Ti bike mistake?

[BobScarle]

I am loathe to admit that I may have made a mistake but it is possible. An expensive one at that.

In February I bought a Ti Sabbath September frame with carbon forks and built it up as my audax / light touring bike. Wheels were built by Spa on  36 hole Exal LX17 rims with an SP dynamo at the front and an Ultegra hub at the back. It has a 10 speed cassette married to a triple. A rack with a Carradice Super C bag and a small Ortlieb bar bag carry everything I need.

So what's the problem? That looks on paper to be a decent setup. It is. The bike is comfortable, and..... Well that's it, there is no "and". There is no "smile factor", no "fun". I know it's not a lightweight thrash round the lanes bike, I have a Canyon for that. I just want this bike to be a bit more fun to ride, it just feels like hard work. It feels stodgy. I don't want easy but I would like to feel some "reward".

So, there it is. Is it me? I am certainly working on that over the winter (mostly on the turbo). Or is it the bike? I have thought about changing the wheels. Don't want to go really lightweight because of the intended use.  Maybe I shouldn't have sold my steel bike to buy this. Any thoughts would be most welcome.

[mattc]

Two questions:

- what size is it? and

- when can I collect it?

[BobScarle]

Two questions:

- what size is it? and

- when can I collect it?

It's a 54 and anytime this afternoon.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Try a faster set of tyres first. That usually makes a significant difference to my enjoyment of a bike.

[Samuel D]

Change the tyres to something in the 11- or 12-watt range on Bicycle Rolling Resistance’s chart (on the right, scroll down). Use Michelin latex tubes while you’re at it. You won’t believe the difference.

I know I keep banging this drum, but that’s because there are still pockets of resistance to this message! What’s the point in buying a nice bicycle and then putting Duranos or Gatorskins on it from new? Tyres like that should be seen as last-ditch efforts to halt a protracted and intolerable spate of punctures.

[mattc]

Two questions:

- what size is it? and

- when can I collect it?

It's a 54 and anytime this afternoon.

well that's at the small end for me, but will almost certainly work. Did I mention I don't have any money?

[Jethro]

I bought a new Ribble 365 carbon frameset a couple of years ago and had the same feeling that you describe even though I had another carbon bike which felt completely different (a Pinarello Dogma).  OK there was clearly a huge price difference. A friend of mine simply said "you get what you pay for". 

Regarding titanium, I just love my Van Nicholas Yukon (I have two of them now) and my Enigma Etape.  I have never tried any of the other titanium frames/bikes out there but am aware that there are different types of titanium tubing.

[ACyclingRooster]

It takes a brave man or woman to admit and especially publically that they got it wrong.
Analyze what it is exactly that you are unhappy about/with and modify/replace them/it rather than give up on it.

[chrisbainbridge]

can you swap in a different set of wheels?  These days reasonable spoke count carbon rims are very light and reliable. 

[Paul H]

I've always had an Audax type bike, I'm on my third, and they hardly get ridden, even for Audax. Sometimes the idea of what we want isn't the reality and what is the perfect set up on paper doesn't transfer tot he road.  Of course it's worth swapping wheels around to see it that changes it, but if it ends up being the wrong bike for you, don't beat yourself up about it, it probably isn't the most expensive mistake you'll ever make!

[vorsprung]

Agree about the wheels / tyres

My 2nd best bike now has LX17 on it.  Their main advantage as rims is that they are cheap and exactly the same ERD as an Open Pro

When I got a 50th birthday present bike I also got handmade wheels built by a Pro wheel builder.  I did spend far too much on the wheels, but it seemed to work and that bike is fab to ride.  That bike has also had a succession of high end tyres (until now, it has cheap Vittorias at the moment)

[morbihan]

Owner of 3 ti bikes here. 2 x Firefly and a van Nicholas yukon.
All different animals. The yukon is set up with triple and straight bars.
One Firefly is a road racer, while the other is all-road/endurance/disc
Lots of journeys in all guises done on all three, (40,000km between them)  and different wheel sets have been swapped in and out.
I'd say the most marked characteristic between them all is the set of the fork.
Does your bike have a Harley Davidson style fork?
I'd concur with alternating wheels/tires too.

[De Sisti]

Agree about the wheels / tyres

My 2nd best bike now has LX17 on it.  Their main advantage as rims is that they are cheap and exactly the same ERD as an Open Pro

ERD? What's that then?

[mrcharly-YHT]

ERD is the 'real' diameter of the wheel, the diameter that you want to know when calculating spoke lengths.

Looking up the sabbath sept, it is a plain gauge ti bike. I would expect it to be a stolid, unexciting ride. Pretty much as you've described.

[rogerzilla]

Check the saddle position against a known good ride.  Having it 10mm out either up/down or fore/aft can make a huge difference to power output.  Never set saddle setback by measuring from the stem.  Get it right relative to the BB and then change the stem if you have to.

[Pickled Onion]

Go somewhere cool on it, you won't care about the bike other than that it's comfortable and carries your stuff, you'll be enjoying the scenery.

[dim]

I am loathe to admit that I may have made a mistake but it is possible. An expensive one at that.

In February I bought a Ti Sabbath September frame with carbon forks and built it up as my audax / light touring bike. Wheels were built by Spa on  36 hole Exal LX17 rims with an SP dynamo at the front and an Ultegra hub at the back. It has a 10 speed cassette married to a triple. A rack with a Carradice Super C bag and a small Ortlieb bar bag carry everything I need.

So what's the problem? That looks on paper to be a decent setup. It is. The bike is comfortable, and..... Well that's it, there is no "and". There is no "smile factor", no "fun". I know it's not a lightweight thrash round the lanes bike, I have a Canyon for that. I just want this bike to be a bit more fun to ride, it just feels like hard work. It feels stodgy. I don't want easy but I would like to feel some "reward".

So, there it is. Is it me? I am certainly working on that over the winter (mostly on the turbo). Or is it the bike? I have thought about changing the wheels. Don't want to go really lightweight because of the intended use.  Maybe I shouldn't have sold my steel bike to buy this. Any thoughts would be most welcome.

I have the exact same problem

I bought a 1980's Koga Miyata Full Pro frame and built it up as my daily commuter, with the intention of adding good tubeless ready wheels, Apidura bags, Dynamo lights  etc and use it for long Audax rides aswell as daily commuting

1480Km later, and I'm not liking it .... It fits perfect, but there is something lacking .... Maybe I'm comparing it too much to My Giant TCR, but it's got to go .... I will be listing it on Ebay soon

I'm not sure what I will get next, but am leaning towards a used Scott Addict or Trek Madone .... add some lightweight tubeless ready wheels, dynamo hub/lights and some Apidura bags and hopefully, I will be happy

[Brucey]

very simply, I don't think that it is reasonable to expect a bike that has a hub dynamo, heavy tyres and a load of other touring/commuting accoutrements to feel like a road-racing bike to ride.  It isn't one; so why should it feel the same?

You are blaming the whole bike, or the frame, it appears, without trying to find out what is really causing the sensation you don't like. In no particular order it could be

- the riding position
- a different saddle
- the wheelset
- the tyres
- the gearing
- the steering geometry
- the weight distribution
- other (daft) things

In the last category I'd put things like headset adjustment; a bad headset can make a good bike feel like a right POS to ride.

If I were in your shoes I'd try playing swapsies with parts and seeing how I got on.  It is imperative that you measure your riding position very carefully and that you set up the same (and/or in a well-recorded fashion at least) each time you make any change.

The easiest thing to try is probably to run with a different wheelset in the bike, and/or different tyres. Just for a laugh you could put the wheelset in another bike (that you like) and see if you still like it or not.

cheers

[BobScarle]

There are some really interesting answers here, and I thank you all for taking the time to respond. I hadn't realised that a good few others are in a similar situation.

I had Gartorskins on as I thought that these were a good combination of low rolling resistance and puncture protection. Looking at the table Samuel D linked to, I see they are way down. I have a pair of Vitoria Rubino Control tyres which are better. However, I do have a pair of GP 4000's on the Canyon so I may just take them off to try and see what the difference is.

Continental   Gatorskin                      19.3 W
Vittoria              Rubino Pro Control        16.9 W
Continental        Grand Prix 4000S II       12.2 W

Wheels are the next thing if the tyres do not make an appreciable improvement. I have a pair of Campag Zonda's on the bike that's on the turbo (I know, too good, it's another story). They could come off for an experiment. Don't think I would use them for audax or touring as they do not look to be strong enough (I could be wrong). I have also been looking at lighter rims and 28 / 32 spokes instead of 36 built up with a dynamo. Maybe that's the way to go if the Zonda's are a revelation.

My other option, of course, is to sell the bike and get something else. Sorry Mattc, the lack of money was the clincher. I have been looking at steel frames and that remains an option either as a replacement frame or as a new bike. But lets try tyres and wheels first.

[BobScarle]

very simply, I don't think that it is reasonable to expect a bike that has a hub dynamo, heavy tyres and a load of other touring/commuting accoutrements to feel like a road-racing bike to ride.  It isn't one; so why should it feel the same?

I certainly do not expect it to feel like a racing bike. I have a lightweight Canyon for that. I expect bikes to feel different but what I am missing is the fun. My touring bike was fun to ride within the constraints of its' use. That bike is long gone now. I don't think it unreasonable to expect to enjoy all the bikes I ride, accepting of course that they will be different.

[Hot Flatus]

It's always a pisser when a bike disappoints, but Yes, put on your best wheels and tyres first.

Fit is also crucial.

Failing all of those, it does rather look like the bike is intended as a plodder so you really shouldn't compare to a Canyon.

Finally, it is what it is. A Chinese gas-pipe Ti frame from a company without the turnover to be able to offer a higher quality frame (with smaller margin) for the money you pay.

[dim]

There are some really interesting answers here, and I thank you all for taking the time to respond. I hadn't realised that a good few others are in a similar situation.

I had Gartorskins on as I thought that these were a good combination of low rolling resistance and puncture protection. Looking at the table Samuel D linked to, I see they are way down. I have a pair of Vitoria Rubino Control tyres which are better. However, I do have a pair of GP 4000's on the Canyon so I may just take them off to try and see what the difference is.

Continental   Gatorskin                      19.3 W
Vittoria              Rubino Pro Control        16.9 W
Continental        Grand Prix 4000S II       12.2 W

Wheels are the next thing if the tyres do not make an appreciable improvement. I have a pair of Campag Zonda's on the bike that's on the turbo (I know, too good, it's another story). They could come off for an experiment. Don't think I would use them for audax or touring as they do not look to be strong enough (I could be wrong). I have also been looking at lighter rims and 28 / 32 spokes instead of 36 built up with a dynamo. Maybe that's the way to go if the Zonda's are a revelation.

My other option, of course, is to sell the bike and get something else. Sorry Mattc, the lack of money was the clincher. I have been looking at steel frames and that remains an option either as a replacement frame or as a new bike. But lets try tyres and wheels first.

If you are going to try different tyres to see if it makes an improvement, dont buy crap .... get Specialized Turbo Cotton .... (very fast tyres and very durable, but cost £50 a piece... the best clincher tyres that I have used so far)

if that does not work for you, remove the tyres and sell the bike (keep the Turbo Cottons for your next bike)

Conti GP 4000SII don't even come close to the Turbo Cottons:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynD0Rwc3Ius

[Brucey]

trying the Contis you already have is almost a no-brainer.

I know what you mean about the ride feel of different bikes; all can be improved but certain ones just will never feel as nice as others.  My feeling is that a common fault is that certain framesets are just too stiff, and that they only work (feel responsive) if you are heavy and/or strong enough. 

Some (quite heavy) bikes can feel nice to ride if there are nice tyres, the frame isn't too stiff and there is not too much trail in the steering.

cheers

[Ben T]

Check the brakes aren't locked on. Ride with a tailwind, getting a train if necessary, or at least be cogniscant of whether you have got a headwind.

[Ham]

Is it you? Given that you are a seasoned rider with experience of many different bikes, that has to be no. There's likely a lot you can do with it, as others have said, but believe what you think, you are the best judge.

This likely isn't the most sensitive comment but I have the exact opposite. I've just built up my Ti CdF frame into a commuter. My stainless CdF is still a magic carpet comfort ride, but riding the Ti bike is an absolute blast. The more I ride it the more fun it is; I really didn't expect that.

I've been wondering why that is, for two bikes that are essentially very similar. My answer is: wheels - factory wheels shod with 35 in the Stainless case, 28 hand built in the Ti.

It really has to be worth paying with the wheels and tyres.