Author Topic: Drop-bar touring bike shifters quandary - Sora STI vs Dura Ace Bar Ends vs ???  (Read 20195 times)

Hi - I have a Hewitt Cheviot SE drop-bar touring bike that's about 9 years old (and been used almost every day), it has the original 3x9 Shimano XT front and rear mechs (currently on a 22/32/42 SLX crankset and 11-32 XT cassette), which are still more or less going strong (though I think the rear mech is starting to show its age, so may have to be replaced soon), but it also has the original 2006 Campag Veloce 10-speed shifters (yes, it's a "Shimergo" setup), which really are on their last legs, partly through wear, partly through a number of accidents over the years. The springs in the shifters were replaced in both in 2014 (by Paul Hewitt), after one of them broke, and they were given an overall service, which has seen them soldier on, but since then have had more accidents, which have bent the levers a bit, and this week another spring broke, which has left one of them more or less useless.

To be honest, the Shimergo setup has never been perfect, whilst I love the ratchet shifting on the front mech (which avoids many of the chain-rub problems triples can have and let me use a MTB mech with STIs), as well as the neat under-bar cable routing and the ergonomics of the levers, the indexing of the rear mech is nearly always a little off, and requires frequent adjustment, which been somewhat annoying. I guess these days using a Jetek Shiftmate http://www.jtekengineering.com/shiftmate/ or similar might help, but I think I'd rather have something that just worked properly out of the box now, and is reliable, unless there is another combo that I really should try?

AFAIK, if I want to keep a 9-speed triple setup (which I think I do) which is suitable for touring, then my only other options seem to be switching to bar end (or down-tube) shifters, such as the Dura-Ace 770, or else to go the Sora 9-speed STI route - I think both would allow me to keep my current rear XT mech (though am not 100% sure if the latest Sora st-r3030 shifters are compatible), though only bar end shifters would be compatible with my XT front mech - so if using Sora shifters, would either need to replace the front mech with a Sora r3030 triple (which I think will work with a Shimano Alivio Crankset FC-T4060 48/36/26, as this is what the Ridgeback Panorama uses https://www.ridgeback.co.uk/bikes/touring/world/panorama), or use a Sora shifter for the rear mech and a bar end/down tuber shifter for the front mech (am not totally averse to the idea, though would probably mean a pointless Sora shifter lever to distract me on the left lever).

Or I could do something more radical and switch to a double setup and 11-speed rear mech, which might give some more interesting options? Or even a 22/40t double crank with a 9-speed 11-32t cassette. as recommended here: http://www.eventsgalore.net/jwinkle/gearing4touring.html

I know that the bar end/down tube shifter option is probably the most sensible and is fairly bomb-proof, but I do use my Cheviot as a daily commuter bike too and for the odd club ride, and think I might miss the handy STI shifting on the rear.

BTW with the 22/32/42 and 11-32 setup I currently have, I find the lowest gear is about right for me, though at times even with this have wanted to swap back to a 11-34 cassette (not so nice in the mid-range for commuting, though) on very steep hills with luggage! I do spin out quite often in the 42T  / 11T top gear down hill, though, so a 44T or larger front chain ring would be better really, though I think I can swap out the 42T ring on my SLX crankset for a larger one.

So, what should I do? Any recommendations or gotchas to be aware of?
 
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

BTW rear hub is a Hope RS4 (http://www.hopetech.com/product/rs4-road-rear-hub/ ), which I think means only Shimano for the cassette, if that changes anything... BB is a Hope Hollowtech II-compatible one.
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

the combination of campag 10s shifters and shimano 9s rear mech works perfectly.... on 3x8 systems.... :o 

I am amazed that you have stuck with it working on 3x9 for that long...

If the RH shifter has 11s internals in it then it should work with shimano 9s rear mech, otherwise it would need a 'hubbub' style cable mount adaptation to work with 9s, using the 10s internals. Like this;

 

If you have forgotten that the cable mount is not as standard, then this will cause the shifting to go to pot.

Regarding future choices all shimano 9s kit uses the same shift ratio for the rear mech; yup, new, old, road, MTB, everything.  However you cannot do a hubbub style cable mount on every shimano 9s RD, so if you buy a current 9s RD, you are better off using shimano 9s shifters (such as the Dura Ace ones) to go with it.

cheers


Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
I can't see why you couldn't copy the Ridgeback setup and keep your current gearing - if it works for them it can work for you. You can Shimergo all you want, I'm a fan of stuff that works out of the box, far less stressful than buggering about.

Bar ends or down tube shifters, the LH is friction so easy trimming and no graunchy noises so will work happily with an mtb front mech and you can keep your XT on the back.

Possible fly in the oinkment is the BB for that chainset. Octalink has tiny bearings, not great for longevity and it's higher geared, Stronglight? If it's longevity you're after stick with 9 speed. Good quality stuff is still available and budget stuff too. 10/11 speed is significantly dearer and, if neglected, will deteriorate quickly.

HTH
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Sora shifters and get a new front mech to match them.  Front mechs are not expensive (probably cheaper than a bar end shifter!) and it'll give you an STI system that works out of the box.

the combination of campag 10s shifters and shimano 9s rear mech works perfectly.... on 3x8 systems.... :o 

I am amazed that you have stuck with it working on 3x9 for that long...

If the RH shifter has 11s internals in it then it should work with shimano 9s rear mech, otherwise it would need a 'hubbub' style cable mount adaptation to work with 9s, using the 10s internals. Like this;

 

If you have forgotten that the cable mount is not as standard, then this will cause the shifting to go to pot.

It's definitely a 10s shifter, Have tried it the Hubbub way and as standard, but didn't seem to make much difference either way, though I've never been sure if I've been doing it quite right with the hubbub style, as not sure I've fully understood the photos. Anyway, I think I'm done with the Shimergo route now, it's a hassle and spares are tricky.

Regarding future choices all shimano 9s kit uses the same shift ratio for the rear mech; yup, new, old, road, MTB, everything.  However you cannot do a hubbub style cable mount on every shimano 9s RD, so if you buy a current 9s RD, you are better off using shimano 9s shifters (such as the Dura Ace ones) to go with it.

Okay. What's the best modern 9 speed Shimano rear derailleur that works up to at least a 11-32 (or even an 11-34) cassette, as I think mine is pretty much worn out - Shimano XT M771 medium cage?
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Sora shifters and get a new front mech to match them.  Front mechs are not expensive (probably cheaper than a bar end shifter!) and it'll give you an STI system that works out of the box.

Presumably, though, would need not just a new front mech, but also a crankset, as don't think my 22/32/42 SLX one would work with the Sora front mech? Also the standard Sora crankset is way too high at 30/39/50, though it sounds like the Alivio Crankset FC-T4060 48/36/26 would work, though that's still a bit high IMHO - would certainly need an 11-34 on the back rather than an 11-32 anyway! Or is there a lower geared chainset that would be compatible with the Sora front mech?

BTW would prefer to be able to keep my Hope BB, it's proved more reliable than the Shimano ones I've had previously
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Alivio M4000 surely?

You could always do Shimergo properly and go down to 8 speed with a new pair of Campag 10s shifters.  Not that I'm saying it's the best route, but it would at least give you gears that worked together, unlike your current setup!

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
BTW rear hub is a Hope RS4 (http://www.hopetech.com/product/rs4-road-rear-hub/ ), which I think means only Shimano for the cassette, if that changes anything... BB is a Hope Hollowtech II-compatible one.
It is possible to replace the freehub for a Campag compatible version, though probably not cheap. https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Hope-RS4-2-Pawl-Freehub-Assembly_118415.htm

Or an Ambrosio Shimano fit cassette, with Campag spacing.

IMHO the best 9s RD (on sale currently) for a touring cassette terminating in 34 or 36 T is

RD-M772-SGS.



This is one that is not amenable to a hubbub-style cable mount. It also does not have a barrel adjuster, so you would need one of those inline or on a lever boss or something.

This RD will also work with 7s, 8s, 10s (road) shifters (apart from ST-4700)  on systems with the appropriate number of sprockets.

[edit BTW the standard cable mount on other (non shadow) 9s mechs such as M750, M751, M771 etc uses the same clamping plate as depicted in the earlier post but turned CW 90 degrees. The effect is to move the cable mount point a little closer to the pinch bolt, and the mech moves a little further per click. ]

cheers

Alivio M4000 surely?

Are you answering my Sora FD-compatible chainset questions? If so, then it looks like for the Alivio M4000 chainset there is a 48-36-26T option (possibly a bit too high) and a 40-30-22T option (too low!)

Or will a Sora FD work with my current 22/32/42 (or 44) chainset?

You could always do Shimergo properly and go down to 8 speed with a new pair of Campag 10s shifters.  Not that I'm saying it's the best route, but it would at least give you gears that worked together, unlike your current setup!

No, I'm done with Shimergo, also want at least 9 gears on the back
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Samuel D

When deciding your course of action, be aware that the Shimano Dura-Ace SL-BS77 9-speed bar-end shifters are not very Dura. The critical Amazon US reviews seem to have the most information about this design flaw. (The positive reviews everywhere are written a week after buying the part.)

On the other hand, the 9-speed down-tube shifters are highly reliable. I like down-tube shifting for lots of reasons but accept not everyone will. If you try it, though, persist until you develop muscle memory for where the shifters are. Thereafter shifting will be much quicker and easier than it seemed at the start.



EDIT: fixed link.

IMHO the best 9s RD (on sale currently) for a touring cassette terminating in 34 or 36 T is

RD-M772-SGS.



This is one that is not amenable to a hubbub-style cable mount. It also does not have a barrel adjuster, so you would need one of those inline or on a lever boss or something.

Thanks. I have barrel adjusters on the downtube lever bosses, so that shouldn't be an issue

As far as I can tell the specs for the M772-SGS mech say:

Max. Cog: 34T
Min. Cog: 11T
Max. Front Difference: 22T (so this should work with a 22/32/44 triple, right?)

For the rear either 11-32T or 11-34T is fine for me with a 22T small cog up front
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

I think it will work fine with your choice of sprockets and chainwheels. Set it up so that you can run big-big and the worst case is that it runs a bit slack in small-small if the total capacity is not quite enough.

Total capacity is rated as 45T so you need 23T for an 11-34T cassette leaving 22T for the front.

Officially 34T is the biggest but unofficially I have yet to meet anyone who couldn't run 36T if they wanted to with this mech.

cheers


When deciding your course of action, be aware that the Shimano Dura-Ace SL-BS77 9-speed bar-end shifters are not very Dura. The critical Amazon US reviews seem to have the most information about this design flaw. (The positive reviews everywhere are written a week after buying the part.)

Are the Shimano SL-BS77 basically the same as the Dura-Ace 7700 bar end shifters? It was the latter that had been suggested to me, not the SL-BS77 model, though they look pretty much identical to me. The problems of longevity reported sound a bit worrying, especially considering my Campag brifters lasted 5 years before they needed *any* attention... Are they likely to be even less reliable than Shimano Sora STI shifters?

Quote
On the other hand, the 9-speed down-tube shifters are highly reliable. I like down-tube shifting for lots of reasons but accept not everyone will. If you try it, though, persist until you develop muscle memory for where the shifters are. Thereafter shifting will be much quicker and easier than it seemed at the start.

Hmmm... not sure - I don't think I would mind down-tube shifting for the front derailleur (if going the route of using a Sora STI shifter for the rear), but am not sure I would get on with downtube shifters for the rear derailleur for my commute -  I was already concerned about the shifting with bar end shifters, let alone down-tube! Also I have quite short arms, so it's quite a reach-down to get at the downtube.

Other than reliability, what do you see as the advantages of down-tube shifters?
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

BTW if I do go the bar end shifters route, can anyone recommend me a good set of brake levers that would work nicely with Tektro -720 calliper brakes?
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

When deciding your course of action, be aware that the Shimano Dura-Ace SL-BS77 9-speed bar-end shifters are not very Dura. The critical Amazon US reviews seem to have the most information about this design flaw. (The positive reviews everywhere are written a week after buying the part.)

On the other hand, the 9-speed down-tube shifters are highly reliable....

what is weird is that (as I understand it) the guts of both levers are basically the same.    What I do know is that you cannot install the bar end levers without removing the lever and its bezel from the mount. The bezel ( a chrome plated zinc die casting) looks as if it will fit several different ways on the lever mount but in reality it will only fit on one way.

If you fit it wrongly, after a period of time the bezel will break and the lever will fail to work at all. At least some of the claimed 'design flaws' are undoubtedly due to bad installation. If the bezel fails and there is no other damage then a new bezel can be bought for a few quid. Talk of there being 'no spares available' is not quite correct.

I would like to get my hands of a set of failed levers to see if there is more to it than this (there might be). But so far no-one has come up with any for me to look at.

  It is possible that if the bezel is installed incorrectly, it causes the detent washer in the lever to be loaded unevenly, and for it to crack and fail. This might happen even if it is installed in error and then subsequently installed correctly; tightening the screw down just once with the bezel in the wrong place might be enough to seal its fate.

Reports here

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/surlylht/NxtWSrOvj_0/FeU_wK4ynrwJ;context-place=searchin/surlylht/sl-bs77%7Csort:date

strongly suggest that folk who have problems will likely have problems with multiple sets of the levers, whereas others have no problems over many thousands of miles. This is strongly suggestive of the user doing something different (daft), probably  during installation.

Because of the way the parts fit to one another, I don't think the DT levers are prone to the same kind of installation errors.

cheers



When deciding your course of action, be aware that the Shimano Dura-Ace SL-BS77 9-speed bar-end shifters are not very Dura. The critical Amazon US reviews seem to have the most information about this design flaw. (The positive reviews everywhere are written a week after buying the part.)

On the other hand, the 9-speed down-tube shifters are highly reliable....

what is weird is that (as I understand it) the guts of both levers are basically the same.    What I do know is that you cannot install the bar end levers without removing the lever and its bezel from the mount. The bezel ( a chrome plated zinc die casting) looks as if it will fit several different ways on the lever mount but in reality it will only fit on one way.

If you fit it wrongly, after a period of time the bezel will break and the lever will fail to work at all. At least some of the claimed 'design flaws' are undoubtedly due to bad installation. If the bezel fails and there is no other damage then a new bezel can be bought for a few quid. Talk of there being 'no spares available' is not quite correct.

I would like to get my hands of a set of failed levers to see if there is more to it than this (there might be). But so far no-one has come up with any for me to look at.

  It is possible that if the bezel is installed incorrectly, it causes the detent washer in the lever to be loaded unevenly, and for it to crack and fail. This might happen even if it is installed in error and then subsequently installed correctly; tightening the screw down just once with the bezel in the wrong place might be enough to seal its fate.

Reports here

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/surlylht/NxtWSrOvj_0/FeU_wK4ynrwJ;context-place=searchin/surlylht/sl-bs77%7Csort:date

strongly suggest that folk who have problems will likely have problems with multiple sets of the levers, whereas others have no problems over many thousands of miles. This is strongly suggestive of the user doing something different (daft), probably  during installation.

Because of the way the parts fit to one another, I don't think the DT levers are prone to the same kind of installation errors.

cheers

Interesting! I would probably get my LBS (Warlands in Oxford, who have tons of experience with touring bike setups) to install any new shifters, so hopefully installation would not be a problem
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

BTW if I do go the bar end shifters route, can anyone recommend me a good set of brake levers that would work nicely with Tektro -720 calliper brakes?

You have Tektro CR720 brakes? These are cantilevers not calipers.   Shimano BL-R400 offer reasonable braking with these cantis, (and current STIs definitely do not) but fundamentally this is a CX brake with a relatively low MA, not a brake that is ideally suited to a loaded touring bike.  If you find the braking still isn't good enough (and you well might) then a different canti such as BR-CX70 (which unlike CR720 does respond to changes in straddle height, so can be adjusted for MA) can offer improved braking power.

cheers

BTW if I do go the bar end shifters route, can anyone recommend me a good set of brake levers that would work nicely with Tektro -720 calliper brakes?

You have Tektro CR720 brakes? These are cantilevers not calipers.   Shimano BL-R400 offer reasonable braking with these cantis, (and current STIs definitely do not) but fundamentally this is a CX brake with a relatively low MA, not a brake that is ideally suited to a loaded touring bike.  If you find the braking still isn't good enough (and you well might) then a different canti such as BR-CX70 (which unlike CR720 does respond to changes in straddle height, so can be adjusted for MA) can offer improved braking power.

Sorry, yes I meant cantilever brakes... What's "MA"? Hewitt still put the TK-720s on their Hewitt Cheviot SE tourer models even now, though I'm open to suggestions for alternatives. I haven't had too much problem the the TK-720s, apart from the pivots getting stuck quite often in recent years, even after lubing.
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

mechanical advantage

I've used something very similar to the CR720. Changing the straddle wire angle and relative pivot positions does change the MA. You do have to adjust both however, and it is fiddly.

<i>Marmite slave</i>

BTW if I do go the bar end shifters route, can anyone recommend me a good set of brake levers that would work nicely with Tektro -720 calliper brakes?

You have Tektro CR720 brakes? These are cantilevers not calipers.   Shimano BL-R400 offer reasonable braking with these cantis, (and current STIs definitely do not) but fundamentally this is a CX brake with a relatively low MA, not a brake that is ideally suited to a loaded touring bike.  If you find the braking still isn't good enough (and you well might) then a different canti such as BR-CX70 (which unlike CR720 does respond to changes in straddle height, so can be adjusted for MA) can offer improved braking power.


Hmmm... the CX70 seems to be discontinued, what other cantis are worth considering for a touring setup?
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
V-brakes with matching levers.
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Looks like the CX50 is still available, which is AFAICS 105-level rather than Ultegra.

V-brakes with matching levers.
These will be more powerful than 'trad' cantis, but with the disadvantages that it is harder to get fat tyres out and modulation isn't as good.
<i>Marmite slave</i>