small bits of flint, Stan's will seal both these without you even noticing or pressure loss. I have arrived back from a couple of hours off road and then noticed a few tiny white specks where the sealant has worked. The fluid is like milk in colour and viscosity it is nothing like slime and there is only 20ml per tyre. It is not publicised but Mavic use it while testing their road tubeless setup and just about every MBT team use it.
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In my experience most punctures are with horns
Gnarly !
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.....
You wont go far wrong with the Krylion Carbons - plenty been written on here about them in the past - and they are substantially cheaper too! :D
Yup, best compromise tyre around IMO. They also work really well as a turbo tyre after they have been worn out on the road :thumbsup:
Can't see the point of tubeless myself for non-pro road use. It's hard enough fixing a p*ncture in a normal tubed tyre when I'm soaked and freezing cold cycling in the back of beyond, but going to something that has to have a proper seal between tyre and rim to inflate - I dont think so :hand:
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Can't see the point of tubeless myself for non-pro road use. It's hard enough fixing a p*ncture in a normal tubed tyre when I'm soaked and freezing cold cycling in the back of beyond, but going to something that has to have a proper seal between tyre and rim to inflate - I dont think so :hand:
Do you really mean tubeless or are you talking about tubs?
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Can't see the point of tubeless myself for non-pro road use. It's hard enough fixing a p*ncture in a normal tubed tyre when I'm soaked and freezing cold cycling in the back of beyond, but going to something that has to have a proper seal between tyre and rim to inflate - I dont think so :hand:
Do you really mean tubeless or are you talking about tubs?
yes, tubeless. tubs are something else entirely....
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I am using Pro3 on my race bike and Kyrlion on my Audax bike. Both 25mm versions. When the new versions were released they were smaller that the previous versions. I would like to see a tyre the same size as the old 25mm versions. Which I guess would new be a 28mm with the new smaller sizes.
I have not found the new Kyrlion as puncture resistant as the previous version and had to replace the front because the cuts in the tyre were rubbing the tube and causing punctures. Did the casing change when the new tyres were released?
On the whole I find it hard to fault the tyres for what I use them for. All I would say is that I have found Bontrager hard case to be almost puncture proof and has been the only tyre that I wore though to the casing. But did not have the same road feel as Krylion.
As far as I am aware, the casing construction of the Krylion Carbon has remained the same following its reintroduction
I like your point on the Bontrager - increasing punctures resistance and the durability of the tyre often compromises the "feel". Why do you thin k that solid tyres have ever really taken off? LOL
I read the comments here abot Krylion Carbons and wonder if I'm riding the same tyres? You don't need solid tyres, my 25c Carbons feel like old rubber pram wheels. I've tried higher and lower ends of the pressure spectrum too. Find them just unfeeling, hard and slippy in the wet. Me no likey.
PR2's and PR3's on the other hand are tyres fit for the Gods and will soon be returning after a winter hibernation.
The Krylions might are likely to be binned for next winter in favour of something different.
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I read the comments here abot Krylion Carbons and wonder if I'm riding the same tyres? You don't need solid tyres, my 25c Carbons feel like old rubber pram wheels. I've tried higher and lower ends of the pressure spectrum too. Find them just unfeeling, hard and slippy in the wet.
Hmm. I'm about to fit a pair tomorrow. That's not too promising...
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Can't see the point of tubeless myself for non-pro road use. It's hard enough fixing a p*ncture in a normal tubed tyre when I'm soaked and freezing cold cycling in the back of beyond, but going to something that has to have a proper seal between tyre and rim to inflate - I dont think so :hand:
You can fit a tube if having trouble in the back of beyond after a puncture. But most of the time you'd be riding without a tube in the tyre, which supposedly gives a better ride.
Personally, though, I don't believe the tiny bit of flexible ultra-light inner tube material spoils my ride to a degree worth bothering about.
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I read the comments here abot Krylion Carbons and wonder if I'm riding the same tyres? You don't need solid tyres, my 25c Carbons feel like old rubber pram wheels. I've tried higher and lower ends of the pressure spectrum too. Find them just unfeeling, hard and slippy in the wet.
Hmm. I'm about to fit a pair tomorrow. That's not too promising...
? I fitted one to the front on the weekend. First ride this morning.
Can't say I found it unfeeling. Definitely not slippery. I'd say the grip was very good. It was a 25mm, replacing a 28mm GP4seasons.
What pressures are you using, FF?
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Don't describe grip as 'good' or even 'fair' until you have ridden the Pro3 Grip. That redefines the scale.
It will be interesting to see how I get on with the Carbon - I find Bontrager X-lite to be a bit squirrelly on greasy winter roads but the Grip are rock solid.
..d
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Am i the only person who wears out most tyres they own without ever reaching the limit of adhesion?
[And when I do it's usually only when climbing a 1:7 on wet leaves]
I'm simply not in a position to judge a tyre's "grip" - I just know they must vary!
[EDIT: my only falls have been on ice! Not a fair test of rubber, I think.
EDIT2: locked up the rear in the wet quite often, but I think that's easy even with grippy tyres]
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I have exceeded the limit of adhesion on wet or dirty tarmac, otherwise I too am not in a position to judge a tyre's grip. That's doesn't stop me asking KidJambo to give us as much grip as reasonably possible. One becomes paranoid after one has broken one's hip!
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It isn't the feeling of sliding. There is a certain sensation in the wet where you feel 'uh oh' and want to back off as you get this really uncertain vibe.
..d
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I've spun a rear wheel moving off from traffic lights. Wet bricks.
What about braking? Must be pretty common to hit the limit when braking on wet roads.
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I can lock the back wheel through leg-braking on a gravelly dry road, and I can spin a (skinny) tyre on a damp hill climb. Except for ice and wet metalwork, though, I've never had a problem with the front.
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Am i the only person who wears out most tyres they own without ever reaching the limit of adhesion?
[And when I do it's usually only when climbing a 1:7 on wet leaves]
I'm simply not in a position to judge a tyre's "grip" - I just know they must vary!
[EDIT: my only falls have been on ice! Not a fair test of rubber, I think.]
I'm with you on this, Matt. The only times I've felt the wheels of my road bike to slide have been on slippy surfaces, such as leaves, ice and manhole covers. I also find it difficult to tell the difference between the feel of one tyre over another, or I just don't pay enough attention to this these things.
It isn't the feeling of sliding. There is a certain sensation in the wet where you feel 'uh oh' and want to back off as you get this really uncertain vibe.
..d
You just need bigger cajones ;). Yes, I do back off when the roads are wet but I've no idea whether I back off a lower speed when using a tyre that's said to be less grippy.
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Am i the only person who wears out most tyres they own without ever reaching the limit of adhesion?
I would think that would apply to most cyclist if you mean falling because of a lack of grip. The Pro 3 does seem to have more grip to me. I live at the top of a IKm climb the average gradient is 10% but there is a section at 22% The hill is on a North facing slope ( no Sun a lot of the year) it is a sunken single track lane and wet a lot of the year it is almost imposable not to get some wheelspin on the steepest section with any tyre I have used except the Pro3 but the rear only last 3000km. I can't say I have noticed any difference in grip anywhere else.
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It isn't the feeling of sliding. There is a certain sensation in the wet where you feel 'uh oh' and want to back off as you get this really uncertain vibe.
..d
I know what you mean.
I read the comments here abot Krylion Carbons and wonder if I'm riding the same tyres? You don't need solid tyres, my 25c Carbons feel like old rubber pram wheels. I've tried higher and lower ends of the pressure spectrum too. Find them just unfeeling, hard and slippy in the wet.
Hmm. I'm about to fit a pair tomorrow. That's not too promising...
I'll put them on later - they certainly have a much heavier sidewall than my other recent tyres which fits with your comments. Tomorrow will reveal all...
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I read the comments here abot Krylion Carbons and wonder if I'm riding the same tyres? You don't need solid tyres, my 25c Carbons feel like old rubber pram wheels. I've tried higher and lower ends of the pressure spectrum too. Find them just unfeeling, hard and slippy in the wet.
Hmm. I'm about to fit a pair tomorrow. That's not too promising...
? I fitted one to the front on the weekend. First ride this morning.
Can't say I found it unfeeling. Definitely not slippery. I'd say the grip was very good. It was a 25mm, replacing a 28mm GP4seasons.
What pressures are you using, FF?
95F/100Rear on Sunday, previously 90F/95R. I weigh 90kg and tend to ride over the back wheel. Talking of wheels, they're CXP22s on Ultegra hubs.
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Can't say I found it unfeeling. Definitely not slippery. I'd say the grip was very good. It was a 25mm, replacing a 28mm GP4seasons
First short ride on Krylions this moring - initial impressions are that they are a smoother, slightly faster ride than GP4S. Better vibration absorption. I quite like them so far :)
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I have slid both wheels sideways taking a corner too fast on Exmoor in the dry
I ended up on the wrong side of the road but there was nothing coming
That was with Panaracer Pasellas
Strangely, since I broke my collar bone I haven't done anything like this again ;D
I haven't tried Pro Race 3 Grip but the cornering traction on normal Pro Race 2 and 3 is really good.
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This is a rather worn Pro3 Grip.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4021/4422582393_14facf310a.jpg)
as is this
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2763/4423347700_81a7e255e6.jpg)
I'll see how the Kyrillion Carbon goes tomorrow.
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I'm amazed you were able to ride that without constant visits.
The Krylion - I'm certainly happy with how they ride in the dry. They are not as lively as the Pro3 of course but still pretty good. A Krylion on the back and a Pro3 or Pro3 Grip on the front would work well methinks.
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So am I. Typically visits tend to be broken glass in town. We are on granite/sandstone (mostly sandstone) so there are few flints to worry about.
Bit sheepish that I hadn't noticed under the usual layer of skog.
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Can't see the point of tubeless myself for non-pro road use. It's hard enough fixing a p*ncture in a normal tubed tyre when I'm soaked and freezing cold cycling in the back of beyond, but going to something that has to have a proper seal between tyre and rim to inflate - I dont think so :hand:
Do you really mean tubeless or are you talking about tubs?
yes, tubeless. tubs are something else entirely....
Is everyone aware that Michelin are going back into the tub market later this year?
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What advantage does tubeless have over tubs?
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Can't see the point of tubeless myself for non-pro road use. It's hard enough fixing a p*ncture in a normal tubed tyre when I'm soaked and freezing cold cycling in the back of beyond, but going to something that has to have a proper seal between tyre and rim to inflate - I dont think so :hand:
Do you really mean tubeless or are you talking about tubs?
yes, tubeless. tubs are something else entirely....
Is everyone aware that Michelin are going back into the tub market later this year?
No. I need a couple of fast tubs at a reasonable price.
Links?
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Interesting. Why is that, KJ? Is the market growing again?
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Can't see the point of tubeless myself for non-pro road use. It's hard enough fixing a p*ncture in a normal tubed tyre when I'm soaked and freezing cold cycling in the back of beyond, but going to something that has to have a proper seal between tyre and rim to inflate - I dont think so :hand:
Do you really mean tubeless or are you talking about tubs?
yes, tubeless. tubs are something else entirely....
Is everyone aware that Michelin are going back into the tub market later this year?
No. I need a couple of fast tubs at a reasonable price.
Links?
No price set yet but think mid-range so probably akin to the Pro3 clincher - should be available from about June (fingers crossed)
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Interesting. Why is that, KJ? Is the market growing again?
We stopped making tubs as the factory was old and needed massive modernisation and, at the time, we were working on tubeless which we kinda viewed as a possible replacement for tubs. As you know, this was shelved (and Hutchinson picked up the baton and ran with it instead) and we have operated with only clinchers for many years. It was also felt that it was only more mature riders who used tubs as, when they started riding the performance benefits of a tub over a lincher were more apparent than today where the gap has closed and new riders to the sport would be more likely to just use tyres....we were wrong! Obviously we sponsor a number of ProTour teams (AG2R, Bouygues Telecom, Shimano to name but a few) and eventhough they are contracted to use tyres for a certain percentage of rides there are some events that demand tubulars so we have been making them for competition use for a number of years. The reintroduction of tubulars is to supplement our range (some people think that we cannot be a serious lightweight tyre manufacturer if we don't offer tubs like Conti and Vittoria) and also to enable us to communicate on our competitions successes - something we haven't been able to do until not because all of the wins have been on tubs!
Hope that answers the question! :D
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Can't see the point of tubeless myself for non-pro road use. It's hard enough fixing a p*ncture in a normal tubed tyre when I'm soaked and freezing cold cycling in the back of beyond, but going to something that has to have a proper seal between tyre and rim to inflate - I dont think so :hand:
Do you really mean tubeless or are you talking about tubs?
yes, tubeless. tubs are something else entirely....
Is everyone aware that Michelin are going back into the tub market later this year?
No. I need a couple of fast tubs at a reasonable price.
Links?
No price set yet but think mid-range so probably akin to the Pro3 clincher - should be available from about June (fingers crossed)
What about these? www.cyclingnews.com presents the 94th Tour de France (http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/tech/index.php?id=/photos/2007/tech/features/tour_tech_607/Bouygues_Telecom_mystery_tubular)
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Having experienced the vast improvement that radial tyres gave on cars, trucks, and motorcycles, can we have them for bicycles please?
It must be possible, or they wouldn't work on motorcycles.
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Am running Conti 4 Seasons on the front and a Halfords cheapy tyre on the rear after the 7 month old Conti (on the back) exploded with a 3" tear in the sidewall just above the bead.
The Halfords cheapo was only supposed to be temporary but as it has suffered 0 deflations, unlike it's more expensive, cut-to-buggery 'puncture resistant' partner on the front, I have kept it on despite it being Not That Good on the handling and comfort stakes.
Looking at the differences in rubber, the Halfords tyre seems to pick up less flint whereas the Conti seems to positvely suck it up which is where I think the problem lies with flinty incursions.
So I would like to see a rubber compound that is more flint repellant yet with the handling and feel of the Panaracer Stradius Elite TG.
H
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Having experienced the vast improvement that radial tyres gave on cars, trucks, and motorcycles, can we have them for bicycles please?
It must be possible, or they wouldn't work on motorcycles.
I can assure you that its something thats been looked at already many times!
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Is everyone aware that Michelin are going back into the tub market later this year?
Is this really due to buying customers demand, or to increase Michelin's profile in the pro sphere. I like their tyres and have used them continuously for over 30 years. I still have some sprint wheels but would never go back to tubs. The hours spent unstitching repairing and sewing them then sticking them on the rim only to puncture on the next ride. Fine for pros with a team car and mechanics. Tubeless with sealant is the future, same ride quality as a good tub and real puncture resistance.
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Having experienced the vast improvement that radial tyres gave on cars, trucks, and motorcycles, can we have them for bicycles please?
It must be possible, or they wouldn't work on motorcycles.
I can assure you that its something thats been looked at already many times!
Surely quite a few tyres are pretty much radials now?
If you look at the much-loved Paselas, you'll see that the threads are not woven, but parallel. They aren't radial, as some angle is needed to prevent 'wind-up' in the threads; bike tyres aren't as solid as car tyres.
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Is everyone aware that Michelin are going back into the tub market later this year?
Is this really due to buying customers demand, or to increase Michelin's profile in the pro sphere. I like their tyres and have used them continuously for over 30 years. I still have some sprint wheels but would never go back to tubs. The hours spent unstitching repairing and sewing them then sticking them on the rim only to puncture on the next ride. Fine for pros with a team car and mechanics. Tubeless with sealant is the future, same ride quality as a good tub and real puncture resistance.
I don't use my tubs at the moment, because I don't race (probably won't ever, but the dream still glows somewhere).
If I did race again, it would still be on tubs, and good ones at that - every little bit of help would be needed!
For most racing that I would do I'd get a free lap out, or there might be service, so a puncture isn't a problem. In a time trial, if you puncture your chances of a place or time have gone anyway. I never raced on repaired tubs, and it's generally frowned on for road races or the track because of the risk to others.
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KidJambo, what is the score with Krylion Carbon in 25? These seem to be somewhat hard to find. Is supply likely to resume at some point later in the year?
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KidJambo, what is the score with Krylion Carbon in 25? These seem to be somewhat hard to find. Is supply likely to resume at some point later in the year?
There have been a few shortages earlier this year but we have stocks so our wholesale distribution partners (and thus the retailers) should by now - where are you loking??
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Chain reaction?
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=20460 (http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=20460)
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A little birdie tells me they have new stock arriving tomorrow! :D
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Good. Just in time then, I need a new rear tyre.
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I presume if you put in an order now, at the rather good advertised price, they have to honour it when stock arrives?
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I presume if you put in an order now, at the rather good advertised price, they have to honour it when stock arrives?
Thats between you and them but I expect they would....think they bought the new stock at a rather good price anyway! LOL
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Sorry jambo, too late! I have ordered up some vittorias instead. Despite being a great Michelin fan
Chainreaction are still showing as out of stock
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A little birdie tells me they have new stock arriving tomorrow! :D
It didn't happen, for some reason...
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I presume if you put in an order now, at the rather good advertised price, they have to honour it when stock arrives?
Thats between you and them but I expect they would....think they bought the new stock at a rather good price anyway! LOL
I still can't find Krylions in 25 anywhere. Chainreaction say none available in that size until September :(
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I've got a barely used one I'll swap for a 23... 25 is a shade too big for the summer bike.
..d
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So do you make tyres for bicycles then? The reason I ask is that there's nothing about them on your UK web site :)
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So do you make tyres for bicycles then? The reason I ask is that there's nothing about them on your UK web site :)
Bike tyres, Bike tyre range, mtb tyres- Michelin (http://bicycle.michelin.co.uk) ?
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I've got a barely used one I'll swap for a 23... 25 is a shade too big for the summer bike.
..d
If I ever manage to lay my hands on another Krylion 25, I'm going to preserve it in a sealed case.
At this rate, they'll be collector's items soon.
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I've got a barely used one I'll swap for a 23... 25 is a shade too big for the summer bike.
..d
If I ever manage to lay my hands on another Krylion 25, I'm going to preserve it in a sealed case.
At this rate, they'll be collector's items soon.
I've got one. I don't want it as it is too big.
..d
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I've got a couple of bikes dating from the 1890's that should run 30" wheels with pneumatics. If you could see your way to doing me a dozen of those that would be great!
And, it's very difficult to get red solid tyring for Pennies and other solid machines, so a roll of that would be good, too.
Ta. ;)
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So do you make tyres for bicycles then? The reason I ask is that there's nothing about them on your UK web site :)
try www.michelin.co.uk/bicycle - should direct you in! :D
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I presume if you put in an order now, at the rather good advertised price, they have to honour it when stock arrives?
Thats between you and them but I expect they would....think they bought the new stock at a rather good price anyway! LOL
I still can't find Krylions in 25 anywhere. Chainreaction say none available in that size until September :(
I'll check that information and get back to you....know they are short but not THAT short!
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It's what their websites says.
I've had a stock-order alert against 25mm krylions for months.
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Those of us who ride recumbents (a steadily growing number) would appreciate having more choices of (road-going) tyres in the ETRTO 451, 507 and 520 sizes.
We are fairly well provided for in the 406 and 559 sizes, but competition for our custom is always welcome :)
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It's what their websites says.
I've had a stock-order alert against 25mm krylions for months.
Technically the information they put on their site is from us but that seems incorrect
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So do you make tyres for bicycles then? The reason I ask is that there's nothing about them on your UK web site :)
try www.michelin.co.uk/bicycle - should direct you in! :D
Object not found! :(
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So do you make tyres for bicycles then? The reason I ask is that there's nothing about them on your UK web site :)
try www.michelin.co.uk/bicycle - should direct you in! :D
bicycle.michelin.co.uk as I posted above does work. And is easily found from www.michelin.co.uk
..d
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Yes, from http://www.michelin.co.uk, just click "Change Site".
It is a bit of a shame that cycle tyres are not promoted more boldly - but Michelin do make a lot of different sorts of tyres!, including aircraft ones 8)
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Yes, from http://www.michelin.co.uk, just click "Change Site".
It is a bit of a shame that cycle tyres are not promoted more boldly - but Michelin do make a lot of different sorts of tyres!, including aircraft ones 8)
Just sent my webmaster a maila sking why that link I posted doesn't work as its on all out advert so should! :s
Yeah - a "tyre for everything with a wheel" is our motto...and cycle comes at the bottom of the list! :s
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Yes, from http://www.michelin.co.uk, just click "Change Site".
It is a bit of a shame that cycle tyres are not promoted more boldly - but Michelin do make a lot of different sorts of tyres!, including aircraft ones 8)
Just sent my webmaster a maila sking why that link I posted doesn't work as its on all out advert so should! :s
Yeah - a "tyre for everything with a wheel" is our motto...and cycle comes at the bottom of the list! :s
Mmm.
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OK, Shifty's wish list:
28-406 or 32-406 slick with sipes, and a puncture-resistance feature. The diablo city tyres only go down to 44-406!
28-559 or 32-559 to match it - the city tyres only go to 35-559, which is the same as the Vredesteins I've been running for the last few years.
Vredestein used to do the S-licks, which I used, but always felt was a little too much. They don't seem to do anything to fit Speedy any more. Their site is also terrible, and demands you find tyres by 'usage' not 'size' using their selector system, rather than simply showing a list of what tyre they make in what size. Bah. By the same token, Continental now only seem to do the Sport contact in 28-406/32-559. Schwalbe Marathons are like the Vredesteins - I don't really want balloon BMX/MTB tyres on a road machine, but don't want race tyres either. I do want some puncture-resistance.
There seems to be a dearth of good 'intermediate' size road/slick tyres for people who don't ride 622/700C. At this rate it'll be a toss-up between the Sport Contacts in mixed size, or a set of Schwalbe Duranos.
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Shifty, what you want is a 28-406 Krylion carbon
They are really nice, believe me. sipes aren't needed on that width.
sport contacts wear out far too fast.
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To add to the request above:
A wider range of tyres in the ISO 451 mm size - not just for the recumbent market but also for a wide range of utility bikes such as the Raleigh Twenty.
In 451 mm choices are effectively limited to Schwalbe Durano or the Schwalbe HS110 'budget range' tyre.
I'd like to see more good quality 451 mm tyres (slick, semi slick and perhaps with a slightly wider profile than the Schwalbe Durano
Apparently there is the Primo Comet but these don't seem to be available in 451 mm in the UK.
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I presume if you put in an order now, at the rather good advertised price, they have to honour it when stock arrives?
Thats between you and them but I expect they would....think they bought the new stock at a rather good price anyway! LOL
I still can't find Krylions in 25 anywhere. Chainreaction say none available in that size until September :(
I'll check that information and get back to you....know they are short but not THAT short!
There don't seem to be any 25s in the entire world (as judged by an Ebay search).
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I presume if you put in an order now, at the rather good advertised price, they have to honour it when stock arrives?
Thats between you and them but I expect they would....think they bought the new stock at a rather good price anyway! LOL
I still can't find Krylions in 25 anywhere. Chainreaction say none available in that size until September :(
I'll check that information and get back to you....know they are short but not THAT short!
There don't seem to be any 25s in the entire world (as judged by an Ebay search).
What about
Bike24 - Michelin Krylion Carbon folding tire (http://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;navigation=1;product=4088;page=1;menu=1000,4,22,35;mid=0;pgc=0)
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Oooh! Funnily enough, I checked them earlier today but the entire site was down.
Thanks :)
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So do you make tyres for bicycles then? The reason I ask is that there's nothing about them on your UK web site :)
try www.michelin.co.uk/bicycle - should direct you in! :D
Object not found! :(
That link appears to be broken - spoke to out webmaster who is going to repair it when he has a chance - but for now it should be accessible via Bike tyres, Bike tyre range, mtb tyres- Michelin (http://bicycle.michelin.co.uk)
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Been looking at this thread for the first time in a while.
Been running on the last of the Stelvio 25s that Spa were selling off cheap a while back, but will need some new tyres before long.
Krylion Carbon 25s would be about the right level for me....
KidJambo Why are these so hard to find?
Surely when RCUK say stuff like
Few tyres acquire legendary status before being discontinued by the manufacturer; one exception, but only just, is Michelin's Krylion Carbon clincher, which is still theoretically available despite being, in practice, about as easy to find on retail shelves as a healthy Clement No.6 silk tub.
back in March 2009 - a manufacturer should sit up, take notice, ramp up production of all widths/colours .... get stock in to the distribution channels to capitalise on the free advertising? OK I know all that takes time. But CRC are saying stock due in (on all out of stock Michelins) 20 SEPTEMBER 2010 !
Am I being over cynical in thinking the Krylion just too good a tyre (in all the aspects that we consider desirable) for the price, and therefore production is switched to less durable/higher price tyres like the ProRace 3 ?
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Been looking at this thread for the first time in a while.
Been running on the last of the Stelvio 25s that Spa were selling off cheap a while back, but will need some new tyres before long.
Krylion Carbon 25s would be about the right level for me....
KidJambo Why are these so hard to find?
Surely when RCUK say stuff like
Few tyres acquire legendary status before being discontinued by the manufacturer; one exception, but only just, is Michelin's Krylion Carbon clincher, which is still theoretically available despite being, in practice, about as easy to find on retail shelves as a healthy Clement No.6 silk tub.
back in March 2009 - a manufacturer should sit up, take notice, ramp up production of all widths/colours .... get stock in to the distribution channels to capitalise on the free advertising? OK I know all that takes time. But CRC are saying stock due in (on all out of stock Michelins) 20 SEPTEMBER 2010 !
Am I being over cynical in thinking the Krylion just too good a tyre (in all the aspects that we consider desirable) for the price, and therefore production is switched to less durable/higher price tyres like the ProRace 3 ?
They were available from CRC back in the spring for a cheap price (£19.99) and in 25mm too.
The Pro Race is a different type of tyre, it's not some kind of conspiracy
Vittoria Rubino Pro are widely and cheaply available and are a similar kind of tyre concept to the Krylion
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I think it is because the bulk of the sales are in 23mm, and Michelin are struggling to keep up with demand for the 23s.
25mm isn't all that popular a size, even if it is a very good compromise between comfort and speed.
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I think it is because the bulk of the sales are in 23mm, and Michelin are struggling to keep up with demand for the 23s.
25mm isn't all that popular a size, even if it is a very good compromise between comfort and speed.
Just wanted to quickly respond on the issue of why this tyre is not available and also to dispell a few myths! The Krylion Carbon is a fantastic tyre - the one I ride myself through choice - and is certainly not being discontinued. It is a good selling tyre but not when you compare to Pro3 which is the priority for the department. Our production capacity is booked roughly 12 months in advance and its not simply a case of "ramping things up". Not sure why demand on these has gone through the roof but UK sales were at 300% in May when we ran out of these. Our production is based on our forecasts - I submit one for every product for a rolling 12-month period based on expectations and history etc - and I think its spot-on....just that demand, for whatever reason, has gone through the roof across Europe and we simply cannot react.
I would suggest if CRC have the same date for every out-of-stock Michelin then they are just being lazy and not hunting out the information. We only deal with wholesalers and not the retail trade ditrectly so have no dialogue with this customer so not sure where they are getting their information from.
I am off to France for our summer sales conference with my colleagues from aound the globe plus the central team so might have more information when I get back and will post anything useful on here. If its bad news then I might not bother though as I spend most days fending questions from our wholesale distribution partners about why products are on order and when they will see them which seriously affects my mood and I wouldn't wanna start getting a reputation for being a grumpy bugger on here! LOL
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Utter speculation, KJ, but some people have noted fatter tyres in use in the peleton in some races.
That will drive demand for fatter tyres.
Also, the roads around europe have been really hammered by the past winter. Pro Race tyres are damn expensive, so people might be stepping down a level for their training tyres.
The Krylion is garnering an increasing reputation for durability (I've been really impressed), so expect demand to stay high for a while.
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Utter speculation, KJ, but some people have noted fatter tyres in use in the peleton in some races.
That will drive demand for fatter tyres.
Also, the roads around europe have been really hammered by the past winter. Pro Race tyres are damn expensive, so people might be stepping down a level for their training tyres.
The Krylion is garnering an increasing reputation for durability (I've been really impressed), so expect demand to stay high for a while.
Thats true....plus some other manufacturers have had some issues with some of their comparative products which puts more demand on ours too.
You say Pro3 are "damn expensive" and whilst the price gap at RRP is big between them and the Krylion, in relaity is the gao so big? I know CRC were selling them cheap in the summer but people are unlikey to do deals now they are short and will sell them closer to the RRP of £31...probably more than a Pro3 now! :s
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Pro3 are mostly 50% dearer than Krylion, with a shorter predicted lifespan.
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Pro3 are mostly 50% dearer than Krylion, with a shorter predicted lifespan.
They should be 50% dearer but doubt they are in reality...although they do last about twice as long! :D
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Pro3 are mostly 50% dearer than Krylion, with a shorter predicted lifespan.
They should be 50% dearer but doubt they are in reality...although they do last about twice as long! :D
I'm quoting from prices online.
Krylion - £19.99
Pro3 = £30.99
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Pro3 are mostly 50% dearer than Krylion, with a shorter predicted lifespan.
They should be 50% dearer but doubt they are in reality...although they do last about twice as long! :D
I'm quoting from prices online.
Krylion - £19.99
Pro3 = £30.99
Just sat with my supply chain guy now in France - won't see any 25C Krylions globaly until the end of August at least - production capacity has been an aissue and they have been told to prioritise production onto key products and the Krylion, in 25C anyway, does not fall into that catagory. Sorry folks!
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I never pay more than £22 for Pro 3 tyres. Haven't tried Krylions yet
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won't see any 25C Krylions globaly until the end of August at least
Bah. I'll just have to stock up a bit when they appear. Thanks for the info KidJambo.
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Just sat with my supply chain guy now in France - won't see any 25C Krylions globaly until the end of August at least - production capacity has been an aissue and they have been told to prioritise production onto key products and the Krylion, in 25C anyway, does not fall into that catagory. Sorry folks!
KJ - Where does the Pro Race in 25C fit in the scheme of priorities?
Anyone know of any stocks of those - at a competitive price?
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CRC have them for 24.99 if you buy 3.
Group buy, anyone?
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CRC have them for 24.99 if you buy 3.
Group buy, anyone?
£48.50 for 2 at Ribble with offer code Tour6
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CRC have them for 24.99 if you buy 3.
Group buy, anyone?
£48.50 for 2 at Ribble with offer code Tour6
We are after 25mm
tRibble don't stock them.
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Just sat with my supply chain guy now in France - won't see any 25C Krylions globaly until the end of August at least - production capacity has been an aissue and they have been told to prioritise production onto key products and the Krylion, in 25C anyway, does not fall into that catagory. Sorry folks!
KJ - Where does the Pro Race in 25C fit in the scheme of priorities?
Anyone know of any stocks of those - at a competitive price?
Pro 3 Race is higher priority than any other range but not the 25C version which sells less than the 25C in Krylion Carbon
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We are after 25mm
tRibble don't stock them.
They don't stock the Krylion 25, but they show stock of the Pro Race 3 in 25
Buried in the middle of this page
Michelin Pro 3 Race Folding Tyre (http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/Michelin-TYRES-ROAD-TRI-TRACK-FOLDING-Michelin-Pro-3-Race-Folding-Tyre/MICHTYRF160)
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I've been planning to get some 25mm Krylion's in the autumn hoping the current 23mm ProRace3's will last until then. However, I've just spotted a cut in the rear (1500 miles) from part way across tread to half way across sidewall. The outer rubber is cut through and there's some damage to the inner layer but none showing from the inside. There's a very slight bulge with the tyre at pressure (hardly anything though). I'm not sure how long it will last so I've ordered a 23mm Krylion in case.
Actually I'm beginning to wonder whether a ProRace3 on the front and a harder wearing Krylion on the back is a sensible compromise for summer use.
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I've been planning to get some 25mm Krylion's in the autumn hoping the current 23mm ProRace3's will last until then. However, I've just spotted a cut in the rear (1500 miles) from part way across tread to half way across sidewall. The outer rubber is cut through and there's some damage to the inner layer but none showing from the inside. There's a very slight bulge with the tyre at pressure (hardly anything though). I'm not sure how long it will last so I've ordered a 23mm Krylion in case.
Actually I'm beginning to wonder whether a ProRace3 on the front and a harder wearing Krylion on the back is a sensible compromise for summer use.
Or maybe the new Michelin Pro Optimum??
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I'm going to try them next for audax - running PR2s that I had lying around at the moment.
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I'm going to try them next for audax - running PR2s that I had lying around at the moment.
We are moving our exhibition/publicity stores and I am having a spring clean of stuff - found a pair of original Axial Pro tyres - Halloween ones in black and orange with little pumpkins around the sidewall - they would look lovely on that Orbea I have my eye on! LOL
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:-)
No review samples of Optimums I suppose? ;D
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:-)
No review samples of Optimums I suppose? ;D
No bloody tyres FULL STOP! :"(
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I know that you have little influence, but can you point out to your superiors that they are going to start losing customer?
I thought I'd found my perfect tyre in the carbon 25, but I can't wait months for michelin to get round to making some more. I'm not going to spend more on a tyre that doesn't last as long.
so I'll probably end up buying another pasela tg.
It's hard to recommend a tyre to someone when it just isn't available.
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I know that you have little influence, but can you point out to your superiors that they are going to start losing customer?
I thought I'd found my perfect tyre in the carbon 25, but I can't wait months for michelin to get round to making some more. I'm not going to spend more on a tyre that doesn't last as long.
so I'll probably end up buying another pasela tg.
It's hard to recommend a tyre to someone when it just isn't available.
I have little influence? Do you know who I am?? LOL
Actually, we are largely at the mercy of local conditions being as we produce in the far east - apparently the political disruption in Thailand earlier in the year screwed everything up and took us a while for us to resolve. We are now back at full capacity and of all of the current back orders of tyres and tubes, 50% will be cleared this month and 90% of the total by the end of next month with a priority given to premium road tyres...but maybe not in 25C!
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I have little influence? Do you know who I am?? LOL
You're KJ, who keeps telling us about tyres that never appear. :demon:
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I have little influence? Do you know who I am?? LOL
You're KJ, who keeps telling us about tyres that never appear. :demon:
Thats not actually my offical job title although its all I seem to do at the moment - trust me I am as p*ssed off as everyone else as I provision what the UK are going to sell, forecast my production demands and outline my product needs and then they don't make what I want which leaves me fending enquiries from customers all day when I should be doing something fun! :"(
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Move the factory to Crumlin. You know it makes sense.
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Move the factory to Crumlin. You know it makes sense.
Crumlin as in Ireland?? I think the labour costs might be slightly jigher than the Far East! :s
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So how come everyone's got 23mm grey Pro Race 3 tyres reduced to 20 squid? I've bought a few - is there something I should know?!?
[I actually destroyed a brand new one days before the MC1K - metal staple/tie thing went straight through sidewall and tube. Fortunately the other one has managed 800 miles without trouble.]
And how come the 2 that just arrived from Planet X had no packaging (it was like opening a bag of snakes) ?
EDIT: oooops. I seem to have purchased the "Light" model this time. Guess I'll reserve these for special occasions / good conditions only.
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No packaging probably means OEM
I don't think I've ever paid more than £22 for a PR3, only a fool pays the rrp.
Maybe there is a PR4 coming out soon?
Great great tyres, but easily trashed. I've got a couple of Krylion carbons on the way. £19 from CRC. Am prepared to sacrifice a bit of speed for longevity.
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Anyone seen cheap PR3s around in pale blue?
I've have the grey ones (and they're getting thin) they're just a bit too dull... for a tart like me ::-)
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So how come everyone's got 23mm grey Pro Race 3 tyres reduced to 20 squid? I've bought a few - is there something I should know?!?
The dark grey version was removed from the line-up of colours for 2010 and replaced by the all black tyre. Any residual stock would have been liquidated to our wholesale distribution partners - including any OEM stocks which would be loose/unpackaged. Hope this answers your questions!
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So how come everyone's got 23mm grey Pro Race 3 tyres reduced to 20 squid? I've bought a few - is there something I should know?!?
The dark grey version was removed from the line-up of colours for 2010 and replaced by the all black tyre. Any residual stock would have been liquidated to our wholesale distribution partners - including any OEM stocks which would be loose/unpackaged. Hope this answers your questions!
Ahh.. that explains it (having just put a pair of dark grey PR3 23mm on the new wheels with the Latex inner tubes. The tyres are a bugger to fit on Fulcrum rims.. Much swearing and hoping to not get a puncture ensues.
Roll very nicely though.
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So how come everyone's got 23mm grey Pro Race 3 tyres reduced to 20 squid? I've bought a few - is there something I should know?!?
The dark grey version was removed from the line-up of colours for 2010 and replaced by the all black tyre. Any residual stock would have been liquidated to our wholesale distribution partners - including any OEM stocks which would be loose/unpackaged. Hope this answers your questions!
Its weird how you say about the tight fit - had a few comments really - although usually on Campag rims. Ours fit best on Mavic or Sehimano - who we test with basically - but it does seem to be that when you get a tyre and rim manufacturer from the same country they work well together - strange isn't it! LOL
Ahh.. that explains it (having just put a pair of dark grey PR3 23mm on the new wheels with the Latex inner tubes. The tyres are a bugger to fit on Fulcrum rims.. Much swearing and hoping to not get a p*nct*r* ensues.
Roll very nicely though.
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Krylions still get mentioned in reviews as excellent training tyres with outstanding puncture resistance :thumbsup:
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Not being in the same expert class as most of your respondents I have only just skimmed this. FWIW, for purely recreational/can't-afford-other-transport riders I reckon most important quality is ease of getting on/off, in the dark, in the wet, in the cold...
I gave up on most "p.... resistant" tyres ages ago - nearly all are difficult to fit. As ALL tyres will go pop sooner or later, I simply choose those that, when they do, I can easily change the tube!
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I use Mavic rims and the Michelin tyres I use I can remove ( unlike Nutty ) without tyre levers. Just thumbs is all I need. That is all that is require to get them back on too. Makes it much less of a hassle on the commute.
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Not being in the same expert class as most of your respondents I have only just skimmed this. FWIW, for purely recreational/can't-afford-other-transport riders I reckon most important quality is ease of getting on/off, in the dark, in the wet, in the cold...
I gave up on most "p.... resistant" tyres ages ago - nearly all are difficult to fit. As ALL tyres will go pop sooner or later, I simply choose those that, when they do, I can easily change the tube!
I agree, except Schwalbe Marathon Plus is an exception. The chance of each one ever puncturing in its whole life is so low that it's worth the slight risk of one day having hassle.
I am still prepared for it, however, and I wouldn't advise anyone using a tyre that they can't remove and refit themselves.
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EDIT: oooops. I seem to have purchased the "Light" model this time. Guess I'll reserve these for special occasions / good conditions only.
I fell for that one too! It wasn't easy to spot in the ad. Still, should be interesting to try them! :-)
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"The chance of each one ever puncturing in its whole life is so low that it's worth the slight risk of one day having hassle."
Well...other than on some of the legitimate cycle trails at the Beeston end of Attenborough Reserve (for Nottm readers!) where there has been a spate of carpet tack-strewing by locals in recent weeks. I've had more blow outs in 3 weeks than all last winter!
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Actually, we are largely at the mercy of local conditions being as we produce in the far east - apparently the political disruption in Thailand earlier in the year screwed everything up and took us a while for us to resolve. We are now back at full capacity and of all of the current back orders of tyres and tubes, 50% will be cleared this month and 90% of the total by the end of next month with a priority given to premium road tyres...but maybe not in 25C!
I presume production in Thailand refers just to the Krylions and Pro 3s? As the other day I bought a World Tour which is made in Czech Republic. Perhaps I should add that I'm not in the UK but Poland, so maybe out of your area, figuratively and literally.
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I use Mavic rims and the Michelin tyres I use I can remove ( unlike Nutty ) without tyre levers. Just thumbs is all I need. That is all that is require to get them back on too. Makes it much less of a hassle on the commute.
Usually I can do that but this particular combination were rather tough. I ended up having to use a tyre lever to fit the tyres.
..d
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I use Mavic rims and the Michelin tyres I use I can remove ( unlike Nutty ) without tyre levers. Just thumbs is all I need. That is all that is require to get them back on too. Makes it much less of a hassle on the commute.
It is weird how a combination of tyres and rims from manufacturers in the same country always seems to offer a perfect fit! LOL
I should point out that we largely test with Mavic and Shimano so tend to have the best fit on these rims!
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Actually, we are largely at the mercy of local conditions being as we produce in the far east - apparently the political disruption in Thailand earlier in the year screwed everything up and took us a while for us to resolve. We are now back at full capacity and of all of the current back orders of tyres and tubes, 50% will be cleared this month and 90% of the total by the end of next month with a priority given to premium road tyres...but maybe not in 25C!
I presume production in Thailand refers just to the Krylions and Pro 3s? As the other day I bought a World Tour which is made in Czech Republic. Perhaps I should add that I'm not in the UK but Poland, so maybe out of your area, figuratively and literally.
They must be old stocks as I am fairly certain we don't produce any tyres in that plant anymore only some tubes
All tyre production is in the Far East now; premium (folding) tyres in Thailand and standard (rigid) tyres in Taiwan
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EDIT: oooops. I seem to have purchased the "Light" model this time. Guess I'll reserve these for special occasions / good conditions only.
I fell for that one too! It wasn't easy to spot in the ad. Still, should be interesting to try them! :-)
Lights are really designed for time trials etc - the durability and p*n*t*r* resilience has been sacrificed for weight saving - bloody lovely if you can afford to change them all the time though!
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EDIT: oooops. I seem to have purchased the "Light" model this time. Guess I'll reserve these for special occasions / good conditions only.
I fell for that one too! It wasn't easy to spot in the ad. Still, should be interesting to try them! :-)
Lights are really designed for time trials etc - the durability and p*n*t*r* resilience has been sacrificed for weight saving - bloody lovely if you can afford to change them all the time though!
Which are the Light? The Service Course? I have those on the bike and was rolling like an absolute dream. Then again it was slightly downhill and the pies may have something to do with it.. (90 kg, 110psi)
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EDIT: oooops. I seem to have purchased the "Light" model this time. Guess I'll reserve these for special occasions / good conditions only.
I fell for that one too! It wasn't easy to spot in the ad. Still, should be interesting to try them! :-)
Lights are really designed for time trials etc - the durability and p*n*t*r* resilience has been sacrificed for weight saving - bloody lovely if you can afford to change them all the time though!
Which are the Light? The Service Course? I have those on the bike and was rolling like an absolute dream. Then again it was slightly downhill and the pies may have something to do with it.. (90 kg, 110psi)
The lights are clearly marked....all Pro3 tyres carry the "Service Course" logo
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Not your department I know but can you make it easier to navigate to cycling products on michelin.co.uk UK? On Safari at least I have to navigate elsewhere in the site before I see the 'Change Site' option.
Secondly your wildbike site recommended me Wildgrips but I can't find any information on them on the site! What sizes are they in? More specifically do you do a 29er version?
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Not your department I know but can you make it easier to navigate to cycling products on michelin.co.uk UK? On Safari at least I have to navigate elsewhere in the site before I see the 'Change Site' option.
Secondly your wildbike site recommended me Wildgrips but I can't find any information on them on the site! What sizes are they in? More specifically do you do a 29er version?
It really isn't my department but I am aware of the issues - the old website is out of date and the new website is not up and running as yet. There should be more on the global site (Michelin group: Tires, car tire maker, guide michelin, michelin map and sustainable mobility (http://www.michelin.com))
I can send you a brochure if you PM me your address but the Wild Grip'R is available as;
26 x 2.00 Advanced Tubeless
26 x 2.00 Tube-type
26 x 2.10 Tube-type
26 x 2.25 Advanced Tubeless
26 x 2.25 Tube-type
26 x 2.40 Advanced reinforced Tubeless
26 x 2.40 Reinforced Tube-type
26 x 2.50 Descent
26 x 2.60 Heavy-Duty Descent
The onlt 29" currently available (hint) is in the Wild Race-R sculpture
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Referring back to previous discussions about Krylion Carbon 25s.....
I see CRC are no longer forecasting September, it's now END NOVEMBER
KJ ..... what's the story? Pretty sure I will need to buy something before November, and PR3 are not really an option for me in the winter.
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I bought some a couple of weeks ago
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Referring back to previous discussions about Krylion Carbon 25s.....
I see CRC are no longer forecasting September, it's now END NOVEMBER
KJ ..... what's the story? Pretty sure I will need to buy something before November, and PR3 are not really an option for me in the winter.
Pro 3 Grip. Fantastic through the winter unless you live in the land of flints.
..d
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From where Flatus?
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Oh sorry! It's the 25mm you are after, I use 23mm Doh!
this place (http://www.mailorderbikes.com/products.php?plid=m8b639s305p2991&rs=gb) has them but £5 more
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Yeh, I've got a 23mm on the rear at the moment with a 23mm PR3 on the front but fancied trying two 25's for the winter. Thanks anyway. Think I might just stick to conti's for the winter ;)
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If my last pair of Schwalbe Stelvio Evo 25s are shot before the Krylions come back in, I now have a pair of Bonti Hardcase RaceLite 25 in reserve. The budget for the Krylions may get blown on some studded Shwalbe Winter tyres.
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i would be interested in a GOOD 406 touring tyre and i know a number of recumbent and folder cycle riders who would benefit from such a tyre :). at the moment i am using big apple and supreme by schwalbe . a lot of recumbent riders race there machines so how about one of your race tires in 406. for touring a good tread that is as resistant to cuts as much as possible with a medium thickness sidewall to keep the weight as low as possible without sacrificing strength :thumbsup:.
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Referring back to previous discussions about Krylion Carbon 25s.....
I see CRC are no longer forecasting September, it's now END NOVEMBER
KJ ..... what's the story? Pretty sure I will need to buy something before November, and PR3 are not really an option for me in the winter.
Not wishing to make excuses (political uprisings in Bangkok that stopped our production for a few weeks, boats with containers of our tyres/tubes on catching fire, strikes in French ports etc) but we are playing "catch-up" on stock orders. Priority of production goes to 23C and so it keeps getting put back. As I speak the information is that some stock is trickling through but we won't clear the back orders until the end of next month at the earliest so delivery mid/late november is the best we can confirm at present - not good I'm afraid - especially as I run these and can't get any either!
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i would be interested in a GOOD 406 touring tyre and i know a number of recumbent and folder cycle riders who would benefit from such a tyre :). at the moment i am using big apple and supreme by schwalbe . a lot of recumbent riders race there machines so how about one of your race tires in 406. for touring a good tread that is as resistant to cuts as much as possible with a medium thickness sidewall to keep the weight as low as possible without sacrificing strength :thumbsup:.
Request noted! :thumbsup:
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Same for 349 for the Brompton, please.
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Same for 349 for the Brompton, please.
That's a noice idea - a Krylion Carbon for the Brommie would be ace. Probably quite a decent market for them too.
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Same for 349 for the Brompton, please.
That's a noice idea - a Krylion Carbon for the Brommie would be ace. Probably quite a decent market for them too.
What would you envisage is a "decent" size for a market??
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I dunno, but it's a decent enough size market for Schwalbe. You could compete with their Kojak, Marathon Plus and something in between.
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I dunno, but it's a decent enough size market for Schwalbe. You could compete with their Kojak, Marathon Plus and something in between.
I think the main issue on market size would be that it appears to be very much a UK market and not sure what demand there is for such creatures in other key markets which is what would influence us in a decision to venture into doing something like this I'm afraid!
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Brommie riders tend to be from the higher income bands.
Just sayin'...
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I dunno, but it's a decent enough size market for Schwalbe. You could compete with their Kojak, Marathon Plus and something in between.
I think the main issue on market size would be that it appears to be very much a UK market and not sure what demand there is for such creatures in other key markets which is what would influence us in a decision to venture into doing something like this I'm afraid!
Fair enough. I think they're churning out over 20,000 a year at present, much helped by the Cycle to work schemes, and a lot of them get used regularly in my experience. There must be an installed base of 100,000 ish - heavily skewed to the UK for sure, and far, far more A/B/C1 than D/E. The risk is that the current Brompton badged tyres are actually quite good, and you can also get a Schwalbe lighter tyre. I've no idea how they sell. I'd have thought that the fairly conservative demographic would go hammer and tongues for a "known" brand like Michelin though, as a premium option.
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Brompton export as well as sell in the UK. 22,000 Bromptoms are made each year, and I excpect there's several hundred thousand in regular use - with owners likely to be interested in new models of tyres as the current choice for them is quite small.
It's a big enough market for Schwalbe. It's disappointing if it's too small for Michelin.
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If the riders are wealthy, aren't they likely to have their bikes maintained by a dealer, in which case the dealer will fit whatever they have to hand. The exception being people who race them, and there's literally several of them.
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Well, if Michelin isn't as good as Schwalbe, Kid... ;)
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ps. The Brompton market may be relatively small, but relatively little advertising would be needed too, as word of new prouducts is loudly spread amoungst the community by users, or deals could be done direct with the manufacturer, like it seems Schwalbe has done.
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If the riders are wealthy, aren't they likely to have their bikes maintained by a dealer, in which case the dealer will fit whatever they have to hand. The exception being people who race them, and there's literally several of them.
The dealer may have a preference for one tyre over another if it's more satisfying for the customer or if there's more profit in it for them. Michelin can compete on those terms, if it wishes, or do a deal with Brompton so that dealers are automatically supplied with spare tyres from Michelin.
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I am not saying its not a market we would be interested in entering - just requires some research first thats all.
Firstly we have to look at the annual consumption of tyres globally (and I suspect that 50%+ is in the UK), who else has an offer in the market, what products they offer and thus what level of product we would be wanting to pitch at the market, what market share could we realistically expect to attain given this and what margin we could realisitically expect to attain given all this. Then we need to weigh this up against the increase in capacity in the factory and the cost of R&D and new equipment (moulds etc) for a brand new product and if the former is greater than the later then its something we might look into but if it isn't then it would be shelved immediately - its simple economics to be honest. There are a number of what I would call niche markets that we are present in and are only in because we have a good market share and are already involved in the activity whereas if we came to look at starting in the market today we almost certainly wouldn't bother.
I do seriously appreciate all the feedback though. My initial thought on this is that Schwalbe and private label tyres probably have the market sewn up - unless we could make a tyre that was better than the Schwalbe and cheaper! If we could get OE on the bikes then it might be more worthwhile - can anyone tell me what they come fitted with normally?
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Brompton are producing around 25,000 bikes/units this year and are planning on 25% annual growth for the next five years. Two thirds of their production is exported, mostly to Germany and the Netherlands.
Stock tyres are Brompton-labelled Cheng Shin with Schwalbe Kojak or Marathon as alternatives.
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Brompton are producing around 25,000 bikes/units a year this year and are planning on 25% annual growth for the next five years. Two thirds of their production is exported, mostly to Germany and the Netherlands.
Stock tyres are Brompton-labelled Cheng Shin with Schwalbe Kojak or Marathon as alternatives.
Thank you for the information. I can say from the start that we cannot compete with Cheng Shin on OE so thats probably out for a start and only leaves the after market for us to go at. If we make a general assumption that a lot of these bikes are used and well maintained then maybe the global market is 100,000 tyres per annum. There are two Kojak offers from Schwalbe which, for next year, will have a public price of €26 or €36 which I guess means it would be our City tyre that we would look at offering. I will put all of this information onto a file for our R&D team in central along with some stuff off their website and see what they think!
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25mm Krylions now in stock @ CRC
Referring back to previous discussions about Krylion Carbon 25s.....
I see CRC are no longer forecasting September, it's now END NOVEMBER
KJ ..... what's the story? Pretty sure I will need to buy something before November, and PR3 are not really an option for me in the winter.
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25mm Krylions now in stock @ CRC
Referring back to previous discussions about Krylion Carbon 25s.....
I see CRC are no longer forecasting September, it's now END NOVEMBER
KJ ..... what's the story? Pretty sure I will need to buy something before November, and PR3 are not really an option for me in the winter.
Most up-to-date information I have is that the first production on this tyre is this week so will arrive in France around the last week of October (into dealers first/second week of November) but this is only enough to clear around 60% of the current back order so I cannot guarantee if CRC will be getting their back-orders fulfilled from this first shipment
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I ordered some on Saturday. Given KJ's comments in the above post, I'll wait and see if they turn up.
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Ordered mine on Thursday evening soon after receiving CRC stock alert - they arrived this morning so you should get yours soonish.
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Yep! Just got and email from CRC to say that mine have been shipped. Yippee!
Wonder where they got them from :-X
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Yep! Just got and email from CRC to say that mine have been shipped. Yippee!
Wonder where they got them from :-X
It looks like we shipped a VERY small quantity last week - the shipment I was discussing was the main production to clear half of the current sizeable back-order - don't fret, they are genuine and not cheap Chinese fakes! LOL
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I know you're joking, but are fake tyres a problem? I guess anything with a reputable brand name is likely to get faked at some point.
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I know you're joking, but are fake tyres a problem? I guess anything with a reputable brand name is likely to get faked at some point.
As far as I am aware, fake cycle tyres are not an issue as yet - nobody is gonna copy a £30 Pro3 Race given how much they would take to make - although they obviously do copy certain popular tread sculptures on MTB tyres and use similar nakes but easy to tell as the quality is shit and the rubber is hard as rock! :s
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That's good news. I'm not really bothered by a look-alike called 'Nichelin' or whatever (though I'm sure your legal dept would be) because, as you say, even if you did overlook the misspelling, the quality and design would probably as 'adidos' (once sold in every town market here in Eastern Europe) is to the real adidas. An actual half-decent fake would be a different issue.
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new Krylions arrived today. Another point to CRC
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Ha - only just spotted this thread.
In your previous thread, you mentioned an upcoming marathon supreme killer.
Was that ever released? And what is it?
Thanks.
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Hi KidJambo.
I've raised this in another thread, and someone suggested it was something I should ask you.
I was riding my fixed in the snow yesterday, and realised that, unless the snow gets really deep, or particularly lumpy, then using my three speed fixed would be good, if...
If I could find some tyres (no bigger than 700x28) which are a bit chunky - like CX tyres - but with a decent degree of puncture protection for urban commuting.
See, the snow very rarely gets too bad here in London, so something that would be better than my regular tarmac tyres, but doesn't need to be studded (can't be - they're waaay too big to fit).
Any suggestions?
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...tyres (no bigger than 700x28) which are a bit chunky - like CX tyres - but with a decent degree of p*nct*r* protection for urban commuting...
We are really struggling for something that fits the bill here for you - I would suggest you are looking for a Trekking tyre rather than a City tyre - we have Tracker and Pilot Tracker that both have a slight block tread and excellent pucture resilience....but start at 35C width I'm afraid.
I hate to admit it but you might be better looking to Schwalbe as their range in this area is superior (in quantity of products although not quality I am sure) to ours! Hope that this helps :D
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Any chance of a 700x23c with studs? I'm only half-joking.
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Clarion:
Have you considered "ordinary" CX tyres? They're not something I have experience with (except looking at bikes), but I would imagine they'd be more P-resistant than equivalent road tyres. I know they vary a lot (for different conditions): picking the ones with deepest tread would perhaps give you a lot of p-protection without any fancy linings.
(I have ridden with someone using CX tyres on dry tarmac, and he has no problems with handling or similar.)
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That's the direction I'm going. Just thought I'd give it a try...
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Something tougher than Schwalbe Durano or Panaracer in 520 - 25s or 28s, for the Airnimal. If Marathon + was available in a small enough profile to fit, I'd buy them after my two duranos each lasted less than 200kms. However, if the market isn't big enough for the brommie, I'd imagine my wish is in the fanciful category.
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More of a question for KidJ than anything else....but others may have input too.
Following on from earlier discussions upthread, I finally got some 700x25 Krylions from CRC....., at last their stock, my need, available funds all came together.
Just put them on the postal scales. One of them is 254 grams, the other is 266 grams. Now I'd except some variation and I'd be the last to claim these scales are in any way scientifically accurate, but they are more or less consistent.... and 5% between what would expect to be two tyres from same batch seems quite a lot ?
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Pete:
I'd be interested to know if they go equally easily onto the same rim!
(The variations in reported fitting stiffness is often attributed to small variations in manufactured tyre dimension.)
I've just had one from CRC too, might weigh it later.
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More of a question for KidJ than anything else....but others may have input too.
Following on from earlier discussions upthread, I finally got some 700x25 Krylions from CRC....., at last their stock, my need, available funds all came together.
Just put them on the postal scales. One of them is 254 grams, the other is 266 grams. Now I'd except some variation and I'd be the last to claim these scales are in any way scientifically accurate, but they are more or less consistent.... and 5% between what would expect to be two tyres from same batch seems quite a lot ?
You are right in saying that there are tollerances when it comes to the sizing and weight of cycle tyres - and Michelin tend to be more exact than others I must say - never come across a differential between two "identical" tyres before to that extent though - would be interested to see if they fit the same onto the rim oas one obviously has more material than the other which may make it stiffer and thus harder to fit
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What is the real precision of your scales?
Do they actually measure to the gram or to a larger unit (and just give the impression of being precise to a gram)
..d
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Even the cheapest electronic scales are usually precise to 1 or 2g nowdays. Accuracy is a different matter, and unknown unless you test with a known weight, but I suspect most are accurate to within about 4g (if placed on a level firm surface).
I've found similar differences as PpPete with tyres of the same model.
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You are right in saying that there are tolerances when it comes to the sizing and weight of cycle tyres - and Michelin tend to be more exact than others I must say - never come across a differential between two "identical" tyres before to that extent though - would be interested to see if they fit the same onto the rim oas one obviously has more material than the other which may make it stiffer and thus harder to fit
Sorry for delayed update on this.... a weekend's riding got in the way!
And of course on the principle that one should never make major changes before longer rides I decided to tempt the faeries by having one last go on the Stelvios......error ! First deflationary event in nearly 2000 miles.
Anyway as part of the cleaning/fettling session today I fitted the Krylions. No appreciable difference in ease of fit, if anything the heavier one was marginally easier. But certainly not difficult to fit on Open Pros anyway. None of the "squeeze it into the well and work it around" that you have to do on Marathons according to the Spa video.
As for accuracy of scales.... a 200g weight from old-fashioned kitchen scales ....showed as 200g, adding a 100g weight showed up as 301g on the screen. Not exactly scientific but a fair indication. I also weighed the tyres again before fitting, same number as last week, so we know they are consistent across a range of different atmospheric conditions.
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Hmm. I've just ordered a pair of Krylion 25s for my Audax bike. I was going to order two pairs so I have fresh ones for PBP but I'll check they're as good as they used to be first!
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Hmm. I've just ordered a pair of Krylion 25s for my Audax bike. I was going to order two pairs so I have fresh ones for PBP but I'll check they're as good as they used to be first!
I've not ridden mine yet... but you know that by the time you've decide you like them that they will be out of stock again ?
This is what the French call: La loi d'emmerdement maximum .... one for your PBP phrasebooks.
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Hmm. I've just ordered a pair of Krylion 25s for my Audax bike. I was going to order two pairs so I have fresh ones for PBP but I'll check they're as good as they used to be first!
I've not ridden mine yet... but you know that by the time you've decide you like them that they will be out of stock again ?
This is what the French call: La loi d'emmerdement maximum .... one for your PBP phrasebooks.
The marvellous Michelin online translator gave that as "The law of emmerdement maximum" LMAO
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Hmm. I've just ordered a pair of Krylion 25s for my Audax bike. I was going to order two pairs so I have fresh ones for PBP but I'll check they're as good as they used to be first!
I've not ridden mine yet... but you know that by the time you've decide you like them that they will be out of stock again ?
This is what the French call: La loi d'emmerdement maximum .... one for your PBP phrasebooks.
The marvellous Michelin online translator gave that as "The law of emmerdement maximum" LMAO
Now I know I shall have to avoid any cow pats on country lanes....
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Something in 700x28C similar to Panaracer Paselas.
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Hmm. I've just ordered a pair of Krylion 25s for my Audax bike. I was going to order two pairs so I have fresh ones for PBP but I'll check they're as good as they used to be first!
I've not ridden mine yet... but you know that by the time you've decide you like them that they will be out of stock again ?
This is what the French call: La loi d'emmerdement maximum .... one for your PBP phrasebooks.
Good point. I've ordered a second pair.
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Request to Michelin and other tyre companies:
Please make your tyres available in traditional amber sidewall/black tread in addition to the various colour combinations.
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Request to Michelin and other tyre companies:
Please make your tyres available in traditional amber sidewall/black tread in addition to the various colour combinations.
You want Panaracer Paselas you do!
(http://www.reb.co.uk/bj2.jpg)
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Now show us what it looks like after an hour of braking in the rain :demon:
Please stick to black sidewalls, Michelin and Vittoria, et al.
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Now show us what it looks like after an hour of braking in the rain :demon:
Please stick to black sidewalls, Michelin and Vittoria, et al.
I only said make in amber sidewall/black tread in addition to the various colour combinations, eg black sidewall and tread, green sidewall/yellow tread etc etc..
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Request to Michelin and other tyre companies:
Please make your tyres available in traditional amber sidewall/black tread in addition to the various colour combinations.
You want Panaracer Paselas you do!
Yeah but that's just one tyre model. Out of the all the tyres currently made, there must be several hundreds of different tyres, I think maybe about 3 are available in amber sidewall/black tread.
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KJ - what is the Michelin closest equivalent to marathon supreme - 700x32?
Thanks.
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Request to Michelin and other tyre companies:
Please make your tyres available in traditional amber sidewall/black tread in addition to the various colour combinations.
We do!!!!! :D
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KJ - what is the Michelin closest equivalent to marathon supreme - 700x32?
Thanks.
Thats would be the Pilot Sport - HD protection but lightweight and fast rolling - couple that with a Protek Max "bumpy" tube and its ideal! :D