Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: Eccentrica Gallumbits on 11 June, 2010, 05:07:39 pm
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Dear Sir or Madam
I wish to make a complaint about whoever was driving your vehicle MV55 EMJ at approximately 3.15pm today, Friday 10th June. He was male, with cropped dark hair, a dark top, and had a bluetooth earpiece on his right ear.
At about 3.15pm today I was cycling on St Mary's Street, heading towards the junction with the Royal Mile and then on to the junction with the Cowgate and up the Pleasance. St Mary's street is hilly and cobbled and the cobbles are very uneven. It's not easy to maintain a straight course on cobbles so uneven, so I was having to adjust my position to ensure I didn't come off the bike. In addition, there were parked cars at the kerb, so as advised in the Highway Code (rule 67), and in Cyclecraft (the government approved training manual for cyclists), I was in the centre of the lane to ensure I would not be hit by an opening door of a parked car.
I became aware of a lorry behind me, revving its engine. There was no room for me to move to let it pass, and the lights ahead were red, so I continued on my course. When I stopped at the red lights at the junction with the Royal Mile, the lorry driver shouted something at me. I asked him to repeat it and he said "keep to the left." I told him that there were parked cars so I couldn't move further left. He told me that the Highway Code says cyclists should keep to the left. I tried to explain that the Highway Code is clear that cyclists should position themselves so as to ensure their own safety, which in this case meant staying out of the "door zone." He then tried to tell me that I only had the right to be ahead of him at a junction if there was a red bx painted on the ground - an ASL box. I pointed out that I'd been ahead of him all the way along the road.
The driver continued to shout at me, aggressively and angrily, telling me to read the Highway Code and basically that I had no right to be in his way. When the lights changed we proceeded to the next set of red lights (at the junction with the Cowgate) and he revved his engine and made me feel threatened all the way along the road. When the lights changed and we both proceeded up the Pleasance I was in fear for my life as to how closely he might overtake me - in the end he did give me enough room.
I am disgusted that a man protected by a huge lorry would seek to intimidate, bully and harass a woman on a bike. I am very concerned that a professional driver has so little knowledge of the rules of the road, and that he thinks it's appropriate to bawl from the cab to express his impatience at having to wait ten seconds to get to a red light. Make no mistake, had I not been in front of him, he would still have got to the light on red.
As a regular cyclist in Edinburgh I have developed a reasonably thick skin, but your driver's behaviour was a disgrace. He doesn't know the Highway Code, he thinks it's ok to express his unjustified impatience by yelling at people, and he thinks vulnerable, squishy cyclists should risk their own safety to allow him to get to the next red light a few seconds earlier. I trust that you will ensure he is reminded of the parts of the Highway Code relating to cyclists, perhaps starting with Rule 67 and then 211-213, and that you will make it clear his behaviour was unacceptable. You might wish to know that I will be posting a copy of this letter and any response on internet cycling fora I use, so that other cyclists can take it into account when choosing their timber suppliers.
I await your early response
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Good one :thumbsup:
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ha, that's great. Well, it's not great that you were harrassed. Hope you get a response.
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The cobbles are so awful my new bike computer fell off and bounced across them and I'm fairly sure the lorry squashed it. I wasn't about to stop in front of him and try to go back for it. :'(
I think the tourists must have thought it was some sort of street theatre. Him in the cab yelling at me, me on the bike yelling back. They were getting a right laugh.
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Good one!
By the way today's date is Friday 11 June 2010.
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Is it? Oh, bollocks. ::-) ;D
He really upset me - I was shaky and nearly tearful when I got in. I bet he wouldn't have been half so mouthy if he'd been face to face with me in the street - but from the safety of his cab he was such a big man.
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Nicely written letter. :thumbsup:
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Fab letter Kirst. I had cause to do one myself this week, but yours is way more measured.
Looking forward to reading thier response.
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Well done, that's an excellent letter.
I had my own bit of a stir this week after reporting a driver on the phone, some super youtube responses, LOL!
YouTube
- Lewisham Homes EA05KZK EA05 KZK EA05-KZK
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF_q_cj2moQ)
jamoore04 has posted a comment on your profile:
u do ur bit for the community now i will do mine by researching to see weather it is LEGAL or NOT to post peoples number plates all over the internet!! it is rude and and invasion of peoples privacy weather for good or not!!!
MrMcnazza has made a comment on Lewisham Homes EA05KZK EA05 KZK EA05-KZK:
U sad case!!!!! u obviously havent got a social life so u have to go around doing this shit. Some day your gunna do that to the wrong person.....GRASS.....
Funnily enough I did get assaulted a little while ago, the driver got arrested by appointment on Monday, and admitted the offence and accepted a formal police caution as a result of my video evidence.
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jamoore04 has posted a comment on your profile:
u do ur bit for the community now i will do mine by researching to see weather it is LEGAL or NOT to post peoples number plates all over the internet!! it is rude and and invasion of peoples privacy weather for good or not!!!
I wonder if they cover up their number plates so that nobody can see them and invade their privacy?
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What camera are you using, bentwendy?
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I wonder if they cover up their number plates so that nobody can see them and invade their privacy?
LMAO, that's brilliant! I'll use it next time I get a comment like that.
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Lewisham Homes manage a lot of Lewisham council's housing stock. Maybe the council would be interested to know that one of their subcontractors is a) breaking the law by driving while using the phone and b) threatening you.
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That bastard needs educating by having large slab of concrete slammed on his head, but I hope your letter has some effect meanwhile.
Well done for getting the number and company.
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Lewisham Homes manage a lot of Lewisham council's housing stock. Maybe the council would be interested to know that one of their subcontractors is a) breaking the law by driving while using the phone and b) threatening you.
Thanks! I suspect the company already did a good job of bollocking on the driver from my complaint, as I think this was the cause of the three people finding the video.
I just hope you get as good a response from MGM. You had a much worse incident, and your letter was worded far better than mine.
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I had my own bit of a stir this week after reporting a driver on the phone, some super youtube responses, LOL!
YouTube
- Lewisham Homes EA05KZK EA05 KZK EA05-KZK
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF_q_cj2moQ)
Love the YouTube comments, and without wishing to make it sound acceptable, how the heck do you single out this driver over all the rest using mobile phones?
Here's my experience of a cyclist and mobile phone http://cyclesafeandhappy.blogspot.com/2010/05/numbnut-award.html (http://cyclesafeandhappy.blogspot.com/2010/05/numbnut-award.html)
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Oh, I'll point out the camera to all driving mobile phone users, but I don't bother to keep the footage of ordinary cars. The camera almost always makes them put the phone down. It's only company drivers that I'll film and report, since the consequence for them is easy and is usually painful.
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Might sound a bit antagonistic (not meant to be) but are you sure that's productive?
Imagine the conversation - "you were videoed by a cyclist using a phone" sure, it might get them to stop using a phone in their van, but not necessarily in their cars, and will probably antagonise them to cyclists. Regardless of the potential danger of using a phone, I'd rather have that than actual danger resulting from bad, inconsiderate or downright dangerous driving.
As a suggestion, if you want to have an impact on phone use you could stand by the roadside at almost any busy junction, inside half an hour you will have videoed probably 15 (?) commercial drivers using phones and the complaint would then come from a pedestrian. I've seriously thought of doing this.
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They'd just drive on the pavement at the next junction and mow the peds down.
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Accidentally or on purpose?
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You know, if you post a complaint on several internet fora, eventually it becomes googleable. And if I was to post a link to where I posted about it on a cycling forum - like this - (http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=38584) that thread would creep up the google listings so anyone googling MGM Timber would find my complaint very easily. That would be mean though.
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Oh, that would be despicable.
Or it would be - link no worky.
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Fixed it. Anyway, it doesn't matter, because that would be a terrible thing to do. Nearly as terrible as a man in a lorry bullying a woman on a bike.
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Hmm, I think I'd have waited until the company told me to f'off before I suggested that I'd publicise it wider.
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With gleat power comes gleat lesponsibility, glasshopper
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I posted about this on a non-cycling forum and one of the responses was "I know it's besides the point, but was it not possible to let the driver set off before you at either sets of traffic lights?" ::-)
And I've just got in from being out with friends - pizza and SATC2. I don't know which was worse. I told them about yesterday's incident and one of them took that as her cue to start banging on about "militant cyclists cycling 2 abreast which makes it so difficult to overtake them because you have to go onto the other side of the road and there might be something coming and they filter through queues and they think they own the roads..." I've never been so close to tipping someone's dinner over their head and walking out. And the film was awful.
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I posted about this on a non-cycling forum and one of the responses was "I know it's besides the point, but was it not possible to let the driver set off before you at either sets of traffic lights?" ::-)
And I've just got in from being out with friends - pizza and SATC2. I don't know which was worse. I told them about yesterday's incident and one of them took that as her cue to start banging on about "militant cyclists cycling 2 abreast which makes it so difficult to overtake them because you have to go onto the other side of the road and there might be something coming and they filter through queues and they think they own the roads..." I've never been so close to tipping someone's dinner over their head and walking out. And the film was awful.
Have a couple of these :-* :-* :-*
That sounds rough. :(
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Might sound a bit antagonistic (not meant to be) but are you sure that's productive?
Imagine the conversation - "you were videoed by a cyclist using a phone" sure, it might get them to stop using a phone in their van, but not necessarily in their cars, and will probably antagonise them to cyclists. Regardless of the potential danger of using a phone, I'd rather have that than actual danger resulting from bad, inconsiderate or downright dangerous driving.
I'd disagree with that - the more any driver is made to think about their actions, the better. The last company employee I spotted seeing on the phone, worked for Beds Fire & Rescue Service in their education team. After sending off a complaint letter, I got a very apologetic reply back confirming that the person had been reprimanded and the entire team had been sent on a training course highlighting the errors of mobile phone use whilst driving.
Whilst I've no doubt it annoyed the woman being caught out, the more it happens, the better, and if she moans about it to her friends, it might just make some of them think about the consequences as well.
As a suggestion, if you want to have an impact on phone use you could stand by the roadside at almost any busy junction, inside half an hour you will have videoed probably 15 (?) commercial drivers using phones and the complaint would then come from a pedestrian. I've seriously thought of doing this.
Good point, although when I do complain about people, I tend not to state if I was walking, driving or cycling as it's not really relevant. Standing and videoing drivers on their phones is something I've thought about doing as well. With a captive audience in the London rush hour, you'd get quite a few. Perhaps we ought to think about a regular stakeout. :demon:
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You know, if you post a complaint on several internet fora, eventually it becomes googleable. And if I was to post a link to where I posted about it on a cycling forum - like this - (http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=38584) that thread would creep up the google listings so anyone googling MGM Timber would find my complaint very easily. That would be mean though.
Hmm... It's only 10th at the moment. :)
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This 'two abreast' obsession puzzles me greatly. When I'm out and about in the van, overtaking a brace of riders two abreast is actually easier than if they were singled up........oh but wait, I only overtake, properly when it is safe to do so rather than squeezing by without crossing the centre line.
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I'd disagree with that - the more any driver is made to think about their actions, the better.
But you are assuming that a reprimand on their driving will make them think about their actions. I doubt it. The one thing you cannot safely question is the competence of people's driving (or cycling, often). You see, it's always OTHER people that have accidents. I can quite safely talk on the phone etc etc because I am a good driver. I must be a good driver because I can talk on the phone and drive.
These people know it is illegal. They do not seriously think that they are a danger to themselves and other road users and nothing you say, or their bosses say, will make a difference. It's the same with hard core drink drive. Long term, attitudes can be changed and it can be made unacceptable to use a phone while driving, but I suspect that your view of potential benefit from a quiet word at work is overestimated.
As far as being identified as a cyclist goes, I think it is only right that you should identify yourself if complaining and provide evidence if you have it
Whilst I've no doubt it annoyed the woman being caught out, the more it happens, the better, and if she moans about it to her friends, it might just make some of them think about the consequences as well.
Mind the flying pigs.
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I posted about this on a non-cycling forum and one of the responses was "I know it's besides the point, but was it not possible to let the driver set off before you at either sets of traffic lights?" ::-)
And I've just got in from being out with friends - pizza and SATC2. I don't know which was worse. I told them about yesterday's incident and one of them took that as her cue to start banging on about "militant cyclists cycling 2 abreast which makes it so difficult to overtake them because you have to go onto the other side of the road and there might be something coming and they filter through queues and they think they own the roads..." I've never been so close to tipping someone's dinner over their head and walking out. And the film was awful.
Oh man, you have my sympathy - I've had exactly that with friends. There are a lot of cyclist-haters lurking out there.
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At least with friends you can tell them they're wrong. I had this recently from a guy I'm doing some legal training with - he's car free himself, spends an arm and a leg on public transport, and is absolutely convinced that cycling is inherently dangerous and that all cyclists are lawbreakers.
I was smiling and trying to answer politely, but my internal Tourettes was playing up something rotten.
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I'm just in the middle of a big facebook rant about it and can't decide whether or not to tag the offending friends in it.
This 'two abreast' obsession puzzles me greatly. When I'm out and about in the van, overtaking a brace of riders two abreast is actually easier than if they were singled up........oh but wait, I only overtake, properly when it is safe to do so rather than sqeezing by without crossing the centre line.
Ah, but what I hadn't realised is that apparently it's a massive inconvenience to have to cross to the other side of the road and back again, especially if it means waiting till it's safe. Poor suffering motorists.
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A related thing baffles me - why, on a straight, clear standard width road, would anyone pass a bike too close in a car? They don't want to expend the energy required to turn a steering wheel?
Then there's the other kind -
Q: 'why did you pass me so close back there?"
A: 'because there was a car coming the other way'
::-)
BTW, what happened to the 'Give Cyclists Ropm' campaign? I have one of their bumper stickers and would like more, but the website seems dead.
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BTW, what happened to the 'Give Cyclists Ropm' campaign? I have one of their bumper stickers and would like more, but the website seems dead.
Padbeat from round these parts could tell you - he ran it. Lack of time, I would guess.
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Well said Adam, I totally agree with you.
Ham says drivers won't change their behaviour. Oh yes they will, for example in a company car. One grass-up and reprimand might do a little, several in a row and then losing your job will do a whole lot more. Next job I doubt most offenders will use the phone again.
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Good point, although when I do complain about people, I tend not to state if I was walking, driving or cycling as it's not really relevant. Standing and videoing drivers on their phones is something I've thought about doing as well. With a captive audience in the London rush hour, you'd get quite a few. Perhaps we ought to think about a regular stakeout. :demon:
This traffic island between two toucan crossings - on my morning school run - would be a good place. About every 30th driver London bought is using a handheld mobile.
<Google Maps (http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.455934,-0.329957&spn=0.00113,0.002234&t=h&z=19>)
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BTW, what happened to the 'Give Cyclists Ropm' campaign? I have one of their bumper stickers and would like more, but the website seems dead.
Padbeat from round these parts could tell you - he ran it. Lack of time, I would guess.
Maybe the CTC should step up and take on the campaign?
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I'd disagree with that - the more any driver is made to think about their actions, the better.
But you are assuming that a reprimand on their driving will make them think about their actions. I doubt it. The one thing you cannot safely question is the competence of people's driving (or cycling, often). You see, it's always OTHER people that have accidents. I can quite safely talk on the phone etc etc because I am a good driver. I must be a good driver because I can talk on the phone and drive.
These people know it is illegal. They do not seriously think that they are a danger to themselves and other road users and nothing you say, or their bosses say, will make a difference. It's the same with hard core drink drive. Long term, attitudes can be changed and it can be made unacceptable to use a phone while driving, but I suspect that your view of potential benefit from a quiet word at work is overestimated.
As far as being identified as a cyclist goes, I think it is only right that you should identify yourself if complaining and provide evidence if you have it
I never do in the first instance. It is much more fun to wait until they deny it and then send in the video
I have had a couple of occasions where the fact that they have been lied to and treated as stupid hacks the managers off rather then the driving offence.
Best one yet was a left hook where I complained to the licensing office.
The Taxi driver claimed I had been riding erratically, then I had undertaken on the inside, and placed myself in th dangerous position.
They were less than impressed when the video showed him cutting across form the outside lane, narrowly missing me and then takingthe corner on the wrong side of the road!
He was cautioned and had his license docked.
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Superb.
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I now have a copy of the Highway Code in my pocket, with all the pages relating to cyclists or how to drive near cyclists folded over, ready for dishing out to errant cockwombles.
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You will need more than one copy. :(
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I was thinking that I could make my fortune by designing and selling something, like a bottle cage bracket for the frame, but holding a perspex box just big enough to hold 10 copies of the Highway Code (relevant pages folded over and highlighted) for posting through motorists' windows.
Anyway, Peter Gourley from MGM Timber just phoned. He is a cyclist, very apologetic. Driver was not usual driver, was agency driver - and here's the good bit - they're not using that as an excuse, they're saying he'd just been through a full induction so there's absolutely no excuse for how he behaved. He has spoken to the agency and asked them to get back to him within 24 hours, and suggested that the driver be kept off the roads until this is investigated and dealt with. He'll get back to me tomorrow.
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That sounds very good - shame it takes a cyclist to be on the inside to get a quality result, but hey, it's still good.
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Awesome! *Applause* for Kirst and for MGM Timbers!!
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Awesome! *Applause* for Kirst and for MGM Timbers!!
+1
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Good point, although when I do complain about people, I tend not to state if I was walking, driving or cycling as it's not really relevant. Standing and videoing drivers on their phones is something I've thought about doing as well. With a captive audience in the London rush hour, you'd get quite a few. Perhaps we ought to think about a regular stakeout. :demon:
This traffic island between two toucan crossings - on my morning school run - would be a good place. About every 30th driver London bought is using a handheld mobile.
I used to walk from Paddington to South Kensington to get to work, there is one crossing near the north side of the park where more often than not someone would drive through after the "green man" had lit up - not just pushing an amber. I made it part of my morning routine to flick them the Vs, which was satisfying at least.
Sounds like a good response to the OP.
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I was thinking that I could make my fortune by designing and selling something, like a bottle cage bracket for the frame, but holding a perspex box just big enough to hold 10 copies of the Highway Code (relevant pages folded over and highlighted) for posting through motorists' windows.
You may wish to consider an optional staple-gun holder ...
Anyway, Peter Gourley from MGM Timber just phoned. He is a cyclist, very apologetic. Driver was not usual driver, was agency driver - and here's the good bit - they're not using that as an excuse, they're saying he'd just been through a full induction so there's absolutely no excuse for how he behaved. He has spoken to the agency and asked them to get back to him within 24 hours, and suggested that the driver be kept off the roads until this is investigated and dealt with. He'll get back to me tomorrow.
Awesome! *Applause* for Kirst and for MGM Timbers!!
Well said, that chap(ess) ..
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Excellent - good result following from a high quality initial complaint.
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You may wish to consider an optional staple-gun holder ...
Well, yes, but if people won't open their windows so I can pass them a Highway Code, I doubt they'll open them so I can staple it to their head.
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You may wish to consider an optional staple-gun holder ...
Well, yes, but if people won't open their windows so I can pass them a Highway Code, I doubt they'll open them so I can staple it to their head.
If you get an industrial staple gun and disable the safety the window won't matter much, just add to the facial scarring ;D
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You may wish to consider an optional staple-gun holder ...
Well, yes, but if people won't open their windows so I can pass them a Highway Code, I doubt they'll open them so I can staple it to their head.
If you get an industrial staple gun and disable the safety the window won't matter much, just add to the facial scarring ;D
Or use a nail gun and just attach the highway code to the car bodywork
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Awesome! *Applause* for Kirst and for MGM Timbers!!
Indeed - hurray!
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And I've just got in from being out with friends - pizza and SATC2. I don't know which was worse. I told them about yesterday's incident and one of them took that as her cue to start banging on about "militant cyclists cycling 2 abreast which makes it so difficult to overtake them because you have to go onto the other side of the road and there might be something coming and they filter through queues and they think they own the roads..." I've never been so close to tipping someone's dinner over their head and walking out. And the film was awful.
That's why I have many fewer friends now than I had ten years ago. :-\
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Wendy, I think your Lewisham driver has switched vehicles and is driving EA05 KXT today. Same vehicle type.
It amounted to little more than a bit of pointless aggressive engine revving on my back wheel as I came up through Honor Oak this morning, with a dash of tooting his hooter at me before doing a stupidly fast overtake once I gave him the space he so desperately needed.
I'd not have bothered mentioning it if it hadn't been for the fact that the idea of a Lewisham Home Repairs van driver misbehaving rang a bell, and if the behaviour hadn't been so completely inappropriate. There simply wasn't room for a van to overtake, as the road is lined with parked cars on both sides and there was plenty of oncoming traffic and traffic islands. I have no doubt that he would have done the same if I'd been driving a milk float or a hearse...
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They phoned me back again. The agency driver is not from Edinburgh so he agreed to come in all the way from Berwick upon Tweed to a meeting to discuss the issue. The agency wouldn't give the full content of the meeting to MGM Timber, but what MGM Timber have said to me is that the driver felt there was space for me to move over to let him past, but he accepts that that's my right to decide that and if I felt maintaining a safe course on uneven cobbles was going to be impossible further to the left, then that's up to me and he shouldn't have reacted as he did. And he has taken a copy of the Highway Code away to read up on the points I had pointed out. ;D
I think that's really positive. I was convinced the driver would just deny it or try to say it was all my fault and it would be my word against his, so this is a much better outcome than I would have hoped for. So you can all buy your timber from them again now.
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Well said Adam, I totally agree with you.
Ham says drivers won't change their behaviour. Oh yes they will, for example in a company car. One grass-up and reprimand might do a little, several in a row and then losing your job will do a whole lot more. Next job I doubt most offenders will use the phone again.
Quite right.
It's really important to make a complaint when appropriate, and to follow it up, but it's really hard work.
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Good stuff Kirst.
bloody well done old Gal ;D
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I don't actually need any timber at the moment but I'm sorely tempted. ;D Very well done Kirst, a good result.