Author Topic: BCM (and other classic brevets) record  (Read 15301 times)

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #125 on: 26 April, 2021, 08:18:28 am »
In the late 70's and early 80's I split my season between short distance TT's and Audax and rode the West Pennine's NW Passage 200k every year (February) as base training and usually completed it in under 8-hours.  I can clearly remember riding with some top roadman from Manchester Wheelers over the last 50-60k (the hilly part) and doing more than my fair share on the front and it was me that was riding the Dawes super galaxy (steel) bike compared to the other guy's much lighter road bike.  We finished first (and second) and un-beknown to us, we were being chased by a group containing Mandy Jones (later to become World Road Race Champion), Ian Greenhalgh and others that came in about half an hour behind us.  Whilst this did set me up to build some speed training, I could never do any good in longer distance events (100's) even though I went training with Ian Cammish one time.

This has still been the case over the last few years of the running of the event with some very fast east lancs road riders still riding it to get back as quickly as possible .
It was I believe derived from a reliability ride into a Audax and the pie and peas are very nice weather you are first or last back and as someone said as long as you don’t boast who cares because you might be first back now but one day if your lucky enough and live long enough you might be last .... and still get the pie and peas .
I always wanted to do a 12-hour and thought that the speed from shorter distance time trials together with some fast 200k and 300k events would be ideal, but sadly it was never to be.

arabella

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Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #126 on: 26 April, 2021, 12:58:25 pm »

If you are after more of a challenge, and aren't interested in longer rides (why not?  wrong sort of challenge?) then think about how your bike would compare with what was around when audax started.  Most likely it weighs less.  So get a heavier bike or add a brick to your saddlebag (there are other anti-weight-weeny options I'm sure).  Or have fewer and more widely spaced gears (or, if you are on fixed, get a longer/lower gear).  I've been reliably informed that there is a fairly high correlation between shininess/weight-weeniness (or not) and how early folks arrive at a control. 
You will then have bragging rights about being closer to audax roots.


Distance brings a different set of skills, which I am not interested in... like how to avoid saddle sores, how to avoid your hands going numb, how to avoid collapsing at the side of the road due to sleep deprivation, how to avoid constipation, how to force feed yourself when you can no longer eat, how to wipe your bum when you have to go in the wild... It's all stuff that has little to do with riding a bike hard. I found a 600 was long enough, if not too long already. For example, a very fast 24 hour time triallist, is unlikely to be also at the very top end of a Transcontinental Race an viceversa, just completely different skillsets within the same "long distance cycling" label.

I have a 1980 bike, it's pretty much the same ride as my carbon bike, except I have slightly bigger gears. I think my PB on a 10 mile TT is very close. I don't think that going back further and learning to ride an ordinary would satisfy my hunger for challenge to be honest. Besides, old bikes bring in problems that you can no longer fix, due to parts being unavailable.

Thanks.  From your sample size of 1, I can finally stop wondering whether I'd ever finish sooner if my bike weighed less than it does (current weight is about 1/3 of me iirc) (Do I really care - only in as much as being full value occasionally makes getting home afterwards err, interesting at times (though more related to public transport availability than anything else, and aligning start times (& therefore finishing times) with public transport options has been discussed elsewhere) (OT ramble cont. p96).

My thought had been that older bikes (frames) tend to be heavier etc., even with modern components, which means a lower overall speed for the same effort/input; but if you're saying you expect that in the same way your 10 mile TT PB was similar regardless of bike, then your time on a 200/300 would be the same regardless of bike, then maybe not.  Though I'd love to know why.

Anyway, it sounds like you answered your own question: no-one's paid enough attention for there to be any info on who took how long to finish an event that no-one was racing to finish (well, not officially ... ), nor how much of that was moving and how much wasn't.
 
Which leads me to suggest: if you are fast enough to spend more time off the bike than many, would you find longer rides less of the wrong sort of challenge if you paced yourself to finish later (yet still within audax times): same riding time, more stopped time
less % time in the saddle reducing opportunities for saddle sores (not sitting on the saddle and also more time to spend on personal care etc of the nether regions)
less % time in the saddle reducing opportunities for numb hands (presumably trapped nerve so you can spend time massaging your wrists/not having weight on them etc)
(I assume for the above 2 you've already looked at your riding position, I've heard that there's a difference in riding position between racing and audax/touring)
less % time in the saddle meaning you spend time sleeping and don't end up sleep deprived
etc.
Any fool can admire a mountain.  It takes real discernment to appreciate the fens.

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #127 on: 26 April, 2021, 01:57:53 pm »
There's nothing wrong with not knowing much about a subject, until you try to pretend you are some sort of expert and make sweeping statements which are wrong because you lack the necessary knowledge on which to base them.

Look up Beryl Burton's women's 12-hour record.

And, looking at current records - for greatest distance cycled in a calendar year:

Kurt Searvogel - 76076 miles
Amanda Coker - 86537 miles
Eddington Numbers 130 (imperial), 183 (metric) 574 (furlongs)  116 (nautical miles)

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #128 on: 26 April, 2021, 01:59:16 pm »

If you are after more of a challenge, and aren't interested in longer rides (why not?  wrong sort of challenge?) then think about how your bike would compare with what was around when audax started.  Most likely it weighs less.  So get a heavier bike or add a brick to your saddlebag (there are other anti-weight-weeny options I'm sure).  Or have fewer and more widely spaced gears (or, if you are on fixed, get a longer/lower gear).  I've been reliably informed that there is a fairly high correlation between shininess/weight-weeniness (or not) and how early folks arrive at a control. 
You will then have bragging rights about being closer to audax roots.


Distance brings a different set of skills, which I am not interested in... like how to avoid saddle sores, how to avoid your hands going numb, how to avoid collapsing at the side of the road due to sleep deprivation, how to avoid constipation, how to force feed yourself when you can no longer eat, how to wipe your bum when you have to go in the wild... It's all stuff that has little to do with riding a bike hard. I found a 600 was long enough, if not too long already. For example, a very fast 24 hour time triallist, is unlikely to be also at the very top end of a Transcontinental Race an viceversa, just completely different skillsets within the same "long distance cycling" label.

I have a 1980 bike, it's pretty much the same ride as my carbon bike, except I have slightly bigger gears. I think my PB on a 10 mile TT is very close. I don't think that going back further and learning to ride an ordinary would satisfy my hunger for challenge to be honest. Besides, old bikes bring in problems that you can no longer fix, due to parts being unavailable.

Thanks.  From your sample size of 1, I can finally stop wondering whether I'd ever finish sooner if my bike weighed less than it does (current weight is about 1/3 of me iirc) (Do I really care - only in as much as being full value occasionally makes getting home afterwards err, interesting at times (though more related to public transport availability than anything else, and aligning start times (& therefore finishing times) with public transport options has been discussed elsewhere) (OT ramble cont. p96).

My thought had been that older bikes (frames) tend to be heavier etc., even with modern components, which means a lower overall speed for the same effort/input; but if you're saying you expect that in the same way your 10 mile TT PB was similar regardless of bike, then your time on a 200/300 would be the same regardless of bike, then maybe not.  Though I'd love to know why.

Anyway, it sounds like you answered your own question: no-one's paid enough attention for there to be any info on who took how long to finish an event that no-one was racing to finish (well, not officially ... ), nor how much of that was moving and how much wasn't.
 
Which leads me to suggest: if you are fast enough to spend more time off the bike than many, would you find longer rides less of the wrong sort of challenge if you paced yourself to finish later (yet still within audax times): same riding time, more stopped time
less % time in the saddle reducing opportunities for saddle sores (not sitting on the saddle and also more time to spend on personal care etc of the nether regions)
less % time in the saddle reducing opportunities for numb hands (presumably trapped nerve so you can spend time massaging your wrists/not having weight on them etc)
(I assume for the above 2 you've already looked at your riding position, I've heard that there's a difference in riding position between racing and audax/touring)
less % time in the saddle meaning you spend time sleeping and don't end up sleep deprived
etc.

Re. old bikes... weight difference is not that much if comparing like for like. A modern carbon road bike is probably around 8 Kg and my 1980 road bike is around 9.5, it could be lighter if the wheels were built with 28 light spokes instead of 36 spaghetti. Merckx was already using 28 spokes, so nothing new there.
Of course if by old you mean a rusty BSO found in a skip, that's a different story. Even modern BSO that you can buy at Halfords for 300 quid tend to be heavy and slow.
Technological advancements have brought great speed in time trialling, but regular road bikes are not a lot faster. Average speed for road races haven't changed since the 90s.

Re. Audax... I don't know. I don't like wasting time and faffing, so the idea of riding fast and then lounge around at controls goes against my instinct. The events that I like (or used to like, as I haven't done one in almost 2 years) avoid compulsory cafe' stops, which are time sinks and just make my legs seize...
For shorter events like BP and flat BR200, ideally I'd like a system where I don't have to bother getting off the bike at all... whether that is GPS validation or some kind of app.
I once did a BP 135 that had 3 controls and 4 info... I lost the will to live and decided to press on after the first control. I then didn't hand in the card for validation.


Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #129 on: 26 April, 2021, 02:13:20 pm »
Geriatricdolan. So who are these amazing orgainsers who do not actually ride?

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #130 on: 26 April, 2021, 02:38:02 pm »
Geriatricdolan. So who are these amazing orgainsers who do not actually ride?

Many... and you know who they are

... and if you read, I said "do not ride audax" which doesn't mean they never rode Audax. But times change, roads change, navigation systems change, attitude of people change, "customers" change, traffic change... some routes are no longer viable... some controls no longer exist.

It's a different conversation though... the point I was trying to make is that you can have an understanding of an event even without actually doing it yourself... there is plenty of information around, good quality information, from reliable sources... you can become an expert in coins without ever owning one... we live in the age of information and being accused of not being credible because you've never done it yourself, just shows how backwards and inwards some people are.
I've never climbed Everest, but I've read enough literature about it, to have an understanding of what the challenge is... probably more than some folks who never read anything about it and paid $ 50,000 to be guided up the mountain.

If you don't think that's possible, then I don't know what the fuck we are doing here...

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #131 on: 26 April, 2021, 02:45:45 pm »
Ah, we are on to armchair experts. Excellent  ;D

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #132 on: 26 April, 2021, 02:57:05 pm »
Ah, we are on to armchair experts. Excellent  ;D

I can give you some pretty good advice on how to dismantle a Vision rear hub... I've never done it myself, but I have done other hubs, so I have an understanding of the process...

Or if you prefer you can wait until someone who has done it comes along... it might well be that his advice is worse than mine though...

Or viceversa

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #133 on: 26 April, 2021, 03:11:53 pm »
My thought had been that older bikes (frames) tend to be heavier etc., even with modern components, which means a lower overall speed for the same effort/input; but if you're saying you expect that in the same way your 10 mile TT PB was similar regardless of bike, then your time on a 200/300 would be the same regardless of bike, then maybe not.  Though I'd love to know why.

Even at full value speeds, the vast majority of energy on a typical bike ride* is spent combatting aero drag, which is independent of weight, and the vast majority of drag comes from the rider not the bike.

A lot of the speed benefit of a light bike is placebo.

(* i.e. not a hill climb)

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #134 on: 26 April, 2021, 04:30:01 pm »
Ah, we are on to armchair experts. Excellent  ;D

I can give you some pretty good advice on how to dismantle a Vision rear hub... I've never done it myself, but I have done other hubs, so I have an understanding of the process...

Or if you prefer you can wait until someone who has done it comes along... it might well be that his advice is worse than mine though...

Or viceversa

How do Vision rear hubs differ from other makes / models of hubs when it comes to disassembly?

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #135 on: 26 April, 2021, 04:33:50 pm »
Ah, we are on to armchair experts. Excellent  ;D

I can give you some pretty good advice on how to dismantle a Vision rear hub... I've never done it myself, but I have done other hubs, so I have an understanding of the process...

Or if you prefer you can wait until someone who has done it comes along... it might well be that his advice is worse than mine though...

Or viceversa

How do Vision rear hubs differ from other makes / models of hubs when it comes to disassembly?

Depends which Vision..., say the Team 35 (not SL)
They use a 12 mm Allen key to remove the freehub instead of an 11... you need to remove the DS bearing to access the allen key slot, they use different bearing sizes from other hubs, they don't have a way to preload the bearings...


Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #136 on: 26 April, 2021, 04:35:31 pm »
I am sorry but I am not erudite like wot u r so could you give us names?

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #137 on: 26 April, 2021, 04:39:20 pm »
Ah, we are on to armchair experts. Excellent  ;D

I can give you some pretty good advice on how to dismantle a Vision rear hub... I've never done it myself, but I have done other hubs, so I have an understanding of the process...

Or if you prefer you can wait until someone who has done it comes along... it might well be that his advice is worse than mine though...

Or viceversa

How do Vision rear hubs differ from other makes / models of hubs when it comes to disassembly?

Depends which Vision..., say the Team 35 (not SL)
They use a 12 mm Allen key to remove the freehub instead of an 11... you need to remove the DS bearing to access the allen key slot, they use different bearing sizes from other hubs, they don't have a way to preload the bearings...

Sounds straightforward.  What are the major problems you might encounter and what are the possible solutions?   

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #138 on: 26 April, 2021, 05:02:58 pm »
I am sorry but I am not erudite like wot u r so could you give us names?

Surely you have something better to do...

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #139 on: 26 April, 2021, 05:10:45 pm »
YACF - Irony-free since 2002

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #140 on: 26 April, 2021, 05:40:22 pm »
I am sorry but I am not erudite like wot u r so could you give us names?

Surely you have something better to do...
Not really.  I am off work with lurgy and feeding the troll is quite funny.  never really done it before but I can see the enjoyment.  Bit like talking to scammers about Microsoft when sat at an iMac! 

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #141 on: 26 April, 2021, 06:01:55 pm »
The article you linked to is agreeing with what everyone else is saying. Over shorter distances men are faster. When you get to ultra distances running, swimming, cycling, women are starting to beat men outright (by going faster, at faster average speeds).

And in at least one case, doing off the bike things men will never have to do, such as expressing breast milk for their young child, as is the case of Jasmijn Paris on the spine race.

J

Oh FFS. She was not breast feeding her child, or even expressing breast milk in order to feed her child. She was expressing breast milk because she needed to for her own comfort because she hadn't quite weaned the child before the race started, so she was still producing milk, and just stopping would have been uncomfortable and bad.

I'm not denying her achievement for one moment, but this thing about her expressing milk for her child simply isn't true.

Jasmin held the outright record for the Ramsay round for a while. Then she was part of the support crew that helped one of her club-mates to take a minute off the record. Then last summer another man went and took an hour off it...

Davef

BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #142 on: 26 April, 2021, 09:38:47 pm »


Oh FFS. She was not breast feeding her child, or even expressing breast milk in order to feed her child. She was expressing breast milk because she needed to for her own comfort because she hadn't quite weaned the child before the race started, so she was still producing milk, and just stopping would have been uncomfortable and bad.

I'm not denying her achievement for one moment, but this thing about her expressing milk for her child simply isn't true.

However she says ...
Quote
I had thought I would have stopped breast feeding by this point and tried when Rowan was one, but over Christmas she got two viruses and I had to go back to feeding her multiple times throughout the night to soothe her

Unless you can corroborate your inside knowledge, I would take the mother’s word as to why she was expressing milk.

quixoticgeek

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Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #143 on: 26 April, 2021, 09:57:08 pm »
The article you linked to is agreeing with what everyone else is saying. Over shorter distances men are faster. When you get to ultra distances running, swimming, cycling, women are starting to beat men outright (by going faster, at faster average speeds).

And in at least one case, doing off the bike things men will never have to do, such as expressing breast milk for their young child, as is the case of Jasmijn Paris on the spine race.

J

Oh FFS. She was not breast feeding her child, or even expressing breast milk in order to feed her child. She was expressing breast milk because she needed to for her own comfort because she hadn't quite weaned the child before the race started, so she was still producing milk, and just stopping would have been uncomfortable and bad.

I'm not denying her achievement for one moment, but this thing about her expressing milk for her child simply isn't true.

Jasmin held the outright record for the Ramsay round for a while. Then she was part of the support crew that helped one of her club-mates to take a minute off the record. Then last summer another man went and took an hour off it...

I don't know enough to question either way. However the point remains, men do not have to pause mid race to express breast milk, whether to feed their child, or just for comfort purposes...

J
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Beer, bikes, and backpacking
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Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #144 on: 26 April, 2021, 10:55:55 pm »

Sounds straightforward.  What are the major problems you might encounter and what are the possible solutions?
[/quote]

Please please stop taking the p*ss and answer the poor mans question .. who holds the record in what time .. I know i was close many years ago ..or was that just fantasy as I slept under the tables at Kings
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

cygnet

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Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #145 on: 26 April, 2021, 11:04:35 pm »
Or we could start questioning what makes a "classic" Audax, and who decides that.

Is it as simple as naming it the BCM Classic? (Worked for the Surrey-London in the pro ranks.)

Is the BCM (Classic) the "classic" route, or is it the BCM (Scenic)?
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick

Davef

BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #146 on: 27 April, 2021, 06:41:13 am »
As we seem to be drifting back on topic, a couple of years ago, a youth on a train - his mountain bike in the one other bike slot - mentioned that he was thinking of getting a road bike so that he could do the Bryan Chapman in 24 hours. He had never heard the term audax.

I believe Lonely Planet’s Epic bike rides of the world might be responsible.

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #147 on: 27 April, 2021, 08:58:07 am »
The article you linked to is agreeing with what everyone else is saying. Over shorter distances men are faster. When you get to ultra distances running, swimming, cycling, women are starting to beat men outright (by going faster, at faster average speeds).

And in at least one case, doing off the bike things men will never have to do, such as expressing breast milk for their young child, as is the case of Jasmijn Paris on the spine race.

J

Oh FFS. She was not breast feeding her child, or even expressing breast milk in order to feed her child. She was expressing breast milk because she needed to for her own comfort because she hadn't quite weaned the child before the race started, so she was still producing milk, and just stopping would have been uncomfortable and bad.

I'm not denying her achievement for one moment, but this thing about her expressing milk for her child simply isn't true.

Jasmin held the outright record for the Ramsay round for a while. Then she was part of the support crew that helped one of her club-mates to take a minute off the record. Then last summer another man went and took an hour off it...

Having posted the above, I realised that QG had merely been quoting the article she'd linked to, so here are Jasmin's own words on the subject, from http://jasminfellrunner.blogspot.com/2020/01/spine-race.html :
Quote
Of a greater concern to me was the thought of leaving my family for up to a week, in particular because - in spite of my intention for her to be weaned by January – Rowan was still breastfeeding at regular intervals as the race day approached. Knowing that I didn’t want to force the matter (at 13 months she no longer really needed breastmilk and rarely asked for it when I wasn’t there, but it was an important part of our relationship), I made sure there was a sufficient supply of frozen expressed breast milk in the freezer to cover my absence, and resigned myself to pumping at checkpoints (mastitis on the Spine was the last thing I needed).

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #148 on: 27 April, 2021, 09:30:00 am »

Sounds straightforward.  What are the major problems you might encounter and what are the possible solutions?

Please please stop taking the p*ss and answer the poor mans question .. who holds the record in what time .. I know i was close many years ago ..or was that just fantasy as I slept under the tables at Kings
[/quote]

I reached Menai at just after 6pm one year, when the weather and my legs were good and I was on my fast bike.  I was in a group of 4.  I took the option of a sleep at Kings on the way back and finished in a civilised time, but I believe the first rider back was home at about 11am, which would have been 29 hours.  That was the earliest finish in any of the BCMs I rode.  That would have been the Classic route.  Anyone who could do BCM in 24 hours, self-supported, over the hills, would be capable of 475+ in a 24 hour TT and most likely would be competing for a podium position.
Eddington Numbers 130 (imperial), 183 (metric) 574 (furlongs)  116 (nautical miles)

Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #149 on: 27 April, 2021, 10:57:23 am »
Come on guys .. 600kms .. 30kph max allowed audax average  speed .. so 20 hours is theoretically possible.
Surely I had to slow down as I passed Tintern Abbey to be  over the 20 hours minimum   ....  well I can dream !!!!
What a bizarre pointless thread .
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!