Author Topic: Sky - gaming the system?  (Read 41773 times)

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #850 on: November 15, 2017, 05:27:50 pm »
The really sad thing about all of this, is not what effect it has on professional racing (disastrous enough), but that if Wiggins, etal are not justly sanctioned, the public will taint the rest of us with the same belief that we all dope for racing or indeed any cycling.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #851 on: November 15, 2017, 05:34:24 pm »
I dont think anybody is going to suspect me of doping for my commute.  ;D

I just think it harms the reputation of British sport as a whole, British cyclists and cycling as a sport.

Wiggins, Brailsford and all their lies and bullshit can fuck off.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #852 on: November 15, 2017, 06:50:08 pm »
I dont think anybody is going to suspect me of doping for my commute.  ;D

I just think it harms corrects the reputation of British sport as a whole, British cyclists and cycling as a sport.

Wiggins, Brailsford and all their lies and bullshit can fuck off.

That's better, though like USPostal, they do seem better at it than the others

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #853 on: November 15, 2017, 10:14:28 pm »
If he feels so badly treated, why doesn't he just say what was in the bag?
I wonder how much Sky is paying Dr. Freeman for ruining his own career?

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #854 on: November 15, 2017, 10:18:11 pm »
If he feels so badly treated, why doesn't he just say what was in the bag?
I wonder how much Sky is paying Dr. Freeman for ruining his own career?

I would have thought there are grounds for having him struck off for professional negligence (at the very least)?

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #855 on: November 15, 2017, 11:05:25 pm »
Presumably someone high up is protecting him as part of the deal whereby he agreed to be the scapegoat?
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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #856 on: November 15, 2017, 11:18:10 pm »
Presumably someone high up is protecting him as part of the deal whereby he agreed to be the scapegoat?

British Cycling by all appearances.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #857 on: November 16, 2017, 01:18:25 am »
Presumably someone high up is protecting him as part of the deal whereby he agreed to be the scapegoat?

British Cycling by all appearances.

Brailsford got far more to lose.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #858 on: November 16, 2017, 01:14:58 pm »
Quite staggered that Wiggins appears to be asking for the identity of the whistleblower to be revealed. Given the lack of any records being kept, the accidental delivery of testosterone and deliberate ordering of large amounts of Kenacort, and consequent complete inability of UKAD to find out what had gone on it seems at best a smokescreen and at worst to be looking for an opportunity to 'make someone pay'.

Has he not read the press recently. At least one CEO has been censured for trying to obtain the identity of a whistleblower.

Mike

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #859 on: November 16, 2017, 02:05:32 pm »
It seems a weird response, from Wiggins, given that Sky admitted there had been a package delivered.

So is this the big reveal Wiggins had been promising, with his "some people will be shocked" outburst a few months back?
Doesn't sound like it. Sounds like he was preparing for a much worse outcome than the one he got...


Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #860 on: November 18, 2017, 01:48:13 pm »
I reckon Wiggins could do without Shane Sutton's idea of helping. Even Super David Millar says they were obviously gaming the system.

UKAD have been shown to be toothless and pointless. Mind you if Tyson Fury has his way, they could well be bankrupt, which would be interesting.


Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #861 on: November 18, 2017, 03:15:38 pm »
Millar says "gaming the system", Sutton says "marginal gains". Others might say "exploiting loopholes" or "being creative within the rules", all the same thing. All successful sports teams find ways to push the rules as far as they can without incurring penalties, and using TUEs is one of those ways. Unfortunately, lying on the TUE is not within the rules and testosterone is not a therapeutic use. Perhaps being caught shows British cycling (and Cycling) still haven't caught up with the Continental teams – but I'm sure they'll get caught out too. And the Chinese might be a team to watch! 
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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #862 on: November 18, 2017, 03:39:34 pm »
I found Heiko Salzwedel's sudden departure more interesting.


Quote
A coach for East Germany in the 1980s, Salzwedel has never directly addressed the systematic doping that went on in that country during that period, although this was his third stint at British Cycling, so if that was a concern, it seems odd he kept on being brought back in. Salzwedel told Telegraph Sport last year he could “not help” where he came from. He added: “It is something I am quite proud about that I was never involved in any systematic [doping] situation in any professional teams. I preferred working for federations. There is more regulation.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2017/10/12/mystery-heiko-salzwedels-future-escorted-velodrome/

mattc

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #863 on: November 18, 2017, 04:07:25 pm »
SO, we're on p35 of this:

Is Wiggins guilty or not?
Has never ridden RAAM
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #864 on: November 18, 2017, 04:17:54 pm »
Doping? Yes, of course. That was obvious ages ago but there is enough wiggle room left for apologists to give Sky a pass.

Wiggo's Olympic comeback - shades of Armstrong 2.0?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #865 on: November 18, 2017, 04:36:04 pm »
Doping? Yes, of course. That was obvious ages ago but there is enough wiggle room left for apologists to give Sky a pass.

Wiggo's Olympic comeback - shades of Armstrong 2.0?

And whether Sky and British Cycling go down is the question, not whether there was doping or even if it was systematic.

Plus ca change...

mattc

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #866 on: November 18, 2017, 06:08:50 pm »
Doping? Yes, of course. That was obvious ages ago
So he's been prosecuted/banned/fined I assume?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #867 on: November 18, 2017, 06:27:35 pm »
Ho hum, how unexpected.

In some circumstances, a lack of evidence can be presumed to be a doping positive e.g. avoiding taking a dope test. Sky has managed to obscure or lose every bit of evidence that might prove or disprove doping. Why should they get off for (hypothetically) destroying evidence?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

mattc

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #868 on: November 18, 2017, 06:32:18 pm »
Why should they get off for (hypothetically) destroying evidence?
Of course they shouldn't! (I assume you mean evidence of hypothetical doping offences?)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #869 on: November 18, 2017, 06:59:56 pm »
Hypothetically speaking, Sky destroyed evidence that could have proved that doping had occurred. Clear enough?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #870 on: November 18, 2017, 09:04:43 pm »
According to the Sky whistleblower, one of the Sky doctors (who had previously worked for UKAD) told him that UKAD had a file on Freeman because of previous suspicions.

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #871 on: November 18, 2017, 09:27:09 pm »
Is this a case of Freeman, as the medical expert, being a bad apple who was brought in by a slightly naive Brailsford as the BC Doctor who should have been a safe pair of hands (and who are laymen to tell doctors how to practice their profession, ie record keeping)? Or is it a deliberate choice of management who micromanage everything?

Or somewhere between the two - a willing blind eye whilst there are more important things to worry about?
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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #872 on: November 18, 2017, 09:51:06 pm »
Quite deliberate, I'm sure. Just as Leinders employment was quite deliberate. Apparently Sutton frequently bullied Freeman into doing things that were unethical.

I doubt very much that Brailsford was ever naive.

eck

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #873 on: November 18, 2017, 10:05:01 pm »
Scots Law allows for a verdict of "not proven".
Which means, "We know you did it. We just can't prove it."
That.  :-X
It's a bit weird, but actually quite wonderful.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #874 on: November 20, 2017, 09:24:42 am »
The really sad thing about all of this, is not what effect it has on professional racing (disastrous enough), but that if Wiggins, etal are not justly sanctioned, the public will taint the rest of us with the same belief that we all dope for racing or indeed any cycling.
I agree

There are people who I believe raced clean (Nicole Cooke for one).

It's a bloody terrible thing for them to be tainted with the rest.
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