New tubeless convert... or so I thought

[jiberjaber]

Summer Pro One 25mm 90psi

Winter Sector 32mm 60psi

How do they compare? No punctures. Potholes or otherwise. It's hard to comment on bottoming out differences objectively. The sidewalls are a bit thicker, but whether tubeless bottom out less I couldn't say.

All I can say is that I've had punctures from hitting potholes on tubed tyres but not tubeless. Therefore, on tubeless, and particularly the Sectors, I dont feel I need to take so much evasive action.

Thanks. By "how do they compare?" I meant whether you were using the same pressures as you would in tubes, but all useful info from experience (and clearly you're using more than 40psi!).

Just to ring the bell for low pressure, I'm using 40-45psi on 30c G-one speed's and I'm a big chap   The pressure range on them is 50-80 PSI iirc
I used to try and keep them at 60-70psi (as that is what I was eventually running my tubed Durano Plus at) but I discovered after a week they would gravitate to 40-45psi and stay there, so I've not bothered to keep them topped up unless there's been a visitation I've not noticed and they appear exceptionally squidgy.  Sometimes I treat them to a bit more pressure another 10psi or so).

I've just measured them now and they were both 40psi again, I recall pumping them up before I headed up North for the weekends fun, but can't remember what I pumped them up to.  I've just pumped them up to 60 each, so will see what they are before I head out tomorrow evening... I suspect they won't be 60 psi

[Brucey]

But I would say that if you choose tyres that are more appropriate to the conditions, you would not be getting many 'annoyance' type punctures anyway. 

That seems to imply that some punctures are enjoyable!!!

rather I meant that some punctures are catastrophic and (almost regardless of tyre) unavoidable...

[BTW out of curiosity I have run tyres with various different boots in to destruction and not all boots are made equal by any means.]

I wonder how long a boot can last for? ....

If it is the right kind of boot, a very long time. Rubber -only boots work up to a certain point (pressure vs hole size), in good part because rubber has an 'S' shaped load-extension curve a bit like this



Provided the loads remain in the first (steep) part of the curve, the boot won't swell out of the hole like some kind of an aneurysm. The split in the carcass may still extend over time though.

However if fabric is used as well then bigger holes can be booted and the resultant repair can last a very long time indeed. {NB if fabric only is used, it may fray and fail at the edges of the hole in the carcass, because it is locally severely strained}.

My best booting method to date has been a layer of rubber and then four layers of umbrella fabric, with the weave oriented to match the crossed plies in the tyre carcass. In tests a ~10mm long gash with such a 'brolly boot' outlasted the rest of the tyre.  I used to carry a piece of tubular tyre carcass canvas as a boot; I now carry some brolly fabric instead.

cheers

[Samuel D]

Does it really make a blind bit of difference if you run a 'performance tyre' on your training/commuting bike in the winter?

Perhaps not, but I don’t properly train or commute but ride for the sheer pleasure of it. I enjoy the extraordinary efficiency of a bicycle with nice tyres – even on a winter’s day.

Even with lightweight tyres in a big city, I don’t have a notable problem with punctures, though.

I find that racier tyres almost invariably have better grip than tougher winter tyres. For some, that may be worth the penalties that come with riding lighter tyres in conditions that make punctures more likely.

The tests done by bicyclerollingresistance seem to agree with that.

Which tests are you referring to? I haven’t seen any grip tests on that site (or anywhere, sadly).

[mrcharly-YHT]

They don't test grip, but they have noted several times that tyres aimed at wet winter riding with softer rubber have higher rolling resistance. Often those tyres have comparatively thicker tread so it is hard to work out if it is the thickness or the rubber compound that is making the difference.

[Samuel D]

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

[zigzag]

Has anyone ever seen (or seen photographic evidence of) a pinch flat in a latex tube? It has never happened to me despite bombing through a fair few craters on the mean streets of Paris. Since latex tubes are stretchier than regular tubes, it may border on impossible to get a pinch flat in a latex tube without also damaging the rim.

border on impossible? i had two this year

one riding over a piece of brick in germany during the tcr, front tyre 80ish psi, classic pinch flat, no damage to alloy rim

another, on an audax, bunny hopping a trench on the road (road works section), overestimated my speed, landed right on the edge with my rear wheel, pinch flat at 90psi, no damage to a carbon rim

latex tyres being more stretchy are not immune to pinch flats, that's for sure.

[Samuel D]

Thanks for the report, zigzag. Only one person I ride with uses latex tubes, and he prefers very high pressures. And as I said, I’ve never had a pinch flat with latex.

Your pressures sound fairly low, though I guess you’re not heavy.

[mzjo]

Why should tubeless tyres be so difficult to fit? Ok they might need a bit of assistance but I don't find the tubeless tyres on my baggage trailer particularly difficult to fit , no more than their tubed equivalents; and I can seat them without needing more pressure than I can get out of a bicycle footpump. I am sure that there is still a lot of progress waiting to be made in this equipment. Unseating tubeless tyres can be a different matter of course and I imagine that finding a way to use your heel to unseat a bicycle tubeless tyre on a disc wheel at the side of the road could be challenging (but I suppose the experienced tubeless users will tell me this is a non-issue).

FWIW I appreciate Brucey's sentiments on this one; I like tyres and rims that are easy to fit.

[sojournermike]

Has anyone ever seen (or seen photographic evidence of) a pinch flat in a latex tube? It has never happened to me despite bombing through a fair few craters on the mean streets of Paris. Since latex tubes are stretchier than regular tubes, it may border on impossible to get a pinch flat in a latex tube without also damaging the rim.

border on impossible? i had two this year

one riding over a piece of brick in germany during the tcr, front tyre 80ish psi, classic pinch flat, no damage to alloy rim

another, on an audax, bunny hopping a trench on the road (road works section), overestimated my speed, landed right on the edge with my rear wheel, pinch flat at 90psi, no damage to a carbon rim

latex tyres being more stretchy are not immune to pinch flats, that's for sure.

What size tyres - those pressures don't sound low to me:)

I was getting worried that I was running my tyres too soft, but Malcolm at Cycle Clinic has commented somewhere that 25s don't need to be run above 80 to 85, so that's consistent with my experience too.

[zigzag]

continuing on a tubeless topic, initially i was a "convert" (they roll nice and can seal some punctures). i am now of opinion, that they definitely work for mtb tyres, and for the road if tyres are 30+mm and the pressure is in the range of ~40-80psi. i am sure the tubeless technology will improve in coming years for the higher pressure tyres but as it is now i prefer tyres with inner tubes. it is super quick and simple to fix the tubed tyre, especially during a club ride when the mates lend a helping hand. it was not the case with tubeless setups several (3-4?) times which took around 15min to get going - riders cool down in 5min and start shivering after 10min in winter - not acceptable!!

[zigzag]

Has anyone ever seen (or seen photographic evidence of) a pinch flat in a latex tube? It has never happened to me despite bombing through a fair few craters on the mean streets of Paris. Since latex tubes are stretchier than regular tubes, it may border on impossible to get a pinch flat in a latex tube without also damaging the rim.

border on impossible? i had two this year

one riding over a piece of brick in germany during the tcr, front tyre 80ish psi, classic pinch flat, no damage to alloy rim

another, on an audax, bunny hopping a trench on the road (road works section), overestimated my speed, landed right on the edge with my rear wheel, pinch flat at 90psi, no damage to a carbon rim

latex tyres being more stretchy are not immune to pinch flats, that's for sure.

What size tyres - those pressures don't sound low to me:)

I was getting worried that I was running my tyres too soft, but Malcolm at Cycle Clinic has commented somewhere that 25s don't need to be run above 80 to 85, so that's consistent with my experience too.

the first case was with a 25mm, the second with a 23mm tyres - those pressures suit me well.

[sojournermike]

Has anyone ever seen (or seen photographic evidence of) a pinch flat in a latex tube? It has never happened to me despite bombing through a fair few craters on the mean streets of Paris. Since latex tubes are stretchier than regular tubes, it may border on impossible to get a pinch flat in a latex tube without also damaging the rim.

border on impossible? i had two this year

one riding over a piece of brick in germany during the tcr, front tyre 80ish psi, classic pinch flat, no damage to alloy rim

another, on an audax, bunny hopping a trench on the road (road works section), overestimated my speed, landed right on the edge with my rear wheel, pinch flat at 90psi, no damage to a carbon rim

latex tyres being more stretchy are not immune to pinch flats, that's for sure.

What size tyres - those pressures don't sound low to me:)

I was getting worried that I was running my tyres too soft, but Malcolm at Cycle Clinic has commented somewhere that 25s don't need to be run above 80 to 85, so that's consistent with my experience too.

the first case was with a 25mm, the second with a 23mm tyres - those pressures suit me well.

Ah, similar to mine then.

[dim]

My best booting method to date has been a layer of rubber and then four layers of umbrella fabric, with the weave oriented to match the crossed plies in the tyre carcass. In tests a ~10mm long gash with such a 'brolly boot' outlasted the rest of the tyre.  I used to carry a piece of tubular tyre carcass canvas as a boot; I now carry some brolly fabric instead.

cheers

the tubeless tyres that I am using (2017 IRC Formula Pro RBCC ) has a natural latex lining on the inside, which allows you to use a patch on the inside of the tyre if the hole is too large (thats what I have read)

I rate these highly (so far) but saying that, I have only used them for 811 km so far .... they still look brand new, seem very durable and roll very well and grip is superb both in the wet and dry .... (one puncture on the front tyre and that sealed)

I searched for details on rolling resistance, and the cycle clinic (where I bought them from has added info on the description, namely  rolling resistance at 80 psi with 40 kg of load at 30 kph is 15.2W.) .... I will buy these again:
https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/road-tyres/products/2017-irc-formula-pro-rbcc-tubeless-road-tyres

I use clinchers on my daily commuter (1981 Koga Miyata Full pro), and am currently using Vittoria Open Pave CGIII .... when these need replacing, I will look at the IRC clincher tyres for the remainder of winter:

IRC Aspite Pro Wet road clincher tyre .... https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/road-tyres/products/irc-aspite-wet-dry-road-clincher-tyres

I have just bought another bike (Canyon Endurace) which I will setup for long Audax rides (it already has a compact chainset, and will add an 11-32 (or similar cassette), Son 28 Dynamo hub, dynamo lights, Apidura bags etc and I will have a light wheelset built by my LBS .... these will be tubeless ready rims .... for these, I may look at tubeless that are very durable such as Hutchinson Sector 28 (Steven Abraham rates them highly)

[mzjo]

If people have tried new technology and decide the benefits are not worth the disadvantages it is an intelligent and rational response. Anything else is ludditism.

The last bike I bought had di2, hydro discs and tubeless ready wheels (which I promptly fitted with tubeless tyres). It was a deliberate decision to adopt all 3 new technologies and I have to say I like all 3.

Of the 3, the brakes have no disadvantages (bar cost and weight penalty) over any other braking system but loads of advantages.

The tubeless system has some disadvantages (cost, fiddly installation) but the advantages outweigh. For me.

Di2 works amazingly.  Maintenance free bar battery charging, faultless shifting always, not cables to degrade. However it does have a huge cost penalty, and the upgrade/replacement  path may get complicated.

There will be people who deny the advantages, but they tend to be know-it-alls who have never owned any of it. Beyond that, it is up to people to make their own decisions with regards to cost/benefits and if the decision is based on knowledge and experience it isn't fair to mock.

I haven't bought a new bike for a very long time so for me:

1. Disc brakes have the following disadvantages - cost and weight (which would be a definitive exclusion anyway) - plus they need a disc specific frame (which I don't have 'cos no-one has yet given me/scrapped one). The exception to this is the mtb which has a disc specific sus fork and could take (will be getting when I can find one for free) a disc at the back. The rear V ddoesn't open wide enough to get the rear wheel out easily.
2. Tubeless may have advantages but I don't see enough potholes and I don't have enough punctures to test this. Aside the fact that no-one I know is giving away his old tubeless wheels (because I don't know anyone who has them) and the cost of the tyres, I don't have a frame that will take rims that wide.
3. Di2 could tempt me but the cost is a definitive excluder (and I'm happy with unindexed bar-ends!).

I hope that all this will change and that I will come round to Flatus' view before I'm in my tomb (but "hope for the best, expect the worst"). My late friend Tonton Paul said of his disc-equipped Dawes tourer (Explorer, I think) that he really appreciated the consistent performance of the cable discs on it. He also said that it was amazing how much bike design had come along since the old dogs that he used to ride (and that I still do!)

[dim]

Has anyone ever seen (or seen photographic evidence of) a pinch flat in a latex tube? It has never happened to me despite bombing through a fair few craters on the mean streets of Paris. Since latex tubes are stretchier than regular tubes, it may border on impossible to get a pinch flat in a latex tube without also damaging the rim.

border on impossible? i had two this year

one riding over a piece of brick in germany during the tcr, front tyre 80ish psi, classic pinch flat, no damage to alloy rim

another, on an audax, bunny hopping a trench on the road (road works section), overestimated my speed, landed right on the edge with my rear wheel, pinch flat at 90psi, no damage to a carbon rim

latex tyres being more stretchy are not immune to pinch flats, that's for sure.

What size tyres - those pressures don't sound low to me:)

I was getting worried that I was running my tyres too soft, but Malcolm at Cycle Clinic has commented somewhere that 25s don't need to be run above 80 to 85, so that's consistent with my experience too.

the first case was with a 25mm, the second with a 23mm tyres - those pressures suit me well.

Ah, similar to mine then.

I contacted Malcolm at Cycle Clinic before I bought my IRC tyres and asked him what rimtape to use, sealant, pressures etc .... his reply was:

The 25mm RBCC tyres will measure 25mm wide on the HED rims the 28's well you have guessed right 28mm on HED rims.

There is a guide regarding tubeless tyre repair on the news section of the website.

tyre pressure is up to you. I run between 50 and 80psi depending on whether I can be bothered to pump the tyres up.
Effetto mariposa is what I use. Tape well .... the HED rims are tricky

tubeless installation can be awkward. Many layers of VAR or Stans tape maybe needed. you may need just two layers. I have always suceeded though in getting tubeless tyre set up on them.
........

I bought the 25's as they match the width of the HED Belgium Plus rims .... My LBS (who also uses tubeless on his Audax rides) used 2 layers of tape, and I'm using the Orange sealant instead of the Effetto mariposa (I read on another forum that it is better) ....

I experemented with tyre pressures and found that 70 on the front, and 75 on the back is fast and comfy for me (I weigh 74kg), and I am using the 25's .... 80 pressure was too hard and bumpy on the roads that I travel ...  .... I tried 60-65, but found it too squigy

[sojournermike]

Has anyone ever seen (or seen photographic evidence of) a pinch flat in a latex tube? It has never happened to me despite bombing through a fair few craters on the mean streets of Paris. Since latex tubes are stretchier than regular tubes, it may border on impossible to get a pinch flat in a latex tube without also damaging the rim.

border on impossible? i had two this year

one riding over a piece of brick in germany during the tcr, front tyre 80ish psi, classic pinch flat, no damage to alloy rim

another, on an audax, bunny hopping a trench on the road (road works section), overestimated my speed, landed right on the edge with my rear wheel, pinch flat at 90psi, no damage to a carbon rim

latex tyres being more stretchy are not immune to pinch flats, that's for sure.

What size tyres - those pressures don't sound low to me:)

I was getting worried that I was running my tyres too soft, but Malcolm at Cycle Clinic has commented somewhere that 25s don't need to be run above 80 to 85, so that's consistent with my experience too.

the first case was with a 25mm, the second with a 23mm tyres - those pressures suit me well.

Ah, similar to mine then.

I contacted Malcolm at Cycle Clinic before I bought my IRC tyres and asked him what rimtape to use, sealant, pressures etc .... his reply was:

The 25mm RBCC tyres will measure 25mm wide on the HED rims the 28's well you have guessed right 28mm on HED rims.

There is a guide regarding tubeless tyre repair on the news section of the website.

tyre pressure is up to you. I run between 50 and 80psi depending on whether I can be bothered to pump the tyres up.
Effetto mariposa is what I use. Tape well .... the HED rims are tricky

tubeless installation can be awkward. Many layers of VAR or Stans tape maybe needed. you may need just two layers. I have always suceeded though in getting tubeless tyre set up on them.
........

My LBS used 2 layers of tape, and I'm using the Orange sealant .... I experemented with tyre pressures and found that 70 on the front, and 75 on the back is fast and comfy for me (I weigh 74kg), and I am using the 25's .... 80 pressure was too hard and bumpy on the roads that I travel ...  .... I tried 60-65, but found it too squigy

That's interesting. I'm mostly on the Kinlin rims and they mount and set up easily in general. I use some 3M tape that I bought 200m of, as it seems to be identical to the Effeto Mariposa tape (I prefer to Stans), but much, much less expensive. I've just moved from the effeto sealant to Orange Endurance.

Agree on pressures again. Long gone are the days I inflated anything to 120...

[Samuel D]

I searched for details on rolling resistance, and the cycle clinic (where I bought them from has added info on the description, namely  rolling resistance at 80 psi with 40 kg of load at 30 kph is 15.2W.)

According to Bicycle Rolling Resistance, that’s roughly 3 W more than my Schwalbe One HS 448 with a latex tube, though since I use higher pressures the difference would be even greater on good tarmac. I would not be willing to pay that price for fewer (than very few) punctures.

[dim]

That's interesting. I'm mostly on the Kinlin rims and they mount and set up easily in general. I use some 3M tape that I bought 200m of, as it seems to be identical to the Effeto Mariposa tape (I prefer to Stans), but much, much less expensive. I've just moved from the effeto sealant to Orange Endurance.

Agree on pressures again. Long gone are the days I inflated anything to 120...

some guys on the weight weenies forum use Gorilla tape and they have no probs .... I'm not sure which tape my LBS used, but I think it could be Stans

[dim]

I searched for details on rolling resistance, and the cycle clinic (where I bought them from has added info on the description, namely  rolling resistance at 80 psi with 40 kg of load at 30 kph is 15.2W.)

According to Bicycle Rolling Resistance, that’s roughly 3 W more than my Schwalbe One HS 448 with a latex tube, though since I use higher pressures the difference would be even greater on good tarmac. I would not be willing to pay that price for fewer (than very few) punctures.

fair point .... but would you fit Schwalbe One HS 448 if you were to ride LEL or PBP?

if you want fast and fairly durable, try Specialized Turbo Cottons with latex tubes (my favourite clincher ....)

[Samuel D]

I’m not sure what I’d use for such a ride. Repairing a puncture is probably a big deal psychologically and physically after 1,000 km and hardly any sleep. I wouldn’t know how I’d react to that.

On the other hand, the slower you go, the greater is the proportion of your power spent overcoming rolling resistance. So for long-distance riding, low rolling resistance has a large benefit. And aerodynamic drag matters less too, so the ideal tyre leans wider. This then gets into territory where tubeless makes more sense (though I’d still not choose it myself).

Turbo Cottons look fantastic, but I can’t bring myself to spend that sort of money. Maybe one day.

[Brucey]

Why should tubeless tyres be so difficult to fit? Ok they might need a bit of assistance but I don't find the tubeless tyres on my baggage trailer particularly difficult to fit , no more than their tubed equivalents; and I can seat them without needing more pressure than I can get out of a bicycle footpump....

tubeless tyres need to seat more precisely on a bead seat in order to seal. Add a slightly stretchy tyre bead and it is virtually guaranteed that they will be a tighter fit. For some reason the well of a tubeless rim is usually shallower too, which makes the tyres difficult to fit.  Note those who proudly announce that 'they fitted brand X tubeless tyres without tyre levers'..... .... wtf..!!

The standard arrangement (in other applications than bicycles) is that a tubeless tyre is made nice and round, has a stiff bead, relatively stiff sidewalls, and a carefully moulded lip on the bead of the tyre. The net result of these things is that once the tyre is on the rim, it wants to seal and does so without great difficulty.

 Maybe your trailer tyres are more like that than they are like other current bicycle tyres, which are not nice and round, are not accurately sized, don't have stiff beads, don't have much in the way of a nice lip or stiff sidewalls.  IME current 'performance oriented' tubeless bicycle tyres don't fit and seal as well as other tubeless  tyres. Will they ever?  Well, probably not; the stiff sidewalls make for relatively high rolling resistance, which is tolerated in other applications but not so much in bicycles.

To put it in perspective, at ~50mph about 50% of the power that a car uses is expended against rolling resistance. The Crr values of good car tyres are not very good in bicycle terms (about x5 worse in round numbers I think). Car tyres are heavy, too; four car tyres (that support a car of 2000kg all up weight) weigh in the region of 50kg, i.e. 1/40th of the all-up weight of the vehicle is tyres. A typical value for a bicycle is in the region of 1/100th and racing bikes come in nearer 1/200th.  You might then take it as read that the experience with other types of tubeless tyre won't translate easily and directly to performance oriented bicycles.

cheers

[zigzag]

i don't need tyre levers to fit tubeless tyre (on a tubeless rim), but need them to unmount the tyre. also need a decent pump to get the tyre seated properly.

[dim]

Note those who proudly announce that 'they fitted brand X tubeless tyres without tyre levers'..... .... wtf..!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCb8_PP-8O4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCb8_PP-8O4

[Hot Flatus]

snip

I haven't bought a new bike for a very long time so for me:

1. Disc brakes have the following disadvantages - cost and weight (which would be a definitive exclusion anyway) - plus they need a disc specific frame (which I don't have 'cos no-one has yet given me/scrapped one). The exception to this is the mtb which has a disc specific sus fork and could take (will be getting when I can find one for free) a disc at the back. The rear V ddoesn't open wide enough to get the rear wheel out easily.
2. Tubeless may have advantages but I don't see enough potholes and I don't have enough punctures to test this. Aside the fact that no-one I know is giving away his old tubeless wheels (because I don't know anyone who has them) and the cost of the tyres, I don't have a frame that will take rims that wide.
3. Di2 could tempt me but the cost is a definitive excluder (and I'm happy with unindexed bar-ends!).

I hope that all this will change and that I will come round to Flatus' view before I'm in my tomb (but "hope for the best, expect the worst"). My late friend Tonton Paul said of his disc-equipped Dawes tourer (Explorer, I think) that he really appreciated the consistent performance of the cable discs on it. He also said that it was amazing how much bike design had come along since the old dogs that he used to ride (and that I still do!)

To be honest, if I had to give up one it would be the DI2. It is the one with the biggest cost penalty, and the advantages are less in superior  function than in not having to do anything to maintain superior function. 

Next up would be tubeless. Again, it's the lack of frequent maintenance that is the advantage.

The one I would be loath to give up is the hydro discs. There you have a really clear performance advantage. It's not the overall power. It's the predictability and fine control you have over that power...plus of course identical performance in the wet. The prospect of being able to buy good quality rims as a very long term investment also appeals.

[Bolt]

Although I've taken up the case with Wiggle as the bike was not advertised as only being "tubeless ready" I have to say I'm not overly fussed, as I'm delighted with the bike and this experience seems to confirm my original skepticism regarding tubeless.  Even if they concede and give me a tubeless "kit" I'm struggling to see what advantage it would give me?

Well Wiggle responded well to my complaint and have generously given me a £100 voucher so I now feel duty bound to order some tape, valves and sealant and give it a go.  FWIW I found the Stans Radler rims fitted with Clement Strada Ush tyres extremely easy to refit by hand after my original exploration.