Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Ctrl-Alt-Del => Topic started by: ian on 22 August, 2019, 10:27:50 am
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Where does the panel stand on recommended access points – at the moment, I have a BT Home Hub 5 under the stairs which is useless for wifi (admittedly it's sub-optimal positioning, but that's where the telephone line lives) and nothing connects to it? But it pipes the internet through a powerline ethernet adapter to an old BT Home Hub 3 in the bedroom repurposed as an access point. I have that set up now and pretty much everything connects to it, such as all the Sonos devices (which will only connect to a single ssid network).
That said, while the BT Home Hub 3 appears to do well at putting wiffle rays out to devices on the ground floor (I assume the floors and joists don't put up much resistance), the signal upstairs is crap. The Asbestos Palace has solid brick and breezeblock walls and embedded in those walls are wardrobes which my wife has spent the last five years filling with her clothes and shoes, cramming more and more in, and promising that yes, one day, she'll have a clear out. That day, I doubt will ever come and she's not about to stop buying shoes, so assume a growing hyperdense mass of radio frequency-absorbing feminine footwear and clothes that 'don't fit' even though she bought them yesterday and she doesn't appear to have worn them.
Anyway, wiffle-waffle aside, there's nowhere to plug aerials or anything to boost the Home Hub 3 and I think it's officially a bit shit at putting out a wifi signal. My understanding is that range extenders piggyback the current signal so need a decent signal to start with and can result in congestion etc. so I think I need a more powerful a/p with enough aerials to look like a Russian military base.
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Despite the potential problems with range extenders, I had good results with this one in my previous abode:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B013SYHHI2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I don't use it now and I'd be happy to post it to you if you want to give it a try.
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OK, that would be nice, a better idea of doing my usual and buying something that works no better and then shoving it in a drawer until it deprecates into an unusable standard. I shall send you a note forthwith.
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We're pretty hungry WiFi users.
We're not rich enough for Google Mesh (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Google-Wi-Fi-Whole-System-White/dp/B06XWL99TQ/ref=asc_df_B06XWL99TQ/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310584977443&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4626771964561234244&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9046817&hvtargid=pla-347256689186&psc=1&th=1&psc=1) so we use the BT equivalent (https://shop.bt.com/learnmore/bt-branded-products-and-services/bt-whole-home-wi-fi/?ReferrerID=MA01&utm_source=maxus&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=10CD_-_Whole_Home_-_Brand_-_Exact&utm_content=MA01&gclid=CjwKCAjw-vjqBRA6EiwAe8TCkxO4zSZv4TKJMEmzHiT7tP-h4TnAlSjeCx5Tc4a7llzhn7SHBzfYTBoCM_0QAvD_BwE) which works just fine for our fairly cubic 4 bed detatched.
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A more powerful access point doesn't really help. Yes, it can transmit further, but your devices won't be powerful enough to transmit the other way.
But still, a newer, better quality access point could be an improvement.
The Ubiquiti UAP-AC-LITE is rather good. Maybe a bit complicated to setup, but works reliably. It doesn't actually have any sticky-out aerials, but seems to give pretty decent coverage.
Or if necessary, you could get several of them, they can be setup to work together as a single network.
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I was carefully not mentioning Unifi kit. It's in the class of stuff that's rock solid and Just Works™ iff you've got a) enough structured cabling that probably means you don't care about the reliability of the WiFi quite as much in the first place and b) a unisex spaceadmin on hand to configure / maintain it.
But yes, once you've got multiple APs you can do the clever stuff like turn the power *down* to ensure that clients always associate with the AP that they've got the best line-of-sight to, rather than clinging to the echos of the one on the far side of the house, and roam properly (for WiFi values of 'roam properly') between them.
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I'll try the Sergeant Pluck method – the mesh thing looks interesting as an alternative. I think the BT HH 3 is just crap to be honest. At the moment to listen to tunes in the bathroom (which is surprisingly important to me) requires placing the Sonos speaker in the doorway, which is inconvenient and perplexes the cats even more so that why humans subject themselves to baths. And my wife complained so much about her Window's laptop dropping wifi signal (despite being the next room to the Hub) that I gave up and bought a powerline adapter. Though that might just be her work laptop, her iMac works fine. The Asbestos Palace is a rather modest detached house and not an actual palace. Dickering with settings and channels makes no difference.
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We had to go Mesh when we installed two trainers using Zwift in a backwater of the house.
When training meets gaming - pings matter, and NONE of this shit is wired.
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The other problem with WiFi is that often you find a setup that works fine, until you bring along a new device and discover that, say, the Mega-Global We-Are-Not-Intel corporation of Schaumburg, USAnia has a broken implementation that means it won't stay connected in a way that sounds almost but not quite entirely different to the symptoms of one of the Mega-Global Fruit Corporation of Cupertino, USAnia's broken implementations of a several of years previously.
The only way to win at The Devil's Radio is to use a fucking cable. And none of that wideband-noise-superimposed-on-your-power-cabling nonsense, either.
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I'll try the Sergeant Pluck method – the mesh thing looks interesting as an alternative.
If it doesn’t help, as Kim says, cable closer to where you need it might be the way to go.
You mention Sonos. I had no issues as my Sonos connects via a Bridge, not my router, but I’m aware that Sonos doesn’t always behave well with some extenders and may require faffage:
https://en.community.sonos.com/troubleshooting-228999/home-network-stability-and-a-few-tips-to-help-resolve-many-issues-6811285
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I was carefully not mentioning Unifi kit. It's in the class of stuff that's rock solid and Just Works™ iff you've got a) enough structured cabling that probably means you don't care about the reliability of the WiFi quite as much in the first place and b) a unisex spaceadmin on hand to configure / maintain it.
They now have an app, which seems to be a lot simpler for setting it all up. If you just want use it as a simple access point, no need to setup the controller software etc.
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I was carefully not mentioning Unifi kit. It's in the class of stuff that's rock solid and Just Works™ iff you've got a) enough structured cabling that probably means you don't care about the reliability of the WiFi quite as much in the first place and b) a unisex spaceadmin on hand to configure / maintain it.
They now have an app, which seems to be a lot simpler for setting it all up. If you just want use it as a simple access point, no need to setup the controller software etc.
Ah, I haven't really played with the app, but that would make it a lot more practical for a simple domestic installation.
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The only way to win at The Devil's Radio is to use a fucking cable. And none of that wideband-noise-superimposed-on-your-power-cabling nonsense, either.
This ^^^^.
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The only way to win at The Devil's Radio is to use a fucking cable. And none of that wideband-noise-superimposed-on-your-power-cabling nonsense, either.
This ^^^^.
How many houses have structured cabling installed though? Our current place was brand new when we moved in three years ago, so it's new. There's a couple of Virgin Media ports (one in the lounge, the other in the bedroom - presumably for pr0n) which look like they're RJ45.
I'm betting most housebuilders think WiFi is good enough.
ETA: Also - isn't it a PITA to install because it can't run beside power cables, it has to be perpendicular, to avoid interference?
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I'm betting most housebuilders think WiFi is good enough.
My FiL's newbuild has Ethernet ports in most rooms all going up to a patch panel in the attic. Completely unused though, his broadband router isn't even patched in and everything (a couple of computers, phone, iPad) all connect through the wireless.
The only thing using one of the runs for was for HDMI+IR over Cat 5 adapters to connect the Sky+ box (in the attic next to the patch panel) to the TV in the lounge.
On a previous previous visit they'd tried to get the Sky+ box to talk to the wireless (opposite corners of the house) to be able to watch catchup TV but the Sky wireless adapter couldn't quite connect reliably. So next time I was down there I took a couple of patch cables (and the trusty network tester) and the plan was to put the Sky+ wireless adapter downstairs somewhere (near the broadband router) and patch it in to the sky box, but someone had obviously tried the wireless adapter again and got it to connect.
A full rewire of the flat is on the big long list of things to do and I'll be getting networking cable put in and a 1-wire bus. In the mean time a Home Hub 6 in one corner of the flat and a single extra disk in the other corner has everything covered nicely. If I watch the logs I can even spot when friends/family are arriving outside as their phones pick up an IP address from the DHCP server.
I'd love to get rid of my wideband-noise-superimposed-on-your-power-cabling nonsense.
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The cabling in Larrington Towers is as unstructured as you can possibly imagine, with the link between the Great Hall (where the router lives) and the Estate Office upstairs being a length of Cat 6 nailed* to the skirting board.
* well, disciplined by cable-clips-with-nails
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The cabling in Larrington Towers is as unstructured as you can possibly imagine, with the link between the Great Hall (where the router lives) and the Estate Office upstairs being a length of Cat 6 nailed* to the skirting board.
* well, disciplined by cable-clips-with-nails
Kimbarakta HQ has a similar arrangement, on account of Generation Rent not-altering-the-fabric-of-the-landlord's-crappy-house compliance issues. It's amazing quite how many cables you can wedge under a door if you do a bit of crafty filing. Thankfully, there are enough crumbling hundred year old floorboards to provide opportunistic cable-running gaps to link the upstairs server rack[1] to the downstairs comms cabinet[2]. I have a knee-kicker and I'm not afraid to use it.
A single UAP-AC-Pro at the centre of the house just about does the job for the (portable, battery powered) wireless stuff, while broadcasting anti-brexit propaganda in the SSID of spare VLANs. The 2.4GHz band is a bit of a lost cause during term time, though.
[1] Actually a server rack.
[2] A switch and POE injector balanced precariously on a shelf between the hoover and some woodworking supplies in the Cupboard Of Doom.
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We actually did have ethernet (and telephone cabling) in our last place (though we had to pay extra, as it was bought off-plan, so it was all you want a door, sir? Well that'll cost...). As it turned out, like most newbuilds, it was mostly constructed of compacted tissue paper and thin air, so wifi was more than efficacious enough without the need to faff with wires (more so given the internet was initially less-than-breathless ADSL speeds). I think I asked about this place when we had it refurbished and rewired and the quote wasn't insubstantial (certainly more the most-superduperist mesh that hadn't yet been invented).
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When I've had ceilings/walls down, I've shoved lengths of Cat5 in. That's to beat the stone walls.
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I have a bt home hub 5 and sit about as far away as possible within the house with my iPad. On the 2.4ghz frequency the wifi is useless but since fixing the iPad on the 5ghz frequency it works just fine. I presume you've tried this?
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If I recall the Home Hub 3 that I repurposed as a access point (after a better Belkin went *pop*) doesn't support 5 GHz.
One of the things about wifi as a 'consumer technology' is that it's far too complicated to be a consumer technology.
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2.4GHz is usually better range, and better at going through walls etc than 5GHz.
Main advantage of 5GHz is more channels, without overlapping. So less likely to get interference from your neighbours.
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As usual, I agree with Kim! Powerline networks are somewhat arse, but as an extender from the house to the garage over 100ft away which has power but no cat5/6
it works for me
We've also used it in the house when the wifi signal isn't great
At one point I liked to work in the garden and I set up a wifi AP with a high gain directional antenna aimed at the garden
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2.4GHz is usually better range, and better at going through walls etc than 5GHz.
Main advantage of 5GHz is more channels, without overlapping. So less likely to get interference from your neighbours.
That's what I thought. The HH5 imprisoned under the stairs runs dual band but hardly anything picks up the 5GHz, but then hardly any device willingly connects to it as the signal has to go through at least one solid wall to get anywhere. Ironically, it probably does get a signal into the bathroom, but the rest of the network (including Sonos) is on the AP upstairs and thus a different SSID.
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I've found that turning down the AP's transmit power on the 2.4GHz band helps persuade dual-band devices to stay on 5GHz (moreso than band steering alone). Increased penetration (which isn't really a problem in this house anyway) doesn't make up for the interference on 2.4GHz - here a slightly weaker 5GHz signal makes for a more robust connection.
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What Kim said. Especially the bit about cable>Wifi.
I run ~75 Unifi APs at work, with great results. There's a learning curve when you install the controller and set up your networks but after that you can add new APs very easily. And it's all just wifi really.
IME the challenge is to create as many discrete wifi "cells" as possible and avoid overlaps. With Unifi it's trivial to have all your APs use the same SSID but space out the channels so they don't interfere with each other - on 5Ghz anyway. 2.4Ghz is pretty much obsolete IMO. The range is too great and there are only 3 separate channels so it's only useful for legacy kit.
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First discovery (courtesy of the Sergeant's generosity) pulled up the message that Sonos really wasn't going to play with a range extender. They smell, miss! or words to that effect. They don't really advertise the fact that Sonos only work on the single network device, it's squirrelled away in the support pages. Which I only read after the fact because I'm a boy.
I probably just need to wire one up and try it that way – of course, if I draw a Venn diagram of rooms with a wired ethernetty box and rooms with a Sonos device in them, there's no overlap.
More tinkering required and wandering around the house with a Macbook looking at the bloody signal (there should be a phone app for that, I'm sure).
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I haven't read all the other replies, mainly because I don't actually understand half of them so do feel free to ignore me if this has already been suggested. When we had this problem (long, thin house constructed of breeze block downstairs and the router in one corner of the house) I deployed the standard middle class solution of walking into the nearest John Lewis and asking the most techie looking bloke in the electrical dept. His proposal was to not to use the plug-in range extenders but buy the Google wifi units (which they didn't sell at the time) so I duly bought two of the Google units. One plugs in to the router (turn the wireless off on the router first :facepalm:) and the other now sits in the dinning room half way along the house. Setting it all up was really easy. So easy that I could do it without swearing. And they are magic or something. Wifi everywhere in the house and it works with the Sonos too. Brilliant. All we need now is a stable signal constantly from BT but living about 200m from the exchange that does not seem to be possible at the moment.
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My voyage of wifi discovery so far has taught me:
(a) Do not live in a house with actual walls can aren't made out of compacted tissue paper and can't be blown down with a huff and a puff.
(b) Things wifi will work when they work, and they won't don't work when they don't. Do not believe you can influence this.
(c) You could spend the rest of your life jibbering with channels and the like to no appreciable gain beyond leaving them on auto. See point (b).
(e) mesh is probably the way to go (the Google one looks reasonably priced).
Now I think Sonos will work on a mesh. Or they may mesh themselves if I wire one up.
Let's add
(f) The time spent looking at the internet is proportional to your level of confusion.
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Sonos appear to have developed a boosting thingy.
https://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/boost.html
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They do, but as far as I can tell, just plugging a wired ethernet connection into any existing Sonos speaker will create a separate wireless mesh. I just need to rejig things to make that possible.
Possibly Cliff Richard had it right: he was wired for sound. Mind you, I wouldn't want Cliff Richard in my bathroom. He'd probably be trailing an entire police force, six helicopters, and the entire BBC. And a cable.
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If it's any consolation, Hawkwind's Dave Brock was both wired up for sound and earthed to the ground. Though you probably wouldn't want him in your bathroom either.
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Well, to work the speaker in the bathroom I have to trail an extension cord from the hall in that very British fashion. I could, I expect, source a US-style power cable and use the shaver socket but then where would I plug in the ambient lighting?
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How many houses have structured cabling installed though?
Some Victorian houses have structured cabling throughout, including UHF distribution ;D
tbh, I put it in 20 years ago, and it is still handy, but I probably wouldn't do it today, significantly I haven't changed the patching for years.
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I was gonna say, if the BTHH is under the stairs, drill a wee hole up to the next floor and shove Cat5 cable through it to another router.
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When I've had ceilings/walls down, I've shoved lengths of Cat5 in. That's to beat the stone walls.
Like we did down the copper tube in the upper middle of this photie :)
https://flic.kr/p/GE34ds
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I was gonna say, if the BTHH is under the stairs, drill a wee hole up to the next floor and shove Cat5 cable through it to another router.
I'm not allowed to use power toys. Or unpowered tools for that matter. We did get a quote for putting in some cat5 when we had the wiring redone, but it was fairly expensive and would have added more time and money to the project (the original plan to have the place refurbished while we were elsewhere having fallen through because of the absurdities of English property transactions and generically useless solicitors).
We could get our Man to do it, he loves drilling holes and taking a hammer to our house (he's already ripped out my downstairs loo and made a hole in the bathroom ceiling and that's just this week, we're screwed if he gets his hands on dynamite), but there's a powerline adaptor that runs from under the stairs to a router upstairs, which seems adequate. Having replaced that router with a kindly supplied better a/p delivers decent wifi (217 Mb/s as I sup my coffee in the remote command centre and there's an exterior wall between me and the machine).
It didn't solve the Sonos problem though – despite wiring it to another powerline adaptor, which should make them mesh – still a bit flaky upstairs. And I can't blame my wife and her bogon emissions this time, as she's in Spain. It could be the cats.
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They do, but as far as I can tell, just plugging a wired ethernet connection into any existing Sonos speaker will create a separate wireless mesh.
It will, but if, like me, you don’t have a speaker close to where the router is to sensibly cable it up, then the boost is excellent. Mine sits on the back bedroom windowsill, and connects reliably to the speaker in the shed, a line-of-sight 35m away. Got mine off eBay.
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It didn't solve the Sonos problem though – despite wiring it to another powerline adaptor, which should make them mesh – still a bit flaky upstairs. And I can't blame my wife and her bogon emissions this time, as she's in Spain. It could be the cats.
They don’t play well with power line adapters, which is what I initially had in the shed mentioned above. Hence the addition of the boost.
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BN: I am at the Battle Mountain Super 8 where the internets will shortly be clogged up with a hundred or more Young People doing Social Media.
GN: My room is at the right end of the building for the free wifi of the Scottish Restaurant next door to be within range.
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Why not switch the HH3 & 5 units around? On the assumption that the newer Home Hub 5 would be pumping out a more powerful wifi signal.
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I could just turn off the wireless on the HH5, nothing ever connects to it. It just sits there and bleats its SSID to an uncaring audience. It's the support act for the wifi upstairs and everyone is in the bar. I seem to have reasonable wifi now, it just didn't fix the Sonos problem. Which might not be a Sonos problem, it could AirPlay, robotic squirrels, or the fact that I have a Hell portal under the hallway floor. The myriad complexities of modern life are hard to fathom. It may be interference. I should also turn off the bloody BTwifi-x and the other crud it puts out. You have no friends, BT HH5, accept it. The Arlo hub on the other hand, puts out a fearsome signal. That punches through to the garage at the bottom of the garden. I'm not sure what Chromecast is doing, but it has its own network too. Then the neighbours, EE-that, BT-that, TalkTalk, Sky, and the randomly appearing PrettyFlyForAWifi. There's frankly a lot more SSIDs than I have neighbours. The Sonos is on channel 1 which everyone seems to hate. I should also unbury the speaker in my wife's office as she buried up under a menagerie soft toys and squished behind a monitor which I'm sure is electromajickally shielded.
That said, when it works it works, and I currently have Waxahatchee blasting out in my remote command centre, the dining room, and the kitchen. I think it's just scared to go upstairs.
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Eventually mostly solved this with a Boost. I have no idea what my wife does to wifi signals, but she's quite radio-opaque. If she stands in front of a speaker for more than several seconds it cuts out. I've tried this and I have no effect. I have found that calling a woman 'radio-opaque' isn't good for my health, however.