e-scooter trial

[nobby]

[1] You can have a hand throttle to control the power output a modern e-bike, but it needs to be interlocked with some form of pedal sensing to comply.

Unless the shop supplies a kit for the purchaser and then it can have a throttle the chap at Woosh Cycles of Southend told me.
He cannot fit a kit with the hand throttle included, nor supply an bike with a fitted throttle from his business but he can supply kits with throttles.

Besides that, the whole disability cycling laws need reviewing and updating.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've seen a few but not many "e-vespas" like road runner saw (and one was famously but briefly a star of the anti-Lukashenko protests) but I don't think any have had two seats. It's good that they do, it should end the "two up on a scooter! shock!" moans.

[Kim]

[1] You can have a hand throttle to control the power output a modern e-bike, but it needs to be interlocked with some form of pedal sensing to comply.

Unless the shop supplies a kit for the purchaser and then it can have a throttle the chap at Woosh Cycles of Southend told me.
He cannot fit a kit with the hand throttle included, nor supply an bike with a fitted throttle from his business but he can supply kits with throttles.

Yes, a kit's fine.  It's not a bike.  It's only when you've got it fitted to a bike and use it on the road that you break the law.

[Kim]

The following just landed in my inbox:

We’d like to make you aware of some important modifications to your local Voi service.

In Birmingham City Centre, we are making some changes to how you collect and park our e-scooters.  We will be moving to a mandatory parking model. So what does this mean for you? You will now have to end your ride in one of the mandatory parking zones (as shown below) in the app. You will be unable to lock your scooter outside of these bays.

Please remember it’s your responsibility as a Voi rider to think before you park. We hope this new way of parking  will help keep Voi’s parked tidily across the city centre.

If you have any questions or concerns, please contact our User Support team on support@voiapp.io.

[nuttycyclist]

I saw one of these today, parked outside a shop as I walked past. The motorbike fat tyres caught my eye and then the two seats. A few minutes later it whizzed past me at a rate of knots. That is why I looked it up (here, on Amazon) when I got home, noticing it can do 50kph (a bit over 30mph).

It is called both an e-scooter and an e-bike but it resembles a Vespa scooter more than a child's stand on, push along scooter. I would call it an e-motorbike. I wonder what governments will classify these as.

By the way, the description on Amazon made me laugh. It is described as light weight, easy to take upstairs, yet the net weight is 58kg. Have you ever tried carrying 58kg upstairs?

They would be mopeds. Perfectly legal, once you have a numberplate, insurance, VED (zero, or close to) and a motorcycle helmet.

<sarcasm>As they can do 30 mph, they won't slow down any cars in town, so anyone driving them won't be hooted at for annoying drivers, or close passed, or told that they need insurance, tax and to stop jumping red lights.</sarcasm>

I haven't looked up the legislation as I don't have the time nor interest.  At the weekend I was out and saw a "typical moped" as we've seen for years.   Front fairing, seat, top box on back, weaving in traffic, rider in full face helmet, etc.

What caught my eye was a lack of numberplate.   Instead it had a rear yellow plate saying "electric bike, no need for registration".

[Cudzoziemiec]

The following just landed in my inbox:

We’d like to make you aware of some important modifications to your local Voi service.

In Birmingham City Centre, we are making some changes to how you collect and park our e-scooters.  We will be moving to a mandatory parking model. So what does this mean for you? You will now have to end your ride in one of the mandatory parking zones (as shown below) in the app. You will be unable to lock your scooter outside of these bays.

Please remember it’s your responsibility as a Voi rider to think before you park. We hope this new way of parking  will help keep Voi’s parked tidily across the city centre.

If you have any questions or concerns, please contact our User Support team on support@voiapp.io.

Does that mean actual docking or just parking within a defined area? And if the latter, how tight are the areas – are they specific zones on the pavement (or even road) or are they just "this street not that street"?

[DuncanM]

I saw one of these today, parked outside a shop as I walked past. The motorbike fat tyres caught my eye and then the two seats. A few minutes later it whizzed past me at a rate of knots. That is why I looked it up (here, on Amazon) when I got home, noticing it can do 50kph (a bit over 30mph).

It is called both an e-scooter and an e-bike but it resembles a Vespa scooter more than a child's stand on, push along scooter. I would call it an e-motorbike. I wonder what governments will classify these as.

By the way, the description on Amazon made me laugh. It is described as light weight, easy to take upstairs, yet the net weight is 58kg. Have you ever tried carrying 58kg upstairs?

They would be mopeds. Perfectly legal, once you have a numberplate, insurance, VED (zero, or close to) and a motorcycle helmet.

<sarcasm>As they can do 30 mph, they won't slow down any cars in town, so anyone driving them won't be hooted at for annoying drivers, or close passed, or told that they need insurance, tax and to stop jumping red lights.</sarcasm>

I haven't looked up the legislation as I don't have the time nor interest.  At the weekend I was out and saw a "typical moped" as we've seen for years.   Front fairing, seat, top box on back, weaving in traffic, rider in full face helmet, etc.

What caught my eye was a lack of numberplate.   Instead it had a rear yellow plate saying "electric bike, no need for registration".

Unless it was pedal assist (and limited to 250W, and no e-assist above 15.5mph), that's just wrong.

[Kim]

I haven't looked up the legislation as I don't have the time nor interest.  At the weekend I was out and saw a "typical moped" as we've seen for years.   Front fairing, seat, top box on back, weaving in traffic, rider in full face helmet, etc.

What caught my eye was a lack of numberplate.   Instead it had a rear yellow plate saying "electric bike, no need for registration".

Unless it was pedal assist (and limited to 250W, and no e-assist above 15.5mph), that's just wrong.

Nevertheless, compliant e-bikes that look like motorcycles are very much A Thing.  The pedalling is conspicuous.

[nuttycyclist]

I haven't looked up the legislation as I don't have the time nor interest.  At the weekend I was out and saw a "typical moped" as we've seen for years.   Front fairing, seat, top box on back, weaving in traffic, rider in full face helmet, etc.

What caught my eye was a lack of numberplate.   Instead it had a rear yellow plate saying "electric bike, no need for registration".

Unless it was pedal assist (and limited to 250W, and no e-assist above 15.5mph), that's just wrong.

Nevertheless, compliant e-bikes that look like motorcycles are very much A Thing.  The pedalling is conspicuous.

This guy looked like any other moped rider.  Full face helmet and bike gear, feet flat on floor pan and I saw no action other a twist of the wrist.   But he/she was gone before I could look further.

[Kim]

I haven't looked up the legislation as I don't have the time nor interest.  At the weekend I was out and saw a "typical moped" as we've seen for years.   Front fairing, seat, top box on back, weaving in traffic, rider in full face helmet, etc.

What caught my eye was a lack of numberplate.   Instead it had a rear yellow plate saying "electric bike, no need for registration".

Unless it was pedal assist (and limited to 250W, and no e-assist above 15.5mph), that's just wrong.

Nevertheless, compliant e-bikes that look like motorcycles are very much A Thing.  The pedalling is conspicuous.

This guy looked like any other moped rider.  Full face helmet and bike gear, feet flat on floor pan and I saw no action other a twist of the wrist.   But he/she was gone before I could look further.

Might be a non-compliant e-bike that looks like a motorcycle, of course.

[graculus]

If you are looking to gen up on the law re e-scooters then this should be a good start:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000x6wh

The driver of the e-scooter who was in a collision in Wolverhampton a few days ago has died from his injuries; calls starting for all scooters (in a trial scheme or otherwise) to be banned. Andy Street is saying politely 'not going to happen':

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/birmingham/2021/06/22/five-serious-e-scooter-injuries/

[ian]

If you are looking to gen up on the law re e-scooters then this should be a good start:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000x6wh

The driver of the e-scooter who was in a collision in Wolverhampton a few days ago has died from his injuries; calls starting for all scooters (in a trial scheme or otherwise) to be banned. Andy Street is saying politely 'not going to happen':

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/birmingham/2021/06/22/five-serious-e-scooter-injuries/

Sarah Gayton, street access campaigns coordinator for the National Federation of the Blind of the UK, made up some facts to support her arguments. 'Many people have emailed me their support,' she then went on to say.

[grams]

The driver of the e-scooter who was in a collision in Wolverhampton a few days ago has died from his injuries;

You seem to have deleted the car from your summary.

[graculus]

The driver of the e-scooter who was in a collision in Wolverhampton a few days ago has died from his injuries;

You seem to have deleted the car from your summary.

A slip, I had been following this story and perhaps assumed more knowledge by readers here of the situation than I should. You are correct to point out this omission.

[barakta]

yeah, I know many of those blind people personally and while I understand their concerns, they are failing to separate "blocking pavements" and "being driven dangerously to people" from scooters as a concept.

I have called a few of them out saying I don't support bad parking and riding, but if used considerately I am fine with them and "Oh hai, CAR in that equation".

[andrewc]

The following just landed in my inbox:

We’d like to make you aware of some important modifications to your local Voi service.

In Birmingham City Centre, we are making some changes to how you collect and park our e-scooters.  We will be moving to a mandatory parking model. So what does this mean for you? You will now have to end your ride in one of the mandatory parking zones (as shown below) in the app. You will be unable to lock your scooter outside of these bays.

Please remember it’s your responsibility as a Voi rider to think before you park. We hope this new way of parking  will help keep Voi’s parked tidily across the city centre.

If you have any questions or concerns, please contact our User Support team on support@voiapp.io.

Just had the same in Liverpool.  Email a couple of minutes ago. 

[quixoticgeek]

So now you can't take a scooter to the shops, lock it while you shop, then come out and take it home...

That seems like a flaw...

J

[Kim]

So now you can't take a scooter to the shops, lock it while you shop, then come out and take it home...

You probably can if you keep the hire period running.

Either way, something needs to be done about them being abandoned in stupid places on the pavement.  Hopefully they'll do cars next.  And then the bins.

[DuncanM]

So now you can't take a scooter to the shops, lock it while you shop, then come out and take it home...

That seems like a flaw...

No, it's a hire scooter. You take it from where you hired it to where you are allowed to leave it and walk away. If you want to scoot onwards, you get another (or the same one) from the scooter box. In the nearby shops there are probably 4 different locations within 100 yards where you can leave/collect a scooter, so (possible ableism here) it's not a big deal to walk to the shops you need.
Though Kim's solution is probably functional as well - if you leave the meter running then it will let you leave it anywhere. You just have to pay for that time (and hope no-one nicks it). I'm not sure the scooter companies would be happy with anyone locking up their scooter without the meter running - that stops them from making money from someone else from using it.

[quixoticgeek]

No, it's a hire scooter. You take it from where you hired it to where you are allowed to leave it and walk away. If you want to scoot onwards, you get another (or the same one) from the scooter box. In the nearby shops there are probably 4 different locations within 100 yards where you can leave/collect a scooter, so (possible ableism here) it's not a big deal to walk to the shops you need.
Though Kim's solution is probably functional as well - if you leave the meter running then it will let you leave it anywhere. You just have to pay for that time (and hope no-one nicks it). I'm not sure the scooter companies would be happy with anyone locking up their scooter without the meter running - that stops them from making money from someone else from using it.

No, that's not the use case. If you are going to the shop, you want to be able to go both ways on the same device. And you want to be able to go to shops that perhaps are not next to a dock.

If you can keep the meter running and lock the device, that is expected behaviour. If you can't, that's just knobbling it's functionality.

J

[DuncanM]

No, it's a hire scooter. You take it from where you hired it to where you are allowed to leave it and walk away. If you want to scoot onwards, you get another (or the same one) from the scooter box. In the nearby shops there are probably 4 different locations within 100 yards where you can leave/collect a scooter, so (possible ableism here) it's not a big deal to walk to the shops you need.
Though Kim's solution is probably functional as well - if you leave the meter running then it will let you leave it anywhere. You just have to pay for that time (and hope no-one nicks it). I'm not sure the scooter companies would be happy with anyone locking up their scooter without the meter running - that stops them from making money from someone else from using it.

No, that's not the use case. If you are going to the shop, you want to be able to go both ways on the same device. And you want to be able to go to shops that perhaps are not next to a dock.

If you can keep the meter running and lock the device, that is expected behaviour. If you can't, that's just knobbling it's functionality.

If your use case is going home then you still have to get from the dock to your home. And if there are a number of devices at the docks, why does it matter which one you use for any given leg of the journey?
If the problem is people dumping scooters in the middle of the pavement, I'm not sure how being able to lock it in any location with the meter running solves that problem.

[quixoticgeek]

If your use case is going home then you still have to get from the dock to your home. And if there are a number of devices at the docks, why does it matter which one you use for any given leg of the journey?
If the problem is people dumping scooters in the middle of the pavement, I'm not sure how being able to lock it in any location with the meter running solves that problem.

What if your target shop does not have a nearby dock?

J

[Kim]

Yeahbut dockless hire is currently knobbling the footway's functionality.  That needs to be dealt with, otherwise the hire scheme will (rightly) get shut down.

In the particular case of central Birmingham it's pretty much a non-issue: The city centre is small enough that most things are a short walk from each other, while being utterly impenetrable to law-abiding wheeled vehicle users, on account of a proliferation of pedestrianised areas^[1], tram tracks, anti-terrorism barriers and one-way streets that all lead to the inner ring road^[2].  The use-case isn't that you use a scooter to get around the city centre, so much as in and out of it.

Voi appear to have distributed the docks I posted a photo of a couple of pages back around the city centre, and may have geo-fenced other suitable areas for parking without physical docks.  Looking on the app, there's a typical-for-docked-bike-hire distribution of parking areas in the more accessible parts of the city.  Which makes them about as useful as Boris (or indeed Beryl) Bikes; if there isn't a nearby dock, you walk.  Hire schemes were never going to be door-to-door the way owning your own bike or scooter would be.  At best, a dockless scheme tends to be somewhere-a-short-walk-away-to-door, and a docked scheme is short-walk-away to short-walk-away, like public transport.


_{[1] These are legal, and sometimes necessary, to cycle on.  But not exactly fun, on account of dense foot traffic.  The Voi scooters' speed limiting kicks in when you enter them.
[2] For those not familiar with Birmingham, picture the sort of 1960s car-centric concrete monstrosity that comes to mind when someone says 'Birmingham'.}

[DuncanM]

If your use case is going home then you still have to get from the dock to your home. And if there are a number of devices at the docks, why does it matter which one you use for any given leg of the journey?
If the problem is people dumping scooters in the middle of the pavement, I'm not sure how being able to lock it in any location with the meter running solves that problem.

What if your target shop does not have a nearby dock?

It works as Kim has described in the parts of Oxford that have these scooters currently. Because they don't have to have any physical infrastructure, just painted boxes, there are docks in the shopping area at fairly regular intervals. I'd guess that the front of any shop is within 40m of a dock. Given you probably had to walk significantly further to get on the scooter, that seems to be reasonable. Whether they will be able to achieve this density of docks when they expand the trial remains to be seen, but if they don't and you can clog up pavements with them, they will be canned pretty quickly.

[Kim]

I'm waiting with interest to see what happens to them outside the city centre.  I haven't spent much time in central Birmingham on account of the pandemic, but the scooters have been littering the (already congested with bins) footways of Silly Oak since the scheme expanded this far out.  They've been a problem for barakta, on account of limited mobility and visual impairment, and more so for wheeled pavement users.

If they geodock them to the more spacious corners it would reduce the obstruction, and probably not make the walk to find a scooter much worse most of the time.

Currently, the nearest scooter is at a preferred parking location by the University South Gate about 260m walk from here.  By way of comparison, the nearest Beryl Bike dock is 400m walk, and the bus stop towards town is 350m.  (A couple of days ago, a scooter was parked perpendicularly across the pavement outside our house.  Which would have been extremely convenient if we'd wanted to use it rather than walk past it.)