DIsc brakes for a tourer; shall I just give in?

[Brucey]

IIRC the spyre is more likely to tickle the spokes than a BB7...?

The Spyre/Spyke brake has myriad tiny ball bearings inside, that suffer very badly if (when) they get corroded.

The Spyke/spyre brake also has pad adjusters that are held in position by optimism and some soft threadlock. Neither is properly effective...

cheers

[Cudzoziemiec]

That's actually a pretty good test for availability or more accurately ease of availability....

its a test; not a very good one, if you search anywhere using the wrong terms.  It should be obvious that hub brakes are available, Pashley (and others) don't get them made by pixies... Call me a boring old traditionalist but almost any LBS will get you any current SA hub from the wholesalers I mentioned previously.

Precisely. You have to ask for drum brakes, which you won't do unless you already want them.

[HeltorChasca]

I gave in a few years ago. You've got it coming

[joy of essex]

Yes, that looks like where I am going.

[Karla]

You know that bike is available in a non-disc version too, right?

[frankly frankie]

At least if your forks are equipped to carry front luggage that negates the most serious disadvantage of discs, which is the need for a beefed-up front fork.  Those forks kill 2 birds with one stone - which is central to cycle-touring, everything you carry should have at least 2 uses.

[joy of essex]

I  do  know that there are , or still are non disc versions. The point I am raising in this  thread is that, whatever the relative merits of rim brakes or disc brakes; and I am don't believe that one in necessarily better,  a  tourer which  will  go off road, as any tourer should , will  in future  have disc brakes.

Personally, I'd rather have Weinman centre pulls.
 

[Karla]

I doubt you're going to struggle to get non-disc touring wheels any time in the near or medium future.  Most touring cyclists are well known for being antiquarian.

[Oscar's dad]

I gave in a few years ago. You've got it coming

I have one of them!  With TRP Spyre brakes - its all good.

[Blodwyn Pig]

WP_20170331_10_40_33_Pro by mark tilley, on Flickr

I  gave in  as well.  Took me awhile to appreciate the discs. I have C.2004 Shimano hydraulics on my MTB, and they are awesome, but these Spyres , less so. But still good and consistent. This is my 'do it all' bike, as I hoped it would be, and as such it also gets used for quite a bit of 'ruff stuff' riding, and when you ride thro large farm track puddles, the brakes work , without the graunching and grinding twixt pad and rim.

[Oscar's dad]

Fred my Disc Trucker all packed with about 33kg of kit ahead of a 5 day 390 mile tour.  Disc brakes are great for heavily loaded stopping; obviously rim brakes are fine too but discs mean you don't have to squeeze so hard on the levers so it's easier on your hands in hilly terrain...

[mattc]

...
  a  tourer which  will  go off road, as any tourer should , will  in future  have disc brakes.

The future (and present) of off-road touring looks like this:

http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2014/12/2015-Toyota-Tacoma-TRD-Pro-rear-three-quarter-in-motion-02.jpg
(it probably has disc brakes)

If you are using something invented decades before that, you are already obsolete my friend.

[Kim]

Fred my Disc Trucker all packed with about 33kg of kit ahead of a 5 day 390 mile tour.  Disc brakes are great for heavily loaded stopping; obviously rim brakes are fine too but discs mean you don't have to squeeze so hard on the levers so it's easier on your hands in hilly terrain...

TBH, I think that's more of a proper MTB brakes vs crappy road bike brakes distinction than rim vs disc.  Decent V-brakes or hydraulic rim brakes require no more lever-squeezing than discs (though obviously you still get lag when it's wet).  If I were specifying a rim-braked tourer, those would be the only options I'd be considering, for exactly this reason.  (At which point it would come down to the reliability of hydraulics vs the roadside fettleability of Vs.)

[cameronp]

TBH, I think that's more of a proper MTB brakes vs crappy road bike brakes distinction than rim vs disc.  Decent V-brakes or hydraulic rim brakes require no more lever-squeezing than discs (though obviously you still get lag when it's wet).  If I were specifying a rim-braked tourer, those would be the only options I'd be considering, for exactly this reason.

I'm not convinced it's that simple. The brakes on my road bike (Ultegra dual pivot calipers) require rather less hand effort than the brakes on my touring bike (XT V brakes), using drop bar levers on both, and Koolstop Salmon pads on both.

Part of the reason that "proper MTB brakes" feel so much stronger is that MTB brake levers are operated with your hand in a much stronger position than the hoods of a drop bar, which is the position that most riders spend most of their time. From the drops, I can lift the rear wheel of my road bike with one finger. From the hoods, not so much.

V brakes also have a much worse lever feel, even using flat bar levers, than decent road caliper brakes.

Cantis have no redeeming qualities and can die in a fire.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I think a lot of that difference is due to braking from the hoods. Brake from the drops and the feel, power and control are much improved. It all comes down to leverage, I suppose.

Edit: Crosspost with Cameron p.

[Kim]

TBH, I think that's more of a proper MTB brakes vs crappy road bike brakes distinction than rim vs disc.  Decent V-brakes or hydraulic rim brakes require no more lever-squeezing than discs (though obviously you still get lag when it's wet).  If I were specifying a rim-braked tourer, those would be the only options I'd be considering, for exactly this reason.

I'm not convinced it's that simple. The brakes on my road bike (Ultegra dual pivot calipers) require rather less hand effort than the brakes on my touring bike (XT V brakes), using drop bar levers on both, and Koolstop Salmon pads on both.

Don't drop bar levers have the wrong pull ratio for V brakes?  Or is there a thingy?

Part of the reason that "proper MTB brakes" feel so much stronger is that MTB brake levers are operated with your hand in a much stronger position than the hoods of a drop bar, which is the position that most riders spend most of their time. From the drops, I can lift the rear wheel of my road bike with one finger. From the hoods, not so much.

This is why I eschew drop bars.  Not only is the leverage all wrong from the hoods, but the ergonomic compromise inherent in making a thing you operate the brakes with double as a thing you support your arms on means that they're always slightly too big for decent grip.  Though I assume that's less of an issue if you have larger hands.

Braking from the drops, sure, but if you're making a habit of braking from your least stable most aerodynamic position, you've not anticipated properly.

While we're on the subject, with USS you generally have MTB brake levers mounted the opposite way round to usual, giving maximum leverage for the stronger, longer fingers.  It works really well.  Interesting that levers designed to operate this way round never became a thing.

[cameronp]

Don't drop bar levers have the wrong pull ratio for V brakes?  Or is there a thingy?

There's a thingy, or you can get drop bar levers with the right pull ratio.

Braking from the drops, sure, but if you're making a habit of braking from your least stable most aerodynamic position, you've not anticipated properly.

Terrible in an urban traffic situation but perfect for descending or riding on bumpy terrain.

[Kim]

When I'm descending, I stop being deliberately aero before I reach for the brakes.  Less work for them to do.

Hadn't thought of drops as an advantage when it's bumpy.

[Oscar's dad]

Now we're getting into a debate on drop bars v flat bars for touring    yacf ought to change it's url to goingoffonatangent.co.uk 

I agree with Kim that flat bars and the appropriate brake levers are betterer from a braking efficiency point of view.  For my style of riding, which doesn't need to be fast or racey, flat bars would be fine.  But with the exception of Penelope the shopping bike all my bikes have drop bars as I like the additional hand positions drop bars afford and you can get down out of a head wind. 

Kim also makes a good point about hand size.  I have quite small hands and have found that the combination of Salsa Woodchipper bars and TRP RRL SR levers works well, particularly when riding on the hoods, its easy for me to exert a goodly amount of brake lever pressure.

[Kim]

But with the exception of Penelope the shopping bike all my bikes have drop bars as I like the additional hand positions drop bars afford and you can get down out of a head wind.

Obviously, I'm of the opinion that there are much better ways to solve those particular problems that don't compromise your braking (indeed, quite the opposite)...   Come over to the darkside.  We have stroopwafels. 

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've heard, but I've never used them, that Campag hoods are better for small hands and for braking from the hoods, than Shimano. Not sure about Sram. I agree about woodchipper-style bars; I have some less dramatically flared bars on the Sequoia, they're great for braking, for riding on the hoods generally, and for the limited off-road I do.

[bobb]

a  tourer which  will  go off road, as any tourer should , will  in future  have disc brakes.

If you ever go on a tour organised by Oscar's dad, you're gunna need more than disc brakes to get you through the off road sections!! 

[Brucey]

.

Cantis have no redeeming qualities and can die in a fire.

You should remember that Vs are actually a form of cantilever brake, that was first used about seventy years ago.

 I will put in a good word for cantis.  The one difference / advantage they usually have (except in wide arm format) over pretty much every other brake (except perhaps those operated with avid speed dial levers) is that the mechanical advantage is adjustable.

This strength is also a weakness, in that it gives plenty of opportunity for those who don't know the difference to set them up badly.  If you choose the right combination of levers and canti brakes, you can have basically the same MA in the brakes as with V brakes, expect they will work from more STIs, more easily, they work with generous clearance mudguards and fat tyres (unlike anything other than a full V) and they don't get fecked every time the steering swings fully to one side. 

Cantis are widely maligned, IMHO mostly by folk who ought to know better.  I quite like cantis.

cheers

[SA_SA_SA_SA]

....drop bars.  Not only is the leverage all wrong from the hoods, but the ergonomic compromise inherent in making a thing you operate the brakes with double as a thing you support your arms on means that they're always slightly too big for decent grip. 

Don't V brakes and proper V Drop levers (ie Tektro RL-520 or their cane creek equivalents) solve the 1st for most, and, not being bulky STI help a bit with the 2nd, even if not enough for everyone? With a front V and RL520 lever I would only brake from the drops if I was using them or front brake failed (cos rear is a SA hub brake).
I like drops and V front brake: I replaced my 'MTB' straights with drops because so much better for riding.

[frankly frankie]

Cantis are widely maligned, and understandably so.

Now we're getting into a debate on drop bars v flat bars for touring

Bull-horns combine the best of both - well, maybe not for touring (though I use them as a tourist), but certainly for commuting.
And I can't quite believe I'm having a conversation with someone who gives his bikes names