Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Freewheeling => Topic started by: SoreTween on 16 September, 2020, 11:40:37 am

Title: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: SoreTween on 16 September, 2020, 11:40:37 am
Apparently is has become illegal to ship bikes from Europe with the UK brake arrangement:

https://road.cc/content/news/cycling-live-blog-16-september-2020-277297 <- scroll down to 09:23
https://twitter.com/davearthur/status/1305944776932552704

This has to be bolx isn't it?  If it were true it would surely get killed on discrimination grounds in minutes.  Imagine telling a rider with poor motor control on the left side they can only have left/front brakes.  Front brakes require finesse, Cerebral Palsy or stroke sufferers (to name just two conditions) might have that on one side but not the other.

[Edited to add 'from Europe']
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 16 September, 2020, 11:43:48 am
Presumably this also affects Ireland, Cyprus, Malta (not to mention a whole load of other places they probably don't ship to anyway)?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 16 September, 2020, 11:46:32 am
I read this as a UK restriction.

Rose bikes say they are going to serial production - so will only setup bikes on one way. Their majority market is EU, so that will be with the EU brake setup.

If the UK is insisting on UK brake setup, then Rose can't ship.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 16 September, 2020, 11:59:01 am
Bikes need to meet the BS standard when sold in(to) the UK.
The age old dodge was to not fit pedals so you didn't have to fit a full complement of reflectors and bell.

Even though Rose are based in Germany any sales to the UK will probably still count as sold in the UK due to distance selling harmonisation.
The obvious way round is to have an EU address you can buy the bike from and then import it yourself at which point the sales restrictions don't count.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Kim on 16 September, 2020, 12:24:46 pm
Is this just bikes, or are they stopping selling to the UK entirely?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hubner on 16 September, 2020, 12:30:30 pm
I would have thought BS standard would only apply to a UK seller. If I bought an electrical item from Germany, I wouldn't expect it have a UK plug.

Rose could disconnect the brakes, isn't there some amount of self assembly needed with mail order bikes anyway, eg fitting pedals, front wheel etc? Ie they don't arrive ready to ride. Yes, modern brakes with left and right handed levers and "aero" cable routing makes it more complicted.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: SoreTween on 16 September, 2020, 12:32:36 pm
Just bikes. 
If you go to https://www.rosebikes.com/ it defaults to US and bikes are listed in the top menu.  Switch it to UK and bikes are removed from the menu.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 16 September, 2020, 12:35:08 pm

So, can I offer a relay position?

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Kim on 16 September, 2020, 12:42:43 pm
Just bikes.

Phew.  They're a useful source of Sensible German Accessories™.

Bikes are just an inconvenience.  If you really want to buy one, you can find a way.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: grams on 16 September, 2020, 12:53:14 pm
Do we reckon they sold many in the UK? I can't say I've seen many (any?) out and about, or talked about on forums etc.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: giropaul on 16 September, 2020, 12:55:45 pm
The only thing new here is Rose deciding that the UK market for the limited number of complete bikes they supply isn’t worth it.
I know a shop/ company that imports complete big-name bikes. They have always had to reverse the braking  before sale in the UK.
What the customer then does/ asks to have done post-purchase is up to the customer of course.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 16 September, 2020, 01:19:29 pm
I would have thought BS standard would only apply to a UK seller. If I bought an electrical item from Germany, I wouldn't expect it have a UK plug.

The later is also illegal if sold in the UK...


I tried reading the EU Directive, but my eyes glazed over faster than with the testing I'm meant to be doing.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32011L0083
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: fuaran on 16 September, 2020, 01:57:16 pm
Do we reckon they sold many in the UK? I can't say I've seen many (any?) out and about, or talked about on forums etc.
Look like pretty decent bikes, but most models are quite expensive, especially with recent exchange rates.

Canyon seem to be more popular/cheaper, for mountain bikes anyway.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 16 September, 2020, 02:07:17 pm
Do we reckon they sold many in the UK? I can't say I've seen many (any?) out and about, or talked about on forums etc.
I imagine it was relatively few, or it would have been worth while finding a way to continue.  Their own brand electric bikes seem well regarded, I know three people who've chosen them. 
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: IJL on 16 September, 2020, 02:25:51 pm
They have or had a showroom in Mansfield, I went for a look around in the new year and it was all in darkness and had been burgled and all the stock stolen a week or so earlier.
Maybe Mansfield put them off the UK. 
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Canardly on 16 September, 2020, 04:10:38 pm
Straight cucumber innit.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 16 September, 2020, 04:17:12 pm
They're screwed in the event of a no deal Brexit, as are we.  We'll need to pay SJSC twice as much for the same kit.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 16 September, 2020, 04:21:47 pm
They're screwed in the event of a no deal Brexit, as are we.  We'll need to pay SJSC twice as much for the same kit.

Now now, that's not fair.

You can also pay twice the price for it from wiggle too...

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 16 September, 2020, 07:10:09 pm
You've got an excellent career ahead of you as a freight forwarder sender of gifts to your friends and relations in the UK, QG. But you're going to need a bigger flat...
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 16 September, 2020, 07:13:31 pm
You've got an excellent career ahead of you as a freight forwarder sender of gifts to your friends and relations in the UK, QG. But you're going to need a bigger flat...

I just need to get someone in the UK to send me regular parcels of cadbury's dairy milk, bourbon creams, and extra mature cheddar...

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Mr Larrington on 16 September, 2020, 07:17:43 pm
I thought it always was illegal to sell, or even display, complete bikes with the brakes set up widdershins.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 16 September, 2020, 07:22:34 pm
They're screwed in the event of a no deal Brexit, as are we.  We'll need to pay SJSC twice as much for the same kit.

Not noticed the price creeping up?

Of course with this fantastic FTD with the Japanese which it appears the UK is already planning on passing laws that will allow them to breach...
Madison as sole UK Distributor of Shimano gear will be able to charge exactly what Shimano want them to charge as a direct conversion from Yen with appropriate mark up applied.

4x what we used to before Shimano started attacking discounting.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: citoyen on 16 September, 2020, 08:07:01 pm
Maybe Mansfield put them off the UK.

Mansfield would put me off the UK.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Gattopardo on 16 September, 2020, 08:23:51 pm
You've got an excellent career ahead of you as a freight forwarder sender of gifts to your friends and relations in the UK, QG. But you're going to need a bigger flat...

I just need to get someone in the UK to send me regular parcels of cadbury's dairy milk, bourbon creams, and extra mature cheddar...

J

Would that be a care parcel?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 16 September, 2020, 08:24:40 pm
Would that be a care parcel?

It would.

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 16 September, 2020, 10:10:27 pm
I'm not even sure what Bourbon creams are! Type of biscuit?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 16 September, 2020, 10:13:30 pm
I'm not even sure what Bourbon creams are! Type of biscuit?

Yes, usually found on the shelf next to the custard creams.

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Kim on 16 September, 2020, 11:06:36 pm
Chocolate biscuit that tastes like ground-up antimalarial tablets...
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rr on 16 September, 2020, 11:37:34 pm
Do we reckon they sold many in the UK? I can't say I've seen many (any?) out and about, or talked about on forums etc.
I've got one, an disc braked cross bike, customised to a gravel/winter road bike before such things were available off the self.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: fd3 on 16 September, 2020, 11:37:52 pm
Bikes need to meet the BS standard when sold in(to) the UK.
I always thought that the RH brake front was a matter of tradition, not teh law.  Surely swapping the front brake to the left wouldn't invalidate your insurance.  I would have thought a "WARNING, FRONT BRAKE LEFT" would suffice.
So I am genuinely surprised.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: philip on 16 September, 2020, 11:52:59 pm
Planet X website are able to sell you a bike with either brake configuration, although the "euro/usa style" costs extra. For example: https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CBPXPCDFOR22/planet-x-pro-carbon-disc-sram-force-22-road-bike
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: MattH on 17 September, 2020, 12:02:56 am
As a slight diversion, am I the only one who always sets their bike up with LH front brake? I've done that for decades; with modern components and frames everything is designed to be used that way.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: fuaran on 17 September, 2020, 12:27:30 am
Cycling UK article here. https://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-library/regulations/safety-regulations
And the full regulations. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/198/contents/made

There is an exemption for bikes "to the design of an individual person for use by that person in competitive events". So that could cover those Planet X road bikes.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 17 September, 2020, 07:10:27 am
I'm not even sure what Bourbon creams are! Type of biscuit?

 :o

The best of biscuits - you're missing out and must try them!

Anyway, on the subject of Rose, at least I won't have any reason to lust after this beauty any more...

(https://www.rosebikes.com/images/lfzZo-RqZ43HtpG-e6jvRNlI1KV-o621DenYFBlct3U/resize:fit:1800:1200:1/gravity:no/background:ffffff/aHR0cHM6Ly9pbWFnZXMucm9zZWJpa2VzLmRlL2dldF9pbWFnZS8_dD05N0Y5MjQ3QTM5MzUwNjUwNUM3QUI5NEZGRTQ2NUMyRA.jpeg)
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Polar Bear on 17 September, 2020, 07:28:30 am
I'm not even sure what Bourbon creams are! Type of biscuit?

Yes, usually found on the shelf next to the custard creams.

J

Although our local shop has custard creams I note that they do not have bourbon creams.  There is a fake bourbon cream biscuit on the market that is essentially a brown custard cream.  This is not a genuine bourbon cream and must never be mistaken as such.  These imposters are tacky, crude and nothing close to the real thing.

⛔  DO NOT BE TEMPTED  ⛔
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: citoyen on 17 September, 2020, 08:34:36 am
I'm not even sure what Bourbon creams are! Type of biscuit?

https://youtu.be/MHMuSA63eoA
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: farfetched on 17 September, 2020, 09:04:12 am
I live close to the German border and know quite a few people with a Rose bike, not so long ago you could configure
your own bike, at least choose different saddle/stem/wheelset etc... but they have stopped doing that, all thats left now is the
size,group and colour.  So I guess not delivering UK specific bikes was a logical step in that process.

FWIW -  More of a custard cream man myself (When i can get them)
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 17 September, 2020, 12:05:32 pm
I'm not even sure what Bourbon creams are! Type of biscuit?

Yi whit?

Bikes need to meet the BS standard when sold in(to) the UK.
I always thought that the RH brake front was a matter of tradition, not teh law.  Surely swapping the front brake to the left wouldn't invalidate your insurance.  I would have thought a "WARNING, FRONT BRAKE LEFT" would suffice.
So I am genuinely surprised.

Hmn, looks like the requirement to meet BS6102:Part1 is no longer the case, replaced with European standard...
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/198/pdfs/uksiem_20100198_en.pdf

Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 September, 2020, 12:08:18 pm
I'm not even sure what Bourbon creams are! Type of biscuit?

https://youtu.be/MHMuSA63eoA
The Garibaldi, now that's a proper biscuit. Notable lack of German names in that biscuit litany...
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 September, 2020, 12:39:11 pm
As a slight diversion, am I the only one who always sets their bike up with LH front brake? I've done that for decades; with modern components and frames everything is designed to be used that way.

Nope, that's how most of the world does it...

When I built my bike I copied how my Brompton was setup. (Brompton purchased in Amsterdam).

I hadn't actually realised there was variation in this until my tame mechanic shoved his hand into my spinning back wheel while applying the front break, and swearing at me.

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 17 September, 2020, 12:46:37 pm
The Garibaldi, now that's a proper biscuit. Notable lack of German names in that biscuit litany...

German names were disposed of in the 1910s for some reason.
The Norn Irish still call Belgian Biscuits "German Biscuits" and in some parts they have the colonial "Empire Biscuit" name.

http://traybakesandmore.com/german-biscuits
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: T42 on 17 September, 2020, 12:52:48 pm
As a slight diversion, am I the only one who always sets their bike up with LH front brake? I've done that for decades; with modern components and frames everything is designed to be used that way.

Nope, that's how most of the world does it...

When I built my bike I copied how my Brompton was setup. (Brompton purchased in Amsterdam).

I hadn't actually realised there was variation in this until my tame mechanic shoved his hand into my spinning back wheel while applying the front break, and swearing at me.

J

I didn't know either until a visiting chum borrowed a spare bike from me in 2010 and warned me afterwards "you need to get that bike seen to, they've put the brakes the wrong way round."

They're all out of line except our Bert.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 September, 2020, 01:02:57 pm
It's supposed to have its origins in rule of the road, but it doesn't follow that nowadays. At least, I'm sure I remember NZ bikes being Left Front. More to the point, there's personal and 'genre' variation, UK road racers following Left Front too (perhaps this dates from the League of Racing Cyclists – was that the name? – with their continental manners in the 1950s, as opposed to the TTers).

But bikes with coaster brake and front lever brake always have the lever on the right. As do motorcycles since the 1970s at least.

And QG's mechanic was rash to put his hand in the spokes before they'd stopped spinning.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: ElyDave on 17 September, 2020, 01:19:40 pm
I'm not even sure what Bourbon creams are! Type of biscuit?

https://youtu.be/MHMuSA63eoA
The Garibaldi, now that's a proper biscuit. Notable lack of German names in that biscuit litany...

+1 for the Garibaldi, great biscuit and a great name as well.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 17 September, 2020, 08:44:16 pm
NZ are right hand front brakes, just like Oz.
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadcode/cyclist-code/about-cycling/learning-to-ride#stopping

It was the British League of Racing Cyclists, an interesting bunch of characters. The last of them are dying out now, including a couple of my friends in the past couple of weeks.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_League_of_Racing_Cyclists
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: yoav on 19 September, 2020, 08:51:25 am
I can (sort of) see the need for standardisation of the brake layout on new bikes, but why the RH in the UK - is it just tradition or is there an actual reason for it?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 19 September, 2020, 08:53:51 am
RH-front brakes when riding on the LH side if the road mean you can control the rear brake while making hand signals. The opposite when riding on the RH side of the road. That is the reason for the brake arrangement convention.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 19 September, 2020, 08:56:50 am
I've still got the hideous green ceramic bowl they once sent me along with their gigantic catalogue. I'm still baffled by it.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 19 September, 2020, 09:15:31 am
The Rose Bowl is a thing in the USA. It was their very punny response.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 19 September, 2020, 09:34:29 am
Bit of a missed target if they are sending it to somebody in  Gloucestershire who has never heard of a minor sporting event in a far away country.

Would have been more appropriate if they had been able to work up something to do with Fred West's wife
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 19 September, 2020, 09:49:42 am
Well, now you have become a bit better educated. Onwards and upwards!

If the bowl had been made of glass, it might have been a bit more directly applicable to the UK. Rose bowl flower arrangements are a thing.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: yoav on 20 September, 2020, 07:32:47 pm
RH-front brakes when riding on the LH side if the road mean you can control the rear brake while making hand signals. The opposite when riding on the RH side of the road. That is the reason for the brake arrangement convention.

That must come from old days which advised not using the front brake in case it locked up and threw you over the bars. Similar advice was given to motorcyclists which probably led to more crashes rather than preventing them. Fortunately, this is now history and is no longer taught.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 21 December, 2020, 08:33:00 pm
Their website now has a popup

“Dear Customer,

due to the Brexit and the withdrawal from the EU domestic market without an Free Trade Agreement from the 01.01.2021, we can no longer fullfill any orders from the UK. Already ordered goods, that can be shiped until 20.12.2020 will be send out. Orders that can not be shipped until this date will be cancelled.
If your goods can not be shipped, our customer support will contact you via E-Mail. Unfortunately we feel compelled to not fulfill UK orders currently, we hopte to be able to ship to our UK customers soon again. Thank you very much for understanding and for your loyalty and support.”
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 21 December, 2020, 08:55:17 pm
That's been coming for a long time.  I'm not sure they'll ever resume sales, since the UK plan is to have Johnny Foreigner collect VAT for HMRC, and many won't fancy getting into that.  Anyway, if EU-UK post is going to be subject to customs checks, you can add another tenner to the price for the carrier's admin fee, and buying from the US no longer seems so bad.

Also, the pound is only 1.08 euro, down from 1.40 just before Brexiteers screwed the country.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: mzjo on 21 December, 2020, 10:56:26 pm
That's been coming for a long time.  I'm not sure they'll ever resume sales, since the UK plan is to have Johnny Foreigner collect VAT for HMRC, and many won't fancy getting into that.  Anyway, if EU-UK post is going to be subject to customs checks, you can add another tenner to the price for the carrier's admin fee, and buying from the US no longer seems so bad.

Also, the pound is only 1.08 euro, down from 1.40 just before Brexiteers screwed the country.

I may yet be tempted to pay for visits to my grandson by smuggling grey importing (called that because it turns you grey worrying  about it) various items of cycling kit from the continent!
Looks like you britanniques might be fairly well off with all the cheap fish you'll be eating though!
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 22 December, 2020, 07:55:01 am
That'll be all the herring, mackerel and shellfish we don't like eating anyway.  My cats will be pleased, as they like fishy food.

I bought all the Cyclus tools I needed in the last 2 years.  They are literally twice the price here.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: giropaul on 22 December, 2020, 08:31:36 am
That's been coming for a long time.  I'm not sure they'll ever resume sales, since the UK plan is to have Johnny Foreigner collect VAT for HMRC, and many won't fancy getting into that.  Anyway, if EU-UK post is going to be subject to customs checks, you can add another tenner to the price for the carrier's admin fee, and buying from the US no longer seems so bad.

Also, the pound is only 1.08 euro, down from 1.40 just before Brexiteers screwed the country.

I may yet be tempted to pay for visits to my grandson by smuggling grey importing (called that because it turns you grey worrying  about it) various items of cycling kit from the continent!
Looks like you britanniques might be fairly well off with all the cheap fish you'll be eating though!

We may be returning to the days when we went out to, say, Belgium with a decent frame with worn out parts. When it came back across the Channel somehow the bike was dripping in new Campag parts.
That, at the time, was about avoiding U.K. purchase tax.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 22 December, 2020, 08:35:34 am
Eww, Campag. Who would buy that shite these days?

 :demon:
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Polar Bear on 22 December, 2020, 08:42:05 am
That's been coming for a long time.  I'm not sure they'll ever resume sales, since the UK plan is to have Johnny Foreigner collect VAT for HMRC, and many won't fancy getting into that.  Anyway, if EU-UK post is going to be subject to customs checks, you can add another tenner to the price for the carrier's admin fee, and buying from the US no longer seems so bad.

Also, the pound is only 1.08 euro, down from 1.40 just before Brexiteers screwed the country.

I may yet be tempted to pay for visits to my grandson by smuggling grey importing (called that because it turns you grey worrying  about it) various items of cycling kit from the continent!
Looks like you britanniques might be fairly well off with all the cheap fish you'll be eating though!

Except of course those of us like myself with a seafood allergy.   :facepalm:

I'll have to forego nice southern European veg though and settle for turnips and tatties.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: citoyen on 22 December, 2020, 12:32:52 pm
I'll have to forego nice southern European veg though and settle for turnips and tatties.

It's OK - global warming means it won't be long before we can grow coconuts and mangoes in Tyneside.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 22 December, 2020, 01:57:51 pm
I'll have to forego nice southern European veg though and settle for turnips and tatties.

It's OK - global warming means it won't be long before we can grow coconuts and mangoes in Tyneside.  :thumbsup:

If you’ve ever been for a night out in Tyneside, you will know that global warming hit the area decades ago.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 December, 2020, 08:37:21 pm
Canyon too:
Quote
Canyon, the direct-to-consumer bike brand based in Germany, has paused shipments(link is external) to customers in Great Britain and has stopped accepting orders entirely from those in Northern Ireland, citing uncertainty caused by Brexit. The company, headquartered in Koblenz, says that the move is a temporary one and insists that it has been taken “to avoid delays to your orders,” although in practice it seems that is exactly what will happen.
https://road.cc/content/news/canyon-halts-shipments-uk-customers-blaming-brexit-279667
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: sojournermike on 23 December, 2020, 03:58:55 pm
Cicli Corsa have just emailed me to say that they are happy to charge me without the vat on the basis that expected delivery will be after Brexit is certain and I can pay the vat in the UK.

Of course, that presumes that we can get anything into the UK in April and that Covid has left us well alone... neither of which is very certain
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 December, 2020, 01:03:03 pm
Quote
Unfortunately, we will not be able to send parcels to the UK from mid December 2020 onward. Quite apart from uncertainty surrounding the shipping cost, taxation etc. after that time, there is also a problem caused by the British government deciding to impose a unique taxation regime which will require every company in the world in every country in the world outside the UK which exports to the UK to apply and collect British taxes on behalf of the British government. For providing this service they intend to charge a fee to every company in the world in every country in the world which exports to the UK. Clearly this is ludicrous for one country, but imagine if every country in the world had the same idea. If every country decided to behave in the same way then we would have to pay 195 fees every year, keep up with the changes in taxation law for 195 different countries, keep accounts on behalf of 195 different countries and submit payments to 195 tax offices in 195 different countries, and jump through whatever hoops were required to prove that we were doing all of this honestly and without any error.

Therefore from mid December 2020 onward we ship to every country in the world... except the UK.
https://www.dutchbikebits.com/shipping
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hubner on 30 December, 2020, 01:40:53 pm
Quote
Unfortunately, we will not be able to send parcels to the UK from mid December 2020 onward. Quite apart from uncertainty surrounding the shipping cost, taxation etc. after that time, there is also a problem caused by the British government deciding to impose a unique taxation regime which will require every company in the world in every country in the world outside the UK which exports to the UK to apply and collect British taxes on behalf of the British government. For providing this service they intend to charge a fee to every company in the world in every country in the world which exports to the UK. Clearly this is ludicrous for one country, but imagine if every country in the world had the same idea. If every country decided to behave in the same way then we would have to pay 195 fees every year, keep up with the changes in taxation law for 195 different countries, keep accounts on behalf of 195 different countries and submit payments to 195 tax offices in 195 different countries, and jump through whatever hoops were required to prove that we were doing all of this honestly and without any error.

Therefore from mid December 2020 onward we ship to every country in the world... except the UK.
https://www.dutchbikebits.com/shipping

I thought it was an EU law that the UK has decided to keep after 31 Dec 2020. It's actually:

Quote
the EU deciding to impose a unique taxation regime which will require every company in the world outside the EU which exports to the EU to apply and collect EU taxes (VAT and duties) on behalf of EU governments. For providing this service they intend to charge a fee to every company outside the EU which exports to the EU.

In addition the exemptions for low cost goods were scraped, £19 and £37 for commercial products and gifts respectively IIRC.

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/modernising-vat-cross-border-ecommerce_en

Quote
the (non-EU) seller will charge and collect the VAT at the point of sale to EU customers and declare and pay that VAT globally to the Member State of identification in the OSS (One Stop Shop). These goods will then benefit from a VAT exemption upon importation, allowing a fast release at customs.

The introduction of the import scheme goes hand in hand with the abolition of the current VAT exemption for goods in small consignment of a value of up to EUR 22. This is also in line with the commitment to apply the destination principle for VAT.

    Where the import OSS is not used, a second simplification mechanism will be available for imports. Import VAT will be collected from customers by the customs declarant (e.g. postal operator, courier firm, customs agents) which will pay it to the customs authorities via a monthly payment.

Who will benefit from this proposal?

    Businesses will benefit from a substantial reduction in cross-border VAT compliance costs. This will facilitate greater cross-border trade.
    EU Businesses will be able to compete on equal footing with non-EU businesses that are not charging VAT.
    Member States will gain through an increase in VAT revenues of EUR 7 billion annually.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rafletcher on 30 December, 2020, 01:56:58 pm
Hmm, I turned up this - which appears to apply to goods provided to individuals (as opposed to businesses) and seems very like the system we use for personal imports from the US.

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/individuals/buying-goods-services-online-personal-use/buying-goods/buying-goods-online-coming-from-a-noneu-union-country_en
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hubner on 30 December, 2020, 02:07:50 pm
Hmm, I turned up this - which appears to apply to goods provided to individuals (as opposed to businesses) and seems very like the system we use for personal imports from the US.

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/individuals/buying-goods-services-online-personal-use/buying-goods/buying-goods-online-coming-from-a-noneu-union-country_en

That's current law.

It's different after 1 July 2021 (originally 1 Jan 2021, delayed because of covid).



Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rafletcher on 30 December, 2020, 04:06:57 pm
Yeah, QG just posted that in another thread. But hey, as she says, for the whole of the EU it’ll be worth if for a business to comply. For the small UK market, meh, they’ll survive without it. Seems like another stupid tit-for-tat UK response. I don’t think the EU are likely to go back on their decision and make exceptions for us. Meanwhile I and others will likely lose access to Bike24 etc. We’ll have to wait and see
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: MartinC on 31 December, 2020, 12:55:56 pm
To be fair and AFAIUI it's just because as we we exit in our unplanned (and poorly scrutinised) but very lengthy fashion we haven't got round to inventing our own laws but have just inherited a set and crossed out EU and put UK instead.  As you say, what probably works well for both parties as a portal to a large trading bloc is fairly bizarre for a tin pot banana republic.  I'm not going to hold my breath until it's changed though.  I suspect there are many more of these fukups* to emerge yet.

*Failed UK Unintended Planning Scenarios
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hatler on 31 December, 2020, 01:52:39 pm
To be fair and AFAIUI it's just because as we we exit in our unplanned (and poorly scrutinised) but very lengthy fashion we haven't got round to inventing our own laws but have just inherited a set and crossed out EU and put UK instead.  As you say, what probably works well for both parties as a portal to a large trading bloc is fairly bizarre for a tin pot banana republic.  I'm not going to hold my breath until it's changed though.  I suspect there are many more of these fukups* to emerge yet.

*Failed UK Unintended Planning Scenarios
About 1200 pages' worth I expect.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 03 January, 2021, 07:16:12 am
Brooks too (temporarily, one would assume)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2021/01/02/brexit-halts-sales-of-brooks-bicycle-saddles-made-in-england/?fbclid=IwAR2HQ_sXD7jlsBr3QfPILN9qxwWdhPeHY5a9kBydDxl6RKHWBdhW-d5KgDQ&sh=25995ddd5bbd
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 03 January, 2021, 08:20:51 am
Yeah, QG just posted that in another thread. But hey, as she says, for the whole of the EU it’ll be worth if for a business to comply. For the small UK market, meh, they’ll survive without it. Seems like another stupid tit-for-tat UK response. I don’t think the EU are likely to go back on their decision and make exceptions for us. Meanwhile I and others will likely lose access to Bike24 etc. We’ll have to wait and see
“For the whole of the EU it will be worth it” ? You make it sound like a homogeneous block. Each country in the EU has a different VAT rate and different exemptions to apply, so you need to work out how much VAT to charge for children’s clothes going to Estonia or books going to Belgium. For example Shimano suppling bike parts to the U.K. that would be the case whether we were in or out of the EU
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 03 January, 2021, 10:10:27 am
Yeah, QG just posted that in another thread. But hey, as she says, for the whole of the EU it’ll be worth if for a business to comply. For the small UK market, meh, they’ll survive without it. Seems like another stupid tit-for-tat UK response. I don’t think the EU are likely to go back on their decision and make exceptions for us. Meanwhile I and others will likely lose access to Bike24 etc. We’ll have to wait and see
“For the whole of the EU it will be worth it” ? You make it sound like a homogeneous block. Each country in the EU has a different VAT rate and different exemptions to apply, so you need to work out how much VAT to charge for children’s clothes going to Estonia or books going to Belgium. For example Shimano suppling bike parts to the U.K. that would be the case whether we were in or out of the EU

Here it what I originally wrote:

https://twitter.com/quixoticgeek/status/1319205215271292930

It's in a twitter thread cos I've not yet got around to putting it on a blog post.

Yes you have to work out what the VAT rate is for the country you are selling to. *BUT* you only have one point of contact to deal with. The One Stop Shop. That makes it a lot simpler. Sure you're dealing with 27 different countries worth of vat rates, but he reality is they don't change very often, and it's relatively easy to set up in what ever ecommerce system you're using. You collect it all, you report it all via the single OSS. Done.

It all comes down to scale. UK is tiny. Global or not, it's a small market. If you're a small maker of bespoke bike saddles, and you sell 1000 a year, of which 20 go to the UK. It's just not worth the hassle of jumping through the hoops. But as the EU is about 7 time bigger than the UK, you only have to sell maybe 50 of them to the EU as a whole and it's worth the hoop jumping.

If you sell through an online market place like aliexpress, ebay, or amazon, then it should do all that magic for you, and you never need worry. It's only if you are your own online market place, say bespoke-aussie-saddles.com.au. that you have to do it yourself. At least for the EU.

It's not that HMRC is applying a stupid rule. It's that HMRC is applying a rule that on the scale of the UK does not work financially for many, but is there because of legacy of being in the EU.

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 03 January, 2021, 10:47:45 am
The value U.K. bike market is more than the combined bike market of the 23 smallest EU countries. There will be inevitable teething problems but I think they will be short term.

Looking at shimano which by value is 80% of worldwide bike components, after the EU the U.K. is the second biggest market just pipping the US.  (Though the combined sales to all Asian and pacific countries exceeds the eu, they are all separate markets).

It may be there will be some manufacturers who decide to sell exclusively to the eu and not the rest of the world, but I find it unlikely.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 03 January, 2021, 02:35:04 pm
The value U.K. bike market is more than the combined bike market of the 23 smallest EU countries. There will be inevitable teething problems but I think they will be short term.

Looking at shimano which by value is 80% of worldwide bike components, after the EU the U.K. is the second biggest market just pipping the US.  (Though the combined sales to all Asian and pacific countries exceeds the eu, they are all separate markets).

It may be there will be some manufacturers who decide to sell exclusively to the eu and not the rest of the world, but I find it unlikely.

Thing is, this isn't going to be a problem for Shimano, or Campag, or any big name. The market in the UK is big, they are big players, *AND* they do not sell direct to the consumer. If you sell through a distributor, then chances are that the £135 quid or whatever HMRC are charging, is not going to be a major hurdle. Annoying yes, but bigger than the total value of your sales to the UK? no.

The new rules are awkward for anyone who sells direct to the consumer, and has a small turnover. Such as [url]https://www.rusjan.eu/?_=_[/img] bespoke bikpacking bags. A 13 saddle bag is €220. If you are only making one sale to the UK per year, then paying £135 to register with HMRC is not worth it. How many do you have to sell per year to make it worth while?

Rose obviously think they do not sell enough to the UK to make it worth swallowing these costs. No doubt other companies have reached the same conclusion.

The target of these new rules from an EU point of view was to get a slice of the pie from all that small cheap stuff we buy from aliexpress and the like. Unfortunately they have kinda shot the smaller businesses at the same time. The simple solution for many of these small sellers for selling to the EU will be to list the item on ebay or amazon, and the online market place will do everything for them, they print the label that ebay/amazon etc... give them, job done.

The rule were written for a trading block of half a billion rich people. They do not scale to 65 million people who's wealth is dropping...

Oh, and if you think this is all complicated and confusing now.

From 16th of July 2021, the EU is going to change the rules about how the CE mark works. The basic principle being that all good that require a CE mark, will also require a registered responsible agent that is permanently within the EU. The idea being that even if you make your bike lights in china, and sell direct to consumers within the EU, you will be required to have someone within the EU who is legally responsible for the accreditation of the CE marked item. Not an issue if you're a manufacturer in China, and you sell your products to Farnell, who then sell them to the end user, Farnell becomes that responsible party. But if you are say an Australian bike light manufacturer, and you sell direct to EU consumers, you have to have an agent resident within the EU to act on your behalf.

Oh, and as for what the fuck the UK is doing with it's alternative to a CE mark... and whether anyone can be arsed faffing about jumping through those hoops in addition to the hoops necessary for the CE marking... only time will tell...

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 03 January, 2021, 03:33:17 pm
Return of the Kitemark?

All the one-item per year sellers will be shoved on to platforms: ebay, Amazon, Ali, etc.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rafletcher on 03 January, 2021, 03:37:16 pm
UK will align with CE.  Even now, when we sell to no EU countries (we as in the company I work for) most want the assurance that a CE mark implies, in the absence of anything else, in terms of quality assurance and quality control. The major exception is the USA.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: giropaul on 03 January, 2021, 03:37:30 pm
Connected, if not entirely, I notice that Planet X will not be taking non-U.K. orders, at least at the moment, citing chaos and significant holdups with parcel movements across the U.K./ EU borders.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 03 January, 2021, 03:52:19 pm
I wonder who's delivering to Northern Ireland right now?
Title: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 03 January, 2021, 04:07:36 pm
The value U.K. bike market is more than the combined bike market of the 23 smallest EU countries. There will be inevitable teething problems but I think they will be short term.

Looking at shimano which by value is 80% of worldwide bike components, after the EU the U.K. is the second biggest market just pipping the US.  (Though the combined sales to all Asian and pacific countries exceeds the eu, they are all separate markets).

It may be there will be some manufacturers who decide to sell exclusively to the eu and not the rest of the world, but I find it unlikely.

Thing is, this isn't going to be a problem for Shimano, or Campag, or any big name. The market in the UK is big, they are big players, *AND* they do not sell direct to the consumer. If you sell through a distributor, then chances are that the £135 quid or whatever HMRC are charging, is not going to be a major hurdle. Annoying yes, but bigger than the total value of your sales to the UK? no.

The new rules are awkward for anyone who sells direct to the consumer, and has a small turnover. Such as [url]https://www.rusjan.eu/?_=_[/img] bespoke bikpacking bags. A 13 saddle bag is €220. If you are only making one sale to the UK per year, then paying £135 to register with HMRC is not worth it. How many do you have to sell per year to make it worth while?

Rose obviously think they do not sell enough to the UK to make it worth swallowing these costs. No doubt other companies have reached the same conclusion.

The target of these new rules from an EU point of view was to get a slice of the pie from all that small cheap stuff we buy from aliexpress and the like. Unfortunately they have kinda shot the smaller businesses at the same time. The simple solution for many of these small sellers for selling to the EU will be to list the item on ebay or amazon, and the online market place will do everything for them, they print the label that ebay/amazon etc... give them, job done.

The rule were written for a trading block of half a billion rich people. They do not scale to 65 million people who's wealth is dropping...

Oh, and if you think this is all complicated and confusing now.

From 16th of July 2021, the EU is going to change the rules about how the CE mark works. The basic principle being that all good that require a CE mark, will also require a registered responsible agent that is permanently within the EU. The idea being that even if you make your bike lights in china, and sell direct to consumers within the EU, you will be required to have someone within the EU who is legally responsible for the accreditation of the CE marked item. Not an issue if you're a manufacturer in China, and you sell your products to Farnell, who then sell them to the end user, Farnell becomes that responsible party. But if you are say an Australian bike light manufacturer, and you sell direct to EU consumers, you have to have an agent resident within the EU to act on your behalf.

Oh, and as for what the fuck the UK is doing with it's alternative to a CE mark... and whether anyone can be arsed faffing about jumping through those hoops in addition to the hoops necessary for the CE marking... only time will tell...

J
It is free to register for vat. £135 is the value of goods it comes in at. The HMRC aren’t charging anyone. The £1000 a year is what some accountant has quoted for filling in two boxes on an electronic form.

Edit: That was poorly written. It is for small value goods below £135 that currently sneak through. For orders over £135 it is dealt with by customs.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 03 January, 2021, 04:23:27 pm
Might as well just buy stuff from China.  It sneaks through as a $5 trade sample most of the time anyway. 
Title: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 03 January, 2021, 04:25:25 pm
Might as well just buy stuff from China.  It sneaks through as a $5 trade sample most of the time anyway.
Not anymore. Low value consignent relief on imports of less than £15 was abolished on the 1st jan.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: ppg on 03 January, 2021, 04:55:30 pm
Oh, and as for what the fuck the UK is doing with it's alternative to a CE mark... and whether anyone can be arsed faffing about jumping through those hoops in addition to the hoops necessary for the CE marking... only time will tell...
J
https://www.technologyinternational.co.uk/ukca-mark-regulations
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-the-ukca-marking

I'm confident it will be policed and enforced as vigorously as current CE regulations  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: sojournermike on 03 January, 2021, 05:12:23 pm
Might as well just buy stuff from China.  It sneaks through as a $5 trade sample most of the time anyway.
Not anymore. Low value consignent relief on imports of less than £15 was abolished on the 1st jan.

Yep, I paid vat on a pair of rims recently. It wasn't painful, apart from the charge to collect it by the carrier
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Polar Bear on 03 January, 2021, 05:15:58 pm
I read somewhere today that due to brexit Brooks are temporarily at least unable to import back into the UK for sale saddles made here in Smethwick.  Seems daft as all saddles are exported to Italy after manufacture for distribution on including back to the UK. 

Brexit bonus I guess.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 03 January, 2021, 05:22:00 pm
I read somewhere today that due to brexit Brooks are temporarily at least unable to import back into the UK for sale saddles made here in Smethwick.  Seems daft as all saddles are exported to Italy after manufacture for distribution on including back to the UK. 

Brexit bonus I guess.
It is brooks Italian owner that is not yet set up for direct sales to consumers in the U.K. I am sure they will be in a couple of weeks, it was all a bit last minute. That said I can’t see a real rush as very few people purchase at rrp directly from brooks when they are cheaper elsewhere.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: zigzag on 04 January, 2021, 01:26:23 pm
a bit off-topic but ebay uk charges 20% extra (vat) if you buy stuff from foreign (or is it only the eu?) sellers
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 04 January, 2021, 01:47:39 pm
a bit off-topic but ebay uk charges 20% extra (vat) if you buy stuff from foreign (or is it only the eu?) sellers

That is correct behavior. Ebay is the Online Market Place, and it collects the vat, and hands it to HMRC. The seller just needs to make sure to put that on the paperwork, so that you don't get charged twice.

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hubner on 04 January, 2021, 02:09:21 pm
What if the Ebay seller is outside the UK (registered outside the UK and selling on Ebay UK in Sterling) but the item's actually already in the UK, ie the item is sent from a UK warehouse?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 04 January, 2021, 02:26:33 pm
What if the Ebay seller is outside the UK (registered outside the UK and selling on Ebay UK in Sterling) but the item's actually already in the UK, ie the item is sent from a UK warehouse?
From HMRC:
Goods that are in the UK at the point of sale

Importing goods to sell through online marketplaces
The overseas seller will remain liable for any import VAT and Customs Duty when the goods are first imported into the UK.

When the goods are sold to the customer, the overseas seller will be considered to have made a zero-rated supply of the goods to the online marketplace. The overseas supplier does not have to issue invoices to the online marketplace for supplies that are considered to be zero-rated.

UK VAT will be charged at the point of sale.

The online marketplace will be liable to account for the VAT on the sales made through its marketplace, unless the goods are for a business customer who gives them their UK VAT registration number.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 04 January, 2021, 03:39:13 pm


BBC now reporting on it...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55530721

Took em long enough...

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rafletcher on 04 January, 2021, 03:48:37 pm
It'll vary by business of course. I buy pet food online, from a Netherland based company. They emailed me  a while ago, confirming that they would continue to supply the UK, from their Coventry distribution centre. I just checked their (.co.uk) website and apart from a warning about delays, it still seems active. I haven't tried an order, I stocked up a few weeks ago.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hubner on 04 January, 2021, 04:02:31 pm


BBC now reporting on it...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55530721

Took em long enough...

J

And of course doesn't mention that it's EU law that the UK and EU has decided to keep.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 04 January, 2021, 04:18:59 pm
It'll vary by business of course. I buy pet food online, from a Netherland based company. They emailed me  a while ago, confirming that they would continue to supply the UK, from their Coventry distribution centre. I just checked their (.co.uk) website and apart from a warning about delays, it still seems active. I haven't tried an order, I stocked up a few weeks ago.

They have a distribution centre within the UK. Therefore, while you are buying from a Dutch company, the products are fulfilled in the UK. Thus makes no difference, and the issues with them having issues with getting stock to that facility are not yours. They are abstracted away.

That is a different situation than if the Dutch company where sending it from a warehouse in Almere...

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 04 January, 2021, 04:19:52 pm


BBC now reporting on it...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55530721

Took em long enough...

J
Good to see it is quoting nonsense

"For providing this service, [HMRC] intend to charge a fee to every company in the world in every country in the world which exports to the UK," said Dutch Bike Bits on its website.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hubner on 04 January, 2021, 04:31:51 pm


BBC now reporting on it...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55530721

Took em long enough...

J
Good to see it is quoting nonsense

"For providing this service, [HMRC] intend to charge a fee to every company in the world in every country in the world which exports to the UK," said Dutch Bike Bits on its website.

The BBC is quite subtle in its bias.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 04 January, 2021, 04:36:47 pm


BBC now reporting on it...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55530721

Took em long enough...

J
Good to see it is quoting nonsense

"For providing this service, [HMRC] intend to charge a fee to every company in the world in every country in the world which exports to the UK," said Dutch Bike Bits on its website.
No, I'm pretty sure that's correct. It's not just EU to UK, it applies worldwide (and as someone said a few posts up there, it was originally designed as Whole World to EU – and probably biased, deliberately or not, towards those Dutch Pet Food situations, ie wholesale, where it will actually work).
Title: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 04 January, 2021, 04:46:24 pm


BBC now reporting on it...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55530721

Took em long enough...

J
Good to see it is quoting nonsense

"For providing this service, [HMRC] intend to charge a fee to every company in the world in every country in the world which exports to the UK," said Dutch Bike Bits on its website.
No, I'm pretty sure that's correct. It's not just EU to UK, it applies worldwide (and as someone said a few posts up there, it was originally designed as Whole World to EU – and probably biased, deliberately or not, towards those Dutch Pet Food situations, ie wholesale, where it will actually work).
The HMRC aren’t charging any fee. You have charge customers VAT and hand that tax you collect to the HMRC. That is not a fee. You will need to send in a VAT return. To do that you might need software which you might have to pay for.

Edit: it won’t affect wholesale. It is for transactions below £135.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Ashaman42 on 04 January, 2021, 04:47:38 pm
I thought there was a registration fee?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hubner on 04 January, 2021, 05:04:52 pm
What if the Ebay seller is outside the UK (registered outside the UK and selling on Ebay UK in Sterling) but the item's actually already in the UK, ie the item is sent from a UK warehouse?

To answer myself, I was thinking of dropshippers where the seller doesn't have any stock and uses a third party which sends the goods to the buyer.

I just checked one item and it's gone up by 20%, and it's sent from the UK.

I think it doesn't matter if the item is in the UK or not, as the listing states the item location as China.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 04 January, 2021, 05:13:25 pm
I thought there was a registration fee?
To register for an EORI https://www.gov.uk/eori
To register for VAT https://www.gov.uk/vat-registration/how-to-register

If you are being asked to pay a fee you probably aren’t on gov.uk
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 04 January, 2021, 05:14:47 pm
What if the Ebay seller is outside the UK (registered outside the UK and selling on Ebay UK in Sterling) but the item's actually already in the UK, ie the item is sent from a UK warehouse?

To answer myself, I was thinking of dropshippers where the seller doesn't have any stock and uses a third party which sends the goods to the buyer.

I just checked one item and it's gone up by 20%, and it's sent from the UK.

I think it doesn't matter if the item is in the UK or not, as the listing states the item location as China.
What was the value of the item ?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 04 January, 2021, 05:26:13 pm
a bit off-topic but ebay uk charges 20% extra (vat) if you buy stuff from foreign (or is it only the eu?) sellers
Yes and no.  If the seller follows latest eBay advice and lists the gross price and the VAT rate, you should pay about the same (VAT is 19% in Germany).  You shouldn't pay German and UK VAT but you will if the seller CBA to do it properly.

20% more for countries that never charged VAT, though.  Bit cheeky as VAT is supposed to be a tax on profit (value added) but no value was added in the UK.  Still, someone has to pay for all this furlough stuff  ;D

Question: how does HMRC know VAT has been collected and paid by eBay/Amazon when a mysterious package turns up at the airport?  You don't want to pay VAT at PoS and still get shafted by RM's admin charge.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: zigzag on 04 January, 2021, 05:47:00 pm
a bit off-topic but ebay uk charges 20% extra (vat) if you buy stuff from foreign (or is it only the eu?) sellers
Yes and no.  If the seller follows latest eBay advice and lists the gross price and the VAT rate, you should pay about the same (VAT is 19% in Germany).  You shouldn't pay German and UK VAT but you will if the seller CBA to do it properly.

20% more for countries that never charged VAT, though.  Bit cheeky as VAT is supposed to be a tax on profit (value added) but no value was added in the UK.  Still, someone has to pay for all this furlough stuff  ;D

Question: how does HMRC know VAT has been collected and paid by eBay/Amazon when a mysterious package turns up at the airport?  You don't want to pay VAT at PoS and still get shafted by RM's admin charge.

i've also heard some unhappy noises online about vat on aliexpress purchases (haven't used that platform myself, yet). suddenly cheap tat is less cheap goods became more expensive without any value added, but i think this new vat law is eu-wide, so can't blame brexit for this.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hubner on 04 January, 2021, 05:47:55 pm
What if the Ebay seller is outside the UK (registered outside the UK and selling on Ebay UK in Sterling) but the item's actually already in the UK, ie the item is sent from a UK warehouse?

To answer myself, I was thinking of dropshippers where the seller doesn't have any stock and uses a third party which sends the goods to the buyer.

I just checked one item and it's gone up by 20%, and it's sent from the UK.

I think it doesn't matter if the item is in the UK or not, as the listing states the item location as China.
What was the value of the item ?

Was about £3.80, now about £4.40, inc postage.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 04 January, 2021, 06:35:07 pm
We're not talking about importing but buying goods located abroad. It's been reported in several places that there is a fee for foreign sellers to register with HMRC for VAT. And it doesn't apply to anything over £135 – HMRC will collect it themselves! – nor to selling via Ebay, Amazon, Redbubble, Aliexpress, Etsy, Allegro and other online shopping platforms.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hubner on 04 January, 2021, 06:49:24 pm
We're not talking about importing but buying goods located abroad. It's been reported in several places that there is a fee for foreign sellers to register with HMRC for VAT. And it doesn't apply to anything over £135 – HMRC will collect it themselves! – nor to selling via Ebay, Amazon, Redbubble, Aliexpress, Etsy, Allegro and other online shopping platforms.

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/modernising-vat-cross-border-ecommerce_en

Quote
Modernising VAT for cross-border e-commerce
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On 30 September 2020, the Commission published Explanatory Notes on the new VAT e-commerce rules. They contain extensive explanations and clarifications on these new rules including practical examples on how to apply the rules if you are a supplier or an electronic interface (e.g. marketplace, platform) involved in e-commerce transactions. These explanatory notes are meant to help online businesses and in particular SMEs to understand their VAT obligations arising from cross-border supplies to consumers in the EU.

These Explanatory Notes are now available in all official EU languages, as well as in Chinese and Japanese. The Explanatory Notes will be accompanied by the update of the Guide to the One Stop Shop. The Guidance for Member States and Trade concerning the importation and exportation of low value consignments is published too.

Due to the practical difficulties created by the measures taken to contain the coronavirus pandemic, the application of the new VAT e-commerce rules is postponed by six months. Thus, the rules will apply as of 1 July 2021 instead of 1 January 2021, giving Member States and businesses additional time to prepare.

The European Commission aims at simplifying VAT obligations for companies carrying out cross-border sales of goods or services (mainly online) to final consumers and to ensure that VAT on such supplies is paid correctly to the Member State in which the supply takes place, in line with the principle of taxation in the Member State of destination.

The Commission proposed EU legislation in this area in two stages. The first measures entered into force in 2015 and covered telecommunications, broadcasting and electronic services to consumers. The second package of measures was adopted by the Council in December 2017 and extended the simplification to distance sales of goods as well as to any type of cross-border service supplied to final customers taking place in the EU. The latter measures, also referred to as ‘the VAT e-commerce package’ are set to apply from 1 July 2021.   

1. Mini One Stop Shop (MOSS)

Since 2015, a simplified system is in place to declare and pay VAT on business-to-consumer (B2C) supplies of telecommunications, broadcasting and electronic (TBE) services in the EU. Detailed information on the functioning of MOSS is available on the MOSS portal.

2. The VAT e-commerce package

The VAT e-commerce package was one of the priorities under the Digital Single Market Strategy.

On 5 December 2017, the Council adopted the VAT e-commerce package consisting of:

    Council Directive (EU) 2017/2455
    Council Regulation (EU) 2017/2454
    Council Implementing Regulation (EU) 2017/2459

On 21 November 2019, the Council adopted the implementing measures for VAT e-commerce package consisting of:

    Council Directive (EU) 2019/1995
    Council Implementing Regulation (EU) 2019/2026

On 12 February 2020, the Commission adopted the Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) 2020/194 laying down details on the working of the VAT One Stop Shop.

Due to the practical difficulties created by the measures taken to contain the coronavirus pandemic, the following acts were adopted postponing the application of the VAT e-commerce package to 1 July 2021:

    Council Decision (EU) 2020/1109
    Council Regulation (EU) 2020/1108
    Council Implementing Regulation (EU) 2020/1112
    Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) 2020/1318 

 

    Read the Press Release
    Q&A on VAT for e-commerce
    Commission Proposal COM(2016)757
    Commission Proposal COM(2018) 819
    Commission Proposal COM(2018) 821
    Impact Assessment
    Read the Factsheet for the proposal

Overview of the package

The VAT e-commerce package will facilitate cross-border trade, combat VAT fraud and ensure fair competition for EU businesses. The new rules include:

    Improvements of the current MOSS
    Special provisions applicable to supplies of goods facilitated by electronic interfaces
    Extension of the scope of the MOSS, turning it into a One Stop Shop (OSS), to:
        B2C supplies of services other than TBE services
        Intra-EU distance sales of goods
        Certain domestic supplies of goods facilitated by electronic interfaces
        Distance sales of goods imported from third countries and third territories in consignments of an intrinsic value of maximum EUR 150

The VAT e-commerce package and implementation calendar

The VAT e-commerce package will be implemented gradually. Below is an overview of the key-dates:
In 2019

(see details on the MOSS portal)

    Introduction of two thresholds to simplify VAT obligations for microbusinesses and SMEs. First, an annual turnover threshold of EUR 10 000 for intra-EU cross-border supplies of telecommunications, broadcasting and electronic (TBE) services. Up to EUR 10 000 TBE supplies remain subject to the VAT rules of the Member State of the supplier. Second, an annual turnover threshold of EUR 100 000 up to which the vendor must only keep one piece of evidence (instead of two) to identify the Member State of the customer.
    For invoicing, the rules of the EU country of identification of the supplier will be applicable instead of the rules of the Member States of consumption (i.e. of the customer).
    Close a gap in the current MOSS: a business not established in the EU but having a VAT registration in the EU (e.g. for occasional transactions) can make use of the non-Union scheme (i.e. the scheme for taxable persons not established in the EU).
    Some improvements of the current MOSS enter into force on 1 January 2019, in particular those not having any IT impact.

In 2021

The extension of the MOSS and the special provisions concerning the obligations of electronic interfaces will enter into force on 1 July 2021 as IT systems need to be adapted or developed.

    Businesses operating electronic interfaces such as marketplaces or platforms will, in certain situations, be deemed for VAT purposes to be the supplier of goods sold to customers in the EU by companies using the marketplace or platform. Consequently, they will have to collect and pay the VAT on these sales.
    Building on the success of the MOSS for TBE services, this concept will be extended and turned into a OSS:
        The non-Union scheme for supplies of TBE services by taxable persons not established in the EU will be extended to all types of cross-border services to final consumers in the EU;
        The Union scheme for intra-EU supplies of TBE services will be extended to all types of B2C services as well as to intra-EU distance sales of goods and certain domestic supplies facilitated by electronic interfaces. The extension to intra-EU distance sales of goods goes hand in hand with the abolition of the current distance sales threshold, in line with the commitment to apply the destination principle for VAT;
        An import scheme will be created covering distance sales of goods imported from third countries or territories to customers in the EU up to a value of EUR 150.

Unlike today, when the import scheme is used, the seller will charge and collect the VAT at the point of sale to EU customers and declare and pay that VAT globally to the Member State of identification in the OSS. These goods will then benefit from a VAT exemption upon importation, allowing a fast release at customs.

The introduction of the import scheme goes hand in hand with the abolition of the current VAT exemption for goods in small consignment of a value of up to EUR 22. This is also in line with the commitment to apply the destination principle for VAT.

    Where the import OSS is not used, a second simplification mechanism will be available for imports. Import VAT will be collected from customers by the customs declarant (e.g. postal operator, courier firm, customs agents) which will pay it to the customs authorities via a monthly payment.

Who will benefit from this proposal?

    Businesses will benefit from a substantial reduction in cross-border VAT compliance costs. This will facilitate greater cross-border trade.
    EU Businesses will be able to compete on equal footing with non-EU businesses that are not charging VAT.
    Member States will gain through an increase in VAT revenues of EUR 7 billion annually.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 04 January, 2021, 07:01:06 pm
What if the Ebay seller is outside the UK (registered outside the UK and selling on Ebay UK in Sterling) but the item's actually already in the UK, ie the item is sent from a UK warehouse?

To answer myself, I was thinking of dropshippers where the seller doesn't have any stock and uses a third party which sends the goods to the buyer.

I just checked one item and it's gone up by 20%, and it's sent from the UK.

I think it doesn't matter if the item is in the UK or not, as the listing states the item location as China.
What was the value of the item ?

Was about £3.80, now about £4.40, inc postage.
Ah, you have been caught by the low value consignment exemption being abolished. There was until 1st of jan an exemption of vat for imports worth less than £15 (22 euros). This would have happened with or without brexit but not until July when the eu rule comes in.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 04 January, 2021, 07:09:40 pm
We're not talking about importing but buying goods located abroad. It's been reported in several places that there is a fee for foreign sellers to register with HMRC for VAT. And it doesn't apply to anything over £135 – HMRC will collect it themselves! – nor to selling via Ebay, Amazon, Redbubble, Aliexpress, Etsy, Allegro and other online shopping platforms.
Buying goods located abroad and shipping them into this country is importing. It may well have been reported in several places there is a fee for foreign sellers to register for vat. Perhaps someone should tell the HMRC because they seem to not realise. I suspect someone has been quoted a fee by their accountant for doing a 2 minute job. I provided the links above for anyone foreign or otherwise to do it for themselves.

You are correct it is for low value goods (below £135) and if going through a platform the platform will do the work for you and pay the vat to HMRC.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: perpetual dan on 04 January, 2021, 07:36:50 pm
Many companies will prefer to pay an accountant. I’ve never been vat registered, but the rest of my interactions with HMRC suggest that it’ll be quite a lot of work if you’re not already registered and familiar with the process, doubly so with English as a second language. If I was in the habit of doing my own books and tax returns, I might not want the extra work of doing that for a second country.

Going via another site will, similarly, incur a charge.
I suppose the shop will also need to record what has been sold to where, gathering new information at the point of sale (things rings a bell with the vat moss thing).

If I was running a business which exported a bit to the UK, but wasn’t my bread and butter, I’d have looked at the negotiations running closer and closer to Christmas, nothing much crossing to plague island, and to my likely low sales in January, and thought “fuck it”. I’d worry about this later once the rules are settled, the border process moving on, costs of shipping adjusted for the delays, and the ins and outs of handling the tax well known. It might even be that the ongoing accountant costs involve putting prices up, or effort compared to profit puts me off.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hubner on 04 January, 2021, 08:23:58 pm
I've read somewhere else (random person) who claims the new EU VAT scheme is voluntary but the UK one is mandatory.

But no mention of "voluntary":

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/modernising-vat-cross-border-ecommerce_en
Quote
    An import scheme will be created covering distance sales of goods imported from third countries or territories to customers in the EU up to a value of EUR 150.

Unlike today, when the import scheme is used, the seller will charge and collect the VAT at the point of sale to EU customers and declare and pay that VAT globally to the Member State of identification in the One Stop Shop (OSS). These goods will then benefit from a VAT exemption upon importation, allowing a fast release at customs.

The introduction of the import scheme goes hand in hand with the abolition of the current VAT exemption for goods in small consignment of a value of up to EUR 22. This is also in line with the commitment to apply the destination principle for VAT.

    Where the import OSS is not used, a second simplification mechanism will be available for imports. Import VAT will be collected from customers by the customs declarant (e.g. postal operator, courier firm, customs agents) which will pay it to the customs authorities via a monthly payment.

Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 04 January, 2021, 09:12:59 pm
The only difference is the eu one has been postponed by 6 months to July because of covid
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 04 January, 2021, 09:32:00 pm
But what's to stop you being charged VAT by eBay and then by RM too, when the item arrives in the UK?  If it relies on a customs declaration, Chinese sellers will just say VAT has already been paid via a platform.  What are HMRC going to be able to do about it?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 04 January, 2021, 09:45:46 pm
But what's to stop you being charged VAT by eBay and then by RM too, when the item arrives in the UK?  If it relies on a customs declaration, Chinese sellers will just say VAT has already been paid via a platform.  What are HMRC going to be able to do about it?
If the package does not have an EORI number on it then it I think it will be stopped at customs.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hubner on 05 January, 2021, 04:50:57 pm
But what's to stop you being charged VAT by eBay and then by RM too, when the item arrives in the UK?  If it relies on a customs declaration, Chinese sellers will just say VAT has already been paid via a platform.  What are HMRC going to be able to do about it?
If the package does not have an EORI number on it then it I think it will be stopped at customs.

I was wondering having to pay VAT twice.
Eg, if you ordered from Brooks before 29 December (they stopped taking orders on 29 December), you would have paid VAT to Brooks.
Then when the item, costing £20-£135, arrives in the UK now in January, will Royal Mail say you have to pay VAT plus handling charge?

I know someone who bought something online from a US company in December, but it seems the company's warehouse is in an EU country, the Netherlands I think. The order was in GBP and included VAT.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: sojournermike on 05 January, 2021, 07:04:01 pm
On terms of importing from China, and now the EU, I think that over 135 you pay with no vat to supplier and then vat should be collected on arrival in the UK. That’s fine for frames and rims. Not so much for a small battery box which is no longer vat exempt. I can see that making life fun for the customs chaps and chapped sea, but at least they’re not being asked to look for drugs in lorries for the next 6 months.

Meanwhile, back on mainland Europe, Bike24 no longer have a UK option:(
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rafletcher on 06 January, 2021, 08:17:06 am
Meanwhile, back on mainland Europe, Bike24 no longer have a UK option:(

Yep. Can still sign in to my account, but nothing I want ships to the UK. I think we'd be quite a good percentage of their market too, but maybe not quite enough for the hassle involved. Even groupsets <€1000 aren't available. I wonder if SJS et al have upped their prices by 10% to "compensate"  :-\
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: giropaul on 06 January, 2021, 09:10:10 am
In today’s Times -
“ Amazon prices rise as Chinese sellers’ VAT loophole closed”

Examples given include
Fitness tracker watch has gone from £20.39 to £23.99
Bike lights from £12.99 to £14.99
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 January, 2021, 09:32:39 am
We're not talking about importing but buying goods located abroad. It's been reported in several places that there is a fee for foreign sellers to register with HMRC for VAT. And it doesn't apply to anything over £135 – HMRC will collect it themselves! – nor to selling via Ebay, Amazon, Redbubble, Aliexpress, Etsy, Allegro and other online shopping platforms.
Buying goods located abroad and shipping them into this country is importing. It may well have been reported in several places there is a fee for foreign sellers to register for vat. Perhaps someone should tell the HMRC because they seem to not realise. I suspect someone has been quoted a fee by their accountant for doing a 2 minute job. I provided the links above for anyone foreign or otherwise to do it for themselves.

You are correct it is for low value goods (below £135) and if going through a platform the platform will do the work for you and pay the vat to HMRC.
But the registration requirement is on the seller.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 06 January, 2021, 10:12:53 am
We're not talking about importing but buying goods located abroad. It's been reported in several places that there is a fee for foreign sellers to register with HMRC for VAT. And it doesn't apply to anything over £135 – HMRC will collect it themselves! – nor to selling via Ebay, Amazon, Redbubble, Aliexpress, Etsy, Allegro and other online shopping platforms.
Buying goods located abroad and shipping them into this country is importing. It may well have been reported in several places there is a fee for foreign sellers to register for vat. Perhaps someone should tell the HMRC because they seem to not realise. I suspect someone has been quoted a fee by their accountant for doing a 2 minute job. I provided the links above for anyone foreign or otherwise to do it for themselves.

You are correct it is for low value goods (below £135) and if going through a platform the platform will do the work for you and pay the vat to HMRC.
But the registration requirement is on the seller.
Correct. It is the seller that needs to register and collect vat.

This is not entirely new. If you sell digitally delivered goods, such as software downloads or knitting patterns, it has been in place for several years including between eu countries. 

From July it will apply to physical goods coming into eu. In due course i would not be surprised if it applied to intra eu too.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 06 January, 2021, 11:26:57 am
Meanwhile, back on mainland Europe, Bike24 no longer have a UK option:(

Yep. Can still sign in to my account, but nothing I want ships to the UK. I think we'd be quite a good percentage of their market too, but maybe not quite enough for the hassle involved. Even groupsets <€1000 aren't available. I wonder if SJS et al have upped their prices by 10% to "compensate"  :-\
More like 25% to reflect the lack of competition!
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Polar Bear on 06 January, 2021, 11:39:52 am
We're not talking about importing but buying goods located abroad. It's been reported in several places that there is a fee for foreign sellers to register with HMRC for VAT. And it doesn't apply to anything over £135 – HMRC will collect it themselves! – nor to selling via Ebay, Amazon, Redbubble, Aliexpress, Etsy, Allegro and other online shopping platforms.
Buying goods located abroad and shipping them into this country is importing. It may well have been reported in several places there is a fee for foreign sellers to register for vat. Perhaps someone should tell the HMRC because they seem to not realise. I suspect someone has been quoted a fee by their accountant for doing a 2 minute job. I provided the links above for anyone foreign or otherwise to do it for themselves.

You are correct it is for low value goods (below £135) and if going through a platform the platform will do the work for you and pay the vat to HMRC.
But the registration requirement is on the seller.
Correct. It is the seller that needs to register and collect vat.

This is not entirely new. If you sell digitally delivered goods, such as software downloads or knitting patterns, it has been in place for several years including between eu countries. 

From July it will apply to physical goods coming into eu. In due course i would not be surprised if it applied to intra eu too.

Why would it apply intra EU as they have the free market?   Surely it will only ever apply to imports.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 06 January, 2021, 11:56:14 am
Different VAT rates between countries, though.  Currently this is just written off, but those with higher VAT rates may want their pound of flesh.

Good news - Bikester has said it will keep shipping to the UK and is setting up a UK warehouse.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 06 January, 2021, 12:00:34 pm
We're not talking about importing but buying goods located abroad. It's been reported in several places that there is a fee for foreign sellers to register with HMRC for VAT. And it doesn't apply to anything over £135 – HMRC will collect it themselves! – nor to selling via Ebay, Amazon, Redbubble, Aliexpress, Etsy, Allegro and other online shopping platforms.
Buying goods located abroad and shipping them into this country is importing. It may well have been reported in several places there is a fee for foreign sellers to register for vat. Perhaps someone should tell the HMRC because they seem to not realise. I suspect someone has been quoted a fee by their accountant for doing a 2 minute job. I provided the links above for anyone foreign or otherwise to do it for themselves.

You are correct it is for low value goods (below £135) and if going through a platform the platform will do the work for you and pay the vat to HMRC.
But the registration requirement is on the seller.
Correct. It is the seller that needs to register and collect vat.

This is not entirely new. If you sell digitally delivered goods, such as software downloads or knitting patterns, it has been in place for several years including between eu countries. 

From July it will apply to physical goods coming into eu. In due course i would not be surprised if it applied to intra eu too.

Why would it apply intra EU as they have the free market?   Surely it will only ever apply to imports.
Why does it currently apply to digital goods if there is free trade ? If a company in France sells digital goods (such as knitting patterns, ebooks, computer software) to a consumer in Germany the vat is calculated at the German rate and paid to the German vat authorities.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 06 January, 2021, 12:08:33 pm
Why would it apply intra EU as they have the free market?   Surely it will only ever apply to imports.
Why does it currently apply to digital goods if there is free trade ? If a company in France sells digital goods (such as knitting patterns, ebooks, computer software) to a consumer in Germany the vat is calculated at the German rate and paid to the German vat authorities.

A few years ago it was made a requirement for EU companies to charge VAT to the end customer based on the rate of the country they are in and then account for this on their vat return. So if you sell to .NL it's 21%, to .de it's 19% etc...

This is because Amazon was registered in Luxembourg, and was selling everything at 15% VAT, and it was annoying the rest of the EU.

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: toontra on 06 January, 2021, 12:12:01 pm
Good news - Bikester has said it will keep shipping to the UK and is setting up a UK warehouse.

 :thumbsup:

As are Bike-Discount I think.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 06 January, 2021, 12:25:31 pm
Why would it apply intra EU as they have the free market?   Surely it will only ever apply to imports.
Why does it currently apply to digital goods if there is free trade ? If a company in France sells digital goods (such as knitting patterns, ebooks, computer software) to a consumer in Germany the vat is calculated at the German rate and paid to the German vat authorities.
A few years ago it was made a requirement for EU companies to charge VAT to the end customer based on the rate of the country they are in and then account for this on their vat return. So if you sell to .NL it's 21%, to .de it's 19% etc...

This is because Amazon was registered in Luxembourg, and was selling everything at 15% VAT, and it was annoying the rest of the EU.

J
I realise this. If this starts happening with  physical goods, how will the eu react? The problem is lack of harmonisation of tax rates. That is how it should be corrected
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 06 January, 2021, 12:30:35 pm
I realise this. If this starts happening with  physical goods, how will the eu react? The problem is lack of harmonisation of tax rates. That is how it should be corrected

It already does effect physical goods. If I have a shop in .NL and I sell to someone in Germany, I collect vat at 19%, and account for it on my return. I pay the 19% to Belastingdienst, who hand it over to the Germans.

If I provide a service, the same happens.

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 06 January, 2021, 12:30:48 pm
Oh I see it already does when you go over a certain threshold
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 06 January, 2021, 12:49:52 pm
So essentially for eu based suppliers supplying goods to U.K. worth less the £135 they still collect VAT on behalf of U.K. but rather than returning it via the national tax authority they have to register for vat and return it to HMRC directly. The barrier being imagined registration fees and hassle.

Might be time for a supplier of cheap VAT return filing software to consider translating it into foreign.

It would mean selling it abroad and all that entails.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: DuncanM on 06 January, 2021, 01:41:46 pm
The whole Making Tax Digital thing that HMRC did in the last few years should have made this a little less painful. I know we have customers using our solution to do it, and it seems to be working relatively well. How does the threshold stuff work if you are not a UK business? If you are a UK business with an annual turnover under 85k then you don't have to register.
I'm guessing integration of a MTD approved solution into the back-end is going to be the awkward/expensive bit.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 06 January, 2021, 01:43:06 pm
The threshold is 0
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: DuncanM on 06 January, 2021, 01:44:36 pm
The threshold is 0
For using an MTD approved system to submit your returns?  No wonder EU based companies are not bothering.
Title: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 06 January, 2021, 01:47:03 pm
The threshold is 0
For using an MTD approved system to submit your returns?  No wonder EU based companies are not bothering.
There are MTD packages that are free. The HMRC prefer “recognised” rather than “approved”. The back end might be just excel.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: giropaul on 11 January, 2021, 04:11:04 pm
I now notice that any EBay item not in the U.K. now includes “ plus 20%VAT” alongside the price and delivery charges.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: DuncanM on 11 January, 2021, 04:24:08 pm
The threshold is 0
For using an MTD approved system to submit your returns?  No wonder EU based companies are not bothering.
There are MTD packages that are free. The HMRC prefer “recognised” rather than “approved”. The back end might be just excel.
There's a scale thing here though - if you only trade small volumes then the pain of sorting out the free software and getting the Excel spreadsheet into the right format etc. is probably not worth it. Alternatively if you trade larger volumes then you need the integration with your existing ERP, and the out-of-the-box solutions cost money. Clearly if you are big enough, that investment is definitely worth it.

I wonder if the rules of origin issue that affects Percy Pigs applies to bicycles.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: yoav on 13 January, 2021, 09:38:16 am
I was thinking that too as just about everything that goes into a bicycle is made in the far east. I guess big brands will have European bases already but what about middling U.K. bike brands like Ribble and Planet X - do they sell much to the EU and do have need to have a European base also? And what is the tariff on bicycles?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: toontra on 13 January, 2021, 09:43:03 am
I now notice that any EBay item not in the U.K. now includes “ plus 20%VAT” alongside the price and delivery charges.

I've noticed that as well.  Parts coming direct from Asia are adding 20%.  What has this to do with Brexit?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: ScumOfTheRoad on 13 January, 2021, 09:56:37 am
Yoav, I do not think there are tariffs on bicycles. To explain:

a) Our Governmnent made a big deal about the Trade Agreement. Yes indeed there are no tariffs or quotas on goods from the UK into EU

b) they did NOT say - and I believe kept it quiet - that there would be no 'friction' - meaning custome declarations, health checks on animals, checks on standards for pesticides used, checks on the health of seafood...

c) I bet there is still huge paperwork in terms of carnets of you are taking a band on tour or a theatre production

d) The UK Government wants the FOREIGN seller to charge VAT on their behalf - the foreign sellers are saying sod this

e) The EU were very canny. They know they need UK produced goods - thats why they agred to zero tarrifs.
But they made sure 'triangular trade' is not allowed, using rules of origin. You cannot buy components in a cheap country then bring them into the UK and sell them on tariff free to the EU. Think about it - that would be the equivalent oof that cheap country dodging EU import tariffs and quotas.

I dont knwo the proportin for the rules of origin - someone help please?
SO all I could say is that bike frames built in the UK are probably tariff free.
Import a thousand Giant bikes ard put new logos on them and you will be caught by tariffs








Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: ScumOfTheRoad on 13 January, 2021, 09:57:07 am
Yoav - that reply was a lot more ranty than I intended. Please do not take any offence.
Title: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 09:57:41 am
I was thinking that too as just about everything that goes into a bicycle is made in the far east. I guess big brands will have European bases already but what about middling U.K. bike brands like Ribble and Planet X - do they sell much to the EU and do have need to have a European base also? And what is the tariff on bicycles?
Tariff on bikes is 14% unless they are assembled in China when it is around 50%

As bike parts and bikes are different tariff categories I think it would guess it would be ok under the “change of tariff classification rule” and so there would be no tariff on eu or U.K. bikes even if assembled mainly from components including frames manufactured abroad .... but I am just guessing.

Certainly the added value would fail - bikes often seem to sell for less than the total of their components.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 13 January, 2021, 10:34:26 am
I realise this. If this starts happening with  physical goods, how will the eu react? The problem is lack of harmonisation of tax rates. That is how it should be corrected

It already does effect physical goods. If I have a shop in .NL and I sell to someone in Germany, I collect vat at 19%, and account for it on my return. I pay the 19% to Belastingdienst, who hand it over to the Germans.

If I provide a service, the same happens.

J
I'm out of my depth on this - What happens to the VAT, who gets it? 
I used to be VAT registered but never exported, the money handed over was only the added portion. So what happens if I sell over the limit and without VAT, for it to be paid at destination?  Who do I claim the VAT refund from?  Does the destination country get the entire benefit while the originating one refunds the rest?  Seems a bit one sided, or maybe it averages out.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: ScumOfTheRoad on 13 January, 2021, 10:39:16 am
Sorry to be argumentative - and please understand that I am not being a smartarse. We did get a Trade Agreement.

If a No Deal happens, then Global Tariffs will kick in. Britain previously enjoyed free trade with the EU, which meant no tariffs, but if a Deal is not struck then these tariffs of 14% for bikes, 6% for e-bikes and 4% for most parts will take effect immediately.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/what-will-a-no-deal-brexit-mean-for-british-bike-customers.html
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: giropaul on 13 January, 2021, 11:08:17 am
Maybe there is a distinction between tariffs and VAT?
I’ve recently had to pay 20% VAT to EBay for an item ordered from a “ U.K.” supplier but which is fulfilled from China
I’m currently bidding on some bike tyres from Germany , the Facebook page clearly shows a + 20% VAT alongside the cost and post and packing.
( for clarity, it is a business seller in Germany)
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: DuncanM on 13 January, 2021, 11:25:34 am
There is a distinction between tariffs and VAT.
VAT is a charge incurred when a customer buys a VATable item, and is charged on the sale price of the item.
A tariff is a charge incurred when an item is imported, is charged on the declared value of the item, and is payable by the importer.

If an item is produced in the UK and imported to the EU (and vice versa), then under the trade agreement, there should be no tariff, however the seller is still responsible for collecting the VAT (and now has to submit it to the relevant tax authority directly).

Rules of origin are about what counts as "produced in the UK" - the are to avoid a scenario where someone imports a bike from China to the UK under a UK-China trade agreement, slaps a sticker on it, and then exports it to the EU as a UK product. The way they do this is by saying that a certain amount of the item has to be produced in the UK (in our example). This is further complicated because there are "qualifying" countries, that would count towards this proportion when inside the EU. Now the UK is a 3rd party, I don't think items from these "qualifying" countries would count toward the UK proportion.
A quick google lead me to this which explains the qualifying countries a bit more clearly and lists them (link is old article - there might be more recent ones with better google fu):
https://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/artikel/2010/12/eu-relaxes-rules-of-origin-for-gsp-imports-1018952?_ga=2.242323777.215557106.1610536617-618091548.1610536617
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 11:54:37 am
It is not just the “amount of it” it is also how much it has been “worked”

One of the tests is if it has changed category. So taking in bike components and converting into a bike is ok.

Taking in bike components (spokes, hubs and rims) and converting into a wheel (still a component) you would have to show how much it had been worked - this could be based on value increase.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 13 January, 2021, 12:05:17 pm
the seller is still responsible for collecting the VAT (and now has to submit it to the relevant tax authority directly).
I understand that's only on low value consignments, under £135. Those over are sold without VAT and it's collected on import. 
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: DuncanM on 13 January, 2021, 12:15:43 pm
the seller is still responsible for collecting the VAT (and now has to submit it to the relevant tax authority directly).
I understand that's only on low value consignments, under £135. Those over are sold without VAT and it's collected on import.
I was intending to talk in general.  If you buy a TV from Currys, Currys have to collect the VAT and submit it to HMRC. The word "now" changed the whole meaning.  ::-)
Where Import and VAT overlap, things are more involved.

It is not just the “amount of it” it is also how much it has been “worked”

One of the tests is if it has changed category. So taking in bike components and converting into a bike is ok.

Taking in bike components (spokes, hubs and rims) and converting into a wheel (still a component) you would have to show how much it had been worked - this could be based on value increase.
That's interesting.  I thought there was an added value component, so if you bought £1000 worth of components from outside the EU, assembled them and put a Made In the UK sticker on it and exported it for £1020, there would be an issue. Otherwise, all you need to do is import a bike in a box as a set of components, put the pedals on, stick the sticker on and then send it back out again?   
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 13 January, 2021, 12:28:46 pm
the seller is still responsible for collecting the VAT (and now has to submit it to the relevant tax authority directly).
I understand that's only on low value consignments, under £135. Those over are sold without VAT and it's collected on import.
I was intending to talk in general.  If you buy a TV from Currys, Currys have to collect the VAT and submit it to HMRC. The word "now" changed the whole meaning.  ::-)
Where Import and VAT overlap, things are more involved.

What's the rolling eyes about?
Here's your entire paragraph:
Quote
If an item is produced in the UK and imported to the EU (and vice versa), then under the trade agreement, there should be no tariff, however the seller is still responsible for collecting the VAT (and now has to submit it to the relevant tax authority directly).
If the consignment is over £135 that is I believe incorrect. The EU seller is not responsible for collecting the VAT.
Title: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 12:32:04 pm
the seller is still responsible for collecting the VAT (and now has to submit it to the relevant tax authority directly).
I understand that's only on low value consignments, under £135. Those over are sold without VAT and it's collected on import.
I was intending to talk in general.  If you buy a TV from Currys, Currys have to collect the VAT and submit it to HMRC. The word "now" changed the whole meaning.  ::-)
Where Import and VAT overlap, things are more involved.

It is not just the “amount of it” it is also how much it has been “worked”

One of the tests is if it has changed category. So taking in bike components and converting into a bike is ok.

Taking in bike components (spokes, hubs and rims) and converting into a wheel (still a component) you would have to show how much it had been worked - this could be based on value increase.
That's interesting.  I thought there was an added value component, so if you bought £1000 worth of components from outside the EU, assembled them and put a Made In the UK sticker on it and exported it for £1020, there would be an issue. Otherwise, all you need to do is import a bike in a box as a set of components, put the pedals on, stick the sticker on and then send it back out again?
Change in value or change in customs tariff classification (or both).
 
So importing sugar and goat semen and exporting energy gels is fine.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 12:37:22 pm
It could be the bag of bits you import is classed as a finished bicycle

Incomplete or unfinished vehicles
When a motor vehicle or bicycle is imported incomplete or unfinished, it can be classified as complete or finished if it has the essential character. This could be a:

vehicle not yet fitted with wheels, tyres or the battery
vehicle not equipped with its engine or with its interior fittings
bicycle without its saddle and tyres
bicycle consisting of the frame, the fork and at least 2 of the following components:
set of wheels
crank-gear
steering unit - including handlebar and handlebar stems
brake system
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 13 January, 2021, 12:43:13 pm
  I thought there was an added value component, so if you bought £1000 worth of components from outside the EU, assembled them and put a Made In the UK sticker on it and exported it for £1020, there would be an issue.
My understanding is that it makes no difference whether you've imported the parts or materials from the EU or anywhere else, if you haven't done sufficient processing then tariffs will be due.
Title: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 12:50:51 pm
My understanding is that it makes no difference whether you've imported from the EU or anywhere else, if you haven't done sufficient processing then tariffs will be due.
I don’t believe so. The tariffs are for “3rd countries”. It is as Duncan said above to stop imports that the eu like to tax sneaking into eu via Britain. If you add sufficient value or transformation then it is made in Britain. If it contains sufficient British components then it is also made in Britain. That can also be based bizarrely on weight. If it weren’t for other routes I could see lightweight carbon fibre frames being fitted with Carradice saddle bags.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 January, 2021, 01:01:18 pm
It is not just the “amount of it” it is also how much it has been “worked”

One of the tests is if it has changed category. So taking in bike components and converting into a bike is ok.

Taking in bike components (spokes, hubs and rims) and converting into a wheel (still a component) you would have to show how much it had been worked - this could be based on value increase.
"Cumulation" in the jargon. I think the process has to add "significant value" for the exported item to qualify. I don't know if there's a definition of "significant"?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 01:03:25 pm
It is not just the “amount of it” it is also how much it has been “worked”

One of the tests is if it has changed category. So taking in bike components and converting into a bike is ok.

Taking in bike components (spokes, hubs and rims) and converting into a wheel (still a component) you would have to show how much it had been worked - this could be based on value increase.
"Cumulation" in the jargon.
That is particularly relevant to the energy gels in post #150 above
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: DuncanM on 13 January, 2021, 01:06:29 pm
the seller is still responsible for collecting the VAT (and now has to submit it to the relevant tax authority directly).
I understand that's only on low value consignments, under £135. Those over are sold without VAT and it's collected on import.
I was intending to talk in general.  If you buy a TV from Currys, Currys have to collect the VAT and submit it to HMRC. The word "now" changed the whole meaning.  ::-)
Where Import and VAT overlap, things are more involved.

What's the rolling eyes about?

Sorry, was intended to be me messing up my own point. I managed to coonflate 2 issues and mix them up myself - it was not aimed at you or anyone else
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 13 January, 2021, 01:15:56 pm
My understanding is that it makes no difference whether you've imported from the EU or anywhere else, if you haven't done sufficient processing then tariffs will be due.
I don’t believe so. The tariffs are for “3rd countries”. It is as Duncan said above to stop imports that the eu like to tax sneaking into eu via Britain. If you add sufficient value or transformation then it is made in Britain. If it contains sufficient British components then it is also made in Britain. That can also be based bizarrely on weight. If it weren’t for other routes I could see lightweight carbon fibre frames being fitted with Carradice saddle bags.
My interest is in retail, so other sectors may be different, I'm going of the guidance issued by the BRC
Quote
Goods which are imported from the EU to the UK and which do not undergo sufficient processing while in the UK, will not be eligible for the tariff preferences if they are re-exported to the EU. In that case, those goods will face EU MFN tariffs.
https://brc.org.uk/news/trade/rules-of-origin-guidance-on-the-uk-eu-tca-new-rules-of-origin/
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 01:18:46 pm
My understanding is that it makes no difference whether you've imported from the EU or anywhere else, if you haven't done sufficient processing then tariffs will be due.
I don’t believe so. The tariffs are for “3rd countries”. It is as Duncan said above to stop imports that the eu like to tax sneaking into eu via Britain. If you add sufficient value or transformation then it is made in Britain. If it contains sufficient British components then it is also made in Britain. That can also be based bizarrely on weight. If it weren’t for other routes I could see lightweight carbon fibre frames being fitted with Carradice saddle bags.
My interest is in retail, so other sectors may be different, I'm going of the guidance issued by the BRC
Quote
Goods which are imported from the EU to the UK and which do not undergo sufficient processing while in the UK, will not be eligible for the tariff preferences if they are re-exported to the EU. In that case, those goods will face EU MFN tariffs.
https://brc.org.uk/news/trade/rules-of-origin-guidance-on-the-uk-eu-tca-new-rules-of-origin/
I stand corrected. It does seem bizarre- so if you shipped something from Europe and then shipped it back again ?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 01:35:46 pm
My understanding is that it makes no difference whether you've imported from the EU or anywhere else, if you haven't done sufficient processing then tariffs will be due.
I don’t believe so. The tariffs are for “3rd countries”. It is as Duncan said above to stop imports that the eu like to tax sneaking into eu via Britain. If you add sufficient value or transformation then it is made in Britain. If it contains sufficient British components then it is also made in Britain. That can also be based bizarrely on weight. If it weren’t for other routes I could see lightweight carbon fibre frames being fitted with Carradice saddle bags.
My interest is in retail, so other sectors may be different, I'm going of the guidance issued by the BRC
Quote
Goods which are imported from the EU to the UK and which do not undergo sufficient processing while in the UK, will not be eligible for the tariff preferences if they are re-exported to the EU. In that case, those goods will face EU MFN tariffs.
https://brc.org.uk/news/trade/rules-of-origin-guidance-on-the-uk-eu-tca-new-rules-of-origin/
I stand corrected. It does seem bizarre- so if you shipped something from Europe and then shipped it back again ?
I am still trying to understand this BRC/marks and sparks issue. I think it is does not apply to things made in the eu.

So you import some Camembert and reexport - fine.
You import a partially assembled bike from Italy that originated in China and was not sufficiently worked in Italy- you are hit by duties on import from italy. You don’t work it and export to France. Wham duties again. Three lots of duty. Ouch, particularly as bikes of Chinese origin are 50% duty.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 01:50:27 pm
I am returning to my previous position unswayed by Marks and Spencer’s.

Quote
The Chapter also provides for full bilateral cumulation (cumulation of both materials and processing) between the UK and the EU, allowing EU inputs and processing to be counted as UK input in UK products exported to the EU and vice versa. The ambitious arrangements include facilitations on average pricing, accounting segregation for certain products, as well as all materials, and tolerance by value. The rules are also supported by predictable and low- cost administrative arrangements for proving origin.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 13 January, 2021, 04:15:52 pm
I am returning to my previous position unswayed by Marks and Spencer’s.

Quote
The Chapter also provides for full bilateral cumulation (cumulation of both materials and processing) between the UK and the EU, allowing EU inputs and processing to be counted as UK input in UK products exported to the EU and vice versa. The ambitious arrangements include facilitations on average pricing, accounting segregation for certain products, as well as all materials, and tolerance by value. The rules are also supported by predictable and low- cost administrative arrangements for proving origin.
OK, I read that chapter (Rather than just the government spin) and then the parts of the agreement it's based on, then the difference between product specific and general provision, and came to
Quote
if the only processing carried out on a product in the UK is insufficient, it will not meet the rules of origin even if the processing was carried out on EU-originating materials or if further processing (beyond insufficient) had previously been carried out in the EU.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 04:19:20 pm
I am returning to my previous position unswayed by Marks and Spencer’s.

Quote
The Chapter also provides for full bilateral cumulation (cumulation of both materials and processing) between the UK and the EU, allowing EU inputs and processing to be counted as UK input in UK products exported to the EU and vice versa. The ambitious arrangements include facilitations on average pricing, accounting segregation for certain products, as well as all materials, and tolerance by value. The rules are also supported by predictable and low- cost administrative arrangements for proving origin.
OK, I read that chapter (Rather than just the government spin) and then the parts of the agreement it's based on, then the difference between product specific and general provision, and came to
Quote
if the only processing carried out on a product in the UK is insufficient, it will not meet the rules of origin even if the processing was carried out on EU-originating materials or if further processing (beyond insufficient) had previously been carried out in the EU.
I am struggling to comprehend what that means. Do you have a fuller context. It seems to contradict what is says in the summary.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: ScumOfTheRoad on 13 January, 2021, 04:32:37 pm
Seen on Twitter. This might be helpful in this thread
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rules-of-origin-for-goods-moving-between-the-uk-and-eu
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 04:35:55 pm
Seen on Twitter. This ight be helpful in this thread
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rules-of-origin-for-goods-moving-between-the-uk-and-eu
It was from page 1 of that I posted the bit about bilateral cumulation. I am struggling to get my head round the whole thing.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 13 January, 2021, 04:49:29 pm
Seen on Twitter. This ight be helpful in this thread
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rules-of-origin-for-goods-moving-between-the-uk-and-eu
It was from page 1 of that I posted the bit about bilateral cumulation. I am struggling to get my head round the whole thing.
From the link above go to - 3. General Provisions: Checking Your Goods Meet the Rules of Origin
That's the agreement, rather than the Government spin.  It's quite clear that the cumulation applies only if there's been sufficient processing, which is what the BRC link says.  What constitutes sufficient processing varies with product type, there's general and specific rules.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 04:53:23 pm
Seen on Twitter. This ight be helpful in this thread
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rules-of-origin-for-goods-moving-between-the-uk-and-eu
It was from page 1 of that I posted the bit about bilateral cumulation. I am struggling to get my head round the whole thing.
From the link above go to - 3. General Provisions: Checking Your Goods Meet the Rules of Origin
That's the agreement, rather than the the Government spin.
I was digging my way through the actual trade agreement ! https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948119/EU-UK_Trade_and_Cooperation_Agreement_24.12.2020.pdf
Title: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 05:37:34 pm
Seen on Twitter. This ight be helpful in this thread
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rules-of-origin-for-goods-moving-between-the-uk-and-eu
It was from page 1 of that I posted the bit about bilateral cumulation. I am struggling to get my head round the whole thing.
From the link above go to - 3. General Provisions: Checking Your Goods Meet the Rules of Origin
That's the agreement, rather than the the Government spin.
I was digging my way through the actual trade agreement ! https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948119/EU-UK_Trade_and_Cooperation_Agreement_24.12.2020.pdf
Ok I get it now. I understood say importing Camembert and not doing anything to it, it would still be French and it would still be French if you sent it back to France. I assumed there would be no import duty going to France as I had read there would be no duties on items originating in eu or U.K.

I had misunderstood the word “or” in “eu or U.K.”. I thought it meant “either” but it means “the other party”

So the eu imposes duty on import of eu originating items! Well at least it will cut down on carbon emissions, getting rid of all this shipping back and forth of unchanged items.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 January, 2021, 05:43:41 pm
I think "not doing anything to it" includes repackaging. I think this was a problem for Irish supermarkets, that items were being imported from EU to UK distribution centres, where they were put into Irish boxing and sent across the Irish Sea. This meant they were re-imports and subject to duty. If they just passed through the UK and never left the lorry, they would only be in transit, no duty. If they were substantially altered, they would be "cumulated", new product, no duty.

Not sure I haven't mixed something up there...
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: DuncanM on 13 January, 2021, 05:55:32 pm
Does the Camenbert example also explain the difficulty Brooks had (due to them being shipped to Selle Italia before being re-shipped worldwide)?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 06:28:33 pm
I am still not 100% sure yet. The agreement prevents France for example charging duty on U.K. products.  It does not stop them charging duty on re-import of unaltered .french products, but I don’t know what rate this is at. It seems slightly odd. I don’t see who benefits from this.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: yoav on 14 January, 2021, 04:03:03 pm
AFAIK, the rules of origin apply even if the goods were originally made in the EU, exported to the UK and then re-imported into the EU - as already happened with Percy Pigs, which are made in Germany but are subject to tariffs when M&S exported them from the UK to Ireland.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 14 January, 2021, 04:33:52 pm
AFAIK, the rules of origin apply even if the goods were originally made in the EU, exported to the UK and then re-imported into the EU - as already happened with Percy Pigs, which are made in Germany but are subject to tariffs when M&S exported them from the UK to Ireland.
As the CEO of M&S said “So, the best example is Percy Pig is actually manufactured in Germany, and if it comes to the UK and we then send it to Ireland, in theory, he would have some tax on it.”

What on earth does “in theory” mean ?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: DuncanM on 14 January, 2021, 05:46:45 pm
Much of EU->Eire goods transport is via the UK. If you put a sealed container on a lorry in Paris and unloaded it in Dublin, would it still carry duty if it drove through the UK en-route?

There's some interesting threads floating around about motorsport people who want to trailer their car to an event/race in the EU (and then return with the car) needing to buy a carnet (essentially a passport for the car) so as to prove that they aren't exporting it. As well as the fee for the carnet (a few hundred quid), you either have to lodge a deposit of 40% or the value of the car, or buy insurance that covers that deposit (varies according to value and duration of stay in the EU). Who knew about all these arcane regulations?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 14 January, 2021, 05:52:01 pm
Much of EU->Eire goods transport is via the UK. If you put a sealed container on a lorry in Paris and unloaded it in Dublin, would it still carry duty if it drove through the UK en-route?

There's some interesting threads floating around about motorsport people who want to trailer their car to an event/race in the EU (and then return with the car) needing to buy a carnet (essentially a passport for the car) so as to prove that they aren't exporting it. As well as the fee for the carnet (a few hundred quid), you either have to lodge a deposit of 40% or the value of the car, or buy insurance that covers that deposit (varies according to value and duration of stay in the EU). Who knew about all these arcane regulations?
Freight in transit is fine. TIR and all that mullarky.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 January, 2021, 06:23:39 pm
AFAIK, the rules of origin apply even if the goods were originally made in the EU, exported to the UK and then re-imported into the EU - as already happened with Percy Pigs, which are made in Germany but are subject to tariffs when M&S exported them from the UK to Ireland.
As the CEO of M&S said “So, the best example is Percy Pig is actually manufactured in Germany, and if it comes to the UK and we then send it to Ireland, in theory, he would have some tax on it.”

What on earth does “in theory” mean ?

It means “the CEO of M&S is as confused as the rest of us”?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: giropaul on 14 January, 2021, 07:30:10 pm
Much of EU->Eire goods transport is via the UK. If you put a sealed container on a lorry in Paris and unloaded it in Dublin, would it still carry duty if it drove through the UK en-route?

There's some interesting threads floating around about motorsport people who want to trailer their car to an event/race in the EU (and then return with the car) needing to buy a carnet (essentially a passport for the car) so as to prove that they aren't exporting it. As well as the fee for the carnet (a few hundred quid), you either have to lodge a deposit of 40% or the value of the car, or buy insurance that covers that deposit (varies according to value and duration of stay in the EU). Who knew about all these arcane regulations?

ANC cycling team had to have a carnet for the truck carrying ££££ of new Campag parts and frames etc as spares for races. I was usually the driver. Fortunately most European border crossings were more interested in the race reports ( and team hats)
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 January, 2021, 11:12:34 am
There's some interesting threads floating around about motorsport people who want to trailer their car to an event/race in the EU (and then return with the car) needing to buy a carnet (essentially a passport for the car) so as to prove that they aren't exporting it. As well as the fee for the carnet (a few hundred quid), you either have to lodge a deposit of 40% or the value of the car, or buy insurance that covers that deposit (varies according to value and duration of stay in the EU). Who knew about all these arcane regulations?

Which could be very expensive if you crash the car, and it burns up in flames. Do you have to then put the wreckage back on the trailer to bring it back to .UK... or lose your deposit?

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 January, 2021, 01:23:14 pm

I just ordered a CTC bike bag from wiggle. For delivery to .NL. €14 for the bag, €12 for shipping...

Let's see a) if it gets here b) when it gets here c) how much I get charged to receive it...

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 17 January, 2021, 04:52:05 pm

I just ordered a CTC bike bag from wiggle. For delivery to .NL. €14 for the bag, €12 for shipping...

Let's see a) if it gets here b) when it gets here c) how much I get charged to receive it...

J
Keep us updated. What you won’t know is whether NL vat office ever got the vat element.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Mr Larrington on 17 January, 2021, 06:24:47 pm
There's some interesting threads floating around about motorsport people who want to trailer their car to an event/race in the EU (and then return with the car) needing to buy a carnet (essentially a passport for the car) so as to prove that they aren't exporting it. As well as the fee for the carnet (a few hundred quid), you either have to lodge a deposit of 40% or the value of the car, or buy insurance that covers that deposit (varies according to value and duration of stay in the EU). Who knew about all these arcane regulations?

Which could be very expensive if you crash the car, and it burns up in flames. Do you have to then put the wreckage back on the trailer to bring it back to .UK... or lose your deposit?

In the pre-EEC era BRITONS who stacked their racing cars on the 'nent did indeed bring the wreckage home with them.  They also used to hide any starting/prize money they'd earned up the exhaust pipes ;D
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 17 January, 2021, 06:43:07 pm
And Spa has stopped selling to the Eu.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Andrew Br on 17 January, 2021, 07:43:28 pm
Who knew about all these arcane regulations?

Most people who were shipping goods or carrying stuff around Europe before the Single Market.
Well, maybe not all about them but they were aware of the existence of the regulations and they knew what applied to their particular circumstances.

Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: giropaul on 18 January, 2021, 08:22:38 am
https://www.bicycleassociation.org.uk/news-press/post-brexit-regulations-product-safety-standards-ukca-mark-uk-eu-rules-of-origin/

The “ easiest deal”?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: DuncanM on 18 January, 2021, 08:56:02 am
https://www.bicycleassociation.org.uk/news-press/post-brexit-regulations-product-safety-standards-ukca-mark-uk-eu-rules-of-origin/

The “ easiest deal”?

Quote

BIKES (IN TARIFF HEADING 8712)
The rule for conventional bikes is just a single provision.

It is that the value of the non-EU or UK-sourced parts used to assemble it makes up no more than 45% of the ex-works price
Implication: For bikes assembled in mainland Europe or the UK from mostly imported parts, it may be difficult to stay below the 45% threshold. If that is the case, when moved between EU and GB, a 14% tariff will be payable. It may be possible for the EU or UK factory to increase the percentage of EU or UK-sourced parts, or to add increased value in the assembly or finishing processes, to meet the 45% limit and hence get zero tariffs again.

If I am reading this correctly, then Rose bikes and any others that are EU assembled from far eastern components (with small margins) should be hit by 14% duty on import to the UK. If your margins are big enough, then the 45% mark might not be an issue.

Who knew about all these arcane regulations?

Most people who were shipping goods or carrying stuff around Europe before the Single Market.
Well, maybe not all about them but they were aware of the existence of the regulations and they knew what applied to their particular circumstances.
So people doing the same job as they were doing 30 years ago?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Polar Bear on 18 January, 2021, 09:48:27 am
Many people have had the foresight to go and read up on WTO and Third Country status trading rules and regulations with the EU for their own particular industrial sectors as far back as when Cameron promised the referendum.  Academics, accountants and lawyers also did their research.

As a result we had information put out there and a largely successful shouty campaign of disinformation labelling the genuine information as 'Project Fear'.

It should be noted that the likes of Rees-Mogg, Dyson and Ratcliffe will have commissioned and listened to this research and the accompanying financial and legal advice before moving part or all of their business interests out of the UK and into the EU or other countries with clear trading deals with the EU in respect of their own business practises. 

The daily dose of sme businesses in jeopardy as a result of the brexiteer unicorn hunter not doing their due diligence is extremely worrying with regard to the employees and communities that will be hard hit as a result.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 18 January, 2021, 10:26:14 am
Quote
It may be possible for the EU or UK factory to increase the percentage of EU or UK-sourced parts, or to add increased value in the assembly or finishing processes, to meet the 45% limit and hence get zero tariffs again.
So add a bit of unnecessary chrome (I use this in the IT sense of the word, not literally) to achieve the limit.  Yeah, that benefits the customer.

I wonder how comfortably a Brompton meets the limit?  Obviously the steel frames are made here, but I don't think Ti forks and rear triangles are, and nor are the expensive hubs or many other components.  Because, if Brompton can't do it, I doubt many others can.  Moulton is probably ok because of the massive cost of the frame.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Andrew Br on 18 January, 2021, 10:58:23 am

Who knew about all these arcane regulations?

Most people who were shipping goods or carrying stuff around Europe before the Single Market.
Well, maybe not all about them but they were aware of the existence of the regulations and they knew what applied to their particular circumstances.
So people doing the same job as they were doing 30 years ago?

I imagine that a large number of those people have now retired. Perhaps they're hoping to get re-employed as "consultants".
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 18 January, 2021, 11:03:18 am
Quote
It may be possible for the EU or UK factory to increase the percentage of EU or UK-sourced parts, or to add increased value in the assembly or finishing processes, to meet the 45% limit and hence get zero tariffs again.
So add a bit of unnecessary chrome (I use this in the IT sense of the word, not literally) to achieve the limit.  Yeah, that benefits the customer.

I wonder how comfortably a Brompton meets the limit?  Obviously the steel frames are made here, but I don't think Ti forks and rear triangles are, and nor are the expensive hubs or many other components.  Because, if Brompton can't do it, I doubt many others can.  Moulton is probably ok because of the massive cost of the frame.
It will affect the likes of Bianchi and canyon who have everything, frames included, manufactured in the Far East and just assemble in Europe. It is a trade agreement. Minor tweaks are possible without have to start again. Luckily Brompton have a big mark up !
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: joy of essex on 18 January, 2021, 12:23:23 pm
So the answer is to buy a Daccordi frame , which is made in Italy,  with a Campag groupset?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: andyoxon on 18 January, 2021, 04:08:12 pm
Seen this pm: Bike24  "Product not shippable to United Kingdom"

When the dust has settled from the start of Br*xit, what does the new norm hold re. price & availability of bike bits...   :-\
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 18 January, 2021, 04:33:33 pm
Brompton Ti swingarms and forks are made in the UK now.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: JonBuoy on 18 January, 2021, 06:29:54 pm
I see that Canyon have started shipping 'normal' bikes to UK but not Northern Ireland:  https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/blog-content/december-shipment-update.html
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Socks on 18 January, 2021, 07:30:14 pm
On behalf of Boris, Dom, and Mikey I should point that these issues are mere facts, part of project fear and therefore fake news.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 18 January, 2021, 08:08:11 pm

I just ordered a CTC bike bag from wiggle. For delivery to .NL. €14 for the bag, €12 for shipping...

Let's see a) if it gets here b) when it gets here c) how much I get charged to receive it...

J

Got a text and an email saying DHL will try to deliver on Thursday...

So far... So good...

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: mzjo on 18 January, 2021, 09:19:03 pm
And Spa has stopped selling to the Eu.

Spa had already stopped selling to Europeans before the Deal was agreed (like in the autumn last year was when I saw it). At the same time SJS wanted 33€ to post a set of Park pedal taps  (£6.50 for the UK) to France. I found a french supplier (Ultimebike IIRC) who were much more expensive but had a sensible p&p.


I just ordered a CTC bike bag from wiggle. For delivery to .NL. €14 for the bag, €12 for shipping...

Let's see a) if it gets here b) when it gets here c) how much I get charged to receive it...

J

Got a text and an email saying DHL will try to deliver on Thursday...

So far... So good...

J

Rose wanted over 9€ for sending a package of spokes price 3.50€. But for that one I will be tempted to find enough other stuff to justify the carriage.
Title: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 19 January, 2021, 09:03:04 am
I see that Canyon have started shipping 'normal' bikes to UK but not Northern Ireland:  https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/blog-content/december-shipment-update.html
Does anyone know if the prices gone up by 14% ? It is interesting that as the agreement was meant to promote ebikes yet those are the only ones they are not shipping.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 19 January, 2021, 09:20:07 am
On behalf of Boris, Dom, and Mikey I should point that these issues are mere facts, part of project fear and therefore fake news.
I thought empty super market shelves and war breaking out in Europe were predicted. Had the pending Percy Pig catastrophe been highlighted the vote might have been very very different.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 21 January, 2021, 02:24:11 pm

Good news, my CTC bike bag arrived.

Bad news, how fucking heavy?

No issues with delivery, no fees, I woke up to find it on my desk.

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Russell on 21 January, 2021, 02:29:17 pm
BBC article on import duties and VAT

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55734277 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55734277)
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: citoyen on 21 January, 2021, 02:45:50 pm
Much of EU->Eire goods transport is via the UK. If you put a sealed container on a lorry in Paris and unloaded it in Dublin, would it still carry duty if it drove through the UK en-route?
Freight in transit is fine. TIR and all that mullarky.

It might be fine in principle but I wonder if it might be a little more complicated in reality* - I read somewhere the other day about one particular freight operator moving all its ferries to the Cherbourg-Rosslare route, which suggests there are good reasons to avoid going via the UK.


*Apart from anything else, there are practical concerns like wanting to avoid being stuck in a 20 mile queue on the M20.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: yoav on 21 January, 2021, 07:39:19 pm
If I understand it correctly, goods in transit attract a deposit to cover import duties and VAT which are refunded once the goods leave the U.K.  Trouble is, the shipping agents who normally front up this money don’t have enough funds to cover the amount of through traffic that went before Brexit so they have been limiting this and looking for ways to avoid British roads.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: giropaul on 22 January, 2021, 08:44:42 am
So the answer is to buy a Daccordi frame , which is made in Italy,  with a Campag groupset?

Much of Campag isn’t made in Italy any more ( but some other countries of origin may still be in the EU). I haven’t any specific knowledge of Daccordi’s amount of in- house work, but with many other “ Italian” brands tubes come from outside the EU, many import part - made frames and then add dropouts etc, and then finish the frame. There are specific rules on bikes, based on % of EU components.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 22 January, 2021, 08:46:38 am
So the answer is to buy a Daccordi frame , which is made in Italy,  with a Campag groupset?

Much of Campag isn’t made in Italy any more ( but some other countries of origin may still be in the EU). I haven’t any specific knowledge of Daccordi’s amount of in- house work, but with many other “ Italian” brands tubes come from outside the EU, many import part - made frames and then add dropouts etc, and then finish the frame. There are specific rules on bikes, based on % of EU components.
I believe campag is all eu, with factories in Italy and Romania
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 25 January, 2021, 03:04:37 pm
Had an email exchange with Bikester.  Although they haven't updated their FAQ yet, they say they are paying the UK VAT and there should be no further charges on arrival.  There were apparently teething troubles (they say to bear this in mind if you read reviews) but it's working properly now.

Going to test by ordering a light which is £49 instead of £75 at the Bandits of Bridgwater.  Shipping cost £1.49 more.

Will report back, but it looks as if at least one German seller has got its shit together.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 25 January, 2021, 03:11:53 pm
Hoping it goes well. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: joy of essex on 01 February, 2021, 01:31:26 pm
So the answer is to buy a Daccordi frame , which is made in Italy,  with a Campag groupset?

Much of Campag isn’t made in Italy any more ( but some other countries of origin may still be in the EU). I haven’t any specific knowledge of Daccordi’s amount of in- house work, but with many other “ Italian” brands tubes come from outside the EU, many import part - made frames and then add dropouts etc, and then finish the frame. There are specific rules on bikes, based on % of EU components.
I believe campag is all eu, with factories in Italy and Romania
Look on You Tube- Daccordi frames are literally built by hand in Italy. Not sure where the Coloumbus tubes now come from
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 01 February, 2021, 03:56:26 pm
No problems with Bikester in Germany.  B&M light delivered today by UPS, no extra charges, appears to have come via a warehouse in the east of England.  31% cheaper than SJSC including postage.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 01 February, 2021, 07:19:56 pm
No problems with Bikester in Germany.  B&M light delivered today by UPS, no extra charges, appears to have come via a warehouse in the east of England.  31% cheaper than SJSC including postage.
:thumbsup:
I see they're also advertising products over £135 as incl duties and taxes, so I think they must be importing on a business to business basis and supplying to you as an internal transaction.  This is maybe also why they're operating a .uk website.
I had a camping mat from Alpine Trek delivered on Saturday, they seem to be doing the same and also have a .uk website.  Arrived within the week, but the tracking didn't move for two days.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 February, 2021, 03:58:47 pm

Just had to order a new arm for my glasses from Optilabs. I think I may have been charged UK VAT. But it's low enough I don't care, I just need the replacement part asap.

Let's see how fast it can get from Croydon to Amsterdam... And how much they'll sting me for shipping...

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hbunnet on 08 February, 2021, 05:26:11 pm

Just had to order a new arm for my glasses from Optilabs. I think I may have been charged UK VAT. But it's low enough I don't care, I just need the replacement part asap.

That's useful, it hadn't occurred to me they would do spare legs.  I have home made splinted specs legs.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 February, 2021, 10:53:34 am

It's Saturday, I still don't have the spare part for my glasses.

It was put in the post on Tuesday. I was charged £14 for the postage.

On Thursday at 2040 it was presented to customs. PostNL didn't recognise the tracking number on it's website. So I tried to contact them on twitter. I got the following response:

Quote

Hi there! I understand you want to know more about your parcel. I see your parcel has arrived in the Netherlands yesterday and is now at customs. You will be able to follow the parcel with the same tracking number once customs hands it over us. Customs clearance usually takes maximum 8-14 days. but it can take up to a month if customs wants to do an extensive investigation. I would therefore suggest you to wait for at least two weeks. If you still haven't received the parcel by then please contact us again so we can see if there's any update. Best regards,

8-14 days. EIGHT TO FOURTEEN DAYS!!! for something that used to take 48 hours to ship, give or take.

At 0344 today (Saturday) it was shown as having cleared customs. YAY!

At 0345 it's shown as incorrect address, return to sender. SHIT!

it then has a couple of more steps, before 0347 its as "Arrived at Delivery office"

I hope that means I'll get it today or Monday. But I don't know.

Argh.

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 February, 2021, 11:45:36 am
Are arms for glasses very different from pair to pair? I'm guessing they must be or you could have got some in Amsterdam.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 February, 2021, 11:53:37 am
Are arms for glasses very different from pair to pair? I'm guessing they must be or you could have got some in Amsterdam.

Yes, these are cycling glasses, and are specifically moulded for the design:

https://www.optilabs.com/product/rascal/

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: grams on 13 February, 2021, 01:30:37 pm
Are arms for glasses very different from pair to pair? I'm guessing they must be or you could have got some in Amsterdam.

I have a drawer full of bits of pairs of glasses. The hinges are clearly designed by the same people who designed electronic gadget charger connectors pre Micro USB.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 16 February, 2021, 09:16:08 pm

Package was delivered this afternoon at about half 2.

Postnl had put a new address label over the top of the handwriten one from Optilabs. All the information important information was correct, so dunno why that was such an issue. More worrying tho is that the CN22 was filled in wrong. They listed the value as £165, for what was actually £20. I could have been stung with a huge vat and customs charge.

Have let Optilabs know.

Yay, glasses are repaired! I can see again.

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 March, 2021, 12:42:42 am

Was using one of the big german bike part shops today. Had put about €80 of stuff in the basket, went to hit checkout. And it flashes up "There is a €175 minimum order". Wtf? I login, then try again. No issue at all. Turns out the site seemed to think I was in the Uk (I was looking at it in English, so a reasonable assumption), but once logged in and it saw the Dutch delivery address, it was fine.

What a bloody mess.

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 14 March, 2021, 01:55:06 am

Was using one of the big german bike part shops today. Had put about €80 of stuff in the basket, went to hit checkout. And it flashes up "There is a €175 minimum order".
Which shop?  It might be worth knowing that they'll ship to the UK even with a minimum order.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hatler on 14 March, 2021, 10:11:04 am
From https://www.wheel-parts.shop/en/

Dear UK Client,

Because of the Brexit we had to update our shipping conditions to the UK.

It is now possible to get free shipping for orders above 120 euro.
Below 120 euro the shipping costs is 19 euro. This shipment is with UPS Standard.

The fastest shipment is UPS Express and this costs is 25 euro.

Summarizing:
Orders above €120,- is free shipping with UPS Standard
Orders below €120,- is 19 euro shipment with UPS Standard

UPS Express is €25,-

With best regards,
Sipke Zijlstra
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hatler on 14 March, 2021, 10:14:34 am
I had a £100 order of stuff from Bike Inn (Spanish) (https://www.bikeinn.com/bike) in the last week or so and there were no hidden charges, though they did charge (a not unreasonable amount for) shipping.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 March, 2021, 10:21:34 am

Was using one of the big german bike part shops today. Had put about €80 of stuff in the basket, went to hit checkout. And it flashes up "There is a €175 minimum order".
Which shop?  It might be worth knowing that they'll ship to the UK even with a minimum order.

This one:
https://bike-discount.de (https://bike-discount.de)

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: hatler on 14 March, 2021, 10:47:13 am

Was using one of the big german bike part shops today. Had put about €80 of stuff in the basket, went to hit checkout. And it flashes up "There is a €175 minimum order".
Which shop?  It might be worth knowing that they'll ship to the UK even with a minimum order.

This one:
(https://bike-discount.de)

J
Bike Discount (https://bike-discount.de)
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rafletcher on 14 March, 2021, 10:47:30 am

Was using one of the big german bike part shops today. Had put about €80 of stuff in the basket, went to hit checkout. And it flashes up "There is a €175 minimum order".
Which shop?  It might be worth knowing that they'll ship to the UK even with a minimum order.

This one:
(https://bike-discount.de)

J

Interestingly I can’t see that image (safari on iPad), it was only when I quoted you that the text line became visible. For others it’s https://www.bike-discount.de/

ETA x-post with Hatler
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 March, 2021, 10:48:26 am
oops

Fixed.

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 14 March, 2021, 10:51:45 am

This one:
https://bike-discount.de (https://bike-discount.de)

J
Thanks
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 March, 2021, 10:55:03 am

They were the only place I could find with chain rings in stock for my chainset, so I ordered 2 of each. Hopefully that will last me a couple of dozen megametres.

The supply chain issues in the bike industry are getting really annoying.

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rafletcher on 14 March, 2021, 11:09:56 am
Bike24 is shipping to NI now, but still not to the rest of the UK.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Tim Hall on 15 March, 2021, 10:32:07 pm
Tipped off by Rogerzilla in this very thread, I ordered a light from Bikester. No minimum order thing, minimal hassle. It's being shipped from ABROAD, Germany to be precise, despite the site being a .co.uk entity.

Useful things in their FAQ include:

Will I still be able to shop at Bikester after the Brexit transition period ends on 31st December 2020?

Yes, our UK shop will continue trading in 2021.

Will delivery of my package be delayed in case of a hard Brexit?

We expect significant delays with deliveries because of restrictions due to COVID-19. Additional delays are to be expected in case of a hard Brexit. Should your order take longer to arrive, we kindly ask for your patience and understanding.

Looking at the UPS tracker for my package I see:
Quote
Your package is delayed due to a Brexit related disruption. We are adjusting delivery plans as quickly as possible.
Scheduled for this Friday. I'll see how it goes
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: nikki on 16 March, 2021, 09:01:13 am
I placed a big order with Bikester a few weeks ago, not realising it would be shipped from Germany.

I had Brexit delays coming up on the tracking page for what seemed like a small eternity, but it arrived on the scheduled date.
(Or the day before, depending on how you look at it: they did nudge the delivery date by one day, but ended up delivering the day before that, as originally intended.)


~~~
A friend has also had some success with https://www.mantel.com being able to supply components she couldn't source from within the UK.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 16 March, 2021, 09:54:40 am
Yep, have used Bikester, Mantel and XXCycle (sounds like a pr0n store) in 2021 with no extra charges or nasty surprises.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: nikki on 16 March, 2021, 11:10:41 am
Considering I'm still waiting for a shop in Wigan to give me the bottom bracket I ordered at about the same time, EU-based suppliers are winning on customer service so far!
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: giropaul on 19 March, 2021, 09:02:03 am
Considering I'm still waiting for a shop in Wigan to give me the bottom bracket I ordered at about the same time, EU-based suppliers are winning on customer service so far!

Shops in the U.K. are finding it incredibly difficult to source parts and bikes etc.
Shimano ( if that’s what you are waiting for) have had huge production problems ( including I gather Covid closures and a factory fire). Then we have the Brexit barriers to getting stuff into the U.K. . It isn’t the shops’ fault, they’re just incredibly frustrated.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: nikki on 19 March, 2021, 04:05:46 pm
This lot have sent me a lower spec bottom bracket and aren't engaging in any conversation about what they're going to do about it or if they can supply the item I ordered. That's quite frustrating. If they say it's not in stock and make the refund I can move on and deal with it, but as it is they're just making the situation worse.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Tim Hall on 19 March, 2021, 04:16:54 pm
Tipped off by Rogerzilla in this very thread, I ordered a light from Bikester. No minimum order thing, minimal hassle. It's being shipped from ABROAD, Germany to be precise, despite the site being a .co.uk entity.

Useful things in their FAQ include:

Will I still be able to shop at Bikester after the Brexit transition period ends on 31st December 2020?

Yes, our UK shop will continue trading in 2021.

Will delivery of my package be delayed in case of a hard Brexit?

We expect significant delays with deliveries because of restrictions due to COVID-19. Additional delays are to be expected in case of a hard Brexit. Should your order take longer to arrive, we kindly ask for your patience and understanding.

Looking at the UPS tracker for my package I see:
Quote
Your package is delayed due to a Brexit related disruption. We are adjusting delivery plans as quickly as possible.
Scheduled for this Friday. I'll see how it goes
Arrived yesterday. That's a day before it was scheduled. I like this.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 March, 2021, 09:13:29 am

The no tarriffs on trade between UK and EU doesn't seem to have made it to UPS. I just got charged ~€5 for
"Tax" on an €37 nut I ordered from the UK. Plus another ~€2.50 in VAT. And of course, UPS charged me €13 to collect this money...

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 23 March, 2021, 09:24:17 am

The no tarriffs on trade between UK and EU doesn't seem to have made it to UPS. I just got charged ~€5 for
"Tax" on an €37 nut I ordered from the UK. Plus another ~€2.50 in VAT. And of course, UPS charged me €13 to collect this money...

J
Was it a nut from say Brazil being sold in the U.K. but not grown here ?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 March, 2021, 09:26:28 am
Was it a nut from say Brazil being sold in the U.K. but not grown here ?

No it was a custom machined lead screw nut made from CuSn5Zn5Pb5-C - CC491K...

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 23 March, 2021, 09:33:06 am
Was it a nut from say Brazil being sold in the U.K. but not grown here ?

No it was a custom machined lead screw nut made from CuSn5Zn5Pb5-C - CC491K...

J
Perhaps the machining was outsourced to Brazil
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 23 March, 2021, 10:59:00 am
Quote from: quixoticgeek link=topic=116873.msg2605581#msg2605581
No it was a custom machined lead screw nut made from CuSn5Zn5Pb5-C - CC491K...
Those marketing people have found a new way to describe monkey metal!
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 23 March, 2021, 12:21:54 pm

The no tarriffs on trade between UK and EU doesn't seem to have made it to UPS. I just got charged ~€5 for
"Tax" on an €37 nut I ordered from the UK. Plus another ~€2.50 in VAT. And of course, UPS charged me €13 to collect this money...

J
Someone has messed up, import tax shouldn't be applied to consumer goods under £135 and the VAT should have been collected by the retailer for goods under that same value.  UPS should know this, I hope you've complained, you ought to at least get their fee back.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 March, 2021, 12:26:06 pm
Someone has messed up, import tax shouldn't be applied to consumer goods under £135 and the VAT should have been collected by the retailer for goods under that same value.  UPS should know this, I hope you've complained, you ought to at least get their fee back.

This is UK -> EU direction. So the retailer collecting VAT is not yet in effect. That takes effect on July 1st.

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Salvatore on 23 March, 2021, 12:37:20 pm
I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere
£2000 extra to import a bike from Poland, £1500 not to import it. (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/mar/22/bike-poland-brexit-customs-duty-vat)

It strikes me that buying a bike 3 days before the Brexit deadline was probably asking for trouble, but still.

 
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 23 March, 2021, 12:44:07 pm
Someone has messed up, import tax shouldn't be applied to consumer goods under £135 and the VAT should have been collected by the retailer for goods under that same value.  UPS should know this, I hope you've complained, you ought to at least get their fee back.

This is UK -> EU direction. So the retailer collecting VAT is not yet in effect. That takes effect on July 1st.

J
I'd forgotten that the VAT changes had been postponed, but I think the other points remain the same. 
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 23 March, 2021, 01:09:19 pm

The no tarriffs on trade between UK and EU doesn't seem to have made it to UPS. I just got charged ~€5 for
"Tax" on an €37 nut I ordered from the UK. Plus another ~€2.50 in VAT. And of course, UPS charged me €13 to collect this money...

J
Someone has messed up, import tax shouldn't be applied to consumer goods under £135 and the VAT should have been collected by the retailer for goods under that same value.  UPS should know this, I hope you've complained, you ought to at least get their fee back.
£135 is to do with vat treatment, not tariffs. There is no exemption for consumer goods. I would say if tariff has been charged either the product is not tariff exempt due to its origin or the exporter screwed up the paperwork (ie missing or incorrect EORI) or the delivery company fumbled.

Of course it could be that no tariff has been charged and   the 5 euros “tax” is the vat due in the destination country, 13 euros the handling charge, 2.50 euros vat on the handling charge ?
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 March, 2021, 01:38:42 pm
£135 is to do with vat treatment, not tariffs. There is no exemption for consumer goods. I would say if tariff has been charged either the product is not tariff exempt due to its origin or the exporter screwed up the paperwork (ie missing or incorrect EORI) or the delivery company fumbled.

Of course it could be that no tariff has been charged and   the 5 euros “tax” is the vat due in the destination country, 13 euros the handling charge, 2.50 euros vat on the handling charge ?

Yep, it works out as exactly 21% of €13.

I think if I purchase anything else from this supplier, I'll wait until after July 1st to do so...

J
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 23 March, 2021, 04:11:47 pm
£135 is to do with vat treatment, not tariffs. There is no exemption for consumer goods.
Customs Duty
You’ll be charged Customs Duty on all goods sent from outside the UK (or the UK and the EU if you’re in Northern Ireland) if they’re either:
excise goods
worth more than £135

https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty

I'm pretty sure that's applicable in both directions.


Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Davef on 23 March, 2021, 05:24:03 pm
£135 is to do with vat treatment, not tariffs. There is no exemption for consumer goods.
Customs Duty
You’ll be charged Customs Duty on all goods sent from outside the UK (or the UK and the EU if you’re in Northern Ireland) if they’re either:
excise goods
worth more than £135

https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty

I'm pretty sure that's applicable in both directions.
Thanks. I was not aware. I wonder if that is just a U.K. thing. I can’t see any mention of it on the eu side.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 March, 2021, 05:38:20 pm
£135 is to do with vat treatment, not tariffs. There is no exemption for consumer goods. I would say if tariff has been charged either the product is not tariff exempt due to its origin or the exporter screwed up the paperwork (ie missing or incorrect EORI) or the delivery company fumbled.

Of course it could be that no tariff has been charged and   the 5 euros “tax” is the vat due in the destination country, 13 euros the handling charge, 2.50 euros vat on the handling charge ?

Yep, it works out as exactly 21% of €13.

I think if I purchase anything else from this supplier, I'll wait until after July 1st to do so...

J
So you've been charged VAT on the VAT-collection fee? That has to be wrong. Not necessarily incorrect – you've been charged NL VAT on a service carried out within NL – but still "wrong".
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: Paul H on 23 March, 2021, 05:46:23 pm
£135 is to do with vat treatment, not tariffs. There is no exemption for consumer goods.
Customs Duty
You’ll be charged Customs Duty on all goods sent from outside the UK (or the UK and the EU if you’re in Northern Ireland) if they’re either:
excise goods
worth more than £135

https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty

I'm pretty sure that's applicable in both directions.
Thanks. I was not aware. I wonder if that is just a U.K. thing. I can’t see any mention of it on the eu side.
I wondered that myself, it does apply both ways, be a bit odd if it didn't:

Customs Duty is not due for goods, provided directly to the buyer when their value does not exceed 150 euros.
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/individuals/buying-goods-services-online-personal-use/buying-goods/buying-goods-online-coming-from-a-noneu-union-country_en
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: slugbait on 24 March, 2021, 08:27:27 pm
To present the view from the other side of the North Sea. My original plan was to not order stuff from the UK for a couple of months and wait for the Brexit dust to settle. But my beloved Alpkit Argonaut jacket really needed replacement after 3 years of almost continuous abuse. I bought the replacement last week and expected it to arrive somewhere in May.

It arrived within one week without any additional charges.

(Wiggle is still charging ridiculous delivery fees, however, even through their .nl-website.)
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: rogerzilla on 06 April, 2021, 08:09:28 am
Brooks still aren't taking orders from the UK, according to their webshite.

They apparently have a moronic distribution practice that involves making saddles here, shipping them to an Italian warehouse, then back again.  I assume they have been caught by the paperwork and VAT issues.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: DuncanM on 07 April, 2021, 01:38:14 pm
Brooks are owned by Selle Royal (since 2002). They also own Fizik, Crank Brothers, PedalEd and some other brands. I read somewhere that they have an Italian distribution hub through which all their products are despatched worldwide, hence the issues.
Title: Re: Rose bikes stops selling to the UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 06 July, 2021, 07:44:37 pm

I ordered a wind proof jacket from a UK based company, the person in the postroom wanted to make sure it was insured properly, and so put £250 on the value declaration. Not realising that I would be taxed on that value when it arrived here. So my €150 jacket arrived, and I got charged €73.88 to get it through customs. I phoned the company, and explained it all, they were very confused, and it took them a few days to chase down what had happened. Today they phoned back and agreed to refund the difference between what I should have paid, and what I did pay. So i got my €30 back.

I wonder how many other people buying stuff from the UK get hit by such things because those doing the packaging up just don't realised the implications of the paperwork they are doing.

J