Author Topic: BCM (and other classic brevets) record  (Read 7602 times)

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #100 on: 24 April, 2021, 02:51:40 pm »

You seem to be saying it can’t be a proper race if a girl one it. As you increase the “ultraness” of events gender differences decrease. Look at Elizabeth Barnes in ultra running.

That's exactly what I am not saying, but nice try  :thumbsup:

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #101 on: 24 April, 2021, 02:52:40 pm »
Navigation, mapping, self sufficiency are obvious differences... the "engine" required is probably very different, the fact that Fiona won with a large margin means you don't need an FTP > 5 W/kg in TCR, but it's probably the very minimum you need to win a 24 TT (guessing here).

Noooooooo. W/kg is generally derived from FTP which is how much power you can put out by killing yourself in an hour.

Unsurprisingly, the longer the event, the less relevant that particular metric is, but that doesn't mean winning isn't largely dependent on how much power you can put out on average over the period of the race. Fiona won by being a very fast bike rider.

I agree...

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #102 on: 24 April, 2021, 10:00:05 pm »

The fact that the competition itself is not split by gender shows you that it's a very different event from time trialling, where it would be unthinkable.

So you don't believe that a woman could ever beat the fastest man in a national championship time trial...?

What if she gave him a jelly baby as she passed?

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #103 on: 25 April, 2021, 07:35:19 am »

The fact that the competition itself is not split by gender shows you that it's a very different event from time trialling, where it would be unthinkable.

So you don't believe that a woman could ever beat the fastest man in a national championship time trial...?

What if she gave him a jelly baby as she passed?

Going through recent past results

2019  M 544  W 478
2018  M 532   W 445
2017  M 530  W 456

So, no... I don't... there's currently a 60-80 miles gap, which is quite big.

That said, if you look at TCR, but also ultra running, the gap narrows as the distance increases and becomes zero if the distance is long enough... basically it means that power becomes secondary to other skills, where men and women are equal, or more likely where women are better than men.

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #104 on: 25 April, 2021, 08:55:02 am »
There's nothing wrong with not knowing much about a subject, until you try to pretend you are some sort of expert and make sweeping statements which are wrong because you lack the necessary knowledge on which to base them.

Look up Beryl Burton's women's 12-hour record.



Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #105 on: 25 April, 2021, 09:00:40 am »
And Bridget Boon’s outright 24hr win.

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #106 on: 25 April, 2021, 09:26:46 am »
That said, if you look at TCR, but also ultra running, the gap narrows as the distance increases and becomes zero if the distance is long enough... basically it means that power becomes secondary to other skills, where men and women are equal, or more likely where women are better than men.

"If a woman won it can't have been about who can ride a bike fastest"

AFAIK ultrarunning is typically done on marked courses with full TLC and often prescribed kit. It is entirely about who can cover the course fastest.

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #107 on: 25 April, 2021, 09:56:07 am »
Aren't there studies that show women are better at long sustained power output even if (on average, population Vs individual) their raw short term power is lower?

Miles cycled 2014 = 3551.5 (Target 7300 :()
Miles cycled 2013 = 6141.4
Miles cycled 2012 = 4038.1

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #108 on: 25 April, 2021, 10:46:56 am »
There's nothing wrong with not knowing much about a subject, until you try to pretend you are some sort of expert and make sweeping statements which are wrong because you lack the necessary knowledge on which to base them.

Look up Beryl Burton's women's 12-hour record.

I am very aware and please don't underestimate my knowledge, which might even be deeper than yours.
We are talking the 1960s... it was a very different reality. Of course Beryl was extraordinary and I am aware her 12 h record was faster than the men's, but it's also true that it was a time when male talents were lured into the much more profitable continental racing scene and it could well be that the UK male scene was left starved of talent. I am not aware of a continental female racing scene luring in UK talent at the time, but I might be wrong.

That obviously doesn't detract anything from her incredible achievements...

But we are now in 2021 and do you see this happening again any time soon? A female athlete appearing and beating her opponents by 60 miles in a 24h TT?

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #109 on: 25 April, 2021, 10:54:59 am »

"If a woman won it can't have been about who can ride a bike fastest"


Of course.

In a 10 days event, there will be time on the bike and time off the bike... if you can minimise the time off the bike, then you are going to have a quicker time.
That's a different skill from mashing a big gear at 25 mph, I hope we agree on this much.

I think (and going back to the original topic) you are looking at it from an Audax perspective. In other words, I seem to recall I did the BCM in 33 hours, but I slept 6 or 7 hours in Dolgellau. Someone else might have done in 30 without sleep, who is the faster?
Of course, they finished first, but that's due to a different set of skills, like that of being able and to go on without sleep and having the confidence to navigate the course at night.
Now, on a shorter course, like a 300, I would have probably be the one finishing 3 hours ahead...
Different skillsets for different distances... and of course Audax is not a race...  ;D

Davef

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #110 on: 25 April, 2021, 11:16:46 am »

"If a woman won it can't have been about who can ride a bike fastest"


Of course.

In a 10 days event, there will be time on the bike and time off the bike... if you can minimise the time off the bike, then you are going to have a quicker time.
That's a different skill from mashing a big gear at 25 mph, I hope we agree on this much.

I think (and going back to the original topic) you are looking at it from an Audax perspective. In other words, I seem to recall I did the BCM in 33 hours, but I slept 6 or 7 hours in Dolgellau. Someone else might have done in 30 without sleep, who is the faster?
Of course, they finished first, but that's due to a different set of skills, like that of being able and to go on without sleep and having the confidence to navigate the course at night.
Now, on a shorter course, like a 300, I would have probably be the one finishing 3 hours ahead...
Different skillsets for different distances... and of course Audax is not a race...  ;D
I can run a 4 minute mile. Obviously not all in one go. Of course you have to include breaks, so the person that finished 3 hours ahead of you was faster.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #111 on: 25 April, 2021, 11:27:50 am »
Aren't there studies that show women are better at long sustained power output even if (on average, population Vs individual) their raw short term power is lower?

The xperimental evidence is that it's true, but only as you go for extra long.

Hour record for men is 55 km, for women is 46.
The difference is roughly 20%. If you look at the National 24, then the difference is again roughly 20%. End to End, 44 hours Vs 52, again roughly 20%.

Running is quite a bit closer, always around 10%, both at 100 mt and at the marathon.

Iron man, again only 10%  7:35 Vs 8:18

The paths really converge in ultra distance, where gender doesn't seem to matter much


Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #112 on: 25 April, 2021, 11:32:36 am »

"If a woman won it can't have been about who can ride a bike fastest"


Of course.

In a 10 days event, there will be time on the bike and time off the bike... if you can minimise the time off the bike, then you are going to have a quicker time.
That's a different skill from mashing a big gear at 25 mph, I hope we agree on this much.

I think (and going back to the original topic) you are looking at it from an Audax perspective. In other words, I seem to recall I did the BCM in 33 hours, but I slept 6 or 7 hours in Dolgellau. Someone else might have done in 30 without sleep, who is the faster?
Of course, they finished first, but that's due to a different set of skills, like that of being able and to go on without sleep and having the confidence to navigate the course at night.
Now, on a shorter course, like a 300, I would have probably be the one finishing 3 hours ahead...
Different skillsets for different distances... and of course Audax is not a race...  ;D
I can run a 4 minute mile. Obviously not all in one go. Of course you have to include breaks, so the person that finished 3 hours ahead of you was faster.

But that's point isn't it...
The skill is not speed on the bike, but how long you can keep pedalling before you need a substantial break. That's what I have been trying to say for the past 2 pages.
But when it comes to shorter events, like a 24 TT, or in my Audax case a 300, then the substantial break is no longer required, hence the speed on the bike becomes the dominant factor.

I don't know how much more clear I need to be that in order to win a 24 TT you need to pedal hard, whereas in order to win a multi day unsupported event, you need to be good at many things, including pedalling hard, but other factors come into play... and as it happens these factors are not gender specific

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #113 on: 25 April, 2021, 11:52:04 am »
Do you have anything to back up your assertion that women who beat men at endurance events rode/ran slower but took shorter breaks? Because it's the first I've heard.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #114 on: 25 April, 2021, 12:06:15 pm »
Do you have anything to back up your assertion that women who beat men at endurance events rode/ran slower but took shorter breaks? Because it's the first I've heard.

We would need a like for like Strava thingy... to show the moving speed, I guess...
It would also be interesting to look at how the speed drops throughout the event... does it drop in the same way or women are better at holding it...

You might think I am biased and sexist or whatever, but it's quite hard to see moving speed being the same across genders, simply because it's not the case in any other bicycle race

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #115 on: 25 April, 2021, 12:10:25 pm »

I can run a 4 minute mile. Obviously not all in one go. Of course you have to include breaks, so the person that finished 3 hours ahead of you was faster.

Thinking again, your comparison is a bit silly, as obviously Roger Bannister would have thrashed you over any distance, no matter how much you break the mile down...

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #116 on: 25 April, 2021, 12:29:25 pm »
Interesting article on the topic and no paywall, it seems to agree with much of what I said above

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jan/03/female-ultra-athletes-leading-field-women-less-ego

Davef

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #117 on: 25 April, 2021, 12:32:14 pm »
I don't know how much more clear I need to be that in order to win a 24 TT you need to pedal hard, whereas in order to win a multi day unsupported event, you need to be good at many things, including pedalling hard, but other factors come into play... and as it happens these factors are not gender specific
It is great that you are sharing your experience of these events. Thank you.

Davef

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #118 on: 25 April, 2021, 12:33:13 pm »

I can run a 4 minute mile. Obviously not all in one go. Of course you have to include breaks, so the person that finished 3 hours ahead of you was faster.

Thinking again, your comparison is a bit silly, as obviously Roger Bannister would have thrashed you over any distance, no matter how much you break the mile down...
Yes. That was the point.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #119 on: 25 April, 2021, 12:38:09 pm »
I don't know how much more clear I need to be that in order to win a 24 TT you need to pedal hard, whereas in order to win a multi day unsupported event, you need to be good at many things, including pedalling hard, but other factors come into play... and as it happens these factors are not gender specific
It is great that you are sharing your experience of these events. Thank you.

You are welcome...
Some of the best and most experienced organisers of events in AUK, don't actually ride Audax events... crazy how you can be knowledgeable about something without first hand experience...

Anyway, read the article I linked above, it's quite interesting

Davef

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #120 on: 25 April, 2021, 12:59:17 pm »
I don't know how much more clear I need to be that in order to win a 24 TT you need to pedal hard, whereas in order to win a multi day unsupported event, you need to be good at many things, including pedalling hard, but other factors come into play... and as it happens these factors are not gender specific
It is great that you are sharing your experience of these events. Thank you.

You are welcome...
Some of the best and most experienced organisers of events in AUK, don't actually ride Audax events... crazy how you can be knowledgeable about something without first hand experience...

Anyway, read the article I linked above, it's quite interesting
The article you linked to is agreeing with what everyone else is saying. Over shorter distances men are faster. When you get to ultra distances running, swimming, cycling, women are starting to beat men outright (by going faster, at faster average speeds).

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #121 on: 25 April, 2021, 01:12:58 pm »
yes...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #122 on: 25 April, 2021, 01:37:37 pm »
The article you linked to is agreeing with what everyone else is saying. Over shorter distances men are faster. When you get to ultra distances running, swimming, cycling, women are starting to beat men outright (by going faster, at faster average speeds).

And in at least one case, doing off the bike things men will never have to do, such as expressing breast milk for their young child, as is the case of Jasmijn Paris on the spine race.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #123 on: 25 April, 2021, 01:47:21 pm »
Right...

I guess we are no wiser on whether there is an unofficial BCM record and I am no wiser of why some in 2018 wanted to "go for the record" if there isn't one.

We can even call it a day now, before we move into the benefits of breast feeding

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #124 on: 25 April, 2021, 04:41:38 pm »
I don't know how much more clear I need to be that in order to win a 24 TT you need to pedal hard, whereas in order to win a multi day unsupported event, you need to be good at many things, including pedalling hard, but other factors come into play... and as it happens these factors are not gender specific
It is great that you are sharing your experience of these events. Thank you.
You are welcome...
Some of the best and most experienced organisers of events in AUK, don't actually ride Audax events... crazy how you can be knowledgeable about something without first hand experience...
I appreciate that others might accuse me of feeding the 'roll, but.
I'm all in favour of clear assertions and reckon that when based on experience, they're well worth listening to.
Had you any particular organisers in mind in the Venn diagram intersection select set of "best and most experienced" and "haven't actually ridden Audax events"? Give them your plaudits, safe in the knowledge that the hundred plus excluded excellent Audax UK organisers will not be offended (because they've all ridden randonnees: many, many of them).