Author Topic: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six  (Read 2481 times)

Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« on: 26 September, 2018, 04:24:22 pm »
Picture the scene. Campag 10sp triple chainset, but modded. (DIY super-compact - outer ring removed and single chainring bolts fitted.) Campag (non QS) Daytona triple front clanger with limit screws set so no overshift onto phantom big ring. Veloce 'escape' 10sp levers (from the good ol' days when one lever worked with double and triple systems). Rear Xenon 10sp mech. 

All working perfectly but the rh shifter has done the normal thing, i.e., it now dumps the entire cassette with the thumb lever when it should just move one gear at a time. Then I spy a nice set of Mark III 10sp levers on here (Veloce Ultrashift - so presumably 2009/10) although it slips my mind that these new-fangled versions are double/triple specific but purchase anyway. After much wailing, gnashing of teeth and breaking of tools, succeed in fitting to handlebars and cabling up. Rear indexing absolutely spot on. However...

The front mech/shifter combo is no longer man enough to throw the derailleur from small ring to middle, however much I play around with the limit screws. Might a different front one (QS or post 2010 Veloce/Centaur) fix things?

Plans B, C, and D all involve calling it quits and either attempting to repair the original rh lever, sourcing a working replacement, or transferring my 10sp Record Ergos over from my posh bike and beginning the painfully expensive process of upgrading that.

'Something....something.... Something about racing bicycles, but really a profound metaphor about life itself.'  Tim Krabbé. Possibly

Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #1 on: 26 September, 2018, 04:39:04 pm »
Is the left hand shifter QS or not? If it's QS, then there is a Campagnolo adaptor plate that you can attach to a non-QS front mech to make it work better with a QS shifter. I can probably dig out the part number later.
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #2 on: 26 September, 2018, 04:44:25 pm »
The original lever is non QS, and the one I'm replacing it with is Ultrashift.

Edit: Is it the FD-CE011 (for QS/Escape shifters and ultrashift front mechs)? The workaround I'm attempting is effectively the reverse of that!

*ponders* Maybe I could mount it back to front  ;D
'Something....something.... Something about racing bicycles, but really a profound metaphor about life itself.'  Tim Krabbé. Possibly

Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #3 on: 26 September, 2018, 05:47:42 pm »
so -if I read it right- you want more mech throw for any given cable pull? 

One way of getting this might well be to file a small notch the other side of the pinch bolt, so that the distance from the nearest mech pivot to the cable is reduced.

Another method is to install a tab washer beneath the pinch bolt, routing the cable around the tab so that the cable exits the mech in a similar place to the first suggestion.  It may be possible to modify a clamp plate from an old shimano RD to achieve this.

BTW if the change is made then you will almost certainly find that the effort required is somewhat greater than before; the combination you used previously may have required less effort and a longer throw than normal.

cheers

Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #4 on: 26 September, 2018, 05:57:12 pm »
The original lever is non QS, and the one I'm replacing it with is Ultrashift.

Edit: Is it the FD-CE011 (for QS/Escape shifters and ultrashift front mechs)? The workaround I'm attempting is effectively the reverse of that!

*ponders* Maybe I could mount it back to front  ;D

Sorry, yes, that's the one I was thinking of: https://glorycycles.com/campagnolo-front-derailleur-cable-plate-for-qs-escape-shifters-w-2009-ultra-shift/

I thought that all the Ultrashift shifters gave the same cable pull as the non-QS ones, though, so don't understand why you'd need an adapter with a non-QS FD - I'm confused now!
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #5 on: 26 September, 2018, 06:43:26 pm »
so -if I read it right- you want more mech throw for any given cable pull? 

Yep. That's it. As you say, it looks as though one way of doing this is by reducing pivot to clamp distance. Decrease velocity ratio and increase mechanical advantage or something. (What makes things even more fun is that it's all happening on a 'cross frame with top-tube derailleur cable routing and a bottom-pull derailleur pulley on the seat tube, although the physics fundamentals are the same)

I thought that all the Ultrashift shifters gave the same cable pull as the non-QS ones, though, so don't understand why you'd need an adapter with a non-QS FD - I'm confused now!

You're not alone! (Perhaps my old lever is QuickShift although there's no QS marking above the lever) Looks like I've got a scintillating evening ahead, looking into Campag pull ratios and how they've changed over the years.

The other thing would of course be to try out a 'correct' Ultrashift double front mech - but with the risk being that there'll be chain rub on the inner cage plate (in big sprocket, small ring) even when the limit screw is all the way out (the small chainring on a triple being nearer to the b/b than on a double by a few mm).
'Something....something.... Something about racing bicycles, but really a profound metaphor about life itself.'  Tim Krabbé. Possibly

Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #6 on: 26 September, 2018, 06:52:24 pm »
another potential complication is that when a pulley is used on a frame with top pull routing, the cable rarely approaches the FD at the exact same angle as it would when there is conventional underbracket cable routing. This alters the FD shift ratio. So does the fact that you have a triple rather than a double, slightly.

These things could add up to make a problem or cancel one another.   I think the former is likely if the cable makes a 'U' round the pulley and the pulley is centred on the seat tube. Routing so that the cable runs to the FD from the left side of the pulley (i.e. so that it crosses over itself en route) and/or positioning the pulley to the left of centre may allow the two things to more closely cancel out.

If you get to the bottom of what works with what, do say. My 'mental map of bike bits' has small fragments of useful information in it, mostly appended with question marks, below a big sign that says 'here be monsters'..... ;)

BTW the RH shifter blow-ups are inevitable (look inside and it is a really pathetic arrangement if it is the one I'm thinking of) but may well be aided and abetted by some RDs, which have fiercer springs than those that are intended to work with certain shifters. There is also talk that the wearing part in some shifters wears faster if it sees the wrong lube; it can be plastic and softens with some oils. Even with the right parts and no foreign lube the things still wear out too quickly though.....  In some cases if you can arrange a new 'stopper' on the escapement mechanism, you may be cure the shifter. Unfortunately   Campag chose to save 0.01p by riveting the thing in there instead of making it detachable, so repair is not easy.

cheers


Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #7 on: 26 September, 2018, 07:57:23 pm »
The fd cable has already been routed so that it goes around the pulley and crosses over itself (I did that in the original set-up as that replicates 'proper' under b/b routing and fd clamp entry more accurately). It's all quite well designed down there and there's a millimetre of clearance between the two cable paths where they cross. (I did think of uploading photos, but frankly.....ICBA)

Although it's a head scratcher and I do enjoy a challenge, it's a pity I can't get it working as I was looking forward to giving that bike a proper good thrashing around the lanes tomorrow. Still, thanks for your always invaluable input Brucey (and Oxford_G).

Will update when (hopefully) successful bodge/solution is found.
'Something....something.... Something about racing bicycles, but really a profound metaphor about life itself.'  Tim Krabbé. Possibly

Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #8 on: 26 September, 2018, 08:21:23 pm »
a thought; if you can't easily remount the cable and still want a change in shift ratio, maybe you could use a 'travel agent' style pulley...?

cheers

Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #9 on: 26 September, 2018, 09:18:39 pm »
Eccentric pulleys? It's all getting wonderfully Heath Robinson  ;D
'Something....something.... Something about racing bicycles, but really a profound metaphor about life itself.'  Tim Krabbé. Possibly

vorsprung

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Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #10 on: 27 September, 2018, 10:05:36 am »
It strikes me that what you really need is some 10sp Campag levers that are compatible with your old ones that are broken

Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #11 on: 27 September, 2018, 10:13:38 am »
And it's just possible that some of us here might be able to help ...

Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #12 on: 27 September, 2018, 12:05:42 pm »
*bites* Go on. Wot you got?

I'll admit though that I'm now wary of buying older MkII levers (and certainly won't touch the 'escape' versions again) without knowing their full provenance because the rh lever which I'm replacing and which was sourced off here as a pair, was pretty much on its last legs from day one. I didn't realise until it was too late either, so Cheers! to the forum member who palmed that pile of junk onto me  >:(  (It hasn't had a great amount of use over the past four of five years either but it's now become unusable.)

Tbh I reckon it would be less hassle now to change the front mech (if only i knew which one might work...) especially as I've spent an age setting up the new shifters
'Something....something.... Something about racing bicycles, but really a profound metaphor about life itself.'  Tim Krabbé. Possibly

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #13 on: 27 September, 2018, 12:11:03 pm »
Sorry I sold all my campag stuff a few years ago.   Including 2 sets of 10sp levers :)

Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #14 on: 27 September, 2018, 12:18:44 pm »
Use the old LH shifter with the new RH shifter?

Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #15 on: 27 September, 2018, 06:03:06 pm »
Use the old LH shifter with the new RH shifter?

I presume they'll look quite different, though, so may by aesthetically unpleasing, and may also feel different in the hand, which could feel odd
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #16 on: 27 September, 2018, 08:56:30 pm »
You know what they say.

Shimano wears out. 

Campag wears in shifts lousy for ever.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #17 on: 27 September, 2018, 10:32:13 pm »
I did consider the mix and match approach, and it would have looked even more freaky because my MkII shifter hood is orange! But anyway....Situation update.... I've only gorn an' got it flippin working!!!!

I don't have a stand to mount the bike on, so drivetrain issues chez moi are usually dealt with by a shift (the lever), lift (the bike) and spin (the pedals with my free hand) technique - but this is static shifting and not dynamic so doesn't replicate real world gear changing. Also I hadn't moved the front mech down the seat tube from when it was doing its thing with all three chainrings, so I slipped it down 15mm or so. Then i yanked hard and took up every last vestige of slack in the cable before clamping, so the derailleur was instantly activated on moving the lever. Also, although the cable pull per click is the same, there's only four or five clicks on an Ultrashift (MkIII) double lever compared with seven or eight on an ErgoPower (MkII) meaning there's less movement to play with from the outset with the former. The 'upshift' onto the big ring is actually quite slick now (well, slicker than it was before) and i even managed to overshift and unship the chain a couple of times on a quick blatt around the local park. Obviously I'll set the limit screw in due course to stop this happening. So when Campag works, it works! (Or shifts lousy forever...)

And as this is a bicycle forum, here are some photos of a bicycle (with a properly functioning drivetrain).

http://tinypic.com/r/2iut8pu/9
http://tinypic.com/r/tanabr/9
http://tinypic.com/r/2l87knb/9


Once again - thanks all








'Something....something.... Something about racing bicycles, but really a profound metaphor about life itself.'  Tim Krabbé. Possibly

Re: Making Campagnolo work. Part eleventy-six
« Reply #18 on: 28 September, 2018, 08:18:57 am »
Glad to hear that you got it working! :-)
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway