The unpleasant bike shopping experience and non female friendly bike fit would affect female triathletes too but does not seem to deter them as much.
And it does, but generally you're on the bike for less time, so it's less of a problem if it doesn't fit so great.
I did think about what people have said about equality of events and media coverage. It is true professional triathlon events are on same day, same distance and equal tv coverage. The most exciting to watch is the mixed super sprint relay which hopefully GB should win at Tokyo, but I am not convinced many people see tri on tv.
I've never watched Triathlon on TV except for a couple of GCN documentaries.
^^^^ This (speaking as a non-female humanoid). Although there are also quite a few male cyclos for whom the most essential part of the repair kit is the mobile phone to ring the wife/partner to be rescued when they break down! (and quite a few ladies who are very competent fixing their bikes when they need to, even following instructions when it's the first time - three of them happen to be my daughters!)
Yep, there are a lot of people who rely on phoning someone if their bike breaks. And generally if you have someone willing to help, there's nothing intrinsically harmful in that. Unfortunately not everyone is lucky enough for that. If I have a problem on my bike, there is one person and only one person who is getting me out of that, Me. Largely because so few of my friends have cars.
This is going to sound really petty, but you may want to think about the "non-female humanoid" description. Within TERF's there's a dog whistle term used by many which is "Adult human female". When you see that in someone's Bio on social media, they are a TERF. I'm sure you are not one, and I'm sure you don't want to be accidentally tarred with the brush of such things. But I digress
Any men, or just men guilty of sexism?
Do I get to escape your scorn by not doing sexist behaviour, or am I always going to be a problem simply by being male?
I read through your list of sexist behaviours thinking "well I don't do that", "nor that", "I don't do that either".
I get that the idea behind a women only audax might be simply that the only way to eliminate sexist men might be to eliminate all men, with the well-meaning intention of having a sexism-free event, but I think the point that guilt should stem from "doing" not from "being" needs to be made. My hope is that you accept that.
So earlier I made a short reply to this post. It was flippant, and rushed, as I was working and didn't have time for a full essay. Now you can have the essay.
When ever there is a big media stink because some man has done something horrible (Sarah Everard being a recent case), women step forward to share their similar experiences. A collective mourning and sharing of trauma. And then the MRAs come forward. People start replying #NotAllMen. And yes, it is true. Not all men are rapists. Not all men are murders, not all men are sexist shitbags. But, you know what, there's a fucking huge number of them that are. It's so fucking common there's a wikipedia page for it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NotAllMenI should probably declare at this point. I am not anti men. Hell some of my best friends are men*. I've even been engaged to a man. The problem is. You know all those micro aggressions and shit experiences I detailed up thread? All of them are from men. I don't want to tar a whole gender with a bloody great big brush, but when you get to my age, and you have spent your life on the receiving end of shit behaviour that is universally from one group, you get pretty fucking jaded.
How do I know that the men who turn up to an event are going to be nice? How do I know that they aren't going to be sexist? Cos right up to the moment it happens, they appear like normal nice people. So given the option of an event that is just women, I'll take it. I'll feel safer. I'll feel more relaxed.
The experiences I detailed above are just those I've had in the context of cycling. It's important to remember that women are getting just as much crap in their every day lives. I recommend every man here go have a long read of the every day sexism project. See what it is we have to put up with every fucking day.
https://everydaysexism.com/When they try to tell you how to fix a mechanical, even tho you are a perfectly competent mechanic who built the bike you're riding, as well as doing the occasional shift in a bike shop.
That's just plain bad manners. (Offering advice un-asked for.) The sexism is in your mind.
Yes it is bad manners.
But you know what "It's all in your mind". There's a term for that. Gaslighting (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting). Saying "You're imagining it", or "you're the one making it sexist". That doesn't reassure, that doesn't make women feel welcome. That pushes away. Cos when you hear it enough, you start to believe it. If it is all in my mind, maybe the solution is for me to remove myself from the public space. I'll just stay at home. Won't be a problem there.
I have a lot of respect for you as a person. I am really disappointed to see this comment from you.
An all-female event (in a context such as this where segregation is not the norm) seems discriminatory to me, and, if it were an Audax UK event, would contravene the Regulations (8.2 "AUK events are open to all cyclists ...")
Yep. It's an interesting one within law too in many places. Cos ultimately positive discrimination is still discrimination. It's a really tough line to navigate.
So do you have a problem with that then? It is all men, then, as far as you're concerned? OK. As long as we know where we stand. 
Until proven that I can trust them. Yes. Because I can't tell, when the strange man walks up to me, is he just going to ask for directions? or is he about to want something more. Your hands form a fist. The fight or flight response is triggered. You're looking for the exits. Where is safe, what can I do. Because, YOU DO NOT KNOW. Hollywood and TV would have us believe that you can tell what a sexist shit looks like, you can spot them. But you know what. The only way you know that the person who is approaching you isn't going to attack you, is because you have walked away from the encounter unscathed.
https://www.upworthy.com/man-hitting-on-teen-shows-what-women-experienceThis video did the rounds recently. She thought the guy wanted to take the chair away, he sits down, interrupts her life, and starts hitting on her. This is not a one off, many women experience it. I've had it, on trains, in cafes, in bars.
I am really sorry now that I started this thread. That is pretty rare.
Is it better to split the original announcement from the resulting discussion or lock it or delete it or what?
I'm sorry that women sharing their experiences makes you feel bad.
Perhaps we can split it off to POBI...
nah, sorry, don't need to bother from my perspective, sorry to drag it off line. Just fell into the trap as I often do of thinking I could get somewhere or get something across .... if QG replies and I feel the need to come back on it I'll do it via PM, was actually in two minds whether to anyway.
yeah, about that. Don't. It's fucking creepy. Don't PM. Either reply in the thread, or keep your thoughts to yourself.
I'd imagine some of the women most attracted to the idea of a women-only cycling event would be from conservative Muslim, Hindu or "similar" (this list is far from exhaustive) backgrounds, making it a good way to give a taste of long-distance cycling to people who feel excluded on a number of fronts.
Possibly, there is a women of colour cycling group, which is rather awesome. It was great to see that in Rapha's women's event thing a few months back they had a Hijab wearing woman in the mix. For a lot of people seeing someone who looks like them doing something can be all it takes to realise that maybe they can play too.
I also tried to imagine what would happen if, say, French Tandem, BenT and I wanted to start playing netball or maybe get into flower arranging.
the men's game is not recognised by the International Netball Federation (INF), and there is no England national seven-a-side team.
Time to start one... Sexism works both ways.
This reminds me a little of the Gymphobics women only gyms that have popped up in a number of places around here. My initial response was ‘is that actually legal?’ and the associated male bollox baggage, through to an understanding of why they exist. As a middle aged white educated male I gave up worrying about what others thought about my body a long time ago, but I can understand why women would want to avoid the letching and judgement of a gym full of testosteroned up blokes. I don’t think we’re nearly as discreet as we think we are in either behaviour. And that’s just the passive behaviours, there are far too many men who think it ok to show a ‘little lady’ how she should do something ‘properly’.
Yep, and it's even worse for fat women. I've seen and heard far to many people saying things like "Ugh, why are there fat people at the gym?"... If I actually used gym's, I would look at a women's only one.
My bold. What's stopping you? Amsterdam is not that far from Paris! If we are still restricted it will be postponed, not cancelled. You don't even have to be up to speed, the details (at least in french) say that the BRM delay is purely notional, if you take longer no-one will care provided you have a nice day out!
Simply: I don't have the spoons. My whole life right now is focused on a ride I'm doing in July from Brest to Greece. That is my focus.
For the rest of this post as a straight, white (relatively) able-bodied man (for which I have my parents to thank, not even my choice) and a father (of girls) so at the top of the sexist familial hierarchy I am left wondering what I am meant to do. Do I give up riding with women as "compagnons of fortune" on brevets montagnards (the men generally climb much too quick for me, most women ditto!)? Am I no longer permitted to stop and offer assistance to a cyclist if it's the wrong sex? Am I even banned from going into a cycle shop with one of my daughters in case she asks me for advice (or just an opinion)? Where does it all stop? I can't even ask my wife for advice, she thinks that the sofa and the internal combustion engine are God's gifts and the bicycle is the work of Stan and I know where to put it! Only thing left to do - go for a ride, alone!
I believe it's been said else where, but put simply: Just don't be a dick. If you see someone being a dick, call it out. Men get away with being shits because men let them get away with it. Men aren't scared that I'll tell them to fuck off when they direct a micro aggression at me. But if the man next to me calls them out, that puts the fear in them.
There's such a thing as being a good ally. And the best thing every man can do, is be a good ally. If men are unsure what to do, Julie S Lalonde is doing free online bystander intervention courses at the moment. They take an hour, maybe something can be learned.
I am left wondering what I am meant to do.
Don't be a dick.
Yep, That's pretty much it.
You personally might not be (I can't find a quote) but by telling people that if they "are not part of the solution they are part of the problem" or something along those lines, that accusation makes it at least partly about them.
If you are going to accuse people of being sexist when they haven't actually done anything sexist then it is about them because they are naturally going to take exception to that accusation.
Then perhaps try to do something about the men it is about... Be a good ally, don't be a dick. The bar is low.
That does not surprise me at all. Flower arranging, like make up and clothes design, is precisely the kind of thing which is mostly done by women at an amateur level but where the professionals would be men. Cooking is no longer quite the cannonical example of this, as it seems less and less uncommon for men to cook at home.
There's a strong history of this sort of thing. Traditionally weaving was a woman's job, it was slow, and laborious and done on a warp weighted loom. Then the horizontal two bar loom was invented, and productivity increased, at this point it became possible for one person to make enough cloth to support a whole family, and thus weaving changed from being a woman's job, to being a mans.
I am not familiar with the model but that is my inference about what these terms mean. "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem," means that if you are in a role other than the Victim, and it's not Defender, then you are part of the problem. In other words, not being a bully is not enough. Not exhibiting sexist behaviour is not enough. You also have to challenge sexist behaviour in others, because the kinds of men who exhibit sexist behaviours don't change when challenged by women.
If a woman is on a bike ride with 50 men, and all 50 of them are sexist/exhibit sexist behaviour, that is a huge problem.
If a women is on a bike ride with 50 men and only one of them is sexist/exhibits sexist behaviour, and the other 49 do nothing about it, therefore tacitly accepting that behaviour as appropriate for their peer group, that is also a problem.
I don't think I can be any clearer than that.
That's it. That's the message. What Ravenbait says. Every word of it. Nail. Head.
J
*Sorry, I had to say it...
