Items here now won't be there then

[Cudzoziemiec]

The Graun has caught on to the death of the wallet, including the demise of the bank card, and its replacement by the phone. More accurately, they read it in the Wall St Journal. This surely means phones are now old hat.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/06/the-end-of-the-wallet-how-phones-replaced-cash-credit-cards-and-receipts

[nuttycyclist]

and when the tech fails?

Mrs Nutty had a red face moment in the shop when her Garmin watch on which she replies so much suffered a flat battery at the checkout.  She had to come home to get her purse and go back.(she was reliant on the watch).

I was in a shop the other day and the POS terminal was down when I offered up my bank card, but didn't bother me as I carry emergency cash in my wallet.  I am also in the minority who sees no point in carrying a smartphone and don't own one.

[ian]

What happens when you forget your wallet?

[nuttycyclist]

I have the pocket slap down to a fine art whenever I leave the house.   "Keys, wallet, facemask", and that is repeated frequently whenever I am out so that should an item go missing I can retrace my steps to retrieve it.   On longer walks or rides the constant checks also include water-bottle, binoculars, whatever item has been brought.

After becoming a parent these checks also include whether the children are still in sight and have they lost the toys they brought out with them.

None of that relies on a smart device.

[Kim]

This is like the paper map vs GPS argument.  Which isn't really an argument, as they both do different - if overlapping - things, and have different failure modes that make them useful companions to each other.

Smart things, bank cards and cash can all be used to pay for things, unless you've left them at home, or the shop isn't able to deal with the one you want to use.  None are intrinsically better in that respect.  Phones can be located when you lose them, or bricked remotely when stolen, and do a zillion unrelated things.  Credit cards can open doors and make fraud Somebody Else's Problem.  Cash can provide anonymity, hide things from the taxman, work without electricity or boot a tyre.  All these things are useful.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I agree with Kim's statement about paper map vs GPS.

It won't be long before payment is taken by biometric scan, rather than relying on a device.

[Tim Hall]

"Could you lend me a (biometric) fiver?"

I think Shakespeare has explored that theory already.

Merchant of Venice, Act 4, Scene 1.

[Cudzoziemiec]

The Shakespearean mind is not constrained by the technology of the day!

[ian]

I agree with Kim's statement about paper map vs GPS.

It won't be long before payment is taken by biometric scan, rather than relying on a device.

Indeed, in many ways the smart device is on its own way to being redundant.

I'm stocked up with emergency cash at home, admittedly much of it might be in Ghanaian cedi. I have stopped carrying a wallet, I'm not a pockets kind of person, any unsightly bulge in my trousers is unlikely to be a wallet.

Many years ago, the local gas station wouldn't sell me a quart of milk for actual cash during a power outage, since they couldn't process the transaction through the till and seemingly didn't have the authority to process the transaction any other way.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I'm stocking up on glass beads just in case.

[The French Tandem]

and when the tech fails?

Mrs Nutty had a red face moment in the shop when her Garmin watch on which she replies so much suffered a flat battery at the checkout.  She had to come home to get her purse and go back.(she was reliant on the watch).

I'm surprised that there is not a kind of "safe mode" or "recovery mode" for when the battery is dead.

I'm not a specialist of these things, but I have a "keyless" car, which means you can get in the car and start the engine while the"key" remains in your pocket. When the battery in the"key" is dead, you can still run the car using a slightly more complex but workable procedure. I was assuming it was similar for smart watches

[ian]

There's a low power thing on an Apple Watch that shuts down everything but vital functions. No idea if it can do Apple Pay in this state, even though the watch is about three years old, it's yet to run out of battery in daily use.

[grams]

iPhones can do transit (i.e Oyster) swipes in and out with a dead battery but I don’t think they can authorise other payments.

I keep an emergency picture of the queen in the back of my phone case for this purpose.

ETA: It’s main use is for retailers with funny cash only / card minimums rather than dead batteries, since not letting your phone battery die is a basic personal skill in the modern world.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Making all your payments, mapping, unlocking your front door and starting your car, and other stuff by phone means only one thing to forget.

[ian]

Once it is biometric, you'll have trouble leaving the house without your face.

Of course, we've all seen Face/Off.

[Kim]

It’s main use is for retailers with funny cash only / card minimums rather than dead batteries, since not letting your phone battery die is a basic personal skill in the modern world.

I'd agree with this, too.  But I suspect there are personality types involved, with some people rarely allowing their battery to drop below about 70%, and others perpetually on the brink of power saving mode.

[Kim]

Of course, we've all seen Face/Off.

Only the first half.  It was boring and I fell asleep.

[Polar Bear]

We have literally just purchased a paper map in the last hour.   It seems to be working very well without a battery and bright light is not affecting our ability to see the detail.  And the screen is massive ...   

[FifeingEejit]

I think the big payment providers (Visa, Mastercard, Amex) also have numbered days.

At this stage it seems unlikely, between the first 2 they hold the patents and other gubbings for the EMV* system,its even got their names in it (Eurocard, Mastercard, visa)


* aka chip and pin, but has included contactless from the early days.



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[FifeingEejit]

A contactless card is in effect a card shaped dongle when it comes to payment.

Though don't phones etc bypass the card limit and the algorithm that forces you to enter your pin ever n transactions?

They create a virtual card, if you look at the receipt after paying by bonk you'll see a final set of digits that differ from your card, there's a whole whack of stuff involved that makes them considered more secure than bonking by card, but ive not worked on it since the early days of sticking an rfid chip in a Nokia changeable cover and rfid in phones was only just appearing on the horizon.

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[ian]

I think the big payment providers (Visa, Mastercard, Amex) also have numbered days.

At this stage it seems unlikely, between the first 2 they hold the patents and other gubbings for the EMV* system,its even got their names in it (Eurocard, Mastercard, visa)

* aka chip and pin, but has included contactless from the early days.

As I understand it, both Apple and Google circumvent EMV and in effect make it obsolete. The US never really adopted chip and pin anyway. Apple and Google effectively do away with the cards, creating one-time secure tokens for each transaction (which is very secure, there's no card to clone), there's no real need for the card or processors, since they can mediate directly with clearing to settle the transaction.

Increasingly, online retailers are offering Apple or Android Pay options, plus Amazon are muscling in with their own payment solution.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I think the big payment providers (Visa, Mastercard, Amex) also have numbered days.

At this stage it seems unlikely, between the first 2 they hold the patents and other gubbings for the EMV* system,its even got their names in it (Eurocard, Mastercard, visa)

* aka chip and pin, but has included contactless from the early days.

As I understand it, both Apple and Google circumvent EMV and in effect make it obsolete. The US never really adopted chip and pin anyway. Apple and Google effectively do away with the cards, creating one-time secure tokens for each transaction (which is very secure, there's no card to clone), there's no real need for the card or processors, since they can mediate directly with clearing to settle the transaction.

Increasingly, online retailers are offering Apple or Android Pay options, plus Amazon are muscling in with their own payment solution.

Who runs the clearing?

[ian]

At present the processor, but there's no reason it can't pass through an automated clearinghouse (as many electronic transactions already do), cutting the card processor out of the loop is desirable as they levy transaction and interchange fees for their networks and services. It won't happen overnight, we all have wallets full of Mastercards and Visa, plus those social deviants with Amex and Diners etc. but you have to figure the end game for Google, Apple and co is to own the payment space and both facilitate purchases and claim those interchange fees for themselves.

[FifeingEejit]

That would need the banks to play ball, both mastercard and visa used to be owned by the banks but looks like that's no longer the case.

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[Cudzoziemiec]

Card minimums are an odd thing. Totally understandable from the retailer's pov. But as more and more people don't carry cash (or card) they're going to have an influence on our shopping habits. Maybe people will become more and more inclined to just suck it up, as indeed they might postage, or maybe more and more bundling of purchases – but difficult cos card minimums only really hit when all you wanted was (tempting fate) a pint of milk – or maybe in the long run the retailers will have to suck it up.