Yet Another Cycling Forum

Off Topic => The Pub => Topic started by: grams on 10 August, 2021, 11:16:42 am

Title: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: grams on 10 August, 2021, 11:16:42 am
Ok next question: What items that are commonplace today are going to see quaint, weird or inexplicable in 30 years time?

(Obvious answer: internal combustion engines, hopefully)
Title: Re: Items now won't be there then
Post by: Jurek on 10 August, 2021, 11:20:27 am
Ok next question: What items that are commonplace today are going to see quaint, weird or inexplicable in 30 years time?

(Obvious answer: internal combustion engines, hopefully)
Landlines.
TV licence.
Title: Re: Items now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 10 August, 2021, 11:26:58 am
Ok next question: What items that are commonplace today are going to see quaint, weird or inexplicable in 30 years time?

Desktop computers, obviously.

I'm betting laptops will go the same way.
Title: Re: Items now won't be there then
Post by: Guy on 10 August, 2021, 11:27:09 am
Ok next question: What items that are commonplace today are going to see quaint, weird or inexplicable in 30 years time?


I've got my fingers crossed for "Tories"
Title: Re: Items now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 August, 2021, 11:36:25 am
Diesel trains, according to the people who run the railways.

Perhaps there will be a retro revival of CDs.

The Maldives.
Title: Re: Items now won't be there then
Post by: Pingu on 10 August, 2021, 11:45:35 am
Ok next question: What items that are commonplace today are going to see quaint, weird or inexplicable in 30 years time?

(Obvious answer: internal combustion engines, hopefully)
Landlines.
TV licence.

Should be another topic?

Anyway, banknotes and coins.
Title: Re: Items now won't be there then
Post by: Jurek on 10 August, 2021, 11:47:34 am
Ok next question: What items that are commonplace today are going to see quaint, weird or inexplicable in 30 years time?

(Obvious answer: internal combustion engines, hopefully)
Landlines.
TV licence.


Should be another topic?

Anyway, banknotes and coins.
Your probably right.
Title: Re: Items now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 10 August, 2021, 12:38:10 pm
Ok next question: What items that are commonplace today are going to see quaint, weird or inexplicable in 30 years time?

(Obvious answer: internal combustion engines, hopefully)
Can the mods split this topic?
Title: Re: Items now won't be there then
Post by: Mr Larrington on 10 August, 2021, 06:07:34 pm
Diesel trains, according to the people who run the railways.

I expect they’ll persist for a long while yet in places like Leftpondia and Captain Cook's Mistake.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Diver300 on 10 August, 2021, 06:11:20 pm
Clutch pedals.

(I'm fairly sure that they will vanish a long time before steering wheels)
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Feanor on 10 August, 2021, 06:12:23 pm
Crocs

"What, they put these slimy slippery plastic things on their feet? WTF were they thinking?"
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Paul H on 10 August, 2021, 06:30:20 pm
Non electric hybrid bikes.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Beardy on 10 August, 2021, 07:35:47 pm
The Netherlands, or the majority of it in any case.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: rogerzilla on 10 August, 2021, 07:49:34 pm
This reminds me of a Star Trek joke which is unrepeatable, well, anywhere.

Anyway, the NHS.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: cygnet on 10 August, 2021, 09:25:50 pm
USB flash drives
Paperclips  :o
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: quixoticgeek on 10 August, 2021, 10:26:03 pm

Breathable air...

Easily accessible drinking water...

Healthcare...

governments...

I may be pessimistic, but my retirement plan is societal collapse...

J
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Mr Larrington on 11 August, 2021, 01:09:33 am
Retirement plan?  Murder the most odious Tory you can get your hands on and spend the rest of your natural getting three meals a day and a nice cosy cell* with hot and cold running drugs all courtesy of the taxpayer.

* According to the D**ly M**l
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: T42 on 11 August, 2021, 08:31:52 am

Breathable air...

Easily accessible drinking water...

Healthcare...

governments...

I may be pessimistic, but my retirement plan is societal collapse...

J

Already retired, my plan is to die before all that.  Today's kids are all very well with their "OK, boomer" but by being born in the mid/late 40s MrsT and I managed to hit the sweet spot, so all the above are still readily available (this year at least).  The OK-boomerists are going to cop it, and shove it up 'em for being so bloody cheeky.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 11 August, 2021, 08:53:45 am
I wonder about rooftop TV aerials and satellite dishes. Won't the future all be streamed to us (& directly into our eyeballs)?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: grams on 11 August, 2021, 09:16:36 am
Yep. Living room TVs in general might go the way of the big living room stereo system.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 11 August, 2021, 09:26:59 am
Books.

Everything will be published in "e" form.  Some old nostalgic crusties and a few museums and libraries will maintain tonnes and tonnes of bound paper volumes purely for nostalgic and research purposes no doubt: but mostly, they will be gone.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 11 August, 2021, 09:30:51 am
I wonder about rooftop TV aerials and satellite dishes. Won't the future all be streamed to us (& directly into our eyeballs)?

We do not have any rooftop reception equipment.  All of our TV content is streamed through fibre and a small length of copper into the back of the smart TV which now has Freeview available in it's list of apps fed direct from the interwebs. 
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: archy on 11 August, 2021, 11:08:50 am
Houses above ground.  Mobile phones.

 
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 11 August, 2021, 11:25:33 am

Breathable air...

Easily accessible drinking water...

Healthcare...

governments...

I may be pessimistic, but my retirement plan is societal collapse...

J

This, pretty much.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 11 August, 2021, 11:31:33 am
Corded headphones

USB cables. Everything will use some horrendous wireless signal (like bluetooth, but prob worse and much less power-efficient).

Coal fires.

Personal computers (laptops or desktop). The IT world is shifting to thin client (see MS latest Windows versions).
That prediction might go completely wrong, and nearly everything shifts to distributed computing. However I doubt it. The power advantages of using centralised server centres are too great.


Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Jaded on 11 August, 2021, 11:38:34 am
Nearly already gone - digital cameras.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 11 August, 2021, 12:37:11 pm
Corded headphones
...

Oddly enough I was looking for a cable for my son to give him a hard link between his "wireless" headphones and his amp for when the battery in the headphones runs low but he still wants to listen.

My solution is to have more than one pair of headphones ...  🤔   🤣
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: archy on 11 August, 2021, 12:41:33 pm
People still have coal fires?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 11 August, 2021, 12:56:19 pm
The solid fuel burner for peat, coal and wood is still being installed in homes in the UK because it's seen as trendy.   Just not environmentally friendly trendy!
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: T42 on 11 August, 2021, 01:05:39 pm
Nearly already gone - digital cameras.

Mass-market P&S cameras, certainly, but serious digitals with good optics will be around for a good while yet.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: fboab on 11 August, 2021, 07:19:46 pm
People still have coal fires?
Woodburners, fire pits, chimneas and pizza ovens.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 11 August, 2021, 09:54:59 pm
Corded headphones

USB cables. Everything will use some horrendous wireless signal (like bluetooth, but prob worse and much less power-efficient).

Coal fires.

Personal computers (laptops or desktop). The IT world is shifting to thin client (see MS latest Windows versions).
That prediction might go completely wrong, and nearly everything shifts to distributed computing. However I doubt it. The power advantages of using centralised server centres are too great.

People have been predicting thin clients since the bigging with not much predictive success. I think people will still use full-format PCs, a skinny ultrabook is still far more utile than any amount of jabbing at a tablet.

Cable in general will go, they're a pain in the ass. Tesla was right in the end.

Anything than can be done on a smart phone will kill the standalone. Digital cameras (other than high end), sat-navs, etc.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 11 August, 2021, 11:04:25 pm
Shirley the move towards doing everything on a smartphone/tablet is basically thin clients on the sly.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Jaded on 11 August, 2021, 11:07:54 pm
Hedgehogs.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Diver300 on 11 August, 2021, 11:10:38 pm
Nearly already gone - digital cameras.
Aren't they just incorporated into phones? They still exist, just not as a separate item.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: grams on 11 August, 2021, 11:15:17 pm
The web is the closest we've come to thin clients on the sly (i.e. software downloaded on demand, nothing stored on the computer).

When Steve Jobs invented the smartphone He decided it shouldn't have third party apps and everything else would be on the web.

Public pressure made that untenable, so clearly the world wants fat clients.

(well, at least the world without even 3G did)
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: grams on 11 August, 2021, 11:18:56 pm
Aren't they just incorporated into phones? They still exist, just not as a separate item.

A device that can take pictures and videos but can't post them to TikTok - not even to Instagram - is definitely a curiosity that will befuddle future generations.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 11 August, 2021, 11:24:20 pm
Aren't they just incorporated into phones? They still exist, just not as a separate item.

A device that can take pictures and videos but can't post them to TikTok - not even to Instagram - is definitely a curiosity that will befuddle future generations.

GoPro.  But yes, it's only a matter of time before they get their own 6G SIM and InstaTok account.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Mr Larrington on 12 August, 2021, 12:04:50 am
There are still those of us who prefer a set of devices that do one thing well – take pictures, display e-books, navigate to the Ends of the Earth, ect and, moreover, ect – than lots of things slightly less well (or, in the case of my phone, very very badly).
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 12 August, 2021, 07:08:29 am
There are still those of us who prefer a set of devices that do one thing well – take pictures, display e-books, navigate to the Ends of the Earth, ect and, moreover, ect – than lots of things slightly less well (or, in the case of my phone, very very badly).
Indeed
I enjoy using a (film) camera, I enjoy reading on an ereader. I enjoy communicating using short wave radio (and the demise of morse has been predicted for decades)
But the enjoyment factor is not the same case as 'utility' - for most casual use cases the modern smart phone works perfectly well as a communicator, reader, and snapper.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: T42 on 12 August, 2021, 07:40:21 am
There are still those of us who prefer a set of devices that do one thing well – take pictures, display e-books, navigate to the Ends of the Earth, ect and, moreover, ect – than lots of things slightly less well (or, in the case of my phone, very very badly).

While the phone can do so many things badly that the bloody battery runs out in 4 hours.

While we're griping about phones, my first smartphone had a removable battery so that I could carry a spare. The last two have had "integrated" batteries.  The latest one has so-called turbo charging so that you can't plug it in overnight but have to keep an eye on it for half an hour in case their charging algorithm is bollocks and the battery gets fried.

Every fair from fair sometime declines
By chance, or marketing's fickle arseholery untrimmed.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 12 August, 2021, 07:52:55 am
Phone numbers?
Already I can tell my phone to 'call Ivor Bigun' if Ivor is in my contacts. Expand this out and the thing will ask you if you want Ivor in Belfast or Beijing. All we need is a personal identifier - like an IP address - and big brother follows us everywhere.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 August, 2021, 08:13:14 am
Aren't they just incorporated into phones? They still exist, just not as a separate item.

A device that can take pictures and videos but can't post them to TikTok - not even to Instagram - is definitely a curiosity that will befuddle future generations.

GoPro.  But yes, it's only a matter of time before they get their own 6G SIM and InstaTok account.
Strava, RWGPS, Komoot etc branching out to become social media with added nav features.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: archy on 12 August, 2021, 08:20:58 am
Books.

Everything will be published in "e" form.  Some old nostalgic crusties and a few museums and libraries will maintain tonnes and tonnes of bound paper volumes purely for nostalgic and research purposes no doubt: but mostly, they will be gone.

Is Fahrenheit 451 now an e-book?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 12 August, 2021, 09:15:08 am
Aren't they just incorporated into phones? They still exist, just not as a separate item.

A device that can take pictures and videos but can't post them to TikTok - not even to Instagram - is definitely a curiosity that will befuddle future generations.

GoPro.  But yes, it's only a matter of time before they get their own 6G SIM and InstaTok account.

DJI already make a very compact pocket action camera which is a compact handheld gimbal with an equally compact camera head unit.  It doesn't take much of a leap of imagination to see the potential for an eSIM enabled smartwatch body which unclips from it's wrist cradle and clips into a similarly sized small gimbal for filming and instant sharing.  I give it 5 years.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 12 August, 2021, 09:39:21 am
Shirley the move towards doing everything on a smartphone/tablet is basically thin clients on the sly.
Yes - and other areas of computing are moving over to thin client.

TBH, I thought that the concept was dead over a decade ago. Desktops had so much processing power. But now the demand is on different types of computing; big number crunching for machine learning apps, specialised number crunching for graphics for example.

This is all much more efficiently handled by specialised shared resources. In a data centre model those specialised resources can be spun up on demand (particularly with the event of VM for everything and FPGA in the data centre). Heck, some of it is even handled in the network cards, never even makes it to the destination computer.

Gaming is gradually moving to thin client model. The uber-powerful graphics cards required to calculate and render games will die out. They are proportionally too damn expensive (compared to the motherboards and CPU)!

 
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: rogerzilla on 12 August, 2021, 09:43:33 am
Books.

Everything will be published in "e" form.  Some old nostalgic crusties and a few museums and libraries will maintain tonnes and tonnes of bound paper volumes purely for nostalgic and research purposes no doubt: but mostly, they will be gone.

Is Fahrenheit 451 now an e-book?
I read it on a Kindle.  Sub-John Wyndham, tbh.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 August, 2021, 10:00:03 am
Books.

Everything will be published in "e" form.  Some old nostalgic crusties and a few museums and libraries will maintain tonnes and tonnes of bound paper volumes purely for nostalgic and research purposes no doubt: but mostly, they will be gone.

Is Fahrenheit 451 now an e-book?
I read it on a Kindle.  Sub-John Wyndham, tbh.
I'd put it on Tinder.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 12 August, 2021, 10:57:50 am
Shirley the move towards doing everything on a smartphone/tablet is basically thin clients on the sly.
Yes - and other areas of computing are moving over to thin client.

TBH, I thought that the concept was dead over a decade ago. Desktops had so much processing power. But now the demand is on different types of computing; big number crunching for machine learning apps, specialised number crunching for graphics for example.

This is all much more efficiently handled by specialised shared resources. In a data centre model those specialised resources can be spun up on demand (particularly with the event of VM for everything and FPGA in the data centre). Heck, some of it is even handled in the network cards, never even makes it to the destination computer.

Gaming is gradually moving to thin client model. The uber-powerful graphics cards required to calculate and render games will die out. They are proportionally too damn expensive (compared to the motherboards and CPU)!

I think while broadly true for storage and larger processing capacity, the average cheap laptop already offers more power than most people need, they don't need to offload to the cloud. Certainly for work, we just spin something with the required spec up on Amazon. I think it's probably a case of semantics.

I think what also will disappear is people who complain they don't have a capable smartphone, of course...
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 August, 2021, 11:29:26 am
I think what also will disappear is people who complain they don't have a capable smartphone, of course...
I don't think so. My phone's seven or eight years old and there are various things it won't do cos it's running an old version of Android. In some cases this might be a blessing in disguise (it won't run the NHS Covid app) but sometimes it's definitely not. So I buy a new one – and in seven or eight years it will be outdated again. I don't think everyone is going to be getting a new phone every other year, for all sorts of reasons.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 12 August, 2021, 11:49:46 am
Yeah, but you're the one dying out.

Having a fairly modern smart device is ubiquitous for anyone under the age of thirty these days, and honestly, the scope of such devices is amazing. The capability window has, like for computers, grown – as they become more powerful, there's no reason why a phone several years old won't be perfectly functional. But there will be fewer people waving their twenty-year-old Nokia at you and humpfing about smartphones.

Phone updates these days are incremental, I only update every half-decade or so.
Title: Re: Items now won't be there then
Post by: Woofage on 12 August, 2021, 12:00:06 pm

banknotes and coins.

Coins maybe, but I don't think banknotes will go. As long as there are men* in positions of power who wish to conceal their dodgy dealings there will always exist a need for traditional cash.

* they're usually men. My pronoun choice was deliberate.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 August, 2021, 12:03:26 pm
Yeah, but you're the one dying out.

Having a fairly modern smart device is ubiquitous for anyone under the age of thirty these days, and honestly, the scope of such devices is amazing. The capability window has, like for computers, grown – as they become more powerful, there's no reason why a phone several years old won't be perfectly functional. But there will be fewer people waving their twenty-year-old Nokia at you and humpfing about smartphones.

Phone updates these days are incremental, I only update every half-decade or so.
It's not the phone itself though, it's the OS. If next year's apps were compatible with last year's OS then it would all work, but I don't see any reason why that should become the case.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: grams on 12 August, 2021, 12:05:24 pm
But there will be fewer people waving their twenty-year-old Nokia at you and humpfing about smartphones.

They wave their 10 year old smartphone at you and humpf about lack of app support and terrible battery life. "But it still works perfectly" they exclaim.

The latest one has so-called turbo charging so that you can't plug it in overnight but have to keep an eye on it for half an hour in case their charging algorithm is bollocks and the battery gets fried.

Have devices that require user intervention to prevent overcharging *ever* been a thing? Maybe in the worst days of early NiCads?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 12 August, 2021, 12:08:42 pm
Support is usually several years now, this computer is c2015 and runs the latest MacOS, I have a 2012 iPad that runs an older iOS and is admittedly failing to run a lot of newer and updated apps. It sucks for hardware manufacturers, of course. I won't cry myself to sleep.

But there's probably a point in they wave their 10 year old smartphone at you and humpf about lack of app support and terrible battery life. "But it still works perfectly" they exclaim.
Title: Re: Items now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 12 August, 2021, 12:13:54 pm

banknotes and coins.

Coins maybe, but I don't think banknotes will go. As long as there are men* in positions of power who wish to conceal their dodgy dealings there will always exist a need for traditional cash.

* they're usually men. My pronoun choice was deliberate.
I thought they just used Bitcoin these days.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: archy on 12 August, 2021, 01:19:40 pm
The timescale was 3 decades.

Going back 3 decades we just got the WWW.  In that time it has changed the developed world.  Tech is moving faster than that now so I would suggest anything is possible in another 3 decades. 

One area of research that will produce dividends is exploration of organic computers, of which the human brain is an example.  Once it is possible to develop that area of expertise the potential for change is very large indeed.  Moore's law will be in the slow lane.
Title: Re: Items now won't be there then
Post by: Woofage on 12 August, 2021, 01:47:06 pm

banknotes and coins.

Coins maybe, but I don't think banknotes will go. As long as there are men* in positions of power who wish to conceal their dodgy dealings there will always exist a need for traditional cash.

* they're usually men. My pronoun choice was deliberate.
I thought they just used Bitcoin these days.

Aye, you're probably right. I still think that the folding stuff will be around for quite some time though.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: T42 on 12 August, 2021, 02:08:02 pm
The latest one has so-called turbo charging so that you can't plug it in overnight but have to keep an eye on it for half an hour in case their charging algorithm is bollocks and the battery gets fried.

Have devices that require user intervention to prevent overcharging *ever* been a thing? Maybe in the worst days of early NiCads?

My first laptop, ca. Y2K:  I left it plugged in all the time and the battery died. Maybe it wasn't overcharged but simply taken to 100% too often for its own good, but it was still muttonsville.
Title: Re: Items now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 August, 2021, 02:11:01 pm

banknotes and coins.

Coins maybe, but I don't think banknotes will go. As long as there are men* in positions of power who wish to conceal their dodgy dealings there will always exist a need for traditional cash.

* they're usually men. My pronoun choice was deliberate.
I thought they just used Bitcoin these days.

Aye, you're probably right. I still think that the folding stuff will be around for quite some time though.
It's hard to make a rhyme with coin to match "holding folding".
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 12 August, 2021, 11:48:01 pm
Antibiotics.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Jaded on 12 August, 2021, 11:50:12 pm
 
Antibiotics.

 :thumbsup:   :-\
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Jaded on 12 August, 2021, 11:52:26 pm
The timescale was 3 decades.

Going back 3 decades we just got the WWW.  In that time it has changed the developed world.  Tech is moving faster than that now so I would suggest anything is possible in another 3 decades. 

One area of research that will produce dividends is exploration of organic computers, of which the human brain is an example.  Once it is possible to develop that area of expertise the potential for change is very large indeed.  Moore's law will be in the slow lane.

Anything is possible in three decades.

As long as it can cope with apocalyptical weather and mass extinction.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Diver300 on 13 August, 2021, 07:50:24 am
Have devices that require user intervention to prevent overcharging *ever* been a thing? Maybe in the worst days of early NiCads?
https://www.halfords.com/motoring/battery-maintenance/battery-chargers/halfords-up-to-1.8l-car-battery-charger-329059.html (https://www.halfords.com/motoring/battery-maintenance/battery-chargers/halfords-up-to-1.8l-car-battery-charger-329059.html) In spite of the availability of cheap semiconductors, that sort of battery charger still exists, and will degrade a car battery if left long term.

Of course, having a battery charger rating of 1.8 litres* rather than a maximum current would be a serious warning sign to me of tat.

*about 3 and a bit pints, which is just as irrelevant to charger ratings as 1.8 litres.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 August, 2021, 11:20:14 am
Calculators as standalone devices. You can make funny words on all sorts of things nowadays.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Mr Larrington on 13 August, 2021, 11:40:49 am
The latest one has so-called turbo charging so that you can't plug it in overnight but have to keep an eye on it for half an hour in case their charging algorithm is bollocks and the battery gets fried.

Have devices that require user intervention to prevent overcharging *ever* been a thing? Maybe in the worst days of early NiCads?

My first laptop, ca. Y2K:  I left it plugged in all the time and the battery died. Maybe it wasn't overcharged but simply taken to 100% too often for its own good, but it was still muttonsville.

My 2009-era Asus Eee PC fairly quickly reached the stage of being unable to boot on battery power alone.  I was mildly afrit that some airport security womble would ask me to prove it really was a working Babbage-Engine rather than a bomb.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 August, 2021, 03:34:50 pm
The magnetic strip on bank cards. And probably bank cards themselves.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: rafletcher on 14 August, 2021, 05:15:19 pm
The magnetic strip on bank cards. And probably bank cards themselves.

Already facial recognition is being used to take payment direct from bank accounts in some Amazon shops. And in  China to take fines from people misusing the recycling bins or jaywalking.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 August, 2021, 05:18:21 pm
The magnetic strip on bank cards. And probably bank cards themselves.

Already facial recognition is being used to take payment direct from bank accounts in some Amazon shops. And in  China to take fines from people misusing the recycling bins or jaywalking.
Wow. And I was only thinking of phones and 'wearables'.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Basil on 14 August, 2021, 06:49:49 pm
Public phone boxes.
Actually this may be in the wrong thread as I don't think I have seen a working one for some years.
There are some in the surrounding smaller villages that have been painted yellow. These contain defibrillators.

Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: SteveC on 14 August, 2021, 07:23:42 pm
Public phone boxes.
Actually this may be in the wrong thread as I don't think I have seen a working one for some years.
There are some in the surrounding smaller villages that have been painted yellow. These contain defibrillators.
The one in our village has a defibrillator, but is still red.
The one in the next village appears to have a garden in it, although I've not stopped for a good look.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Basil on 14 August, 2021, 07:31:01 pm
Some time back a bloke in Brum rented one and turned it into a micro coffee shop. Not sure how successful he was.  I'm guessing not.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Efrogwr on 14 August, 2021, 08:46:48 pm
A friend bought the phone boxes in Llanberis; his wife runs a community art organisation that uses them for display.

They are not the smallest galleries in the world...
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 14 August, 2021, 09:21:21 pm
I wonder what the future of new car dealerships is.
Already there seems to be a move towards on-line configuration and ordering, plus click and collect.

Test drive? Well sir, you can hire this model for a week, the cost offset against your 'purchase'. (Which will of course be some sort of rental deal).
Trade in? Sounds of laughter echoes from the rafters, because everyone else just has their car on a 'scheme'.

No, the days of glossy showrooms staffed by bright young things in snappy suits, all on commission, are very much numbered.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: archy on 14 August, 2021, 10:04:50 pm
They'll become old car dealerships. 

There'll be a boom in auto-nostalgia any day now.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Mr Larrington on 15 August, 2021, 12:06:45 am
Time to SORN the Fast-Appreciating Future Classic and stash it in the back yard until there’s a market for old diseasel Škodas?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: grams on 15 August, 2021, 10:34:17 am
The bottom end of the secondhand car market is going to get interesting in the EV era. Are you really going to be able to pay £800 for a car with a usable battery, or will the recyclers and off-gridders who just want the battery outbid you?

Some time back a bloke in Brum rented one and turned it into a micro coffee shop. Not sure how successful he was.  I'm guessing not.

There’s several of these in London. They are (or were) reasonably successful.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: FifeingEejit on 15 August, 2021, 11:44:39 am
Shirley the move towards doing everything on a smartphone/tablet is basically thin clients on the sly.
Yes - and other areas of computing are moving over to thin client.

TBH, I thought that the concept was dead over a decade ago. Desktops had so much processing power. But now the demand is on different types of computing; big number crunching for machine learning apps, specialised number crunching for graphics for example.

This is all much more efficiently handled by specialised shared resources. In a data centre model those specialised resources can be spun up on demand (particularly with the event of VM for everything and FPGA in the data centre). Heck, some of it is even handled in the network cards, never even makes it to the destination computer.

Gaming is gradually moving to thin client model. The uber-powerful graphics cards required to calculate and render games will die out. They are proportionally too damn expensive (compared to the motherboards and CPU)!

I think while broadly true for storage and larger processing capacity, the average cheap laptop already offers more power than most people need, they don't need to offload to the cloud. Certainly for work, we just spin something with the required spec up on Amazon. I think it's probably a case of semantics.

I think what also will disappear is people who complain they don't have a capable smartphone, of course...
The problem is more provisioning and upgrading, its a nightmare enough that we need to finally kill off IE by the end of this year. And the roll out of Windows 7 and 10 took years because desktops needed upgraded.
Being able to have a fairly stable hardware estate that only needs replacing failed systems is one of the dreams of thin client. That sells it to organizations with a vast estate.


Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Morat on 16 August, 2021, 09:30:24 pm
I wonder about rooftop TV aerials and satellite dishes. Won't the future all be streamed to us (& directly into our eyeballs)?

It's all streaming in Yorkshire now - we're ahead of the curve!!

(thanks to a fire at the Bilsdale transmitter)
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: archy on 17 August, 2021, 08:13:06 am
Snow
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 17 August, 2021, 09:12:08 am
beef-based bovril

Paper notebooks. I think they'll die out and be replaced by something like an e-ink Remarkable tablet.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 17 August, 2021, 09:47:18 am
Paper notebooks.

I am not as optimistic as mrcharly-YHT; I don't think they will be gone completely. Sorry.
Twenty years ago, 'the paperless office' was a really popular concept. Everyone laughed, while trying to find space on their desk for teetering piles of A4.

I worked from home, for 18 month, without access to a printer. Didn't disrupt my work one bit.

Paper, apart from a medium for art, will pass.

It has taken remarkably little time for E-tickets to become commonplace. A bit over a decade of smartphones has achieved that. In another 10 years?

Paper will cease being part of everyday life, apart from something you use to wipe your arse (and not even then, if someone can work out how to use the 3 shells).
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 August, 2021, 11:33:50 am

The flaw in that is that unless a remarkable comes down a lot in price, businesses are going to say no.

I have a note book for work. I use it for making notes, IP addresses, connectivity diagrams, wiring lists, doodles. That sort of thing. I got it from the newsagent for about €3. And scanned the receipt to send to finance. It is very hard to compete on price when it comes to "I just want to make simple notes".

Also you'd be surprised how many paperless offices have a printer...

J
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 August, 2021, 12:01:19 pm
I use paper for noting down words I have to remember to spell consistently or need to recognize later: mostly names of people, villages in eg. Uganda, curiously named products (are we going with CamelCase for this? Do they want that capitalized?) and so on. But I rarely use a notebook. I've got loads of paper from envelopes and backs of invoices and delivery notes.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 17 August, 2021, 12:13:07 pm
I have a wipe-clean (fnarr) notebook, as I'm an inveterate scribbler. I can, should I wish to keep any notes, zap them with my phone to OneNote or similar before wiping the page.

I occasionally print stuff, I just find it easier to deal with text and layout on paper, though there's a big benefit of having a big screen that can display A4 spreads at actual size.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 17 August, 2021, 01:16:23 pm
Paper notebooks. I think they'll die out and be replaced by something like an e-ink Remarkable tablet.

I'm sure the arty types and Bullet Journal enthusiasts will ensure a continued market for the things.

Barakta still does the paper notes / checklist thing, but I think that's more about the limitations of $ork's computers than a particular love of the medium.

I occasionally grab some fail from the top of the printer to scribble on the back of when measuring things or working out pinouts or doing Actual Maths With Equations In or whatever, but I'd be happy with an electronic medium if I didn't have to be precious about potentially damaging it.  That said, about 50% of my paper use is to catch drips of glue.


But in general, Covid-19 was a giant leap forward for paperlessness.  All sorts of bureaucratic processes that previously required access to a printer have been quietly modified so they don't.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: davelodwig on 17 August, 2021, 01:25:50 pm
Paper notebooks. I think they'll die out and be replaced by something like an e-ink Remarkable tablet.

I'm sure the arty types and Bullet Journal enthusiasts will ensure a continued market for the things.

Barakta still does the paper notes / checklist thing, but I think that's more about the limitations of $ork's computers than a particular love of the medium.

I occasionally grab some fail from the top of the printer to scribble on the back of when measuring things or working out pinouts or doing Actual Maths With Equations In or whatever, but I'd be happy with an electronic medium if I didn't have to be precious about potentially damaging it.  That said, about 50% of my paper use is to catch drips of glue.


But in general, Covid-19 was a giant leap forward for paperlessness.  All sorts of bureaucratic processes that previously required access to a printer have been quietly modified so they don't.

I work in an environment where those sorts of tablets or e-ink pads are forbidden.

We all use paper notebooks, some with different classifications than others that never leave the building and end up in a shredder / incinerator eventually.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 17 August, 2021, 01:28:19 pm
I find the act of writing does something with my brain circuits that better installs the knowledge. There's some science behind this (forcing your brain to do something with the information rather than passively skim over it). The result is that I mostly wipe my notebook after a week or two. (I use a Rocketbook thing, which is overpriced for a notebook, but does what it says, and the scanning app is quite decent, even manages OCR, and is simple to wipe clean with a damp cloth.)
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 17 August, 2021, 01:41:28 pm
Paper notebooks. I think they'll die out and be replaced by something like an e-ink Remarkable tablet.

I'm sure the arty types and Bullet Journal enthusiasts will ensure a continued market for the things.

Barakta still does the paper notes / checklist thing, but I think that's more about the limitations of $ork's computers than a particular love of the medium.

I occasionally grab some fail from the top of the printer to scribble on the back of when measuring things or working out pinouts or doing Actual Maths With Equations In or whatever, but I'd be happy with an electronic medium if I didn't have to be precious about potentially damaging it.  That said, about 50% of my paper use is to catch drips of glue.


But in general, Covid-19 was a giant leap forward for paperlessness.  All sorts of bureaucratic processes that previously required access to a printer have been quietly modified so they don't.

I work in an environment where those sorts of tablets or e-ink pads are forbidden.

We all use paper notebooks, some with different classifications than others that never leave the building and end up in a shredder / incinerator eventually.
Ditto

I was surprised to find that a senior design engineer used a Remarkable and hadn't thought of the implications of his notes being stored on the cloud.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 17 August, 2021, 01:52:23 pm
I find the act of writing does something with my brain circuits that better installs the knowledge.

Lots of people find this, but it's by no means universal, and there's a circle of hell for educators who believe otherwise.

I find that the act of drawing characters distracts me from whatever it is I'm supposed to be paying attention to.  Typing is somewhat better, as I'm not struggling to keep up.  But in general I find taking notes is fine up till the point where I lose the plot, then all the effort goes into making notes in the hope that I'll be able to go back and make sense of the material later (which is often doomed, as the notes were made without the benefit of understanding).  If I devote all my attention to the subject matter, I'm less likely to lose the plot in the first place.

It's also a lot easier to hear someone when you can look at them.


On which note, may I propose the lecture as a prospective future item of yore.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Tim Hall on 17 August, 2021, 02:21:05 pm
I find the act of writing does something with my brain circuits that better installs the knowledge. There's some science behind this (forcing your brain to do something with the information rather than passively skim over it). The result is that I mostly wipe my notebook after a week or two. (I use a Rocketbook thing, which is overpriced for a notebook, but does what it says, and the scanning app is quite decent, even manages OCR, and is simple to wipe clean with a damp cloth.)
I do this when I write my shopping list (BEER, pies and Marmite) then accidentally leave the list at home.  By magic I remember what I need.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 17 August, 2021, 02:23:02 pm
I find the act of writing does something with my brain circuits that better installs the knowledge. There's some science behind this (forcing your brain to do something with the information rather than passively skim over it). The result is that I mostly wipe my notebook after a week or two. (I use a Rocketbook thing, which is overpriced for a notebook, but does what it says, and the scanning app is quite decent, even manages OCR, and is simple to wipe clean with a damp cloth.)
I do this when I write my shopping list (BEER, pies and Marmite) then accidentally leave the list at home.  By magic I remember what I need.

I have a similar system where I tell the computer to remind me of something when I'm next in a given room, and when it whistles at me I remember why without looking at the display.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Mr Larrington on 17 August, 2021, 03:19:55 pm
I use a paper notebook for jotting Stuffs down while in Abroad, where the FOREIGNS come from, and bits of scrap paper that have been through the printer for Stuffs at home.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 August, 2021, 03:30:09 pm
I work in an environment where those sorts of tablets or e-ink pads are forbidden.

We all use paper notebooks, some with different classifications than others that never leave the building and end up in a shredder / incinerator eventually.

I'm in a similar situation. The notebook has to be locked away at the end of the day. We also have to <redacted> as well as on occasion <redacted>. :p

J
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: FifeingEejit on 17 August, 2021, 03:38:24 pm
I use a paper notepad all the time.
I can't read my own writing...

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: fboab on 17 August, 2021, 03:48:17 pm
Writing cements knowledge for me.

Except the term for the reading/writing learning style. Which I failed to regurgitate under exam conditions.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 17 August, 2021, 04:49:25 pm
The magnetic strip on bank cards. And probably bank cards themselves.

Inevitably. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58206591)
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 17 August, 2021, 05:06:12 pm
Bankcards, I've not taken my wallet or cards out of the house for about 18 months.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 17 August, 2021, 05:28:45 pm
Bankcards, I've not taken my wallet or cards out of the house for about 18 months.

I use  ank cards and cash on a regular basis.  I see many customers doing likewise at the places that I frequent.  Only a very few of us proles in the provinces around Rugby seem to use phones or watches.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 17 August, 2021, 05:32:51 pm
Bankcards, I've not taken my wallet or cards out of the house for about 18 months.

I use  ank cards and cash on a regular basis.  I see many customers doing likewise at the places that I frequent.  Only a very few of us proles in the provinces around Rugby seem to use phones or watches.

To be fair, the people not using cards and cash will mostly be doing so from the privacy of their own web browser.

In the last 18 months, I've made in-person transactions at supermarkets, petril stations[1], a couple of DIY shed visits and, erm, that's it.  I've simply not been doing the sort of activities that result in the small in-person purchases where cash or contactless might normally be used.


[1] And this was with a fuel card, the associated money transaction happening automagically without requiring the physical presence of my dredit (TBAGO) card.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 17 August, 2021, 05:42:06 pm
I suspect bank and credit cards will go the way of cheques, a slow death. I see more and more people waving their phones, but really, any wearable dongle should do the trick, it doesn't even need to be fancy, a small fob on a keyring.

I think the big payment providers (Visa, Mastercard, Amex) also have numbered days.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Lightning Phil on 17 August, 2021, 05:48:15 pm
Bankcards, I've not taken my wallet or cards out of the house for about 18 months.

I use my cards every transaction outside now. Even pints in pub.  Cash rarely gets used. I don’t always carry a phone when out and when I do it’s not always a smartphone.

A contactless card is in effect a card shaped dongle when it comes to payment.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: SteveC on 17 August, 2021, 05:51:54 pm
The only times I use a card are buying petrol (as the pay at pump system needs a card) and occasionally in Tesco (as to get the Clubcard points you need to use their app as opposed to Apple Pay and I cannot link my card to the app (complicated story, their fault, can't be bothered to phone up and get it sorted out).
In a couple of weeks time we are going to an event, with a beer tent. Although the event is in the field next to the pub, their wifi won't reach that far so the beer tent is cash only. That will be a novelty.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 17 August, 2021, 05:54:33 pm
Yes, but there's more convenient format: rings, jewellery, buttplugs, forehead-implanted chips etc. that could be used to make payment. Thought to be honest, why not just biometrics, there's no real need to carry anything.

The first time I paid by watch, the woman behind the counter thought I was a cyborg. I may have failed to disillusion her.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: archy on 17 August, 2021, 06:05:24 pm
Let’s hope having to pay through the nose doesn’t catch on.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 August, 2021, 06:36:35 pm
A contactless card is in effect a card shaped dongle when it comes to payment.
Though don't phones etc bypass the card limit and the algorithm that forces you to enter your pin ever n transactions?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: SteveC on 17 August, 2021, 07:23:03 pm
A contactless card is in effect a card shaped dongle when it comes to payment.
Though don't phones etc bypass the card limit and the algorithm that forces you to enter your pin ever n transactions?
Correct. The limit on Apple Pay is £10,000 (or, I assume, whatever your credit limit is, if less than that).
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 17 August, 2021, 07:33:07 pm
Speaking of which I found out the other day that if you want to use the protection that comes with your credit card for a purchase don't use a third party like Google Pay (same rule for booking flights thru someone like Lastminute.com)
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 August, 2021, 07:59:29 pm
I suspect bank and credit cards will go the way of cheques, a slow death. I see more and more people waving their phones, but really, any wearable dongle should do the trick, it doesn't even need to be fancy, a small fob on a keyring.

I think the big payment providers (Visa, Mastercard, Amex) also have numbered days.

I think you're massively underestimating the world.

Card payments are common in some areas like .NL and .UK, but even just across the border into Germany, paying by cash is still the norm, a lot of smaller places don't take cards.

I don't think Visa and Mastercard will go away either. Even when you pay with your phone or watch, the backend processing systems all run on visa/mastercard. It's just obfuscated away somewhat.

Oh, and if you think you can get away with not needing your wallet, I welcome you to come to .NL. Even where you see payment terminals. Unless your card is vpay or Maestro, you're not paying. No your apply pay or google cash or whatever it's called won't work either, unless you're Dutch.

Except for areas with very high levels of tourist traffic, if your card is not maestro or vpay, it won't work. If it's got 16 digits on the front of the card. It will not work.

There are some places here that insist on card only, and as a result are locals only. And Dutch people don't realise that Maestro is basically a .NL only thing, But, that's the reality.

So yeah, cash ain't going nowhere. Bank cards ain't going nowhere. Sure in Shorditch a phone or watch is more common, but in the rest of the world. It's still cards and it's still cash.

J
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 17 August, 2021, 08:03:41 pm
TBH, the only reason the likes of Google and Apple are gaining serious traction for payment for things other apps and music downloads and such is because the USAnian banking system is so backwards about electronic payment.  Paying for an in-person purchase with your phone or watch isn't much different from paying with a card, but it's a hell of a lot more convenient than dealing with cheques.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 17 August, 2021, 08:17:19 pm
Speaking of which I found out the other day that if you want to use the protection that comes with your credit card for a purchase don't use a third party like Google Pay (same rule for booking flights thru someone like Lastminute.com)

That Mrs P. Is a very very good point. 

I have two devices which are in theory capable of nfc payments.  My Garmin wearable of course is all but useless in the UK as only a small number of UK banks work with Garmin Pay.  My phone has the ability to use both Samsung Pay and Google Pay but my bank isn't keen on either preferring it's own payment app.  As I don't do online banking I cannot use that app anyway but it's no loss because incredibly they send me a very useful free flat dongle every couple of years which seems to work at contactless terminals everywhere in spite of costing nothing and not requiring a 4g connection.  Amazing, innit!  🤣
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 August, 2021, 08:18:18 pm
That might be the reason in Usania, but in Ukania it seems to be mostly that phones are ubiquitous and ever present. If you've always got your phone with you, why carry a wallet? And it's not just Google and Apple acting as proxies for Mastercard and Visa. Various countries in Africa and Asia have had systems like mPesa for a decade or so.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 17 August, 2021, 08:24:01 pm
Speaking of which I found out the other day that if you want to use the protection that comes with your credit card for a purchase don't use a third party like Google Pay (same rule for booking flights thru someone like Lastminute.com)

That Mrs P. Is a very very good point. 

I have two devices which are in theory capable of nfc payments.  My Garmin wearable of course is all but useless in the UK as only a small number of UK banks work with Garmin Pay.  My phone has the ability to use both Samsung Pay and Google Pay but my bank isn't keen on either preferring it's own payment app.  As I don't do online banking I cannot use that app anyway but it's no loss because incredibly they send me a very useful free flat dongle every couple of years which seems to work at contactless terminals everywhere in spite of costing nothing and not requiring a 4g connection.  Amazing, innit!  🤣

Interesting, what bank is that?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: cygnet on 17 August, 2021, 08:27:02 pm
I think the big payment providers (Visa, Mastercard, Amex) also have numbered days.

That is a big shout (I think - although what became of Access - the flexible friend from my childhood adverts...)

And I was only going to add paper staples, to go with my earlier paper clips suggestion.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 17 August, 2021, 08:28:35 pm
Barclays.

I keep meaning to move but ironically the service is very good and the branch staff are incredibly professional and helpful. 
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 17 August, 2021, 08:40:19 pm
I think the big payment providers (Visa, Mastercard, Amex) also have numbered days.

That is a big shout (I think - although what became of Access - the flexible friend from my childhood adverts...)

And I was only going to add paper staples, to go with my earlier paper clips suggestion.

Access was just a collaborative brand set up by the likes of Lloyds, Nat West etc. to rival Barclaycard.   Although they had centralised processing in Southend iirc, Access cards were issued by the actual banks and customers dealt with their actual bank for day-to-day account management.   I think Access became part of Eurocard and Barclaycard even launched Eurocard products alongside their Visa products. 

Access as a brand disappeared in the nineties I believe.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: robgul on 17 August, 2021, 10:09:47 pm
I suspect bank and credit cards will go the way of cheques, a slow death. I see more and more people waving their phones, but really, any wearable dongle should do the trick, it doesn't even need to be fancy, a small fob on a keyring.

I think the big payment providers (Visa, Mastercard, Amex) also have numbered days.

Pingit was just that (run by Barclays) but it's been discontinued from July 2021 - no idea why, it was pretty good - I used mine for most transactions - replacing the card sized object but with exactly the same function and transaction limit.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Jaded on 17 August, 2021, 11:53:42 pm
I suspect bank and credit cards will go the way of cheques, a slow death. I see more and more people waving their phones, but really, any wearable dongle should do the trick, it doesn't even need to be fancy, a small fob on a keyring.

I think the big payment providers (Visa, Mastercard, Amex) also have numbered days.

I think you're massively underestimating the world.

Card payments are common in some areas like .NL and .UK, but even just across the border into Germany, paying by cash is still the norm, a lot of smaller places don't take cards.

I don't think Visa and Mastercard will go away either. Even when you pay with your phone or watch, the backend processing systems all run on visa/mastercard. It's just obfuscated away somewhat.

Oh, and if you think you can get away with not needing your wallet, I welcome you to come to .NL. Even where you see payment terminals. Unless your card is vpay or Maestro, you're not paying. No your apply pay or google cash or whatever it's called won't work either, unless you're Dutch.

Except for areas with very high levels of tourist traffic, if your card is not maestro or vpay, it won't work. If it's got 16 digits on the front of the card. It will not work.

There are some places here that insist on card only, and as a result are locals only. And Dutch people don't realise that Maestro is basically a .NL only thing, But, that's the reality.

So yeah, cash ain't going nowhere. Bank cards ain't going nowhere. Sure in Shorditch a phone or watch is more common, but in the rest of the world. It's still cards and it's still cash.

J

.NL sounds backward. Like US.

I used a ten pound note today. The first time I've used one for months.

Cash is dead, and, well, dead. Those that think it isn't just haven't got it yet.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 18 August, 2021, 09:55:46 am
I suspect bank and credit cards will go the way of cheques, a slow death. I see more and more people waving their phones, but really, any wearable dongle should do the trick, it doesn't even need to be fancy, a small fob on a keyring.

I think the big payment providers (Visa, Mastercard, Amex) also have numbered days.

I think you're massively underestimating the world.

Card payments are common in some areas like .NL and .UK, but even just across the border into Germany, paying by cash is still the norm, a lot of smaller places don't take cards.

I don't think Visa and Mastercard will go away either. Even when you pay with your phone or watch, the backend processing systems all run on visa/mastercard. It's just obfuscated away somewhat.

Oh, and if you think you can get away with not needing your wallet, I welcome you to come to .NL. Even where you see payment terminals. Unless your card is vpay or Maestro, you're not paying. No your apply pay or google cash or whatever it's called won't work either, unless you're Dutch.

Except for areas with very high levels of tourist traffic, if your card is not maestro or vpay, it won't work. If it's got 16 digits on the front of the card. It will not work.

There are some places here that insist on card only, and as a result are locals only. And Dutch people don't realise that Maestro is basically a .NL only thing, But, that's the reality.

So yeah, cash ain't going nowhere. Bank cards ain't going nowhere. Sure in Shorditch a phone or watch is more common, but in the rest of the world. It's still cards and it's still cash.

For my sins, I know a lot about payment processing (don't ask, it's as dull as it sounds) – certainly established banking systems have traction, but we've seen a lot of payment systems go, and they're all legacy. Travelling in the far-east and Africa, South America, etc. you'll see a lot more reliance on indirect payment and mobile phones, and not through established mechanisms.

It's axiomatic that once someone declares that something is not going away, the clock is ticking.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 August, 2021, 04:24:02 pm
I found I needed a pound coin last week. Not £1 in cash, it had to be a pound coin. I was at a campsite and found the showers were coin operated. By this time, there was no one on reception and I didn't fancy asking some other camper to change a tenner, which I did have on me – really didn't fancy carrying around £9 worth of coins. But there were sinks with hot water, I had soap and a flannel, I got clean enough.

£1 does seem a bit expensive for a shower, however you pay for it, but I guess the actual camping at £8 was less than many and hasn't gone up in a few years, so it's all swings and roundabouts, front loading and internal cross-subsidies or other econospeak.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 18 August, 2021, 04:38:22 pm
PAYG showers are a work of Stan.  Seriously, just make the camping more expensive.  Worth it not to be fumbling for coins naked with your eyes full of shampoo.  And the afore-mentioned change problem.  I stayed at one a couple of years ago which only took old 50ps, which the owner maintained a supply of as de-facto BRITISH version of those token things all the French campsites seem to use.

Anyway, presumably at some point you'll be fumbling with your phone or Apple watch naked with your eyes full of shampoo.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: De Sisti on 18 August, 2021, 05:23:06 pm
While the phone can do so many things badly that the bloody battery runs out in 4 hours.
Turn off apps to make the battery last longer. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 August, 2021, 05:59:09 pm
PAYG showers are a work of Stan.  Seriously, just make the camping more expensive.  Worth it not to be fumbling for coins naked with your eyes full of shampoo.  And the afore-mentioned change problem.  I stayed at one a couple of years ago which only took old 50ps, which the owner maintained a supply of as de-facto BRITISH version of those token things all the French campsites seem to use.

Anyway, presumably at some point you'll be fumbling with your phone or Apple watch naked with your eyes full of shampoo.
Yeah, certainly for convenience. Arguably PAYG can work out in the stingy camper's favour. All I need now is a way to wash my hair using a basin of hot water and a flannel! (Good argument for a camelbak style bladder probably!). Equally arguably if you're mixing up wild and site camping, it's precisely for showers that you'll be visiting sites, and if you're only site camping, it's quite likely you want a bit more comfort anyway. And as for fumbling with your phone in in the shower, how reliably waterproof is your phone?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Zed43 on 18 August, 2021, 07:59:36 pm
proper food in supermarkets
affordable air travel
wintersports
common courtesy
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: quixoticgeek on 18 August, 2021, 09:34:34 pm
proper food in supermarkets

You're making it too easy to make a joke about Dutch cuisine... :p

Quote
affordable air travel
wintersports
common courtesy

Eleven cities race...

J
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: quixoticgeek on 18 August, 2021, 09:37:40 pm
Anyway, presumably at some point you'll be fumbling with your phone or Apple watch naked with your eyes full of shampoo.

Every 5-6 transactions, you have to put in your pin when using my Dutch bankcard contactless.

In other news, the system is unable to tell the difference between a terminal with a pin pad, and one without. I discovered this when I had a very fully bladder, at a service station. I couldn't pay the 50c to pee, as I couldn't type my pin in on the non existent pinpad...

I've since had similar issues trying to buy a mars bar from a vending machine...

J
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: archy on 19 August, 2021, 06:10:33 am
Most of my camp site usage has been in France and I don’t recall seeing PAYG showers. Some hotels in remote regions ran out of hot water routinely.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 19 August, 2021, 07:15:10 am
Cash, the folding type at least is a simple promissory note.  There have been times that I have seen power cuts, belligerent pos machines, rejected cards, no signal, no battery, etc. resulting in cash only transactions.  In a "cashless" society people will have to revert to no trade or good old pen and paper and IOU's, otherwise known as promissory notes.  Oh, we're back to cash ...

The thing with cash is that it doesn't need an expensive device, an external network, electrickery or even a simple card, it is the ultimate and the simplest way to pay.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: tatanab on 19 August, 2021, 07:23:30 am
Most of my camp site usage has been in France and I don’t recall seeing PAYG showers. Some hotels in remote regions ran out of hot water routinely.
Agreed.  I usually camp for about 25 nights a year, in France.  Very, very rarely have there been PAYG showers, and then on very small sites.  The last was a tiny, basic (always my preference) site over in the Vosges about 6 years ago; and the one before that was about 3 years earlier just along the coast from St Malo.  So they are out there, just rare these days in my experience.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 August, 2021, 08:07:32 am
Anyway, presumably at some point you'll be fumbling with your phone or Apple watch naked with your eyes full of shampoo.

Every 5-6 transactions, you have to put in your pin when using my Dutch bankcard contactless.

In other news, the system is unable to tell the difference between a terminal with a pin pad, and one without. I discovered this when I had a very fully bladder, at a service station. I couldn't pay the 50c to pee, as I couldn't type my pin in on the non existent pinpad...

I've since had similar issues trying to buy a mars bar from a vending machine...

J
So how are you supposed to pay to pee (surely more annoying than paying to shower) at this service station? Does it also take cash? Swipe and sign?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 19 August, 2021, 08:33:34 am
Cheap meat

Hopefully, in 30 year's time the world's obsession with eating meat, particularly red meat, will have come to an end.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 19 August, 2021, 09:18:38 am
Fish, for that matter. It's a terrible, terrible industry. Imagine if you simple stripped forest bare, killing most of the life in the process, throwing away all the stuff you're not interested in and eating the rest. That's pretty much trawling.

But anyway, there won't be much fish left if the industry gets its way.

Fish farming, while it has problems, at least can be fairly sustainable.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: quixoticgeek on 19 August, 2021, 09:37:27 am
So how are you supposed to pay to pee (surely more annoying than paying to shower) at this service station? Does it also take cash? Swipe and sign?

Well, if it's not your 6th payment since you inserted a pin, then you just do contactless... note it will only accept Dutch cards... (Maestro/v-pay only).

J
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: DuncanM on 19 August, 2021, 09:55:08 am
Anyway, presumably at some point you'll be fumbling with your phone or Apple watch naked with your eyes full of shampoo.

Every 5-6 transactions, you have to put in your pin when using my Dutch bankcard contactless.

In other news, the system is unable to tell the difference between a terminal with a pin pad, and one without. I discovered this when I had a very fully bladder, at a service station. I couldn't pay the 50c to pee, as I couldn't type my pin in on the non existent pinpad...

I've since had similar issues trying to buy a mars bar from a vending machine...

J
That will be down to the POS* system not being configured correctly (or having insufficient config options).
*Point of Sale, though I'm sure you called it the other use for that acronym.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: archy on 19 August, 2021, 10:00:53 am
Anything you don't have to pay money to use.

Soon every UK home will be fitted with exit barriers so that a charge can levied for use of the streets.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: grams on 19 August, 2021, 10:03:21 am
Well, if it's not your 6th payment since you inserted a pin, then you just do contactless... note it will only accept Dutch cards... (Maestro/v-pay only).

Does that mean every sixth customer gets rejected?  Or do people do PIN transactions frequently enough to not normally encounter it? Or is it a misconfiguration by your bank?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 19 August, 2021, 10:28:59 am
Fish, for that matter. It's a terrible, terrible industry. Imagine if you simple stripped forest bare, killing most of the life in the process, throwing away all the stuff you're not interested in and eating the rest. That's pretty much trawling.

But anyway, there won't be much fish left if the industry gets its way.

Fish farming, while it has problems, at least can be fairly sustainable.

Fish farming, in the sea, in a bloody terrible industry. Nearly as destructive as bottom trawling.

Hence many countries moving the fish farms to facilities on land.


Governments have a lot to answer for. The fishermen in the hebrides requested that several areas be given a special designation, banning trawling. Scottish Government refused  >:(

Hand diving for scallops, catching langoustines, lobster, crab in creels is still an industry up here.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 19 August, 2021, 10:48:41 am
Fish farming in the sea can be sustainable, doesn't mean it is, but even then it occupies a small volume of the ocean so the effects are far more limited than a factory fleet of trawlers. There are, of course, lots of small scale, sustainable fishing operations that ought to be encouraged, but people want cheap fish protein (much of which goes into animal feed, so we're back with beef).

I'd quite happily eat protein grown in a vat, which ought to be the future.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Basil on 19 August, 2021, 11:12:34 am
The UK.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 19 August, 2021, 11:47:20 am
Fish farming in the sea can be sustainable, doesn't mean it is, but even then it occupies a small volume of the ocean so the effects are far more limited than a factory fleet of trawlers. There are, of course, lots of small scale, sustainable fishing operations that ought to be encouraged, but people want cheap fish protein (much of which goes into animal feed, so we're back with beef).

I'd quite happily eat protein grown in a vat, which ought to be the future.

Major topic digression.

Problems with in-sea fish farming:
Multiple concentrated pollutants. Insecticides used to control sea lice. Elevated nitrogen levels from concentrated food.
Escaped stock - these spread disease.

The sea bed below the salmon farms become dead, sterile. All seaweed dies off. Nothing lives in it.

We had months of mussel gathering being banned in the Loch here; elevated algae levels. Too much nitrogen (it isn't from farming, there is very little fertilizer used here).
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Jaded on 19 August, 2021, 11:55:16 am
Escaped fish don't have the natural home-finding that real fish have. There are some fish pens near here that have 100,000 fish in each one.

As mrc says, there are significant problems with fish farming in the sea.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 19 August, 2021, 02:08:27 pm
Coming back to card payments my experience in Brazil and a colleague's in Colombia is that virtually no one above basic income level uses cash.  We were all set with a load of Brazilian cash when we left heathrow and came back with most of it.

Both countries have moved to contactless credit cards as a way of combating fraud and to provide simple audit trails. we paid contactless for 2 caipirinhas on the beach at a small beach. This was a small bar on wheels with a terminal connected to the man's phone and the 4G system.  The need for wireless connectivity of course meant that the 4G was ubiquitous even when travelling on small roads between towns.

My colleague in Colombia had his tip in the hotel bar refused in cash and had to do it by card.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 19 August, 2021, 04:46:51 pm
Cheap meat

Hopefully, in 30 year's time the world's obsession with eating meat, particularly red meat, will have come to an end.

I reckon eating meat's going to go the same way as smoking.  A minority will continue doing it for a long time to come, but not doing so will become more socially normalised.

People will (already do) go to ABROAD, where the FOREIGNS come from, and find the different cultural attitudes to meat shocking.

Prolific meat-eating will become an iconic aspect of old films.  New historical films will dwell on the hamburgers and steaks the way a modern film might dwell on someone emptying all the ashtrays.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: quixoticgeek on 19 August, 2021, 07:17:41 pm

Does that mean every sixth customer gets rejected?  Or do people do PIN transactions frequently enough to not normally encounter it? Or is it a misconfiguration by your bank?

I goto supermarket, buy weeks shopping, insert pin.

Buy a train ticket, contactless

Buy a mars bar, contactless

Buy a new drill at the hardware store, contactless

Buy a new inner tube at the bike shop, contactless

Buy some fries on the way home, contactless

Try to pee at a service station with no pin terminal, payment declined, enter pin...

J
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 19 August, 2021, 07:34:16 pm
Coming back to card payments my experience in Brazil and a colleague's in Colombia is that virtually no one above basic income level uses cash.  We were all set with a load of Brazilian cash when we left heathrow and came back with most of it.

Both countries have moved to contactless credit cards as a way of combating fraud and to provide simple audit trails. we paid contactless for 2 caipirinhas on the beach at a small beach. This was a small bar on wheels with a terminal connected to the man's phone and the 4G system.  The need for wireless connectivity of course meant that the 4G was ubiquitous even when travelling on small roads between towns.

My colleague in Colombia had his tip in the hotel bar refused in cash and had to do it by card.

This is the case in much of the developing world – no one trusts local currency, it's either stealable or counterfeit to start out with, so it's electronic or US dollars.

This said, it never stopped the mothership's finance drones sending me memos about defying the corporate expense policy and not using my corporate card. Nowhere takes fucking Amex, and certainly not in the middle of bloody Africa. They're fine with Visa though.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: quixoticgeek on 19 August, 2021, 07:49:53 pm
Both countries have moved to contactless credit cards as a way of combating fraud and to provide simple audit trails. we paid contactless for 2 caipirinhas on the beach at a small beach. This was a small bar on wheels with a terminal connected to the man's phone and the 4G system.  The need for wireless connectivity of course meant that the 4G was ubiquitous even when travelling on small roads between towns.

A cashless society is a surveillance society...

J
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 19 August, 2021, 08:50:21 pm
I suspect that Brazil is big enough not to be a surveillance state. I also suspect at the involuntarily off grid level of live cash is still normal. Although even this may be changing. Micro finance in Africa is already mobile phone based.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: archy on 20 August, 2021, 09:39:59 am
A
Both countries have moved to contactless credit cards as a way of combating fraud and to provide simple audit trails. we paid contactless for 2 caipirinhas on the beach at a small beach. This was a small bar on wheels with a terminal connected to the man's phone and the 4G system.  The need for wireless connectivity of course meant that the 4G was ubiquitous even when travelling on small roads between towns.

A cashless society is a surveillance society...

J

The internet, satellites, radar, cameras.  Watched by them all. 
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Jaded on 20 August, 2021, 09:51:10 am
Cash is great for hiding transactions...
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 20 August, 2021, 10:22:07 am
Bitcoin

Either it won't be there or 90% of the world's computing resources and 99% of the power will be devoted to mining and ledger updates. The remaining 10% of the computing resources will be taken up with:
- News sources discussing changes in bitcoin value.
- Processing pictures of cats.
- Bitcoin-based porn.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: archy on 20 August, 2021, 11:19:34 am
Cash is great for hiding transactions...

Only if you can get hold of it.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 20 August, 2021, 12:41:24 pm
Cash, the folding type at least is a simple promissory note.  There have been times that I have seen power cuts, belligerent pos machines, rejected cards, no signal, no battery, etc. resulting in cash only transactions.  In a "cashless" society people will have to revert to no trade or good old pen and paper and IOU's, otherwise known as promissory notes.  Oh, we're back to cash ...

The thing with cash is that it doesn't need an expensive device, an external network, electrickery or even a simple card, it is the ultimate and the simplest way to pay.

I was at the railway station 90 minutes ago buying a ticket.  I prefer counter service if possible because I do find it difficult to read the screen on fast ticket machines.

Tickets ordered, present card to machine.  One green light ...
...
...
...
< waiting patiently >
...
...
...
< becoming mildly anxious >
...
...
...
< machine fails >

Options now?  Ah yes, cash. 

Sometimes technology isn't the answer.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 20 August, 2021, 12:45:51 pm
If the ticket machine behind the counter fails, you're not going to get a ticket either, cash or not. Or if the counter isn't open.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 20 August, 2021, 03:16:10 pm
If, if, if ...   there's always a worse case scenario.

The point is that the pos machine died but cash saved the day.

There are numerous ticketing options including them writing you out a ticket or even buying one on the train.  Today cash trumped convenience.

Neither the card, nor my liquidity are the problem either.  I have used it after the event without issue.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: rafletcher on 20 August, 2021, 04:30:20 pm
But the train conductor would take contactless anyway. Which prompted a thought, does Apple Pay (and the like) need a mobile signal to function (Googles: No, it doesn’t).
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 20 August, 2021, 04:45:39 pm
We don't have train conductors on our line (or whatever they call them) so you'll be sore out of luck paying on the train.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 August, 2021, 05:30:20 pm
The ticket machine might need a signal to contact the fares database. I know I've been unable to buy a ticket while in the Severn Tunnel.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: archy on 20 August, 2021, 06:33:40 pm
Rupert Murdoch. It may take a silver bullet and/or a stake.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 20 August, 2021, 07:06:22 pm
Rupert Murdoch. It may take a silver bullet and/or a stake.

Newspapers in general.  By which I mean the subscription service by which billionaires ensure they get the government they want, not the advertising-funded journalism product that they were 30+ years ago.  That's been gone for ages, and seems unlikely to return unless someone un-invents computers.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 20 August, 2021, 07:09:48 pm
I bloody hope you're right, Kim...
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Efrogwr on 20 August, 2021, 07:50:34 pm
Rupert Murdoch. It may take a silver bullet and/or a stake.


And burial at a crossroads.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 20 August, 2021, 07:59:53 pm
But the train conductor would take contactless anyway. Which prompted a thought, does Apple Pay (and the like) need a mobile signal to function (Googles: No, it doesn’t).

Many moons ago I joined a train at a point where I could not buy a ticket.  For reasons that I cannot recall the conductor was unable to sell me a ticket but he wrote me a slip and I was able to buy my ticket at my destination.  This was before the days of the interwebs, contactless payments, etc.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 20 August, 2021, 08:18:41 pm
There used to be little permit-to-travel machines that would give you a little chit in exchange for nominal coinage. They seem to have disappeared. If you can't get a ticket on our line, you just have to blag your way at the excess fare counter at London Bridge.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mllePB on 21 August, 2021, 01:08:30 pm
Time must be running out for junk food in vending machines.

When did you last see a cigarette vending machine?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: robgul on 21 August, 2021, 04:00:24 pm
Time must be running out for junk food in vending machines.

When did you last see a cigarette vending machine?

Ah - there are legal reasons for there being no cigarette machines - in the same way the cigarettes are not allowed to be on display in shops - so not relly fading away, rather being banned.  But then banning machines selling fizzy drinks would be no bad thing!
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Mr Larrington on 21 August, 2021, 06:11:33 pm
Time must be running out for junk food in vending machines.

When did you last see a cigarette vending machine?

They’re still A Thing in parts of Abroad, usually with some sort of built-in age verification gadgetry.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Auntie Helen on 21 August, 2021, 08:53:14 pm
Yes, we have them round here.

Plus cigarettes on display at the supermarket checkouts.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: slugbait on 23 August, 2021, 09:23:49 pm

Does that mean every sixth customer gets rejected?  Or do people do PIN transactions frequently enough to not normally encounter it? Or is it a misconfiguration by your bank?

I goto supermarket, buy weeks shopping, insert pin.

Buy a train ticket, contactless

Buy a mars bar, contactless

Buy a new drill at the hardware store, contactless

Buy a new inner tube at the bike shop, contactless

Buy some fries on the way home, contactless

Try to pee at a service station with no pin terminal, payment declined, enter pin...

J

This is not how it works. You need to enter your pin if the transaction is above 50 euros or you have made a 100 euros worth of purchases since you last entered the pin code. You are extremely unlucky if the 50 cents at the station loo makes you exceed the100 euros threshold. However, we can deduce from this that your average purchase is roughly 15 euros.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 August, 2021, 09:30:34 pm

This is not how it works. You need to enter your pin if the transaction is above 50 euros or you have made a 100 euros worth of purchases since you last entered the pin code. You are extremely unlucky if the 50 cents at the station loo makes you exceed the100 euros threshold. However, we can deduce from this that your average purchase is roughly 15 euros.

Ah, so that's what triggers it. And yes, my transactions are typically all about €15.

J
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: rogerzilla on 24 August, 2021, 06:55:35 am
Firearms, soldiers and military pilots. 

There will be armies of autonomous laser or flame-throwing robots to take territory instead, and drones for the air.  Not sure about warships; if they are still relevant, they probably need crew for damage control and makeshift repairs.

Firearms really are the film cameras of the killing industry.  Using a small deflagration to hurl a lump of metal at the enemy?  How 16th century.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: nicknack on 24 August, 2021, 08:19:12 am
Firearms, soldiers and military pilots. 

There will be armies of autonomous laser or flame-throwing robots to take territory instead, and drones for the air.  Not sure about warships; if they are still relevant, they probably need crew for damage control and makeshift repairs.

Firearms really are the film cameras of the killing industry.  Using a small deflagration to hurl a lump of metal at the enemy?  How 16th century.
But what will all those inadequate men pose with to make them look like big boys?

<<<<<saxophones?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Basil on 24 August, 2021, 08:27:36 am
Firearms, soldiers and military pilots. 

There will be armies of autonomous laser or flame-throwing robots to take territory instead, and drones for the air.  Not sure about warships; if they are still relevant, they probably need crew for damage control and makeshift repairs.

Firearms really are the film cameras of the killing industry.  Using a small deflagration to hurl a lump of metal at the enemy?  How 16th century.
But what will all those inadequate men pose with to make them look like big boys?

<<<<<saxophones?

Hunting rifles would survive (unfortunately).  There are people who think the best way to get back to nature is is killing it.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 24 August, 2021, 08:56:27 am
Firearms, soldiers and military pilots. 

There will be armies of autonomous laser or flame-throwing robots to take territory instead, and drones for the air.  Not sure about warships; if they are still relevant, they probably need crew for damage control and makeshift repairs.

Firearms really are the film cameras of the killing industry.  Using a small deflagration to hurl a lump of metal at the enemy?  How 16th century.
But what will all those inadequate men pose with to make them look like big boys?

<<<<<saxophones?

Hunting rifles would survive (unfortunately).  There are people who think the best way to get back to nature is is killing it.

Indeed.  Field "sporters' and merkins will probably ensure the longevity of such contraptions for many a century to come.   I can see militias, insurgents and terrorists moving with the times but not the gun fanatics and there are far too many of them.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 24 August, 2021, 09:00:54 am
Firearms, soldiers and military pilots. 

There will be armies of autonomous laser or flame-throwing robots to take territory instead, and drones for the air.  Not sure about warships; if they are still relevant, they probably need crew for damage control and makeshift repairs.

Firearms really are the film cameras of the killing industry.  Using a small deflagration to hurl a lump of metal at the enemy?  How 16th century.
But what will all those inadequate men pose with to make them look like big boys?

<<<<<saxophones?

Advances in batteries will make person-portable railguns practical.
There will be about a decade of whinging about how guns aren't the same without the big bang and a 'a real man smells of gunpowder'.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: JennyB on 24 August, 2021, 09:41:43 am

Advances in batteries will make person-portable railguns practical.
There will be about a decade of whinging about how guns aren't the same without the big bang and a 'a real man smells of gunpowder'.


There will still be gun hunters just as there are still bow hunters, At least for the ones who don't rely on it for a living. Sport, eh?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 September, 2021, 05:52:04 pm
The Graun has caught on to the death of the wallet, including the demise of the bank card, and its replacement by the phone. More accurately, they read it in the Wall St Journal. This surely means phones are now old hat.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/06/the-end-of-the-wallet-how-phones-replaced-cash-credit-cards-and-receipts
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: nuttycyclist on 06 September, 2021, 09:58:53 pm
and when the tech fails?

Mrs Nutty had a red face moment in the shop when her Garmin watch on which she replies so much suffered a flat battery at the checkout.  She had to come home to get her purse and go back.(she was reliant on the watch).

I was in a shop the other day and the POS terminal was down when I offered up my bank card, but didn't bother me as I carry emergency cash in my wallet.  I am also in the minority who sees no point in carrying a smartphone and don't own one.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 06 September, 2021, 10:04:52 pm
What happens when you forget your wallet?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: nuttycyclist on 06 September, 2021, 10:45:06 pm
I have the pocket slap down to a fine art whenever I leave the house.   "Keys, wallet, facemask", and that is repeated frequently whenever I am out so that should an item go missing I can retrace my steps to retrieve it.   On longer walks or rides the constant checks also include water-bottle, binoculars, whatever item has been brought.

After becoming a parent these checks also include whether the children are still in sight and have they lost the toys they brought out with them.

None of that relies on a smart device.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 07 September, 2021, 12:18:34 am
This is like the paper map vs GPS argument.  Which isn't really an argument, as they both do different - if overlapping - things, and have different failure modes that make them useful companions to each other.

Smart things, bank cards and cash can all be used to pay for things, unless you've left them at home, or the shop isn't able to deal with the one you want to use.  None are intrinsically better in that respect.  Phones can be located when you lose them, or bricked remotely when stolen, and do a zillion unrelated things.  Credit cards can open doors and make fraud Somebody Else's Problem.  Cash can provide anonymity, hide things from the taxman, work without electricity or boot a tyre.  All these things are useful.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 07 September, 2021, 08:00:42 am
I agree with Kim's statement about paper map vs GPS.

It won't be long before payment is taken by biometric scan, rather than relying on a device.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Tim Hall on 07 September, 2021, 08:43:27 am
"Could you lend me a (biometric) fiver?"
I think Shakespeare has explored that theory already.

Merchant of Venice, Act 4, Scene 1.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 September, 2021, 09:18:50 am
The Shakespearean mind is not constrained by the technology of the day!
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 07 September, 2021, 09:25:57 am
I agree with Kim's statement about paper map vs GPS.

It won't be long before payment is taken by biometric scan, rather than relying on a device.

Indeed, in many ways the smart device is on its own way to being redundant.

I'm stocked up with emergency cash at home, admittedly much of it might be in Ghanaian cedi. I have stopped carrying a wallet, I'm not a pockets kind of person, any unsightly bulge in my trousers is unlikely to be a wallet.

Many years ago, the local gas station wouldn't sell me a quart of milk for actual cash during a power outage, since they couldn't process the transaction through the till and seemingly didn't have the authority to process the transaction any other way.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 September, 2021, 09:28:10 am
I'm stocking up on glass beads just in case.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: The French Tandem on 07 September, 2021, 09:33:37 am
and when the tech fails?

Mrs Nutty had a red face moment in the shop when her Garmin watch on which she replies so much suffered a flat battery at the checkout.  She had to come home to get her purse and go back.(she was reliant on the watch).

I'm surprised that there is not a kind of "safe mode" or "recovery mode" for when the battery is dead.

I'm not a specialist of these things, but I have a "keyless" car, which means you can get in the car and start the engine while the"key" remains in your pocket. When the battery in the"key" is dead, you can still run the car using a slightly more complex but workable procedure. I was assuming it was similar for smart watches
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 07 September, 2021, 09:49:28 am
There's a low power thing on an Apple Watch that shuts down everything but vital functions. No idea if it can do Apple Pay in this state, even though the watch is about three years old, it's yet to run out of battery in daily use.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: grams on 07 September, 2021, 11:21:33 am
iPhones can do transit (i.e Oyster) swipes in and out with a dead battery but I don’t think they can authorise other payments.

I keep an emergency picture of the queen in the back of my phone case for this purpose.

ETA: It’s main use is for retailers with funny cash only / card minimums rather than dead batteries, since not letting your phone battery die is a basic personal skill in the modern world.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 September, 2021, 11:23:25 am
Making all your payments, mapping, unlocking your front door and starting your car, and other stuff by phone means only one thing to forget.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 07 September, 2021, 12:25:05 pm
Once it is biometric, you'll have trouble leaving the house without your face.

Of course, we've all seen Face/Off.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 07 September, 2021, 12:29:49 pm
It’s main use is for retailers with funny cash only / card minimums rather than dead batteries, since not letting your phone battery die is a basic personal skill in the modern world.

I'd agree with this, too.  But I suspect there are personality types involved, with some people rarely allowing their battery to drop below about 70%, and others perpetually on the brink of power saving mode.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 07 September, 2021, 12:30:27 pm
Of course, we've all seen Face/Off.

Only the first half.  It was boring and I fell asleep.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 07 September, 2021, 01:13:39 pm
We have literally just purchased a paper map in the last hour.   It seems to be working very well without a battery and bright light is not affecting our ability to see the detail.  And the screen is massive ...   
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: FifeingEejit on 07 September, 2021, 01:18:00 pm


I think the big payment providers (Visa, Mastercard, Amex) also have numbered days.

At this stage it seems unlikely, between the first 2 they hold the patents and other gubbings for the EMV* system,its even got their names in it (Eurocard, Mastercard, visa)


* aka chip and pin, but has included contactless from the early days.



Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: FifeingEejit on 07 September, 2021, 01:21:08 pm
A contactless card is in effect a card shaped dongle when it comes to payment.
Though don't phones etc bypass the card limit and the algorithm that forces you to enter your pin ever n transactions?
They create a virtual card, if you look at the receipt after paying by bonk you'll see a final set of digits that differ from your card, there's a whole whack of stuff involved that makes them considered more secure than bonking by card, but ive not worked on it since the early days of sticking an rfid chip in a Nokia changeable cover and rfid in phones was only just appearing on the horizon.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 07 September, 2021, 02:49:43 pm
I think the big payment providers (Visa, Mastercard, Amex) also have numbered days.

At this stage it seems unlikely, between the first 2 they hold the patents and other gubbings for the EMV* system,its even got their names in it (Eurocard, Mastercard, visa)

* aka chip and pin, but has included contactless from the early days.


As I understand it, both Apple and Google circumvent EMV and in effect make it obsolete. The US never really adopted chip and pin anyway. Apple and Google effectively do away with the cards, creating one-time secure tokens for each transaction (which is very secure, there's no card to clone), there's no real need for the card or processors, since they can mediate directly with clearing to settle the transaction.

Increasingly, online retailers are offering Apple or Android Pay options, plus Amazon are muscling in with their own payment solution.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 07 September, 2021, 02:51:46 pm
I think the big payment providers (Visa, Mastercard, Amex) also have numbered days.

At this stage it seems unlikely, between the first 2 they hold the patents and other gubbings for the EMV* system,its even got their names in it (Eurocard, Mastercard, visa)

* aka chip and pin, but has included contactless from the early days.


As I understand it, both Apple and Google circumvent EMV and in effect make it obsolete. The US never really adopted chip and pin anyway. Apple and Google effectively do away with the cards, creating one-time secure tokens for each transaction (which is very secure, there's no card to clone), there's no real need for the card or processors, since they can mediate directly with clearing to settle the transaction.

Increasingly, online retailers are offering Apple or Android Pay options, plus Amazon are muscling in with their own payment solution.
Who runs the clearing?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 07 September, 2021, 04:48:49 pm
At present the processor, but there's no reason it can't pass through an automated clearinghouse (as many electronic transactions already do), cutting the card processor out of the loop is desirable as they levy transaction and interchange fees for their networks and services. It won't happen overnight, we all have wallets full of Mastercards and Visa, plus those social deviants with Amex and Diners etc. but you have to figure the end game for Google, Apple and co is to own the payment space and both facilitate purchases and claim those interchange fees for themselves.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: FifeingEejit on 07 September, 2021, 05:24:00 pm
That would need the banks to play ball, both mastercard and visa used to be owned by the banks but looks like that's no longer the case.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 September, 2021, 12:40:06 pm
Card minimums are an odd thing. Totally understandable from the retailer's pov. But as more and more people don't carry cash (or card) they're going to have an influence on our shopping habits. Maybe people will become more and more inclined to just suck it up, as indeed they might postage, or maybe more and more bundling of purchases – but difficult cos card minimums only really hit when all you wanted was (tempting fate) a pint of milk – or maybe in the long run the retailers will have to suck it up.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 12 September, 2021, 07:16:47 pm
I've just encountered my first 'card minimum spend' in a long time. I was in Barton-on-Humber (please don't ask why) and Mrs M spotted a sweet shop where she assumed I could buy her some sherbet lemons.
The assistant emptied the jar and it came to about £3 - I proffered my phone, to be told it was a £5 minimum. So I waved the cobwebs out of my wallet.
Seems fair, but it's increasingly uncommon.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 September, 2021, 09:07:43 pm
£5 is high. Last one I encountered, a couple of weeks ago, was £3. It's almost always in little shops where you might go in to just buy a couple of sherbet lemons (I wanted to buy a lighter, camping stove for the lighting of, which cost 60p – I couldn't find anything else I wanted to buy, so borked out a fiver).
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 12 September, 2021, 10:44:48 pm
Our local shop is !2 which allows me to buy the paper. I will often just walk out unless I am desperate.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: rafletcher on 13 September, 2021, 08:31:09 am
I've not encountered any minimum payments around here for a long time (even the farm shop has dropped it £5 minimum) - but then the only thing I've bought that was <£3 is eggs from one of our neighbours, and for that we use cash. I guess prices have just compensated.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 13 September, 2021, 09:06:37 am
Smaller businesses, especially those which have many low value sales are hit hard by transaction fees.  The choices are to raise prices or set a transaction minimum.  Seems extremely reasonable to me.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 13 September, 2021, 09:29:43 am
The fees have dropped a lot, the little PoS terminals you can buy and connect to your phone are usually competitively priced. It's rare to see a transaction limit in my experience, I spent 60p on card in a corner shop yesterday. Cash itself has its own costs.

That said, the greasy spoon I went to on Saturday is still defiantly cash only (though they trusted us enough to let us eat the food and give them the money later).
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 13 September, 2021, 09:32:17 am
The fees may have dropped a lot but they are still fees.  If you are conducting hundreds of small transactions in a day even a small fee adds up. 
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 13 September, 2021, 09:36:14 am
Indeed, but there are costs for doing everything. Going to the bank and dropping off cash isn't free either.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 September, 2021, 09:53:19 am
The terminals might be cheap, but it's the banks levying the fees. Like PB says, it's the small shops which probably have many low-value sales that levy them. And I don't suppose the banks levy the same fees for everyone.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: grams on 13 September, 2021, 10:00:16 am
I instinctively avoid small shops because of the unknowability of their card situation from outside, which is a bit shit.

Going to the bank and dropping off cash isn't free either.

If you're running a small business on tiny margins, any labour you can do yourself rather than paying someone else is profit.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 13 September, 2021, 10:03:04 am
MrsC has set up a SumUp account and purchased a terminal.

Seems to work in a very similar way to Paypal. Fees for seller are on moving the money out of the SumUp account.

I presume SumUp are leveraging the large collective amounts of cash for trading and investments.


I'm wrong. They charge the seller a fixed percentage on transaction (1.69%).

Low enough that it doesn't really bite.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 13 September, 2021, 10:05:19 am
The PoS my wife's orchestra uses has a flat 1.75% transaction fee (I think there's an additional 10p flat fee for credit cards).

Anyway, it's not an argument about cash versus card, there are always costs for running a business – from cashing up and taking cash to the bank (indeed, if you're a small shop, there's always risk in having cash on the premises), stocking the shelves, throwing out the rubbish, etc. etc. In my experience, they mostly seem to be absorbing the charges.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 13 September, 2021, 11:23:02 am
Indeed, but there are costs for doing everything. Going to the bank and dropping off cash isn't free either.

Quite so but it's predictable and your own time.   Also, the smaller you are as a business the higher your fees will be.  The normal rules of supply and demand operate even in the finance sector.  And, merchants have to pay monthly for the epos kit too which is yet another expense.  It all adds up.

Cash is not dead yet in spite of the attempts of the £££banks£££ and $big$cos to gan ever more control over your spending and your data.  And given how this corrupt government is about to trash GDPR and de-protect personal data, I'll keep the cash handy thanks.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Woofage on 13 September, 2021, 11:48:50 am
Card minimums are an odd thing. Totally understandable from the retailer's pov. But as more and more people don't carry cash (or card) they're going to have an influence on our shopping habits. Maybe people will become more and more inclined to just suck it up, as indeed they might postage, or maybe more and more bundling of purchases – but difficult cos card minimums only really hit when all you wanted was (tempting fate) a pint of milk – or maybe in the long run the retailers will have to suck it up.

I think we'll see them go as they're a hangover from now obsolete charging schemes. Until recently*, DC transactions were charged as a fee and CCs a %. It's all % now (actually a bit lower for DC) so no actual need for a minimum spend.

* a handful of years, can't remember how many.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 13 September, 2021, 12:42:36 pm
Credit card still has a fixed 10p fee (+1.75%) on the system I'm familiar with, there's no fixed fee for debit cards. That's, of course, for a small entity, if you're a bigger merchant, those terms may be different. I've not read the T&Cs.

But anyway, in my experience, the majority of small shops now take cards and for any amount.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 September, 2021, 12:53:08 pm
Wasn't the law changed a couple of years ago to allow for differential charging debit v credit card? And presumably cash too. But I've never actually come across this in use.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: rafletcher on 13 September, 2021, 01:11:19 pm
Indeed, but there are costs for doing everything. Going to the bank and dropping off cash isn't free either.

Quite so but it's predictable and your own time.   Also, the smaller you are as a business the higher your fees will be.  The normal rules of supply and demand operate even in the finance sector.  And, merchants have to pay monthly for the epos kit too which is yet another expense.  It all adds up.

Cash is not dead yet in spite of the attempts of the £££banks£££ and $big$cos to gan ever more control over your spending and your data.  And given how this corrupt government is about to trash GDPR and de-protect personal data, I'll keep the cash handy thanks.

That's more about you than the system though. Our local card and geegaw shop has actively discouraged cash since the start of lockdown, much preferring contactless.  The only cash only business I can think of is the sandwich  delivery to work - but thats because it's a pre-order and each individual has to cough up the correct fee for the admin to pay to the van when it arrives. And in their shop, you can pay contactless.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 15 September, 2021, 02:40:22 pm
Penny coins being produced again and contactless limit to rise to £100.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58560185
It strikes me that "hoarded at home" in the case of pennies means "can't be arsed to put them in my pocket".
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 15 September, 2021, 07:52:12 pm
It strikes me that "hoarded at home" in the case of pennies means "can't be arsed to put them in my pocket".

Someone who shall remain nameless, but we'll refer to by the official honorific Fuckwit Wanker Pillock Twat, was in the habit of *binning* small change.  I mean, sure, there's always going to be some attrition as they get eaten by furniture or lost in the crevices of the car or swallowed by insufficiently well-briefed christmas pudding eaters or whatever, but shirley normal people just chuck them in a jar and fail to get round to doing anything with it.

I used to do special milk runs to the self-humiliation checkout at the local mini-Sainsbury's, which would accept heaps of mixed change, but that stopped at around the same time as I last went anywhere that might involve using cash.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 15 September, 2021, 08:18:31 pm
1980s pop star Captain Sensible mentioned doing in an interview as evidence of how much richer he was going solo than singing with the Damned. I'm sure lots of far less rich people have been doing the same for a long time. There's very rarely a shortage of Fuckwit Wanker Pillock Twats.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Mr Larrington on 15 September, 2021, 08:38:16 pm
I remember PJ O'Rourke writing of a pre-Unification trip to the other side of Checkpoint Charlie, when it was obligatory to change a certain quantity of perfectly good Deutschmarks into their well-nigh worthless but politically sound DDR equivalent.  And no, you weren’t allowed to take your Ostmarks away in case you planned to come back.  Unable to spend it, and despite the great pain suffered by any Republican doing something similar, he ended up throwing the East German currency in a bin.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Jaded on 15 September, 2021, 08:42:21 pm
Indeed, but there are costs for doing everything. Going to the bank and dropping off cash isn't free either.

Quite so but it's predictable and your own time.   Also, the smaller you are as a business the higher your fees will be.  The normal rules of supply and demand operate even in the finance sector.  And, merchants have to pay monthly for the epos kit too which is yet another expense.  It all adds up.

Cash is not dead yet in spite of the attempts of the £££banks£££ and $big$cos to gan ever more control over your spending and your data.  And given how this corrupt government is about to trash GDPR and de-protect personal data, I'll keep the cash handy thanks.

Only in your own time if you are able to visit a bank during opening hours.

Banks have closed.

Here, in a three town triangle, two towns had one branch and 1 town had four. Naturally now two towns have no branches and 1 town still has four. A little bit of consideration forth market (and the realisation that it is possible to have 'centres' of the operation that are not profitable, whilst still being profitable overall could have meant 2 towns with one branch each and one with two.

10,000 more people would still have access to a bank. (Not 'access' which means a 15-20 minute drive, a parking fee, and a 15-20 minute driver back)
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 15 September, 2021, 08:53:14 pm
I always put all the change (below an actual pound coin) in the charity box (I've never been convinced the contents of these boxes go to charity, but hey, it's the thought that counts). They'll be suffering now I've gone cashless.

I also dump left-over currency in those envelopes the airlines give you, though once I got home and worked out the exchange rate and realized I'd given them £73.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 15 September, 2021, 08:57:24 pm
I remember PJ O'Rourke writing of a pre-Unification trip to the other side of Checkpoint Charlie, when it was obligatory to change a certain quantity of perfectly good Deutschmarks into their well-nigh worthless but politically sound DDR equivalent.  And no, you weren’t allowed to take your Ostmarks away in case you planned to come back.  Unable to spend it, and despite the great pain suffered by any Republican doing something similar, he ended up throwing the East German currency in a bin.
There was a similar rule in the Soviet Union. However, there's always a semi-official blind eye. So in Leningrad airport, in the departure lounge after passport control etc, there was a bar. Well what else would there be in a Russian airport? This bar only took rubles.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Polar Bear on 15 September, 2021, 09:06:58 pm
Indeed, but there are costs for doing everything. Going to the bank and dropping off cash isn't free either.

Quite so but it's predictable and your own time.   Also, the smaller you are as a business the higher your fees will be.  The normal rules of supply and demand operate even in the finance sector.  And, merchants have to pay monthly for the epos kit too which is yet another expense.  It all adds up.

Cash is not dead yet in spite of the attempts of the £££banks£££ and $big$cos to gan ever more control over your spending and your data.  And given how this corrupt government is about to trash GDPR and de-protect personal data, I'll keep the cash handy thanks.

Only in your own time if you are able to visit a bank during opening hours.

Banks have closed.

Here, in a three town triangle, two towns had one branch and 1 town had four. Naturally now two towns have no branches and 1 town still has four. A little bit of consideration forth market (and the realisation that it is possible to have 'centres' of the operation that are not profitable, whilst still being profitable overall could have meant 2 towns with one branch each and one with two.

10,000 more people would still have access to a bank. (Not 'access' which means a 15-20 minute drive, a parking fee, and a 15-20 minute driver back)

Banking hours have always been restrictive anyway but I agree that they have got worse (I.e. been reduced) since covid.  And branch closures are a symptom of the drive to push people contactless.   It is estimated that between 1.3 and 2.4 million adults in the UK do not have a bank account primarily because they are not eligible and for some, never have been.   For these people cash is the only possible solution.  Now, I accept that they are a minority but they still need to buy food etc.  It will not come as a shock to learn that many of these are also homeless.

As a so-called civilised society we should never exclude the disadvantaged.   
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: offcumden on 15 September, 2021, 09:28:15 pm
Once shops/cafes started to open up after the first lockdown I used to carry cash and a debit card, but soon realised that I could relieve the burden on my pockets by just using ApplePay on my phone. I do enjoy the simplicity. Worked well until recently when one of my regular cycling cafes had a power cut - fortunately after I'd had my tea and toast, but before I could pay. I went back a week later, by which time power had been restored, and I settled my debt.

And, more recently, at a newsagent I picked up a copy of the "i" and was told that there was a minimum card payment of £1. Easily settled by the newsagent, who charged my card/phone the £1, and gave me 35p in cash.

Mention above of pocket-slapping reminded me of the old story of the gentleman in the three-piece suit, with cash and half-hunter in his weskit pockets, who would always cross himself before setting out from home. Not, as some may have thought, as a religious ritual, but to verify that all essentials were present and correct - saying to himself as he did so, "Spectacles, testicles, wallet, watch".
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Moleman76 on 15 September, 2021, 11:03:07 pm
I always put all the change (below an actual pound coin) in the charity box (I've never been convinced the contents of these boxes go to charity, but hey, it's the thought that counts). They'll be suffering now I've gone cashless.

Over here at the upper left corner of the map of USAnia, many grocers (from healthy-food small cooperatives to acre-plus sized corporate outlets) have a round-up for charity possibility when using charge cards.  It's rather painless and they tend to rotate charity recipients from week to week; animal shelters, food banks, transitional housing, etc.  "Your total is $23.64, would you like to round up to $24 for ... ?" is usually answered yes.

Apparently there are phone apps that will keep track over a month, and then you can direct the extra to the charity of your choice.  I suspect that these "free" services are paid for by those seeking information on spending habits.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: FifeingEejit on 15 September, 2021, 11:43:19 pm
Indeed, but there are costs for doing everything. Going to the bank and dropping off cash isn't free either.
As I remember it, it was 50p per note.
I was sent out to buy change once, I was sent out with more thns normal on the basis that I wouldn't be recognized by those likely to want to jump me for the money and that at my height and weight most such gadgies would be out off anyway.

The amount I returned with in coins was noticably lower than what I handed over in notes.

One of the early aims of contactlens was to get fees close to, or lower than cash.

Card minimums or no card suggest any combination of:
1) still being in a crap agreement with bank
2) a safe full of notes and coins
3) creative book keeping.
The further from discivilization you are the more likely 2 becomes due to lack of bank and time required to travel to discivilizarion to find one.
Oh 1 in civilization also suggests any banking that is done is with the RBS since they still have mobile branches but otherwise shite.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Jaded on 15 September, 2021, 11:56:01 pm
Indeed, but there are costs for doing everything. Going to the bank and dropping off cash isn't free either.

Quite so but it's predictable and your own time.   Also, the smaller you are as a business the higher your fees will be.  The normal rules of supply and demand operate even in the finance sector.  And, merchants have to pay monthly for the epos kit too which is yet another expense.  It all adds up.

Cash is not dead yet in spite of the attempts of the £££banks£££ and $big$cos to gan ever more control over your spending and your data.  And given how this corrupt government is about to trash GDPR and de-protect personal data, I'll keep the cash handy thanks.

Only in your own time if you are able to visit a bank during opening hours.

Banks have closed.

Here, in a three town triangle, two towns had one branch and 1 town had four. Naturally now two towns have no branches and 1 town still has four. A little bit of consideration forth market (and the realisation that it is possible to have 'centres' of the operation that are not profitable, whilst still being profitable overall could have meant 2 towns with one branch each and one with two.

10,000 more people would still have access to a bank. (Not 'access' which means a 15-20 minute drive, a parking fee, and a 15-20 minute driver back)

Banking hours have always been restrictive anyway but I agree that they have got worse (I.e. been reduced) since covid.  And branch closures are a symptom of the drive to push people contactless.  It is estimated that between 1.3 and 2.4 million adults in the UK do not have a bank account primarily because they are not eligible and for some, never have been.   For these people cash is the only possible solution.  Now, I accept that they are a minority but they still need to buy food etc.  I will not come as a shock to learn that many of these are also homeless.

As a so-called civilised society we should never exclude the disadvantaged.

Absolutely agree.

Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ian on 16 September, 2021, 08:51:58 am
I always put all the change (below an actual pound coin) in the charity box (I've never been convinced the contents of these boxes go to charity, but hey, it's the thought that counts). They'll be suffering now I've gone cashless.

Over here at the upper left corner of the map of USAnia, many grocers (from healthy-food small cooperatives to acre-plus sized corporate outlets) have a round-up for charity possibility when using charge cards.  It's rather painless and they tend to rotate charity recipients from week to week; animal shelters, food banks, transitional housing, etc.  "Your total is $23.64, would you like to round up to $24 for ... ?" is usually answered yes.

Apparently there are phone apps that will keep track over a month, and then you can direct the extra to the charity of your choice.  I suspect that these "free" services are paid for by those seeking information on spending habits.

I like this idea, but I've not really seen it often on this side of the pond, though charity and volunteering is more a fundamental part of the American mindset, Brits will sit around and moan the council hasn't done it.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 16 September, 2021, 09:42:23 am
I remember several years ago when the HSBC on the high st here closed down, the surviving NatWest was deluged with local shopkeepers wanting change. All met with "Do you have an account here?" "No." And refusal. I guess they've now either switched accounts or found some other way. Similarly, when I was doing a volly shift in a chazzer, every morning began with sending someone to the bank with yesterday's takings and instructions to pick up x y z coins. Notes not usually a problem. Took about half an hour. Logically, the further from a surviving branch you are, the more likely it should be that shops prefer cards over cash. But is that actually the case?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Tim Hall on 16 September, 2021, 11:01:55 am
... volly ... chazzer ...

Are these Bristolian words? I haven't come across them before.
Sir! Sir! I know. Chazzer = charity shop.  From that I'd assume volly is volunteer.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 16 September, 2021, 11:20:56 am
Yes. As in "Let's go for a pint at the Volly Arms." I'm not aware of a pub called the Charity Arms but I'm sure there's one somewhere!
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 16 September, 2021, 01:34:08 pm
Indeed, but there are costs for doing everything. Going to the bank and dropping off cash isn't free either.

Quite so but it's predictable and your own time.   Also, the smaller you are as a business the higher your fees will be.  The normal rules of supply and demand operate even in the finance sector.  And, merchants have to pay monthly for the epos kit too which is yet another expense.  It all adds up.

Cash is not dead yet in spite of the attempts of the £££banks£££ and $big$cos to gan ever more control over your spending and your data.  And given how this corrupt government is about to trash GDPR and de-protect personal data, I'll keep the cash handy thanks.

Only in your own time if you are able to visit a bank during opening hours.

Banks have closed.

Here, in a three town triangle, two towns had one branch and 1 town had four. Naturally now two towns have no branches and 1 town still has four. A little bit of consideration forth market (and the realisation that it is possible to have 'centres' of the operation that are not profitable, whilst still being profitable overall could have meant 2 towns with one branch each and one with two.

10,000 more people would still have access to a bank. (Not 'access' which means a 15-20 minute drive, a parking fee, and a 15-20 minute driver back)

Banking hours have always been restrictive anyway but I agree that they have got worse (I.e. been reduced) since covid.  And branch closures are a symptom of the drive to push people contactless.  It is estimated that between 1.3 and 2.4 million adults in the UK do not have a bank account primarily because they are not eligible and for some, never have been.   For these people cash is the only possible solution.  Now, I accept that they are a minority but they still need to buy food etc.  I will not come as a shock to learn that many of these are also homeless.

As a so-called civilised society we should never exclude the disadvantaged.

Absolutely agree.
This would be an advantage of mPesa type systems. It's easier and cheaper to get a basic phone and number than a bank account. It doesn't need to be a smartphone, just one that will make and accept text messages. Several years ago the Indian government had a scheme to make social security payments by phone numbers. I don't know whether they implemented it. It would avoid the need for bank accounts, enabling more recipients especially in rural areas, and at the same time cash. Effectively it's creating a basic bank account tied to your phone. But a stumbling block in the Indian context would be the need for basic literacy and numeracy.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 16 September, 2021, 02:23:11 pm
I always put all the change (below an actual pound coin) in the charity box (I've never been convinced the contents of these boxes go to charity, but hey, it's the thought that counts). They'll be suffering now I've gone cashless.

Over here at the upper left corner of the map of USAnia, many grocers (from healthy-food small cooperatives to acre-plus sized corporate outlets) have a round-up for charity possibility when using charge cards.  It's rather painless and they tend to rotate charity recipients from week to week; animal shelters, food banks, transitional housing, etc.  "Your total is $23.64, would you like to round up to $24 for ... ?" is usually answered yes.

Apparently there are phone apps that will keep track over a month, and then you can direct the extra to the charity of your choice.  I suspect that these "free" services are paid for by those seeking information on spending habits.

I like this idea, but I've not really seen it often on this side of the pond, though charity and volunteering is more a fundamental part of the American mindset, Brits will sit around and moan the council hasn't done it.
Charity aside, tax deductions are alive and well on both sides of the pond, and I attribute this to the rise of "Tick this box to donate £1 to $worthy_cause" on the checkout of online purchases.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 September, 2021, 03:24:56 pm
Six years after the end of the paper counterpart to your driving licence, rumours are the plastic card could go too.
Quote
The DVLA has announced a trial that could see plastic driving licences phased out over the next few years in favour of a new digital system.

The first phase of the plans will see the launch of new mobile provisional licences for learner drivers, which will be accessible via a smartphone app.

It is understood that the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) could then look to expand the technology to cover full licences too.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Mr Larrington on 17 September, 2021, 05:20:32 pm
That’ll go down well with car hire companies in FOREIGN parts, such as Abroad.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: rafletcher on 17 September, 2021, 07:12:14 pm
The mid-morning crackle of tabloid paper from the stalls in the works toilet.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Kim on 17 September, 2021, 07:45:06 pm
Anything printed on Niceday paper.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 September, 2021, 08:10:49 pm
That’ll go down well with car hire companies in FOREIGN parts, such as Abroad.
That's okay because:
Quote
The Department for Transport (DfT) said that the government was prevented from developing digital licences before Brexit because of European Union law, which stipulated the need for a physical version.

Grant Shapps, the transport secretary, said that Britain's transport system would be "fairer, greener and more efficient thanks to our exciting new post-EU freedom".

He said that digital driving licences and MoTs would move the system "into the modern age".
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: grams on 18 September, 2021, 12:25:44 pm
Isn’t there another government department making it impossible to vote without photo ID?

Although Tory voters older people will be ok as apparently bus passes will be accepted.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: TheLurker on 18 September, 2021, 02:38:17 pm
Kg & g it would seem.  Now, I'm old enough that lb & oz are weights I have an intuitive (OK, learnt) feel for and I have to *think* about grammes etc in everyday contexts, but really! What a bloody silly idea.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: quixoticgeek on 18 September, 2021, 03:37:51 pm
Six years after the end of the paper counterpart to your driving licence, rumours are the plastic card could go too.
Quote
The DVLA has announced a trial that could see plastic driving licences phased out over the next few years in favour of a new digital system.

The first phase of the plans will see the launch of new mobile provisional licences for learner drivers, which will be accessible via a smartphone app.

It is understood that the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) could then look to expand the technology to cover full licences too.

What a fucking stupid idea. The number of failure modes of this is just mind boggling. The reliance on a smart phone app for many things is getting ridiculous.

Am glad I have a Dutch license.

J
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ppg on 18 September, 2021, 03:56:17 pm
Assuming it's 'as well as' plastic as opposed to 'instead of' then I'm all in favour.

I rarely carry my wallet these cashless days, credit cards sit on the phone and watch, so the option to leave another card at home get my vote.
We have even managed to get the NT 'volly' to accept images of our membership cards, having stupidly left them at home.

I assume any plod wanting to see the license will have access to the digital database anyway?
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: quixoticgeek on 18 September, 2021, 04:07:30 pm
Assuming it's 'as well as' plastic as opposed to 'instead of' then I'm all in favour.

I rarely carry my wallet these cashless days, credit cards sit on the phone and watch, so the option to leave another card at home get my vote.
We have even managed to get the NT 'volly' to accept images of our membership cards, having stupidly left them at home.

I assume any plod wanting to see the license will have access to the digital database anyway?

Unless that police officer is German. And has just pulled you over at the side of the Autobahn...

J
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 September, 2021, 04:24:04 pm
In the international situation, thanks to our recent joining of the Vienna Convention, you'll have an international driving permit. Another Brexit bonus!

Domestically, the entirely unpredictable and completely unforeseeable likelihood is that they'll have a trial, which will uncover various serious flaws. A few adjustments will be made and a contract will then be signed to roll it out nationally with a company having nine shillings capital, zero employees, based at a PO Box in Jersey and set up two weeks previously by Chris Grayling's sister's best friend. This will deliver something totally unworkable, four years late and several tens of millions over budget, which will then necessitate a return to plastic cards. In the meantime, it will have been impossible to present a driving licence for several years, meaning all driving offences are essentially untraceable.

Meanwhile, in the rest of the world, Google will have launched its reliable, cheap, Licence app, built into all new Android phones, while Apple has come up with (obviously) iDrive. But neither of these will be acceptable in UK.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Pickled Onion on 18 September, 2021, 04:47:06 pm
Six years after the end of the paper counterpart to your driving licence, rumours are the plastic card could go too.
Quote
The DVLA has announced a trial that could see plastic driving licences phased out over the next few years in favour of a new digital system.

The first phase of the plans will see the launch of new mobile provisional licences for learner drivers, which will be accessible via a smartphone app.

It is understood that the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) could then look to expand the technology to cover full licences too.

What a fucking stupid idea. The number of failure modes of this is just mind boggling. The reliance on a smart phone app for many things is getting ridiculous.

Am glad I have a Dutch license.

J

Unlike what we see in films set in the USA, there’s no requirement in the UK to carry a licence while driving or show it to a police officer who stops you.

Governments of both colours have long wanted to have ways of tracking people with ID cards and the like. The increasing normalisation of various smartphone apps and flashing of qr codes brings this to reality.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: quixoticgeek on 18 September, 2021, 04:53:38 pm


Unlike what we see in films set in the USA, there’s no requirement in the UK to carry a licence while driving or show it to a police officer who stops you.

Governments of both colours have long wanted to have ways of tracking people with ID cards and the like. The increasing normalisation of various smartphone apps and flashing of qr codes brings this to reality.

Lucky non of you ever plan on driving outside of the UK then...

Or opening a bank account...

J
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: ppg on 18 September, 2021, 05:13:39 pm


Unlike what we see in films set in the USA, there’s no requirement in the UK to carry a licence while driving or show it to a police officer who stops you.

Governments of both colours have long wanted to have ways of tracking people with ID cards and the like. The increasing normalisation of various smartphone apps and flashing of qr codes brings this to reality.

Lucky non of you ever plan on driving outside of the UK then...

Or opening a bank account...

J

I assumed we need an IDP now anyway (£5.50 from PO) and you need a passport to travel abroad!

Have opened many bank accounts, never used or needed a driving license
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 18 September, 2021, 07:47:38 pm
As we plan to go to Tenerife in October I thought I should check.  We do not need an IDP in the EU it appears for periods of upto 6 months.  After that you need to check whcich IDP you need
Quote
Check which IDP you need
Check the table to find out if you need an IDP. There are 3 types of IDP:

1926
1949
1968
The IDP you need depends on what country you’re visiting.

If you’re travelling through more than one country, you might need more than one type of IDP.

If the country you’re visiting is not included in the table, check with the embassy of the country you’re travelling to.

If you’re hiring a car, check with your car hire company.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Mr Larrington on 19 September, 2021, 12:05:26 am
Back in Olden Times USAnians were oft-times suspicious of old-skool UK paper licences lacking a photo.  Dog knows what they’ll do if you wave a phone at them.  Shoot you, I expect.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 September, 2021, 01:50:45 pm
I still have my Cook Islands driving licence. Valid nowhere else on earth and has to be renewed annually. Mine expired in 1997 but it makes a good photo ID. Or maybe just a souvenir.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 September, 2021, 01:52:01 pm


Unlike what we see in films set in the USA, there’s no requirement in the UK to carry a licence while driving or show it to a police officer who stops you.

Governments of both colours have long wanted to have ways of tracking people with ID cards and the like. The increasing normalisation of various smartphone apps and flashing of qr codes brings this to reality.

Lucky non of you ever plan on driving outside of the UK then...

Or opening a bank account...

J

I assumed we need an IDP now anyway (£5.50 from PO) and you need a passport to travel abroad!

Have opened many bank accounts, never used or needed a driving license
IDP of course has another meaning which may be equally applicable.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: mark on 20 September, 2021, 03:47:56 am
Six years after the end of the paper counterpart to your driving licence, rumours are the plastic card could go too.
Quote
The DVLA has announced a trial that could see plastic driving licences phased out over the next few years in favour of a new digital system.

The first phase of the plans will see the launch of new mobile provisional licences for learner drivers, which will be accessible via a smartphone app.

It is understood that the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) could then look to expand the technology to cover full licences too.

I recently put an app on my phone that stores my Colorado driver's license, vehicle registrations and proof of insurance. There's a message in the app warning me that I should still carry physical copies of said documents outside of Colorado.
Title: Re: Items here now won't be there then
Post by: T42 on 20 September, 2021, 09:58:10 am
Back in Olden Times USAnians were oft-times suspicious of old-skool UK paper licences lacking a photo.  Dog knows what they’ll do if you wave a phone at them.  Shoot you, I expect.

Wouldn't surprise me:

https://youtu.be/XeG6jca8rrg