E bikes - 'the next big thing'

[Cudzoziemiec]

Maybe.  Easy to do if there's some sort of payment system (just make it more expensive than domestic rate per kWh), but that adds massive complexity.

In developed countries with a near universal transport RFID token (i.e. OV ChipKaart), it's less problematic. But, I would question if schuko has the durability for this sort of usage cycle...

There's also the point that, if we're talking about a European standard, schuko is not one (or rather, is one of many). Perhaps first we need to somehow standardise on one domestic plug and socket design. I'm not expecting that to happen.

[quixoticgeek]

There's also the point that, if we're talking about a European standard, schuko is not one (or rather, is one of many). Perhaps first we need to somehow standardise on one domestic plug and socket design. I'm not expecting that to happen.

There are some connectors that are near universal in 27 of the Eu member states. For values of universal. They are:

- EN 50075 aka C5 aka Europlug. Rated to 2.5A, groundless plug, works in pin ground (it'd. French), edge ground (i.e. German) sockets, as well as Swiss, Italian, etc... it's the closest thing we have to a universal eu plug. Not the most mechanically robust, has a tendency to fall out in some sockets with poor tolerances. But it is universal in the 27.

-  EN 60309 16a aka IEC 60309 16a, aka 16a CEE aka "the plug you need on a campsite". Most familiar to people as that plug you need to use a campsite socket. IP44 rated (if installed properly). In high power situations, it is near universal in all 28 member states plus a lot more. It's big, it's bulky, but it can do 16a. Also comes in 32a, 63a, and 125a versions, as well as 3 phase. Whilst all are standard, the 16a is the most deployed.

The standards are there. They are used. Just not always correctly.

Now let's look at charging an e bike with these. Assuming a 440wh battery ( makes the maths easier). To charge that at 2.5a, assuming 80% efficiency, I think comes out at about 1 hour.

With the 16a CEE, assuming the same 80% efficiency, I think comes to about 7 minutes (someone please check my maths).

Interestingly, USB c provides 5A at 20v if you configure it properly. That's 100w. Or about 5.5 hours to recharge this example battery. Is it rated for the duty cycle of an average public charging post? Good question. Given a lot of bike batteries are 48v, charging 48v from a 20v source is not an obvious setup. But it could be there.

In short. There are some options here, but without some sort of guidance from a higher power (aka the eu). Nothings likely to happen. Worst case is we get an xkcd://927 type situation.

The wonderful thing about standards is there are so many to choose fron.

J

[ScumOfTheRoad]

> With the 16a CEE, assuming the same 80% efficiency, I think comes to about 7 minutes (someone please check my maths).

Errrr.. at that rate would the battery not overheat and maybe explode?
I really don't know anything about rapid charging of batteries. But I would be cautious of charging any battery too fast.

I would also use the phrase 'supercapacitor' - which you should eb able to charge very fast. But I have no idea if such things are out in the wild.

[Cudzoziemiec]

The wonderful thing about standards is there are so many to choose fron.

Or as you put it earlier:

The standards are there. They are used. Just not always correctly.

I think we're mostly talking about types C, E and F on this list. I've never been to Denmark or Italy so don't know if K and L are the norm there or just edge cases, but I've seen more than a few mismatches between those supposedly compatible types to say that in practice, it doesn't always work. Or at least, it can almost always be forced to fit, but not in a way that it should.

[quixoticgeek]

> With the 16a CEE, assuming the same 80% efficiency, I think comes to about 7 minutes (someone please check my maths).

Errrr.. at that rate would the battery not overheat and maybe explode?
I really don't know anything about rapid charging of batteries. But I would be cautious of charging any battery too fast.

I would also use the phrase 'supercapacitor' - which you should eb able to charge very fast. But I have no idea if such things are out in the wild.

Having been playing with super capacitors for another project recently, they look great. Very fast charging, great low temperature performance. But they are considerably more bulky than any lithium battery tech. And yes, charging at that speed is likely to blow up the battery. I never claimed it's a good idea.

The wonderful thing about standards is there are so many to choose fron.

Or as you put it earlier:

The standards are there. They are used. Just not always correctly.

I think we're mostly talking about types C, E and F on this list. I've never been to Denmark or Italy so don't know if K and L are the norm there or just edge cases, but I've seen more than a few mismatches between those supposedly compatible types to say that in practice, it doesn't always work. Or at least, it can almost always be forced to fit, but not in a way that it should.

Type c, europlug as I mentioned up list.

Type e, pin ground. Used in France and Belgium, plus others..

Type f, edge ground aka shuko, aka German et al

Continuing on, type j, a Europlug will work on the socket, but a type j plug won't fit in any other sockets.

Same with type k, l, and  n. I think.

So a europlug should fit all sockets used in the European union, Greater finoscandia, and a few other countries, with the exception of the UK which uses type g sockets.

J

[Cudzoziemiec]

But that Type C Europlug is unearthed so probably not too good for charging bikes. And, as you said, doesn't in practice fit too well in other supposedly compatible sockets (it's own type of sockets being theoretically extinct). If we're talking about charging batteries in a domestic environment, people are going to use whatever there is at home. For on-street chargers it's going to have to be a bit tougher.

[quixoticgeek]

But that Type C Europlug is unearthed so probably not too good for charging bikes. And, as you said, doesn't in practice fit too well in other supposedly compatible sockets (it's own type of sockets being theoretically extinct). If we're talking about charging batteries in a domestic environment, people are going to use whatever there is at home. For on-street chargers it's going to have to be a bit tougher.

Yeah, that's kinda the point I was trying to make, in a very round about way, very badly...

J

[ScumOfTheRoad]

I've never been to Denmark or Italy so don't know if K and L are the norm there or just edge cases,

Type K is the norm in Denmark. Yes, all the sockets have little smiley faces. However the Euro two-prong plug type C fits the sockets just fine.
the three pin Europlug, type J, I hae not tried. Should be one around the office if I can find one.
Older houses in Denmark have a light switch beside the door which will incorporate one or two type C sockets, I guess intended for low current draw.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Older houses in Denmark have a light switch beside the door which will incorporate one or two type C sockets, I guess intended for low current draw.

Interesting. I've read somewhere or other (it might have been some really reliable source like Wikipedia... ) that in Italy it used to be customary to screw electrical items into the light bulb sockets, because current for lighting was charged at a lower rate than for other uses (till the late '70s I think). All just anecdotes of the wonderful multifarious ways in which electricity gets used around the world and all completely impractical for e-bikes!

[Kim]

IEC C13/14 connectors.  You know it makes sense.

[jsabine]

So a europlug should fit all sockets used in the European union, Greater finoscandia, and a few other countries, with the exception of the UK which uses type g sockets.

Ireland also uses Type G/BS1363 sockets and plugs.

[quixoticgeek]

Ireland also uses Type G/BS1363 sockets and plugs.

Ah yes, my apologies for forgetting. I always think of Ireland as an EU state using an EU type socket of some form. I forget they use UK sockets. My bad.

J

[T42]

El Prez has been running cycling hols for the FFCT the last couple of years. Stand M.O. has been to fly there and rent bikes. Now that he's electrified he looked into rental prices in <forget where> and was told 850€/week. FFCT will not cover the cost. El P. is not 'appy.