AVRO Vulcan XH558

[Pingu]

I knew it was a complex  operation, although I hadn't quite grasped how complicated the refueling was - with tankers refuelling tankers mid-air, just so the tankers had the range to refuel the Vulcan...

That was explained on School of Hard Sums on Dave the other night. It was pretty complicated 

[TimC]

I just saw a documentary on telly about the bombing of Stanley airport. I knew it was a complex  operation, although I hadn't quite grasped how complicated the refueling was - with tankers refuelling tankers mid-air, just so the tankers had the range to refuel the Vulcan...

But the thing that really gobsmacked me was that apparently the RAF didn't have a chart of the South Atlantic. The navigator used one of the North Atlantic, turned it upside down and re-labeled the Azores...

That wasn't a big deal Arch, really. All we needed was a graticule that accurately reflected geography in that area; it wasn't about having a map that said 'this way to the FI; turn round for the UK'. We knew that; it was simply a matter of having something to plot on so we had a record of where we thought we were. Turning a northern hemisphere map upside down did the trick. We also had intertial reference systems which were pretty damn good, and some of us had self-sourced GPS gadgets too. Embarrassed the Navy no end when we told them how far off track they were...

[Ewan Houzami]

I wanted to add something by saying how much I enjoyed visiting the RAF museum at Hendon* last week and watching the dystopian cold-war video of big and noisy bombers taking off, that they've got running in the Vulcan's bomb-bay (Vulcans look a lot bigger on the telly, don't they?), but after the mutual respect about each others' head-of-metallurgy dads, I've come over with a wave of inferiority and can't really add much to the discussion. Save for the fact that with actually flying one of the f*ckers over the S Atlantic with an upside-down map during the Falklands War, I hereby declare TimC the winner of this thread.

*God. That Buccaneer in Gulf I rig-up's a sexy looking thing.

PS What's a graticule?

[L CC]

Chris got really quite excited when we saw a big noisy black dot a Vulcan fly past yesterday. I just don't get it.

[rogerzilla]

I just saw a documentary on telly about the bombing of Stanley airport. I knew it was a complex  operation, although I hadn't quite grasped how complicated the refueling was - with tankers refuelling tankers mid-air, just so the tankers had the range to refuel the Vulcan...

But the thing that really gobsmacked me was that apparently the RAF didn't have a chart of the South Atlantic. The navigator used one of the North Atlantic, turned it upside down and re-labeled the Azores...

The bombs were dropped from an incredible height too - it's amazing that they got that one on target.  The apprach run was low but the bombs were dropped from several thousand feet, IIRC.

[Jaded]

Yes, they flew low to gauge position, then 5,000ft to drop the bombs a bit safer.

[tonyh]

Chris got really quite excited when we saw a big noisy black dot a Vulcan fly past yesterday. I just don't get it.

And I got really quite excited when it flew over here, lowish but almost in damp clouds, huge noise, a couple of years ago. I yelled at it. Before attempting (and failing) to exit "small boy" mode. In fact I'm really quite excited just describing it again. You are very wise to be free of this sort of thing!

[TimC]

I wanted to add something by saying how much I enjoyed visiting the RAF museum at Hendon* last week and watching the dystopian cold-war video of big and noisy bombers taking off, that they've got running in the Vulcan's bomb-bay (Vulcans look a lot bigger on the telly, don't they?), but after the mutual respect about each others' head-of-metallurgy dads, I've come over with a wave of inferiority and can't really add much to the discussion. Save for the fact that with actually flying one of the f*ckers over the S Atlantic with an upside-down map during the Falklands War, I hereby declare TimC the winner of this thread.

*God. That Buccaneer in Gulf I rig-up's a sexy looking thing.

PS What's a graticule?

I was driving Hercules, not Vulcans, but the nav techniques were the same. So I'll have to decline your thread-winner award!

[Ewan Houzami]

Yes, they flew low to gauge position, then 5,000ft to drop the bombs a bit safer.

I wonder why they didn't use those evil-looking Hunting Engineering devices that are designed to knock out a runway?

I was driving Hercules, not Vulcans, but the nav techniques were the same. So I'll have to decline your thread-winner award!

War and Vulcans apart, it still sounds incredibly exciting.

[jogler]

Embarrassed the Navy no end when we told them how far off track they were...

RAF 1 : 0 Navy

result

[L CC]

A fuzzy black dot between Thorne and Selby.

Maybe you had to be there? (Or have a much better camera, and not be snapping from a moving bicycle.)

[jogler]

A fuzzy black dot between Thorne and Selby.

Maybe you had to be there? (Or have a much better camera, and not be snapping from a moving bicycle.)

Not a bad pic considering that you were probably bombing along ont tandem

[TimC]

Yes, they flew low to gauge position, then 5,000ft to drop the bombs a bit safer.

I wonder why they didn't use those evil-looking Hunting Engineering devices that are designed to knock out a runway?

I was driving Hercules, not Vulcans, but the nav techniques were the same. So I'll have to decline your thread-winner award!

War and Vulcans apart, it still sounds incredibly exciting.

The JP233 wasn't in service in 1982, and it wasn't designed as a bomb-bay weapon, so the Vulcan couldn't carry it. As a conventional bomber, the Vulcan was barely more advanced than the Lancaster - it even used the same targeting radar the Lanc had in the latter years of WW2. Hence the need to bomb from 10000ft (not 5000), in a 'stick' of bombs at an angle to the runway. This made it more likely to get a hit, and that any near misses could undermine a runway's foundations. That worked very well at Stanley, and we had trouble with that bit of runway for some years afterwards!

[rogerzilla]

Apparently the Argies filled the crater within a day,to a good enough standard for a Hercules.  Mind you, they can land on fairly rough airstrips.

[Arch]

A fuzzy black dot between Thorne and Selby.

Maybe you had to be there? (Or have a much better camera, and not be snapping from a moving bicycle.)

I think you do have to be there. You don't just see a Vulcan, you feel it.

I've been looking at the shows it's due to do this year to see if there's one near where we're likely to be, and think we might have a day out in Rhyl at the end of the season. The good thing about airshows is you don't have to actually go in to see the best stuff.

[Torslanda]

Crucially, AIUI, the one bomb that hit the runway denied the Argentine Air Forces the use of Port Stanley's runway for fast jets.

This meant that the endurance of the AAF was drastically reduced due to having to fly every mission from the mainland. There was no routine air to air refuelling and A4s and Mirages only had enough fuel for one pass over San Carlos or wherever.

It might only have been 'one bomb' but it was actually all that was needed.
 
Still haven't seen her fly - not since 1991 at Barton - might have to make a special effort this year as it will be her last.

[TimC]

Apparently the Argies filled the crater within a day,to a good enough standard for a Hercules.  Mind you, they can land on fairly rough airstrips.

They did. The runway was 4100ft long, and the crater was about 500ft from the western end, so pretty much irrelevant to short-range C130 operations. But it put paid to any plans to base fighters there.

Edit: as Torslanda said above!

[Jaded]

Yes, they flew low to gauge position, then 5,000ft to drop the bombs a bit safer.

I wonder why they didn't use those evil-looking Hunting Engineering devices that are designed to knock out a runway?

I was driving Hercules, not Vulcans, but the nav techniques were the same. So I'll have to decline your thread-winner award!

War and Vulcans apart, it still sounds incredibly exciting.

The JP233 wasn't in service in 1982, and it wasn't designed as a bomb-bay weapon, so the Vulcan couldn't carry it. As a conventional bomber, the Vulcan was barely more advanced than the Lancaster - it even used the same targeting radar the Lanc had in the latter years of WW2. Hence the need to bomb from 10000ft (not 5000), in a 'stick' of bombs at an angle to the runway. This made it more likely to get a hit, and that any near misses could undermine a runway's foundations. That worked very well at Stanley, and we had trouble with that bit of runway for some years afterwards!

I was quoting the programme, with the 5,000. It did seem a bit low to me.

[pcolbeck]

As a conventional bomber, the Vulcan was barely more advanced than the Lancaster - it even used the same targeting radar the Lanc had in the latter years of WW2. Hence the need to bomb from 10000ft (not 5000), in a 'stick' of bombs at an angle to the runway. This made it more likely to get a hit, and that any near misses could undermine a runway's foundations. That worked very well at Stanley, and we had trouble with that bit of runway for some years afterwards!

Well I guess it was designed as a high altitude nuclear bomber. You don't really have to be very accurate with big A-bombs, anywhere in the general vicinity will do nicely.

[Jaded]

It was never going to fly to Russia, though, was it. Not if it needed 15 Victors to refule it. It was designed to fry the bits of Europe that had been overrun by the Red Hordes.

[pcolbeck]

No it could hit Russia. Moscow is 1500 miles from London by the shortest route and a Vulcan has a range of 2500 miles. It would have been a one way trip but as interviews with the cold war crews show they all knew that. Most figured that the bomber bases would have been nuked by the USSR anyway so they would have no family to come back to anyway so it didn't really matter.

[Jaded]

Ah, one way. Of course.

[hatler]

One way.

Bloody hell, scary times. My parents moved to SW London when my Pop got a job in London on the basis that the prevailing wind was from the SW, so any fallout would likely blow away from them when central London was bombed.

[Wombat]

I think I'd have opted to commute from Cornwall on that basis....

[Arch]

One way.

Bloody hell, scary times. My parents moved to SW London when my Pop got a job in London on the basis that the prevailing wind was from the SW, so any fallout would likely blow away from them when central London was bombed.

A friend of mine was active in CND in the 80s in the Cheltenham area. With GCHQ, it was considered quite a target. Apparently some folk reckoned they'd be fine, because they lived on the other side of Cleeve Hill, so the bomb wouldn't affect them.

As a kid, I went through a period of terror after our school took us to see a theatre production of When the Wind Blows. For a few nights I didn't sleep, and went cold everytime I heard a plane going over.

I heard a story that the advice given to Vulcan crews was to keep going after they dropped their load, and find nice Mongolian girls to settle down with (but I don't know if Mongolia was in their range).